Wednesday, December 13, 2006

America's Founding Avatars: Back to the Future (with updates from mankind's progressive past)

To review: in the perspective of Integral Politics, the first variable to be considered is whether the internal or the external are to be emphasized. People on the Left look to the external world as the source of their difficultues, so all of their solutions and policies reflect this victim mindset. Those on the Right are “internalists” who regard the source of suffering as primarily coming from within. As such, their policies will reflect this stance - -self-reliance, self-improvement, the cultivation of virtue, etc.

The second variable to be considered in Integral Politics “involves the levels themselves: what general level of development is the political party or movement coming from, emphasizing, or acting from?”

The question I have is whether any of any of this integral theorizing of about human nature and the role of the state is in any way superior to what America’s founders already worked out some 225 years ago. I cannot see any advantage whatsoever. In my view, the founders combined timeless truths about human nature with a deep understanding of the dynamics of progress, both material and spiritual, collective and individual. Clearly, they regarded the individual as sacrosanct, and I do not regard any form of leftist collectivism as developmentally “higher” than classical liberalism. More often than not, it is a regressive move backward, dictated by the desire for maternal comfort and security. Occasionally they are on the right side of history --e.g., the civil rights movement -- but not because of any respect for indvidual interiors. In fact, for the past 40 years the left has been the regressive defender of racial discrimination and ethnic and gender spoils.

Perhaps one of the differences between the integral movement and the American experiment is that the former seems to be steeped in Buddhist metaphysics, while the American founders could only have come from a Judeo-Christian perspective that regards the interior and exterior as equally real and valuable. America’s founders, although liberal -- again, classically liberal -- were in no way analogous to modern day “flatland” secular liberals who deny interiors, blame society for their problems, and need a large federal government to help them get through life.

As John Adams wrote, “I always consider the settlement of America with reverence and wonder, as the opening of a grand scene and design in Providence for the illumination of the ignorant, and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the earth.” In other words, at its core, America is all about the possibility of interior evolution. This has been its very purpose from the start. Leftists have perverted that purpose and taken America further away from its founding ideals and principles. Should they ever prevail, they would eliminate the very idea of America, that “last best hope of earth.”

As I have mentioned before, human beings have a horizontal aspect that develops and changes through time, and is largely conditioned by the environment. However, they also have a vertical nature which it is the purpose of life to actualize or “realize” in the horizontal. You might say that we have a genetic blueprint (the horizontal) and a divine blueprint (the vertical). This is a distinction of which the founders were fully aware. For example, Alexander Hamilton wrote that “The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.” Does this vertical awareness sound anything like a contemporary leftist liberal? Hardly. One cannot imagine Howard Dean making such a statement, while George Bush has made any number of statements that parallel the words of Hamilton.

From the start, America’s founders believed they had forged a new compact with God, in exactly the same way the ancient Hebrews had. They were fully conscious of being chosen for a divine evolutionary mission. In his second inaugural address, Jefferson pleaded for the assistance of “that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them” in this new world. This goes completely against modern secular myths that suggest that America was somehow set up to protect us from religion -- from the great interior.

One scholar undertook the task of counting the citations found among the writings of the founders. Of 3,154 references, nearly 1,100 of them -- 34 percent -- are to the Bible. Nothing else comes close.

Like the ancient Jews, America's founders regarded time as linear and progressive, not cyclical. But the operative word is progressive. They did not, like the modern progressive, regard time as linear and going nowhere except toward increasing materialism and collectivism. Rather, as Michael Novak writes, the founders “believed history had a beginning and was guided by Providence for a purpose.... Time was created for the unfolding of human liberty, for human emancipation.” Again, the purposes of time and history were not merely for exterior emancipation but, more importantly, interior emancipation. Or, one might say that the purpose of exterior liberty was for the purpose of interior, vertical development, so that history becomes “a record of progress (or decline), measured by permanent standards, God’s standards...” (Novak).

As Novak notes, “Without this metaphysical background, the founding generation of Americans would have had little heart for the War of Independence. They would have had no ground for believing that their seemingly unlawful rebellion actually fulfilled the will of God -- and suited the laws of nature and nature’s God.” But the founders, in the words of the Declaration of Independence, specifically appealed “to the Supreme Judge of the world for the Rectitude of our Intentions.”

Modern secular liberals often cite the words of Jefferson or Franklin to support their erroneous ideas about the founding of America, but, as Novak writes, “the greatest of all American historians, Gordon Wood.... has not found a single atheist during the Founding period (not even Tom Paine), and certainly not among the Founders. Second, he finds even the least religious of the Founders considerably more religious than the average professor at American universities today. Ours is a far, far more secular age, our leaders and our people are far more ignorant of religious ideas. Third, he finds that Jefferson -- the Founder most attended to today -- was an outlier among the Founders.”

In that same article, Novak cites a letter written by Benjamin Franklin, who, like Jefferson, was one of the least orthodox of the founders. And yet, he wrote that “I believe in one God, creator of the universe. That he governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.”

Even Thomas Paine -- whom many mistakenly regard as an atheist -- “was so hostile to atheism that he sailed to France after 1789 to fight against it, holding it responsible for the bloody massacres of the Terror.” This hostility to atheism “was nearly universal in America, on the ground that where there is no omniscient Judge, political power knows no moral check.” Atheism is the exterior philosophy par excellence, completely denying even the possibility of interior evolution.

The founders categorically rejected atheism because it violated all common sense -- and America’s founders were nothing if not common-sensical. As Washington wrote, “Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.” Moreover, as Novak writes, the founders were aware that “a free society demands a higher level of virtue than a tyranny, which no other moral energy has heretofore proven capable of inspiring except Judaism and Christianity.” Novak retraces the simple logic of the founders:

Liberty is the object of the Republic.
Liberty needs virtue.
Virtue among the people is impossible without religion.


Again, I do not see “progressives” as having progressed beyond Washington’s understanding. Since what Washington said is eternally true, one can only deviate from it and move backward, which secular and atheistic ideologies have proved time and again. Keep in mind that dreadful figure -- 200 million souls murdered in the 20th century due to atheistic and anti-Christian ideologies.

Yes, things have not turned out as we might have hoped in Iraq. But the “progressive” left sees our mission there as an entirely ignoble, fundamentally evil enterprise motivated by purely venal interests. They see this because, in their flatland view of the world, this is all they can see. Instead of seeing in George Bush an idealist with flawed execution, they see a greedy and self-interested religious fascist. For the left there is no vertical.

It’s not easy to bring the vertical world of liberty to a resistant hellhole such as the Muslim Middle East. Tocqueville wrote that “Fixed ideas about God and human nature are indispensable to men for the conduct of daily life,” even if these fixed ideals are difficult for most men to reach. But eliminate them, and you descend to the horizontal wasteland of the contemporary leftist liberal. “Democracy,” wrote Tocqueville, “favors the taste for physical pleasures,” i.e., the exterior and the horizontal. But “this taste, if it becomes excessive, soon disposes men to believe that nothing but matter exists.” Thus, the downward pull of secular “progressivism” must be actively countered by each generation anew.

*Unless otherwise indicated, all quotes are from Michael Novak’s On Two Wings: Humble Faith and Common Sense at America’s Founding

*****

UPDATE

The reviews are in from our enlightened green spiritual superiors at an "Integral" website. As you know, the political correctness that suffocates the left is even more pervasive among the hordes of new age moonbats. I must post on why that should be so. In any event, I think I can confidently predict that my days as a new age guru are OVER. Deepak's job is secure in his interior compound. Wayne Dyer can sleep soundly on his vertical pile of moolah:

"I was surprised to see an interview with Robert Godwin in the current issue of What Is Enlightenment?... The interview didn't get too much into politics, so many readers of WIE? will stop by One Cosmos and be blown away by his hatred of all things liberal." [He means leftist, of course.]

"I was really quite surprised to see him in the pages of WIE? I could say a lot of harsh things about him, as I have in the past, but lets leave it at that. I don't see much value in presenting his views in a magazine about enlightenment. Enlightened he is not."

"I think the said Bob is appallingly ignorant even more so when he writes a book titled One Cosmos. His rantings on OneCosmos have no relation whatsoever to the many themes promoted by WIE magazine. None. He is totally embedded in flatland and a full on apologist for the dominant descender/dominator meme.He certainly isnt enlightened nor is there any trace whatsoever of a Heart awakened intelligence in his work. He uses Reagan,Steyn,Novack et al in support of his arguments. Novack & Steyn would be appalled at most of the contents of WIE magazine---an exercise in confused "relativism". They are also both full on apologists for the Pentagon/Capatalist death machine which is grinding everything to rubble. Both humankind and the planetary ecosystems that support life" (sic).

"Gaddag doesn't know Wilber at all. Who could know Wilber and write such drivel? I could cite a dozen incoherencies in the same blog post. AND YET ... it's a useful post because it shows that Wilber's communication style obviously isn't helping him to reach folks like Dagbad."

Let it be said that I am humbled to be mentioned in the same breath as Mark Steyn.... Let it also be said that in the unlikely event that something happens to my brain, whereby my writing somehow becomes popular among these types, any one of you has my permission (assuming Dupree is indisposed) to TOBASH me (Take Out Back And Shoot in Head -- it's a sacred service Cosmic Raccoons perform for one another.)

*****

Hey, it's our very own dashing cosmonautical navalgeezer, BEN:


"This pic was taken a year later aboard my second ship, the USS Duluth (LPD-6). Here I am in my dungarees, by the 02 weather deck railing."

64 Comments:

Blogger LukeBlogWalker said...

Bob said,

[Thus, the downward pull of secular “progressivism” must be actively countered by each generation anew.]

Amen Brudduh!

Or as my friend Paul would say, "Damn Skippy!"

Good stuff today, Bob. (As Ever)

It was mentioned by someone yesterday that the vertical is somwehat static and the horizontal is developmental in some way.

I disagree. If the vertical were static, then a baby could have a quantum leap of some sort, and become spiritual. Yet such things require awareness and understanding not common to a baby.

I think they are both in variations of an evolution, and also, once the vertical growth occurs, become to be at war with one another.

And now, for morning coffee.

-Luke

12/13/2006 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger NoMo said...

“For the left there is no vertical.”

Actually, there is -- it begins at the bottom of the feet and ends at the top of the head. But seriously, the false vertical of the left takes the same false route as the original leftist, Lucifer. Again, I’m brought back to “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is 14:14). If that’s not the most perverted sense of the vertical, what is? Actually, L at least acknowledged the existence of God. Hmmm.

12/13/2006 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger LukeBlogWalker said...

Nice photo!

Kewl.

Ben, you swashbuckler you -where is your parrot and eye patch? ;)

Maybe Ximese can loan you Beaky for a photo?

-Luke

12/13/2006 09:06:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

>>It’s not easy to bring the vertical world of liberty to a resistant hellhole such as the Muslim Middle East<<

Maybe impossible sans some form of colonialism. Yeah, dirty word, that "colonialism", but is there any doubt that India is far better off now than it would have been had it not been colonized by the Brits?

I think a case could be made that there is an overriding moral/spiritual imperative to colonize, in some way, the Mideast - unlike the Hindus of Kipling-era India, today's Islamists have the means to wreak terrible destruction and evil on the civilized world.

Of course, it would be nice if we simply could win them over by example. If we could, I would put forth as an image of American virtue the very image of . . . BEN!

12/13/2006 09:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Alan said...

To leftists, because they only deal on the horizontal, there is a conflict between an individual and collective wills. The only way to achieve the needs of the collective is to subordinate the needs of the individual to the "higher" needs. Given the horizontal nature of their "reality" and lack of an agreed upon reality, force, in all it's manifestations, is the only way to ensure the good of the collective.

However, in Christianity, we have the vertical which allows for the will of the Father to be known by each individual. God has a role for each of us to play in the body of Christ, the communion of saints. It is up to each individual to discover and enact God's will for them and nobody should have any power to impact that. Just like the "invisible hand" of the free market economy, the invisible hand of God in each of our lives when looked at as a whole has created this great idea and manifestation of a country, the USA. By following God's will for our own personal good, the collective good has been ensured. Faith, as an act, was and is central to everything that makes the US the great country it is. The dis-ease of leftism has been steadily eroding the greatness of the US.

Bob talked about the idea of the US as put forward by the founders. Leftists say they are just as much US patriots as those on the right. Unfortunately, while they may be patriotic about the horizontal aspects of the US, they deny the vertical and, hence, really do *not* believe in the US of the founders. If you can't agree with the ideals of the founders for the country (which leftists don't), then you don't believe in the United States of America. You're United States is not my United States.

12/13/2006 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Hey Ben, did you hear that loud high pitched vertual cat-call? That was me, I have tried to learn how to whistle real loud like that in reality and it is quite the challange. What a stud!

12/13/2006 10:12:00 AM  
Anonymous BF Goodrich said...

Speaking of Ben Franklin, he had some excellent thoughts on relationships.

His advice on sex was: "Use venery in moderation and as needed for health."

"Venery" was an 18th century word for sex, derived from the goddess of love,Venus. Oh, for the poetic sensibilities of that era to return today...

After the political discussions are done, I'm hoping that Bob will turn his attention to monogamous relationships in respect to vertical philosophy, an area in which I think readers can immediately use his expertise.

Americans are very much absorbed with their partners and the easiest place to start or boost a vertical movement is in the marital bedchambers.

12/13/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Saw the update. What I like about our "green spiritual superiors" (I like to refer to them as "little green men" -- aliens that they are), is that nothing they do or say surprizes me. Bob, on the other hand, is apparently chock full of surprizes. Just who is actually doing the thinking here?

12/13/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Freemasonry said...

I read the update: Damn, don't you wish those moonbats would get over here and get a proper shredding?

Anyway, I had a question about Freemasonry: Since so many of the founding fathers were Masons, can we assme that Judeo-Christianity is the sole force informing our nation's founder's values?

Are you, Bob, a Freemason?

12/13/2006 11:29:00 AM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

"I read the update: Damn, don't you wish those moonbats would get over here and get a proper shredding?"

Aha!
You have arrived.

12/13/2006 11:39:00 AM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

Free,

Are you, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

12/13/2006 11:41:00 AM  
Anonymous cosanostradamus said...

[As John Adams wrote, “...Should they ever prevail, they would eliminate the very idea of America, that “last best hope of earth.”]

We're lost, as the Firesign Theater now owns the idea of the idea of America...unless we can arrange a corporate takeover of US Plus. Nomo, I assign this responsibility to you. Progress report expected by end of day.

12/13/2006 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Hey, cosa, "In the next world, you're on your own!" FT

12/13/2006 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

I'm no Freemason, I've been told that I am a Jesuit.

Though.. I am not Catholic.

[insert punchline]

I guess that's what I get for being so practical in my intellection.

12/13/2006 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger dicentra63 said...

Nomo:
Again, I’m brought back to “I will make myself like the Most High” (Is 14:14). If that’s not the most perverted sense of the vertical, what is?

In my religious tradition, Lucifer not only wanted to make himself equal with God, he also volunteered to make sure that everyone born on this planet would be saved. Everyone.

Of course, that would require the removal of free will, but who cares? Mortality would become a Utopia where no one ever committed sin, the trains would run on time, and no one would be consigned to hell. Sound good?

A third of the host of heaven thought so, and they joined Lucifer in his exile.

The rest of us were willing to take the risks associated with free will. It would appear that Lucifer hasn't given up trying to establish his "Utopias," though, as the "urge to purge" all the "bad" guys and force everyone else to live in perfect peace and stability tends to emerge every so often.

12/13/2006 12:38:00 PM  
Anonymous GeorgeD said...

Bob, Never you mind about Bob Wilber and all that poofy stuff.

Dicentra63 I think we share a tradition but I prefer to call it a religion.

12/13/2006 01:13:00 PM  
Anonymous GeorgeD said...

I met Ken Wilber. You remember that Barbie prefers GI Joe anyway.

12/13/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Joseph said...

Dicentra,
Who are these hosts of heaven in your tradition?

12/13/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Hmm. Wilby's disciple sounded less like a follower of John and more like a follower of Ron.

Just another excuse to exalt oneself -- while denying the true ways in which one is exalted.

Humility and humor are usual signs of wisdom-- denying the actual intelligence and potential of all human beings is a good way to get to the pride that leads to the fall.

But if its the falling you want, like a spiri-cidal sty-diver- hold the pig and the bungee and just embrace Islam- its the fastest way to the ever-ending chaos of the lower vertical.

And don't bother packing a parachute, you need someplace to land for it to be useful.

Well, I guess when you're so psycho-spiritually 'evolved' that the persistent, consistent nuisance of existence becomes an illusion- an illusion clearly unavailable to those unwashed, primitive amasses, the solution is to lay down your heavy white man's burden and your crack pipe.

Wilberites: Get ovah' yo selves. Its the only way up!

12/13/2006 01:21:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

joseph - If I can speak for dicentra (whose "tradition" I believe I share) -- the hosts are angels.

georged - I actually believe it to be the literal, capital t Truth. Religion can be a lot of stuff. Uh-oh, I may be overexposed.

12/13/2006 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

dicentra -- Oops, upon closer reading of your comments, we're not on the same page -- except for the angels part. Note to self -- pay more attention to detail (for it's there the devil lies).

12/13/2006 02:36:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

All, sorry to clutter up the blogwaves...

Self - just put down the keyboard and walk away...

12/13/2006 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger phil said...

"The reviews are in from our enlightened green spiritual superiors at an "Integral" website."

Can you give a link to that website?

12/13/2006 03:45:00 PM  
Blogger MikeZ said...

I have to wonder why so many on the Left confuse disdain with hatred. Is it because there's no middle ground? Can't I dislike you, just a little, without hating you?

I'm also somewhat relieved to learn that "Integral Politics" is not a mathematics book.

12/13/2006 04:52:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

>>In any event, I think I can confidently predict that my days as a new age guru are OVER<<

Bob, as you know, prophets - the real deal prophets - are not honored in their home town - in your case, this means the planet earth.

It really is kinda lonely at the top. More power to ya, soldier on, the few of us unenlightened hate-mongering, conservative-quoting flatlanders remain loyal.

Anyway, there's an invisible audience/readership out there as well, and THEY know that YOU know that THEY know that YOU know what the shakedown is all about.

12/13/2006 05:01:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

mikez--

Because, since leftism is felt and not thought, they attach "motives" to issues. In other words, they convert thoughts of mine that make them feel bad into malevolent feelings that they imagine I am having. That way, they can dismiss my postions due to my fantasized malevolence. They do it with all conservatives. Assigning a color to ideas that frighten you is much easier than thinking.

12/13/2006 05:05:00 PM  
Anonymous walt said...

Seems fabulous: that we live in a time when so much re "enlightenment" is available/accessible.

Seems sad (to me): so much that is done "in its name."

Seems like cool, clear water: this site, almost always.

12/13/2006 05:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Sal said...

mikez -
This ties in with the standards to which conservatives are held: if it's not perfection, then it's abject failure.

And nothing is ever enough - the case of the everlastingly moving goal posts.

If you work in the local food pantry, don't you care about world-wide hunger?

If you buy a cow for someone in Ghana, don't you care about your own communitiy?

If you do both - well, then what about AIDS? Homelessness? Literacy?
Animal rights?

Ignore, and go on about your business.

Wonderful post, Bob. Saving and filing under "America, greatness of" for the babies's future education.

12/13/2006 05:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I posted this at Integral Options Cafe. Maybe it will change some minds.

"For supposedly integral thinkers, you guys can sure be pretty narrow-sighted.

Bob and Ken are merely drawing different maps of the same territory. Ken from the botom up, and Bob from the top down.

Bob interprets reality from a stance of Absolute Truth. He starts with universal absolutes and looks at their relative manifestations.

He maps reality based on how closely an experience corresponds with Absolute prototypes and archetypes. His thinking is quite similar to (and heavily influenced by) Christian Hermeticism and The Zohar.

Wilber on the other hand, approaches the same reality and the same truth from the opposite direction. Ken gathers all the available information, explains how the puzzle pieces fit together, and comes up with a transcendent model of Reality.

To simplify, Bob looks at the whole to explain the parts, whereas Ken assembles the parts to expose the whole.

There are dangers with both of these models.

Ken's model of reality is built up from all available informational components. But a lot of information is incomplete or blatantly false. This "bad" information is indeed an important piece of the total puzzle, but only insofar as it points away from itself and towards the Truth.

Bob's top down model is after all, just a model, and all models will be flawed in respect to Absolute Truth. While the Truths Bob points to are timeless and unchanging, they are corrupted when used to describe the relative world in which we live. This is the fault in Bob's method. Absolute Truths cannot adequately explain their reflections. They can only show how far the reflections actually are from the prototype. (Bob will readily concede this, I'm sure)

So please, you supposedly "integral" thinkers, don't be so dismissive of Bob and his arguments. His philosophy should be embraced by any truly integral thinker.

You misinterpret his stance because it comes from the opposite direction of Wilber's. Bob is dealing with cosmic absolutes and using those absolutes to explain our world. This is why it seems so harsh and one-sided to you. Because he speaks from Total, Unchanging Eternal Absolute Truth.

Bob sees Truth more clearly than any I have ever encountered. Don't be offput by the certainty and boldness that flows from his genuine realization."

12/13/2006 06:17:00 PM  
Anonymous PsychoPrincess said...

RIVER C: All Greenies & Weenies, Preenies & Teenies keep the Humor but ditch the Humility since it tastes painful & bitter to them. Some of them have no humility to ditch.

Wimps Whine but still dont have Courage til they Shut up & Put up Their Pressshhhhhus Self as Paul tells us to die to self instead of being foolish rebels as he once was.

Humor is EZEE-PZEE for them as they dont usually have Humility in the 1st place & have low tolerance for it but High Tolerance for Pride. Their constant Hypocrisy & Apostasy-Incognito amongst our own Peeps is No Joke. Humor is their calling card they use as a Badge of Sophistication to rightfully mingle amongst Us & to pass as One of Us. We know they arent Us. Theres where the Trubble w/Tribbles starts.

Humor they may have, but its painfully obvious they lack the Sanity of Humility. They also lack Wisdom & Balance - Vertical character qualities.

Those in denial deny they have Arrogance - The Uber-Calvinists cry "No sins to submit since we've been forgiven" is just 1 of their many convenient grandiose Twisted-Truth-As-Lie.

All Christians need not only Justification / Salvation but also on-going Daily Submitted Sanctificational Growth with HolySpirit. W/O it they stay Hypocrits & further spiritually deteriorate into Apostates as they spiral spiritually down the Vertical negativa until Death & Damnation.

Yes, many are quite humorous. But their spiritual demise is no joke, and those further up the True Vertical have much compassion for the ones on the lower (wrong path) as ObiWan pitied Anaken yet agreed to mentor him. How funny will their Apostasy be to them on JDay? Its not even funny now as they court Insanity, Death & Loss of Salvation despite their humor & sophistry. I weep for them in their willfully chosen spiritual bondage. I confront them. I invite them to the Cross into REAL relationship w/Christ. Then I get caca thrown at me, LOL!

Not too brite nor a smoove move for those who constantly point out their "supposed" intelligence." Mans intelligentsia sux; Gods Wisdom Rules. The difference between Elves of the Light & Dark Elves - People of the Light Vs People of the Lie...is self submitted to God vs self that decides to "be god." Same ole lie.

Posers are Fearful & hide it, but not Fearful enuf to Live Life Naked on Gods terms, be they Unsaveds or Saveds. Usurpers take but dont give their ghost in the machine Up to God even when fully confronted w/the Cross. They hate Accountability, hence they shun the very relational intimacy they truly hunger & starve for. They came to be a Christian to get just that - yet they will not make the final leap into crucifixion of self since they prefer pleasure to pain.

They rage & are angry & know they are angry, but cleverly cover it up & refuse to face the Refiners Fire in this Spiritual Cold War.

Hmmmmmm....Princess says:
"Sounds Like Christian.
Looks Like Christian.
Talks Like Christian -
But It Aint Christian -
ts COUNTERFEIT Christian when it Denies Submitting to The Authority of Christ. (Heb6:4-10.) Get Real, Posers & Pull your heads out & climb up the Vertical Cross.

Or, sure, you can always stay in Platos cave philosophizing ad-nauseum until Jesus comes back & True Condemnation finally claims you.

Such a little concept as Submission of Self elicits TNT-reactions from them & just burns up Hypocrits. Oh How they HATE IT! LOL! When confronted to face Submission Choice, their usual Bloviating Bull**it is exposed exactly for what it is - more CaCa.

Their navel-gazing becomes Caca-Ego-Enamoration hence Poopydiaper Art results. They leave their droppings for others to clean up - also the mark of Sociopathy.

What makes a Believer True or Fake?
Hehehe...James 4:7-10 knows. Make sure you do too.

Forget focusing on these -ISMS for just a day. Thats navel-gazing & evil loves to gaze at Itself. Look Up. Anyone embracing Pride & NOT dying to self descends into the Insanity Spiral. So the only sensible way to go is Up.

Lucifers crosses are always UPside down, not Rightside Up. He needs a GPS apparently as he & his minions STILL havent had the spiritual insight (Wisdom) to learn which Way is Up.

Seriously, they KNOW which Way is Up but when confronted w/Truth they do everything BUT Submit to Truth. 2yr old tyrantselves rule the roost, not the Spirit they claim to have/serve.

Now we see why a Counterfeits head is Always at the Platos Cave aka Ahole Position - The bottom of the negative vertical direction of the cross is A Hole.

Prideful Pharisee-Alien Counterfeit Christians use any convenient -ISM in a Vain attempt to again cover their Toxic Spiritual Condition with Whitewash - amazing how they end up still looking like "MR YUK" stickers!

The only thing standing between "them" & "us" is the Chasm of Submission of the Will. One Way to Cross It: Die to self. The Cross Reminds HypoPosers whilst they live & breathe they still have a choice to get real & grow up instead of insisting to stay in their Playpen, PigPen, Platos Cave/Cradle.

WEENIES & LOSERS telltale Mark is: They ALWAYS REFUSE & REJECT Submission of Their Own Wills instead of hungrily Embracing & Applying Submission to their self - they dont "put up."

They do not Walk their Talk hence they are counterfeit & chronic hypocrits as opposed to Saints who sin.

Many discourse on Submission for hours. Like Wormwood. Still they ignore Submission as a useful & practical application to apply to self. Hence They cant Rise Up The Vertical, only comment on it. It makes them feel less lonely & terrfied to think they are on Our level & walk w/Us behind the Veil. But its a lie.

Until they squarely face their own psychopathy & narcissistic self & commit to doing so regularly via Regular Elimination of their Spiritual Caca, then they serve only satan.

Civil war within the Body that is results is No Joke - but its here due to Tares stoopidly refusing to grow into Wheat. Insanity is to agree to Be a Believer/Christian & then refuse to move forward - as Cain also refused.

Hypocrits become Rotten Grain - have you ever smelled Rotten Grain? The stench is unique & unforgettable.

If Submission is truly "no threat" to them - why do they turn pukey Green & indignant Red when confronted on Submission of Self?? Watch the Fireworks Fly then.

True Vertical/Horiz (Balanced) Christianity does not produce psychopathy, but gives one a Sound Mind & Wisdom & Spiritual Maturity.

And Right Judgment is gained - some of us will Judge us on Jday, so here is our training ground in this Spiritual Civil War.

A Counterfeits Mark: Aversion of Application of Submission immediately exposes them as Frauds, if their Spiritual Stink doesnt run you outta the church first. Ad hominem attacks (Humor turned into a weapon) are then all Counterfeits can sling in return - hence they expose their Caca-polluted pride-poisoined self yet again over God.

Ironically Funny how the Pride they seek to Hide always Busts them.

The Cross, The Word, The Spirit in us all testify to Submission of the Will which exposes Evil naturally. A Pharisees fur flies in the face of Refiners Fire! Prophets KNOW about Greenies, Meanies, Weenies & Posers. They've faced & encountered them within their own self often enuf - but chose to Apply on-going submission of self to Christ (& still do!) to burn the caca out as much as needed and as HS directs/leads. True Prophets Speak with the Lords Voice & never once miss the Mark, for their Eyes are Trained on the Cross Always, internally & externally, Vertically & Horizontally. Markmanship is a Mark (Fruit) of Vertical Relationship w/God.

Christian Sniper, indeed Bob!! LOVE that guy from Saving Private Ryan!! Such w/real Christian-sniper-ability are among Us. Those who envy such ability yet have none are also among us here, so be ye on guard. When you find a Counterfeit, invite them to the Cross; also be ready to be attacked when they are cornered w/the very Truth they love to manipulate. Truth is what they Fear & war against & what they hate us to have & wield well. A Knight of the Cross exposes the fool within, Christ transforms it, and the Knight goes out to expose the Fool in others in the world, to also invite them to the Cross, or to Battle.

"The Fool hath said in his Heart (Will): "I...Will...Not...break..."

Two Thieves on the Cross - One Repented, the Other held to his snideful prideful self & rebellion - WHICH ONE was with Christ? Gods Truth invites Submssion & Love relationship AND also Repells & Rejects Posers (Matthew7/17).

Hence Lefties create their own myriad --ISMS mirroring Christianity as Evil is all to happy to churn out ReligionISM ad-NauseISM.

Spiritual Pigs never repent, they only sling poop, then run over the edge into Death as they follow their delusions & doctrines of demons in their Fools pride. Whatta way to go!

Its Mystical Up The Vertical, but as Clouds clear, Your Sight is sharpened to Crystal for a time & Wisdom Grows. I thank Him for knowing darkly but well the Truth I glean from climbing up the Vertical. I'm glad I choose to Go With God & Godly Peeps. I'm glad I submit my self to Him & have Left insanity of self-as-god behind.

"Choose this Day whom You will serve...as for Me and My House..." WE Walk the Walk not Talk the Talk.

Many men tolerate Moral stagnation from Cradle to Grave, unless there is ACTIVE APPLIED LIVING Transformation of Self via on-going Sanctification in Him (Vertical Spiritual Dev.)

Mysticism stumps them - they dunno whats beyond & cant talk sophisticatedly on what they cant mimic or imitate & dont know. Narcissists are often great mimics BTW.

GREENIES - See Integrals website! UGH
MEANIES - Abusers w/o Mercy+Empathy
PREENIES - Addicted to Pride/Ego/self
PANSIES & TEENIES: Adult-Tyrant-Brats demanding to stay age 2-15 Forever
WEENIES - Bloviators who never practice what they preach & philosoph.
POSERS - Claim 2B Christian but who never Submit Ego nor feel pain of Refiners Fire.
GNOSERS - Those claiming 2B Christian but its a legend in their own mind.
WHITIES - Pharisee Gnostics (Christian Gnostics).

It doesnt matter to Lucifer what kind of AHOLE one is - ones just as good as another (Egalitarianism - no problem in the DarkKingdom). He PREFERS Christian ones! Just as long as you dont repent/submit or actually APPLY the Cross or Truth to your ego/self, then you're "in" Lucifers Clique.

Small Print: Automatic Enrollment for Justified Christians who CHRONICALLY refuse to repent & do not gain Spiritual Maturity.

Those whining about necessity of Spiritual Maturity yet who refuse to Apply Truth to self are so totally BUSTED & Spiritually Bankrupt are Annoying to those of us who arent (The Humble & Humorous, RiverC speaks of.)

Kudos to those of You who do not hide & pose & pretend, but have the Courage of your Convictions to face self, who Break & Take Ego to the mattress in True Submission to Christ & HS.

Courage gains you Vertical Fruits called Wisdom & Right Judgment skills, as Proverbs commands us to have.

Submitted personal relationship to God via Sanctificational Growth Marks the Intersection of the Vertical & Horizontal & is the Foundation for Right Relationship w/God. After that, you grow into Right Relationship w/Godly others. Jesus said I am the Way - He didnt say mans way gains vertical skill, did He? God dont play dat way, yo.

The Vertical & Horizontal can be analyzed Ad-infinitum by Gnosers - but Submission of the Will/self (which the Cross symbolizes) still stands in the Pharisee-Whities Face - to do or not to do, to evidence Submission's Fruit or Not. THAT is the question demanding Your Answer. No Analysis needed. Just your Yes or No.
"Do or do not..there is no try." Yoda-

Bloviators need to put up; or shut up and stop camping out here & in our Churches. *Sigh* They're everywhere.

Transformation is gained in the Eye of the Storm / Needle / Altar / Cross / RefinersFire / HolySpirit - HE IS The Word & The Cross & The Way. Serve Him not self.

Those who dont evidence Spiritual Transformation - you know who you are. We do, too. We See You. Christ taught us to SEE when we did the same & Transformed our Vision in us - just as He does for all Believers Submitted to Him. We are committed to put away childish things & foolish ways in on-going relationship w/Him & one another.

We have Assertive Humility & Marksman Ability to call you on your sin & still invite you to also drop your egos & come dine at the Kings Table in rich relationship w/Him...and Us, in Brotherhood - not utopia - but in orderly Godly conduct & Functional Relationship.

If this offer is not to your liking, then ask Your self: Do you like being on the dysfunctional deluded side with the donkeys & pigs in the pigpen?

Speaking of which --

LUKE BLOG-TALKER: Lets see if You choose to rise up the Vertical you Claim to know. When was the last time you faced your pride & took active applied Victory in Christ over it? Talk is Cheap. Many here read between the lines & see much you dont admit. I have My Fathers Eyes. While mine often miss, My Fathers Do Not. So lets see if you have 1/2 the Chutzpah you claim - Tell us of your transformational experiences & what its taught you spiritually in Christ. Demonstrate the Vertical you claim to have.

Its your choice to Come Out, Be Honest. Or stay in your pigpen / playpen. You so charitabley dismissed Anonymous back to his sandbox. Least hes graduated to the sandbox not still in the cradle - least he left the crib you refuse to leave. Perhaps its your life thats an example of Cradle to Grave "living" that you should be concerned with?

Walk the Walk you Talk. Surely thats not unreasonable is it?

Get peeved when your busted. Take it like a Man & Get Ye Humble. Tend to ur ego at hand instead of blaming others for what you are guilty of doing. Stop yanking Gods chain & ours with philosophizing talkie talkie that lacks practical application. You couldnt even digest the Nugget o Truth pointed out on your lack of compassion in your exchange w/Anon. Your posts tell the Truth on You. Dont gripe if others see whats there. You arent a Victim; but neither are you a Victor yet. There is no "in-between." Both feet or none. Head, Heart & Will submitted or why bother to claim to be Christian?

Congrats to the Lady who Saw it & called you on it. Markmanship well done. Will your Pride suffer being Exposed/Outdone not only by One lady but by Two??

Dont be a Hater, we arent, & tho you think (fear) "we know it all" some know much more than you snippantly give them credit for. You're envious & uncharitable to them. Becuz you hate & covet what they have that you dont have. Careful, your green might show.

"Only the Fool says in his heart..." Refuse to be A Fool. Be a Saint who sins, who Willingly Humbley takes full responsibility for it. Should be easy to rise to this challenge if you are practiced in the Truths you claim.

Iron sharpens Iron - but it also slices thru thin metal/mettle.

Courage or cowardice? Which way will you choose? Which way do any of us choose after hashing it all out?

Anyone reading, please feel free to do a Scholarly Biblical search on Submission of WIll/Mind/Heart, Repentance, Brokenness, Dying to Self & Transformation-in-Christ. Search ALL verse refs & also for their opposite attributes to compare & contrast. Then Please get back w/me w/your Experience of it, love to hear.

Am always Happy to Talk Transformation as so few actually Apply it. My caseload is usually filled with opposite types. Foundational Functional Spirituality is quite a relief to speak on from the usual Dysfunctional & Delusional PsychoSpiritual poison te deum de rigeur.

Welcome to "Via Transformativa."

I Pray & Hope all who claim the Name of Christ APPLY His Truths to their self & put self on His Altar/Cross. Its WORTH it - if you had any clear idea of the Treasures you gain beyond (up the Vertical) you would put down your trinkets & toys & trust God w/your ego you insist to protect. You'd never pick them up again...or else you'd return to your vomit as Proverbs says Dogs do.

The message of the Bible is not only to "Get Saved" but to have Rich Functional Fulfilling Relationship in Him & with Godly others. Brotherhood & Community - not utopia, but at least Functional & Spiritually Vertical in development & Growth.

Either you are part of it all the way or not at all. Dont make the vain choice 1/2-assed Donkeys make - one hoof in, 3 hoofs out. Jump in with commitment on both feet & see you hold nothing back from God - You'll know the Vertical & Grow in it fully, not just be stuck waxing philosophic about it from the outside looking Up. BE IN HIM not self. Self Sux. God Rocks! Enuf said.

~ PsychoPrincess ~

12/13/2006 06:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I posted this at Integral Options Cafe. Maybe it will change some minds.

"For supposedly integral thinkers, you guys can sure be pretty narrow-sighted.

Bob and Ken are merely drawing different maps of the same territory. Ken from the botom up, and Bob from the top down.

Bob interprets reality from a stance of Absolute Truth. He starts with universal absolutes and looks at their relative manifestations.

He maps reality based on how closely an experience corresponds with Absolute prototypes and archetypes. His thinking is quite similar to (and heavily influenced by) Christian Hermeticism and The Zohar.

Wilber on the other hand, approaches the same reality and the same truth from the opposite direction. Ken gathers all the available information, explains how the puzzle pieces fit together, and comes up with a transcendent model of Reality.

To simplify, Bob looks at the whole to explain the parts, whereas Ken assembles the parts to expose the whole.

There are dangers with both of these models.

Ken's model of reality is built up from all available informational components. But a lot of information is incomplete or blatantly false. This "bad" information is indeed an important piece of the total puzzle, but only insofar as it points away from itself and towards the Truth.

Bob's top down model is after all, just a model, and all models will be flawed in respect to Absolute Truth. While the Truths Bob points to are timeless and unchanging, they are corrupted when used to describe the relative world in which we live. This is the fault in Bob's method. Absolute Truths cannot adequately explain their reflections. They can only show how far the reflections actually are from the prototype. (Bob will readily concede this, I'm sure)

So please, you supposedly "integral" thinkers, don't be so dismissive of Bob and his arguments. His philosophy should be embraced by any truly integral thinker.

You misinterpret his stance because it comes from the opposite direction of Wilber's. Bob is dealing with cosmic absolutes and using those absolutes to explain our world. This is why it seems so harsh and one-sided to you. Because he speaks from Total, Unchanging Eternal Absolute Truth.

Bob sees Truth more clearly than any I have ever encountered. Don't be offput by the certainty and boldness that flows from his genuine realization."

12/13/2006 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Gagdad said..."The question I have is whether any of any of this integral theorizing of about human nature and the role of the state is in any way superior to what America’s founders already worked out some 225 years ago. I cannot see any advantage whatsoever. In my view, the founders combined timeless truths about human nature with a deep understanding of the dynamics of progress, both material and spiritual, collective and individual. Clearly, they regarded the individual as sacrosanct, and I do not regard any form of leftist collectivism as developmentally “higher” than classical liberalism. More often than not, it is a regressive move backward, dictated by the desire for maternal comfort and security."

I couldn't have said it better myself (I know that because I tried!), Another top notch post!

Gotta love the little green men though, no one else is gonna - especially themselves.

Ben! What Will said! (How long ago was that?)

12/13/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Anonymous PsychoPrincess said...

GAGDAD BOB Said: "...since Leftism is felt not thought they attach "motives" to issues. In other words, they convert thoughts of mine that make then feel bad into malevolent feelings they imagine I'm having..."

Perfectly said Bob. I really needed to hear that. Oh How I understand the phenom of projection. Yet I observe its not only Lefties or Clients who project - its also done by spiritually immature others here in our own Camps & Churches when they "dont like" what someone has to say, and usually when you hit their hiding places dead on target.

Hence caca-slinging ensues & they dismiss valid issues & fail to respond & ignore them. Can we say "Tantrum"? Funny but sad to see people at age 50 doing it.

Chronic Projection Ad-nauseum is the INSANITY & Dysfunctional way they choose to live & relate from. They can nod the head all they want as they kiss up to others they "admire"; but in the end their hidden leftie-ways get exposed - becuz they hide rather than expose their sin as they're kissing boot. THEN WATCH OUT - you're on their poop-list & all the sudden they treat you like the enemy & the disdain & cleverly veiled contempt finally come out. Such is the putrescence of Black/White thinking & being with no shades of Grey or Color in their spiritual spectrums.

Such people USE others to surround themself with Spiritual Shields & hide within the fortificatioin - they feel they belong & are special with the powerful people group, insulated & safe - reminiscent of the womb they crave but refuse to grieve the loss of.

Lets not enable shall we? Matthew would agree to attemptt to boldy & firmly confront these spiritual lepers - for they need God in the worst way; but if they turn out to be Cylons on us, oh well, each must be responsible & accountable for their choices. Hence I say: Put up or shut up at the Cross IN the Refiners Fire.

I only listen to the ones who come out the other side & gain the Vertical.

"My Sheep know My Voice...and follow it." Only one Leper came back...may that Leper always be me, bowed at His Feet, tears flowing, embracing the Cross, broken on Him, as He Touches me, Lifts My Head Crowned in His Glory Up the Vertical thru the days of My Life as I serve Him not self.

- PsychoPrincess -

Thank you, my frienz & espec our fearless funnyman Gagdad Bob - seeing you Lead Point encourages me forward/upward when I most want to quit. LOL where would I go anyway? We all pursue this particular dev. growth & journey becuz its in our bloods & Spirits and for us there is no other viable road to choose.

"If You're going to choose a delusion to follow it should at least be the one thats the most sane." We've found that - now what remains is how to Live it, Apply it, "Make It Work" so to speak and appreciate its growth & beauty. So too, the Christians before us had such love, so much they willingly died for their Beliefs. They did not quit. So say we all, I hope. Real Believers, anyway.

LUKE BW Said: "...the Vertical is somewhat static and the horizontal is developmental in some way..."

Do not try to understand first, Luke. Just Do. Go there. Then You Will Know and gain actual experience, instead of mystified confusion.

- PsychoPrincess -

12/13/2006 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

anonymous--

I like that. Food for thought.

12/13/2006 06:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A dear unknown friend said:

"To perceive and to know, to try and to be able to, are all different things. There are mirages above, as there are mirages below; you only know that which is verified by the agreement of all forms of experience in its totality - experience of the senses, moral experience, psychic experience, the collective experience of other seekers for the truth, and finally the experience of those whose knowing merits the title of wisdom and whose striving has been crowned by the title of saint. Academia and the Church stipulate methodical and moral conditions for one who desires to progress. Carry them out strictly, before and after each flight into the region beyond the domain of work and effort. If you do this, you will be a sage and a mage. If you do not do this - you will only be a charlatan!

12/13/2006 06:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Joan of Argghh! said...

nomo-

Just... !

:0)

12/13/2006 07:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to clarify why I posted those words from my unknown friend:

Wilber gets at Truth, and categorizes various developmental levels of Truth, by finding agreement between the manifestations of Truth in each of his 4 quadrants. He sees the Divine Truth refracted through the lenses of material, psychological and cultural development.

His model is above all else, developmental. Wilber looks at slices of reality and fits them into a quadrant and a developmental level. The developmental level is a vertical axis. The quadrant is a horizontal classification. All the historical archetypes manifest accrodingly in each of these quadrants.

Bob, as I've said before, approaches our journey from the opposite direction. He has been blessed with a clear knowledge of Absolute Truth. Consequently, he stresses the methodical and moral conditions necessary to get us to see what he sees.

Bob is accutely aware of how easy it is to deviate from the Path of Truth, to be ensnared by the mirages. Hence his emphasis on the very real dangers of illiberalism and new-age spiritual fluff.

Bob's philosophy is protecting us from becoming like the charlatans.

And while Wilber may be a sage and a mage, many of his moonbat followers are clearly charlatans.

That is why Bob is so valuable. Without a foundation in Absolute Truth, integral development degrades into regression.

But Wilber's theories, properly understood, are A VERTICAL DEVELOPMENTAL AXIS.

Wilber emphasizes the integral stage of this development, because it is the leading edge of cultural development today. But this stage is still only half way up the vertical ladder. It is still far removed from absolute truth.

And that is my problem with Wilber. He stops half way, and without a grounding in ABsolute Truth, his theories are highly suceptible to corruption.

12/13/2006 07:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And to clarify what "integral" means, because it has been misused often:

The integral point of view means: to form a vision of the Truth by examining all points of its manifestation in the horizontal quadrants (culture, psychology, complex systems, the external material world).

Within each of these quadrants there is a vertical developmental axis.

Bob does this on a daily basis. He effortlessly experiences the world in this way. Because he is so grounded in the Absolute, he cannot but see its manifestation in the relative.

So don't knock "integral theory" just because a lot of moonbat leftist have hijacked it for their own purposes.

The leftists warped and twisted classical liberal values in the exact same way.

Of course, don't elevate integral theory to the level of the ABsolute either. It is far from that.

But it is a handy and comprehensive model to help understand relative existence.

12/13/2006 07:47:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Anonymous--

Interesting. What you are saying is perhaps why some people might regard me as "fascistic," when in reality I am merely a harmless intolerant absolutist.

12/13/2006 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

That was a joke, by the way. I like your point. Then again, I really don't see myself as coming from the perspective of the absolute in the uncompromising way that, say, Krishnamurti or Ramana Maharshi did. I see it more as coming from the perspective of wholeness, which by definition includes and embraces the relative.

12/13/2006 08:08:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

O --> k, in other words. Not O, not k, and not k --> O

12/13/2006 08:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And finally in reference to "Integral Politics"

Through his character Charles, Wilber is classifying the vertical developmental levels of progression within the horizontal sphere of politics, which is a sub-group within the "exterior collective" or cultural quadrant.

He is not making value judgements about the political philosophies which arise from these levels. He is showing how political thought can progress along a vertical developmental axis.

Part of this model is explaining where pathological development can happen. Wilber considers illiberal leftism to be a pathological manifestation of a very specific level of development.

Now, I don't necessarily like some of the levels or the ordering (or the color scheme) that Wilber chose for his developmental levels.

But vertical growth is without a doubt A DEVELOPMENTAL PROCESS. And there certainly exists UNIFORM STAGES THROUGH WHICH ALL INDIVIDUALS, CULTURES AND SYSTEMS PROGRESS.

Unfortunately, like every other decent theory proposed in the last 44 years, the moonbats find a way to hijack it.

But that does not mean that Ken is one of them. He's just making the maps.

12/13/2006 08:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, your method resonates with me far more than Wilber's. That is because you do approach existence from the perspective of wholeness. You look to see how the whole is reflected in the parts. And you are an expert at pointing out when there are extreme difficiencies in that wholeness.

Ken looks at what the sum of the parts can tell us about the whole. And being a human, he's bound to miss some things. Hence some incomplete models.

The whole point of these rants has been to show that you and Ken are approaching the same Truths from different perspectives.

And because the methods differ, the end results (i.e. the visions of truth) will differ as well.

12/13/2006 08:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, not the end results so much as the manner in which they are conveyed.

12/13/2006 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Man!

P-squared (if you don't mind me callin' you that.)

That is some kind of crazy Christian fusion-- blessing, teaching, singing, preaching--

When you were writing did you hear crazy jazz playing? The Spirit demanded a particularly long playin' time tonight, and I could feel all of those inner voices - altos and tenors of the harmonic pie - ringing like the rocks were cryin' out.

Sometimes I can't find a 'song' and I just play melody with harmony and rhythm until I find a place. I wasn't feeling the hymns so much, though A Rose Ere Blooming kept coming back to my mind.

Isn't that a trip, though? Christ is the rose ere-blooming-- always blooming and reblooming-- and there is something supremely poetic about the line: "When half gone was the night".

Bet you could dive pretty deep in those waters if you wanted.

Night, o beasts who speak!

12/13/2006 08:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So to use (is it Bion's?) language, Wilber pieces together his models of "O" from what he learn from "k."

Can anything about "O" be known through "k?"

Or does it only work the other way around?

It seems like O->k is intellection where k->O is induction and deduction.

12/13/2006 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

anonymous

Yes, that latter statement is exactly right. However, Wilber speaks of having had certain mystical experiences achieved through meditation. Do you suppose he could be talking about states and not traits? These states do not particularly interest me if they cannot manifest in the everyday herebelow. Schuon referred to it as "realizationism," and it seems to me that much of the new age movement revolves around trying to have these "realization" experiences instead of aligning oneself with Truth.

12/13/2006 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In other words, this idea of "mysticism" detached from tradition is a modern deviation. Throughout most of history, none of the great "mystics" thought of themselves as such. Rather, they simply saw themselves as practitioners of their religion. It would never have occurred to Meister Eckhart to say, "hey, I'm a mystic! I'm realized! I'm a superior being!"

12/13/2006 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

psychoprincess speakin' in tongues -- but I understood it. Not so psycho, princess.

joan - I got no mo at da mo ment.

12/13/2006 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Bob - Right! Gotta be "everyday herebelow" for dats where we be...or what's da point?

12/13/2006 09:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Uss ben said...

Outstanding post, Bob!

Our founding fathers are near and dear to my heart, because they had the courage to fight for their God-given Liberty, and they fought for future generations.

That Liberty, Life and pursuit of Happiness is worth fighting...and dying for.

Liberty is the heart of the Absolute Truth that Bob speaks of.

Not long after 9/11,
a Seattle Concilwoman said that nothing is worth dying for, and quite a few leftists have echoed that message of "peace in our time."

The founding fathers held such beliefs beneath contempt!

As Ronald Reagan said:
"A nation without God (Truth/Liberty)
ceases to be a nation."
Parenthesis mine.

If there is nothing worth dying for, then there is nothing worth living for.

People with that mindset have abdicated God's gift of Liberty, and they want to take it away from everyone else as well.

They chose slavery instead of Liberty and lies instead of Truth.

I must confess that I didn't fight for leftists or their insane ideals.
How could I, if they deny the very things that's worth fighting for?

No, I fought for Liberty and Life and for those that cherish it.

Many have died to protect those God-given gifts, and continue to do so.

And many Patriots fight on other battlefields for the same reasons.

Spiritual, metaphysical, cultural, political,
Religion, law, psychological, education, true art,
and even some in the media.

In every facet of America, we all do our part to preserve Life and Liberty by divine Providence.

Except for those who reject it.

They are worse than parasites. Because they choose to destroy Life and Liberty in a variety of ways, framed in nuance and high-brow prigishness of course.

Am I too harsh to speak thus?

Should I coddle those who reject Life and Liberty?
Is that the Christian thing to do?

Did Jesus coddle the pharisees, scribes or moneychangers?

No. Truth, Liberty, Life...is far too valuable to surrender.

Patriots will not allow anyone to take that away,

Not without a fight.

12/13/2006 09:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Aquila said...

USS Ben,

Well put. And thanks for not only your service in defense of this country, but for posting the pic, which puts a human face on the anecdotes you've told here.

12/13/2006 09:44:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

A hearty and sincere thank you to Bob, Petey, Cousin dupree, and all my fellow Bobbleheads, Patriots and seekers of Truth!!!
In the words of Major Pain (formerly Captain B.) of www.onemarinesview
.com/one marines view/

One team, one fight!

A fantastic blog to visit, to read about our many Heroes, past and present.

I would be remiss to leave out Major "Taco" Bell, of sandgram.blogspot
.com

A master storyteller
full of humor.

A special thanks to Commander Jim (aka JimmyJ.), who has guest-blogged at Shrinkwrapped.blogs

All of you are Heroes, Saints and Patriots in my book!

12/13/2006 10:06:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Anonymous said...
"While the Truths Bob points to are timeless and unchanging, they are corrupted when used to describe the relative world in which we live. This is the fault in Bob's method. Absolute Truths cannot adequately explain their reflections. They can only show how far the reflections actually are from the prototype. "

There is much to this. Though I don't go quite so far as to say the timeless and unchanging Truths are corrupted when used to describe the herebelow, at least not directly. I think that the truths are to be sought out, and reflected upon, for the ... (oh I hate to use the word but it's late and the proper one is playing hooky on me) 'harmonizing' of our thoughts, to help in putting things square within our own minds, at which point we are better equipped to apply our minds to the problems of the herebelow.

It is when we attempt to pluck the Timeless and Unchanging Truths from their proper places and apply them directly to the herebelow, that they become distorted... sort of like the Mercator Maps, where cartographers attempt to put an orange peal like cut to the three dimensional globe, so as to make it less distorted in a flat paper map... there are huge gaps between points that are in reality inches away, and still Greenland comes out looking larger than North America. The analogous way would be for the thinker to examine, spin and ponder the globe, become intimately familiar with it, and then sketch out only the necessary areas onto a map in order to get from here to there.

Any attempt to take the horizontal and elevate it to the Vertical Heights, or vice versa, is doomed to distorted, even grotesque, failure.

The point which is so often missed, and even more often desperately avoided, is that WE must be the mediators between the Horizontal and the Vertical. The whole point is not to attempt to cut and paste the Truths onto a patch of the herebelow, the whole point is for us to learn, internalize, know and become the Timeless and Unchanging Truths as best we can, and to bring them (and us) to life through our thoughts and actions here in the herebelow.

12/13/2006 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

USS Ben,
Nope, not too harsh at all, well said.

12/13/2006 10:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Alan said...

USS Ben: Well done.
Van: Most excellent observation about our roles as mediators vertilogically.

12/13/2006 11:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, my whole view of the "realizationism" phenomenon is that higher mystical experiences are oftentimes just "mirages above." But I think a lot of them are clearly genuine as well.

Isn't the goal of spiritual development to turn yourself into a vessel through which these higher mystical experiences can be actualized in the "here below?"

Are not the higher and lower vertical both manifestations of the divine? (albeit unequal in their closeness to Source)

And given the metaphysics of an involutionary/evolutionary cosmos, doesn't it stand to reason that many higher mystical experiences have not yet been actualized in the here below? But that it is nonetheless a worthwhile endeavor to explore those realms that have not yet manifest "down here"?

And Nomo,

If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, it's ok to just listen. It is not necessary to speak like a two-year-old just to show everyone that you are here.

12/14/2006 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

anonymous--

Yes, I'm not minimizing the place of mystical experiences, as I have had my share of them. However, in my experience, the mark of authenticity is a desire to make oneself humbly worthy of this grace, by conforming with truth and virtue. One hestitates to even speak of them, because they mean nothing if they do not lead to real change or real powers in the horizontal. And only others can be the judge of this. One does not exalt oneself.

12/14/2006 07:46:00 AM  
Anonymous f-reed said...

anonymous:
Nomo said a lot. He just praised Psychoprincess. I am sure the Dougman would share this view too.

12/14/2006 08:17:00 AM  
Anonymous PsychoPrincess P2 said...

VAN: Vertilogical Mediators - LUV it!

Sometimes Men have such an Admirable way of "chunkating" things most concisely while losing none of the potency.

NOMO: LOL, Girl, bear w/me as I adjust for a day/2 to being "here" (Still seems so surreal, I'm still lil dizzy) as I've just Hardlanded from a looong tour of duty on the Ugluk Battlefield where I saw few Elves to hook up with. Its a bit of a shock to come here & find such Buffet O Peeps who are NOT braindead & are even Spiritually Alive -- Huh, Whut? NoMore sayin daily, "Hes dead, Jim" as another Orc walks in & plunks down demanding I fix him & I have to break the unfortunate news to him HE will "fix" him self as The Bible says to do w/God. Whut? NoMore goin to SixFlagsOverJeezuz of 5,000 peeps & (unpridefully) fearfully realizin I'm STILL freakin surrounded by Wolves & NOT ONE of my own kind? Egads, the Horrors...I need time to process...(LoL).

Actually, many "process" On-the-Go-with-God instead of at a finite point in Time so our spiritual sewer-systems dont get backed up. Just takes practice & commitment to "flushing".

Am convinced G-Bob's brain does NOT sleep at night, its background is always in On Position as he's Multi-Channel-Minded -- Arent we immensely Blessed by his multi-threading capabilities? He processes On the Go.

The "Psycho" part of my nic is pokin fun @ my self as I am a Counselor of Psychos, so they do all the talkin & pay me 2 keep my mouth mostly shut. Hard to get a word in edgewise with Narcissists. But the Authority I carry via the Spirit is the Princess-position-in-Christ I've grown into knowing, living & being. I teach Identity & Assertive Authority in Christ IS for every Christian to posess & Nevah Surrendah - much like USS BEN speaks of fidelity to Patriotism.

NoMo, please enlighten me on ur own nic - what does "NoMo" mean - other than at 1st read it reminded me of Phil Collins echoing "No More...No More..." at then end of "In The Air Tonight" song. I hate Assumin so I doth Enquire of Thee.

I promise I'll be better in a few days the longer I stay here & read Bob & Ya'll. Feel like Frodo recovering in Rivendell from the Nazgul wound. The skill of the Elves doth work wonders. Will work on Chunkating.

Dicentra63: Right On!! Good observos.

RIVER-C: BIG LOL! ROFL! P2! Thanks for not using the obvious PP (*Grin*). Was listening to Loreena McKennetts "The Mystics Dream" (HEH) & "The Mummers Dance" - Serendipitous given G-Bobs timely comment on Meister Eckhart not knowing he was a Mystic - Luther didnt realize he was one either. Oops - Read that again: Luther didnt know Meister Eckhart was a Mystic; Luther didnt label himself a Mystic tho he may have realized it at some point. He worried often he truly was going insane - but only the Sane wrestle thusly, as truly Insanes deny Insanity in them & have no fear or inkling of it. When they getta clue it terrifies them & they panic & seek to escape it.

Truth is hardcore anathema to ppl whose ego/pride demands to center on escape-artistry ad-nauseum -- but its Life to those whose Fear is "cast out" by their Faith.

I surmise the Humility element keeps a Mystic from realizing theyre more mystic-powerful then they bother to realize. They do realize they are powerful/mystical becuz of the power they wield so easily in the Spirit; becuz of error-free Markmanship thats not merely intellectual but is a unique SpirtuoSynthesis of self w/God that coalescens & lives in their Being; and due to the fact many Mystics spend ALOT of time wrestling with their fears of being insane since they think/do/live/breathe on a Spiritual-Insightful plane (NOT necessarily an Intellectual plane) most are too unfamiliar with & no one really explained to them.

Once they get peace after their wrastlin matches, they are a Tour de Force to behold, much the way a Master or Expert of any discipline works out the kinks & then proceeds to Live n Give the Fullness of their Element. Mystics excel in so many elements its hard to track which 1 is their Best. Ex: Luther: when he came outta the tower after "having it out" royally with the devil, Luther was an Absolute Arrow in the Bow of the Lord that landed not only on the Wittenberg Door but was the Arrow that struck a Death knell to One Mega-Church EVEN AS it gave Birth to Another Paradigm. Death+Resurrection. Multi-threading, indeed.

Note: Luther coalesced & gave birth to a new Theology, Philosophy, Psychology, Ontology, Soteriology, etc. on and on (Creation of Horizontal aspects combined w/Vertical) and the result was a Quantum leap forward in human + spiritual development. So I guess I'm saying Mystics give birth to higher order Divinity in the here & now: They uniquely make the Eternal "tangible" & Applicable and carve "new" paradigms, if not 5 or so in a row - 7 being Spiritual Perfection & Completion.

Chunkating usually terms such people "Rennaissance Men & Women". Also Sage, Prophet/Prophetess, Shaman, Istari (Gandalf), Saint, etc.

True Saints usually prefer Humility over Pride(s). Of course, they largely eschew hubris & in the end it matters not to them so much what ppl call them, but what they can do / birth / give / teach / reach / secure / leave as Spiritual Legacy (Liberty/Love) to spur others Growth in God & "bring" the Eternal to touch the Temporal more than before.

Mystics are often the Change Agents of Spiritual Paradigm-Shifts which leads to other temporal paradigm shifts like a ripple (or tsunami) across a society and nations.

Now, either I'm full o crap, or I obviously know & have sumfink in my posession having the potential to do this very thing - or I would not be able to speak of what I dont know, or only from the Observer position not the Experiential one.

Many Mystics gain skills NewAckers (NewAgers) twist & label as ESP. What Mystics actually gain is a unique Concentration of Spirit in them, Beyond the 6th Sense boundary, a real-time manifestation of what I can only ineptly term a 4-D state of Being (the # indicating World/Change), a unique Coalescence of Apophatic & Kataphatic that intersects, is woven & rooted in Spirit+person as a "Team" (Marriage, Oneness its often called) - which is Beyond Numinous. I'll find G-Bobs words for it soon that describe it better than me.

A Classical Cord of 3 - Thou, Thee & Cross (Nexxus) equals successful integration (Equipoise) of A/K & V/H aspects into a real-time yet also Eternally connected blending of Concrete & Mystical, Temporal & Eternal, Abstract & Orderly in the Mystic/Saint.

I dont actually believe the Divine develops in a person thru TopDown (G-Bobs Stance) or BottomUp/Pieces+Parts (Wilbers stance), but rather the Divine in us develops from Submission of our Wills Relationally w/Him - THAT seems to be the Crucial element that brings successful Transformation & Sanctification to peeps I counsel. I'd say its a combination of G-Bobs & Wilbers stances but with an applicational ambiguous element brought into play that is experiential not intellectual (yet). Call it "healing" if you like. Failure to achieve Brokenness of Will in God (application of Dying to Self concept) promotes lack of transf/sanct.

So what I'm saying is: Submission of Mind or Heart is needful but are not the Keys, in my experience. Submission of ones WILL IS Key, as it matches what Scripture teaches & seems to be the Masterkey over all possible other potential keys, such as Submission of Mind, Submission of Feelings, etc.

Christianity speaks of Submission to God. Islam means "to submit." Judaism speaks of daily life w/God - all 3 great religs in their own way speak of permutations of the same concept of Submission - but all have only pieces+parts not the Whole. Yet. :D

Mystics ooze Complementarianism, hence usually Wisdom (as opposed to Intellectualism) & incredible Balance (Equipoise). A real Prophet is easily told from a False one - but usually only by another real Prophet - the BIble teaches Prophets are subject to Prophets. So, Mystics are subject to Mystics. And Wackos are subject to Wackos, LOL!

Mystics realistically remember they have to "wipe" their backsides the same as everyone else - hence their Observational Humor expands to embrace the incongruities that become "clear" to them which keeps them grounded even as they connect with the Divine more often & longer than others. The Disciples learned & grew in it.

True to typical Saint/Mystic form they sum it up thusly: "Less of self, more of God" for that indeed is their goal. Yet they maintain a certain intimacy with everything here - why not? They are the embodiment of the Horiz & Vert. paradigms & also Spirit Paradigm -- precisely the "Vertilogical Mediators" VAN blessed us with.

Maybe its a Blessing, the Not Knowing one is a Mystic.

Narcissists feel entitled & demand to be viewed as Prophets & Mystics but never make it far enuf outta the playpen to get much above Tyrant 2yr-old. Look at the history of the Caesars - man, the Psychopathy is rampant.

RIVER-C, so sorry it was long again. Will get back to you on the Rose Ere Blooming - you are in for a treat but prepare to wrap your mind around what I'll try to communicate, as Mr Square had to rise above the limits of his prison-perspective to move up & gain a different perspective in order to adequately comprehend the Whole Sphere in Flatland.

ANON: Yes, many Mystical experiences have not yet been actualized here & are worthy to do so. We do not need to "bring the Vertical down to herebelow" nor "bring herebelow up to the Vertical" - WE are not the ones who "Do" it - God IS. THERE is the element we cant "control" or mimic or even know as its ambiguous/vertical. But it exists nonetheless. Mystics are proof. Its Gods domain - what are we seriously gonna control about it? But what we CAN do and need to do is to be willing, surrendered to the actualization of Spirit in us thru active applied Sanctification, as Paul and Timothy teach us to actively pursue.

Wow - just realized something. I've created a V-Model in Therapy based on Spiritual Principles in Scripture (Victory Model is what I call it.) It is the MasterModel in that it leads to myriad other Models having a similarity to V but arranged differently (such as M-Model, etc.)

And here we are talking about Verticological Mediators...

Just realized my V-Model produces just this type of person! Ah...God is so kewl, so Good to us. (Tears. Smiles.)

Sorry for such a long post again - but look at what just came out of it. Impact. The AHA-BAM Moment. Thanks so much for YOU All being here & helping me "work it thru." I KNEW I couldnt do it without You and its why I kept pursuing/looking & have ended up at this wonderful Oasis/Ocean. No more words now Peeps. Gotta Go. Laterz All! :D

- P2 -

12/14/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Anonymous PsychoPrincess P2 said...

NoMo, my humblest apologies - I checked your profile, but it did not say if you're male or female, and Anon just alerted me you are male. Sheesh only in Cyberland. But Faux-pas keep us humble & humored too. Please dont take offense, I meant none. My mistake I wont make again! Musta been the feminine in you I wuz connectin wiff. (Hangs head sheepishly in disgrace.)

- P2 -

12/14/2006 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger MikeZ said...

In "Thy Wilber Done", you mention, among the things that have to be unlearned, "that religion has caused more death and violence ....".

How do you reconcile that with the Muslim Conquest, the Spanish Inquistion, the Crusades (which I realize were a response to Muslim expansion)?

Perhaps it is that those killed by Communism, under Stalin, Pol Pot &c, are greater, but I wonder if they're that much greater.

uss ben: "If there is nothing worth dying for, then there is nothing worth living for."

Maybe it takes a miltary man to understand such things. Another thought is, "when you believe in nothing, you can believe in anything" (Maybe C.S. Lewis).

"Should I coddle those who reject Life and Liberty? Is that the Christian thing to do?"

"Love" doesn't mean accepting whatever the Other does. In fact, that attitude is indistinguishable from indifference. One of the Old Greek Guys said [something like], love is wanting what is good for the other, for the sake of the other. And, presumably, doing something about it.

psychoprincess: You have a way with words - great reading. Small point, though: " When confronted to face Submission Choice, their usual Bloviating Bull**it is exposed exactly for what it is - more CaCa." In another language, "submission" is "islam". As I'm not far along the road, could you explain what's meant by "Submission", and how it differs from "islam" (note the small "i")?

The length of your posts (of which I do not complain) is almost certainly a reaction to ".. they do all the talkin & pay me 2 keep my mouth mostly shut.".

12/14/2006 10:52:00 AM  
Anonymous PsychoPrincess P2 said...

MikeZ: Glad you enjoy it! Thanks for asking for clarification on Submission vs. islam (which means "To submit.")

CaCa - reference to G-Bobs Poopy Diaper art. Need I say more?

Bloviators: "They Blow But Dont Know."

To Go On Uselessly - as in Big Bad Wolf Huffin & Puffin & threatening to blow the House down...but it didnt fall. Blowing smoke/steam; words & ideas manipulated as a smokescreen to hide the Fact / Truth their words are just fancydances that lack real substance & dont support any particular Truth Absolute.

"Blovio" as & in posturin & posin as Hypocrits do. Bloviators lack true Humility. Instead they embrace a false pride as their Shield, as it usually hides the angry fearful self behind which the Bloviator wants noone to see.

The Wizard of Oz - odd little man posing as Big Man/All Powerful god but is still an Psychospiritual Munchkin.

Boasters. Posers. Bluffers. Cheaters. Rebuffers. Fakers. Unrepenters. Hypocrits. Retaliators. Snideful Pridefuls.

The list of their neg attributes goes on.

Blovios usually have Unrepentant Hypocrisy-in-action underlying their steam engines; but some are more harmless/accidental. Some even self-correct, but not many. They are Chronic Hypocrits, in short.

Pulpit Preachers who Refuse to Submit self to Christs Lordship yet claim to preach His Message yet dont bridle the tongue nor obey Truths & Wisdoms due to shame & seared consciences, etc. Hence from the mouth-runneth-over comes Ca-Ca (intellectual mumbojumbo empty of Truth calories).

Blow(viators) (another way to spell it) are most like Pharisees of Jesus' day who sat around discoursing about Truths & Theology (The Knowledge & Study of God) as if they knew God personally when they did NOT have a personal relationship w/Him at all. They acted "as if" they knew & could hear God - yet when questioned closely they fancydanced instead of answering Christ dead-on. They didnt really want to understand Jesus' message, so instead of searching Scriptures as seriously as they should have done to answer His Assertions, they instead condemned Him every step of the way - becuz they felt Threatened by Exposure of their True Sinful Spiritual condition. They Coverup. Wolves in Sheeps Clothing posing as Sheep.

They Dazzle em with BS & pray no one of real substance sees them & confronts them on their Fakery. I like to whisper politely to them: "You might want to re-cover up - your Crack(s) is/are showing. Or You can repent & lose the Clown Suit."

When confronted, their haughty veneer suddenly comes to life & they attack back & will use actual words you use & fling em at you in contempt. Then when the threat you pose is past, they go back to bloviating once again. They love to hear themselves talk, instruct others, split hairs/be semantic, whine when others are semantic...they deflect & blame others while ignoring their own sin & dysfunctional relational Truth w/God.

They arent grounded in Gods Reality. Then again, anyone not in active Submission to Christ arent in Gods Reality much either but are in deception.

> When confronted with the Choice to Submit to bridle & "bit" of the Spirit & "freedom" to Blowviate, they prefer the latter, like pushing an automatic button, like being on auto-pilot.

Some have operated cleverly disguised & undercover for yrs & are quite crafty & good at the deceptions they purvey. Satan is good at it also as CS Lewis demonstrates in Screwtape Letters.

Bloviators tend to claim they are "intellectual" rather than Spiritual cuz they know their words only go so far into the Spiritual Realm they dont normally traffic with & relate to. They stay on their own turf so to speak, but bend it to "look" like & mirror Spiritual turf. They admire powerful people & get close to them; but if the powerful person turns the Light onto the Bloviator, they usually cast the powerful person off their idealized pedestal and attack them or dismiss them.

Fakers live at the negative vertical bottom of the Cross, not high up on the Spiritual Food Chain but actually descend DOWN the Spiritually negative Spiral, thereby increasing his ability for Deceptiveness in speaking & writing the lower he goes n grows.

Duplicitous deception comes in when he PRETENDS & Fakes Truth and controls people or situations to "make" others deliberately believe he is coming from the Vertical Godly position or at least much Higher position than is True. They make the False Real & pull the wool over others eyes. Cain tried to do it. They refuse to be corrected. They refuse to repent. They refuse to Submit to God on anything. Becuz their Pride fules in them. Instead of being "honest" about it & facing it & thereby gaining the Fruits of Humility, they simply IGNORE their sin and continue on deceiving others, convincing people they are NOT Wolves in Sheeps clothing when actually they are. They are not too interested in Truth nor repentance nor submission as such Spiritual traits cause them pain which they choose to avoid.

Their Spiritual Bank Account is often just as corrupt & empty as any Leftist. Bloviators & Pharisees in particular pose as Christian & move & live & "relate" w/Christians. They believe becuz they think they are saved they must be a Christian even though they solidly ignore the HolySpirits relationship with them. They are People of the Lie of the First Order - from out of the Heart the Mouth speaks. We learn to hear & spiritually discern substance from fancydancing.

They use the HolySpirit (Heb 11 points out our Abuse of God is real). They must continually "put on a good front" to continue to hide sin-cracks that inevitably appear especially if you are in any substantive relationship w/them. They dont want to receive correction, hate for others to "say anything" to them, and hide the fact they are Spiritually Bankrupt. Its hard for them to know Gods Will accurately (having not established enuf rel w/Him in first place); they "seem to respond" to support others Truths but for all they know they still lack giving Substantive Absolute Truths & insights.

All of these "Behaviors" are inner Choices people make, either to Sin or not to sin, to embrace Gods Truth/Will/Way or to do it Selfs/Sin/Satans Way.

So they are faced with the Crossroads of Submission of Choices as much as anyone - but they prefer to pass it by on Autopilot. Their wills are already against God at that point becuz they choose as a man thinks not as God thinks/instructs/Wills.

A child may obey a parent even if he does not know the reasons/thoughts for doing so. So, Submission of our Wills/Choices operationally comes first before Submission of our Thoughts.

Bloviators try to talk like "higher up" Christians on the Spiritual Dev. Scale having Spiritual Wisdom; but They dont actually have it & are faking it like Leftists seize the moral high ground & also fake it.

They have an underlying sin motive that is uncrucified (unsubmitted neg pride) craving to be seen & accepted & respected on the same level as those having (posessing) Masterful Wisdom-power-in-Spirit, yet they do not have the real Spiritual Wisdom to support their cravings, so they hang around people they think are "in the know" or having Spiritual potency & try to insulate themselves into these cliques & circles.

Kinda like Parasites suck the blood of their host.

They constantly SCAM & LIE and put on False fronts in order to "secure" their place with their Superiors. You see they must keep up The Lie and that takes work.

Some Believers are "Christians" for years, becoming Saved/Justified by their intial belief & acceptance of Christ. I find no need to gainsay them so I leave that alone.

What they USE in its place is a intellectualism that IMPLIES they "KNOW" the same things we do. They have actually failed to have & maintain intimate relationship w/the Big 3.

You can see it clearly when you read carefully what they write as they do not tend to talk of God in the First Person familiar - or alternatively they will ONLY speak of the Spirit in one way & not others thats one-sided.

They've made their Choices but it isnt for Submission.

* * * * *

SUBMISSION and islam:

For a most excellent read on the subject of Submission itself (Brokenness) there is a gem of a small book thats an easy BUT powerfully-packed read called "Embracing Brokenness" By Alan E. Nelson usually on sale at Amazon / Christian book stores for a mere $5 or less.

GET the BOOK ASAP as it discusses everything you'd wanna know at the 101 Level about Submission/Brokenness as it applies - How to have it in Christ & Why to do so & What is is all about. The book splits hairs between the working definitions of Submission and Brokenness, but when you study the Hebrew & Greek words you learn more depth than this book covers. So its a great "starting introduction" but only covers so much, accordingly. Powerful.

Submission is the Willful Choice to Actively Surrender ones sins and various self-aspects involved in comitting sin to a position under Christs Authority & Will, instead of ignoring His Authority & embracing ones "own authority" (will) in continued Rebellion against the Trinity (which is really to say serving satans authority is sin vs. Gods Authority in Truth/Love). Rebellion tries to convince self it can be god when it cant and tries to assure one rebellion is fine when it isnt.

When one sins, one is supposed to look & see/realize the sin or be open to conviction/accountable confrontation, agreet w/God to Submit the aspects of self involved to Him, Admit what you did, & listen with reverent respect for His Authority (as children need to learn to listen to & respect proper parental authority) for His instruction to confess, repent, receive forgiveness etc. so that He can then organically "convict, instruct, guide, lead, clean, purify, forgive, etc. to bring Repentance & Metanoically transform & restore Right relationship w/Him so proper relationship proceeds smoothly.

Submission looks easy but its tough to do and "stick with" becuz it "causes" one ALOT of pain on different levels (the sin causes the pain actually; restoration of right relationship outta sin is painful but worth it.)

Submission is a powerful Spiritual Weapon (Sword) no Christian should be without learning to apply skillfully to self, for it strikes a blow to the heart of EVERY SIN & Destroys the enemies plans & machinations for us.

Submission can take place on 3 Basic Levels but we learn to apply it on more levels as we grow healthy, holy, wiser & skilled:

1. Submssion of Your Will - Submission of Choices & Decisions (even tho we have free will to choose) we want to choose HIS will, not our own for in Him we are safe. This eliminates the need for relying on self & guessing Gods Will. But it also requires one to pretty quickly learn how to hear Gods Voice & discern His Will. Most "drop out" & dont learn how to do it enuf due to the pain built into the Redemptive process Submission triggers. Gods thoughts instead of My Thoughts, altho my thots "count" HIS take precedence & there shouldnt be lotta fight if we apply active obedience & Spirit control to self.

2. Submission of Thoughts / Mind: Surrendering Your Thoughts (lusts, desires, analyses, evaluations, Opinions, observations, perceptions, everything cognitive we think & observe (also what the heart "thinks") to the Authority of HS. We give Him our "thots" & He gives us His thoughts in Return - we make out with the better end of the deal.

Tons of Scripture verses support this well known Principle to "have the mind of Christ" meaning to think w/Him instead of self. "Victory Over The Darkness" and the "Bondage Breaker" books help us understand just how to trade the lies we believe for Gods Truths & actively apply Scripture to the inside of us.

Addicts learn to literally turn each thot moment by moment over to Him as thots can lead you astray & some can come from the demonic.

3. Submission of the Feelings/Heart: Surrender of the Feelings we Feel including Anger, Hatred, Contempt, Grace, Shame, Sadness, Grief, FEARS, yes even Happiness and Love - all can be submitted to Him so that we learn to stay within His emotional boundaries & limits & learn His Emotional Wisdom & Truths to apply to the Hearts condition so it grows mature.

Order of Operations of Submission ALWAYS in this order:
> FIRST: Submit Your Will / Choices / Decisions.
> SECOND: Submit Your Mind / Thoughts / Lies you hear in exchange for Scriptural Truth Principles.
> THIRD: Submit Your Emotions / Feelings, etc.

This is really simplified in trying to keep it short.

Now, Islam is a verb meaning "to Submit."

As w/most Middle Eastern languages, words have more than one meaning & shading. It means many things - most only know one of two of them:

> "Forced" Submission of Infidels to embrace Islam at the Point of the Sword (military might) is the historical definition of islam.

If you talk w/regular non-extremist Muslims of today, they have a sense they are to Submit self / behaviors to God - it is evident thematically albeit low key thruout their worship style with prostrate praying, bowing, head touching floor, rituals of their religion, etc. not just submission done while at the Mosque but also done in the Home.

> They have a beginning understanding of an "organic" relational active submission to God though not with the understanding we have of a Personal relationship w/God. Their idea of God is more of the Authoritarian God (Allah) as King-Cop in the Sky Ruling Over Them All, Old Testament style God since they know many stories of Moses, Abraham, David, Elijah, Daniel, etc.

Their idea of submission is NOT broken down (that I know of) into the 3 Basic Categories I've outlined above. Its largely unstructured - however, I admit I'm no expert on Scholarly Islam, although I shall keep studying it deeper in order to witness Christ & Scriptural Truth more effectively among, to & with them.

So the concept of an active on-going Submission of self to God or at least of selfs behaviors vs chosen sins IS found in Islam in different forms. Its something that can be worked with, versus having no concept of it as other religions do not.

James 4: "Submit yourselves then..." I call this verse the Spiritual Warfare 101 verse. If you think to submit your thoughts first but not your will, any sin addiction will stay hooked within you even tho your mind might be temporarily cleansed.

Interestingly enuf, when you change the Order of Operations of Submission, PsychoSpiritual Illness of all kinds are the result. I've detailed it in a book I'm writing that shows the Dysfunctional Orders of Submission: delineating the Spiritual structures of Alchoholism, Addicts, Overemotionalism, Rebellion, & other Strongholds & Bondages in Spiritual ill-health & chronic immaturity.


Hope that helps answer your Qs roundly, MikeZ. Thanks for being interested in Submission. GBU!

-PsychoPrincess-

12/14/2006 02:20:00 PM  
Anonymous DK said...

I was in a discussion the other day concerning leftist freedom versus R (right or republican, Read: capitalist pig) freedom.

The founding fathers wanted freedom from the control of the state in matters they considered to be none of the state's business. Take a look at the first amendment of the Constitution. You'd think that these things are awfully important becuase they are first. (emphasis mine)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Ok, so there are 5 freedoms that the founding fathers thought were important enough to put up front:
Religion
Speech
Press
Peaceable assembly
Petitioning the government

According to this story "just one in 1,000 people could name all five First Amendment freedoms."

That's sad.
Anyway...

The founding fathers felt that religion (for one thing) was too important to be left to the government. The idea being that the state cannot ultimately be responsible for one's salvation and spiritual well being. As an american, I cherish this freedom because I am the ONLY one responsible for my spiritual self. But it's more than that. I must face the consequences of any action I take. If I get drunk and drive and kill someone, I am responsible. If I don't show up at work and get fired, I am responsible. Sure, other people may be hurt as a result of my actions, but I am responsible in the end.

Freedom from the R point of view recognizes that people are responsible for their own actions. I work hard, I reap the benefits. I don't work hard, I suffer the consequences. This type of freedom says I don't want the government to interfere with my life because I am ultimately responsible for what I do good or bad.

Freedom from the leftist point of view is freedom from responsibility. The leftist wants freedom from religion because he or she doesn't want to face the spiritual world. The leftist wants freedom of speeh because he wants to say what he wants without consequence.

But it doesn't end there.

The R thinker wants freedom of speech because the R thinker values the open discussion of ideas. The R thinker holds all people to the same standard. The R thinker knows that with hard work and education, anyone can be sucessful according to their talents.

The leftist wants a double standard. The leftist doesn't want a flat rate tax because it's better to tax those with more money more heavily. The leftist claims to support truth but outwardly supports a lying Iran with their holocoust denial confrence. The leftist claims to support freedom of speech but then tries to silence those who say something the leftist doesn't like.


I could go on, but my point is this:
The R thinker wants freedom to be responsible.
The leftists wants freedom from responsibility.

12/16/2006 09:10:00 PM  

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