Wednesday, December 27, 2006

The Original Sin of Progressives

There is a cliche that slavery was the "original sin" of the United States, but that can't be right. The real meaning of original sin is a primordial choice made by man as such, a choice that places him in a parallel universe that then shapes and determines everything else that follows. Not only was slavery banned within 90 years of our founding, but the framers wrote the costitution in such a way that the conflict over slavery would have to eventually come to a head. They simply put the conflict off to the future in order to make the fragile union of states possible at the outset.

There is obviously some confusion in my use of the terms "left" and "right," because I don't really intend to connote their contemporary usage. Rather, what ends up as this or that policy is founded upon a much deeper characterological and even spiritual divide that determines what follows. In short, I am always dealing with what the steamed Professor Chomsky would call the "deep structure" of left and right.

You might say that the founders were free of political "original sin," and created a system that is about as close to perfection as humans can manage. The sin only came in later, eating away at the foundations of this noble country. What was it? What was the alien meme that entered the American bloodstream and infected half its inhabitants? Whatever it is, it has now come to dominate and shape most of our political debates, in a way that the original Americans would have found puzzling.

In a two part essay entitled Dangerous Obsession, I think Thomas Sowell identifies the real original sin, which is the flight from individualism amidst organic unity to an enforced political collectivism that attacks individual differences by placing equality over liberty. Although Sowell is an economist, economics is simply common sense writ large, whereas most other academic disciplines -- i.e., philosophy, anthropology, psychology -- often come down to error on a grandiose scale. Just as you can't fool mother nature, you cannot fool father economics -- at least not in the long run (i.e., "just wait 'til your father comes home, Venezuela!").

What most seems to annoy leftist intellectuals about the free market is that, not only is it something that they cannot control or understand, but it accomplishes its task much more effectively and efficiently than the most brilliant person -- or group of people -- ever could. Sowell cites a famous essay which pointed out that no single person knows enough to produce so much as a single lead pencil. That is, "there is no single individual anywhere who knows how to grow the wood, mine the graphite, produce the rubber, and manufacture the paint." And yet, no one need ever worry that there won't be enough pencils, so long as we don't interfere with the process: "Complex economic processes cause all these things to be done and coordinated by a wide variety of people, just in order to produce something as simple as a lead pencil. Multiply that by a hundred or a thousand when it comes to the complexity of producing a car or a computer."

Now, if you don't even know how to produce a lead pencil or even to put lead in your husband's pencil (Dupree, that was uncalled for), imagine the hubris of a Hillary Clinton deciding to intervene in an industry that accounts for some 17% of our economy and creating a rigid, top-down national healthcare system? Without so much as a fig leaf of economic rationality to cover this flaccid Marxism?

One of the latest memes of the left is "income disparity," a classic instance of missing the forest for the trees. Yes, there are disparities in income for the same reason that there is so much wealth to begin with. Thus, you cannot attack the one without undermining the other. But as Sowell notes, "If you cannot understand something as simple as making a lead pencil, why should you be surprised that you don't understand why someone is making a lot more money than somebody else?" Nevertheless, this doesn't stop leftists from insisting that this "problem" -- which they do not understand -- is something that requires "fixing," naturally by coercive governmental policy. This means that the collective -- the government -- will inevitably "impose policies based on [their] ignorance of what is going on."

Sowell notes that "when income taxes were imposed in the early 20th century, they applied only to 'the rich' and they took a very small percentage of their income." But "Once the floodgates are opened to this kind of political power... we have seen with the income taxes that they not only spread far beyond 'the rich,' they took a serious share of even middle class incomes."

Remember, the founders saw this coming: "The people who wrote the Constitution were wise enough to understand what a dangerous thing it would be to allow government to take money from people just because those people had it." That is why it required "a Constitutional amendment to enable the federal government to impose an income tax."

I think that right there is our original political sin, for it is the point of entry for every subsequent leftist meme, dream, scheme and scam. The power of contemporary "progressives" is based largely on the power to tax. Its other main sources of power are the judiciary, where they can pack courts to legislate unpopular ideas from the bench, and the MSM and academia, where they control the flow of information in order to make the abnormal and aberrant appear normal and healthy. Thus, "social or ideological bias" are "added to envy and ignorance," producing the progressive "witches' brew on which to base national policy."

It is a truism that progressives are obsessed with the distribution of wealth -- taking it as a given -- while conservatives are concerned with its creation. Nowhere is this more evident than in differing attitudes toward the third world. For just as progressives have no idea why some Americans are wealthier than others, they also have no idea why some nations are so much wealthier than others. Thus, for some 40 years we have been guided by this blinkered policy of simply pouring money into the third world, which disappears like water into a sandy hole at the beach. All of this misguided "idiot compassion" has only made matters demonstrably worse, and put off the day of reckoning when these poorer countries must address the dysfunctional ideas and institutions that keep them mired in poverty.

As usual, progressives have it backwards. They look at the disparities in wealth between various countries and then define the disparities as ipso facto inequalities. "Disparity" is a neutral term, but an "inequality" is something we must courageously do something about! Even if it makes matters much worse!

In asking why the United States, or Japan, or Western Europe have more wealth, "You might as well ask why bees have so much more honey than other creatures." Here again, we see how the original sin insinuates itself into our economic rhetoric, which verbally "collectivizes" all of "the wealth that was produced individually," so that the progressive becomes "aghast at the 'disparities' that are magically turned into 'inequities in the distribution of 'the world's wealth.'"

And one of the most formidable barriers to wealth is culture. There is an ironic parallel between "progressives" and primitives, in that both have dysfunctional economic ideas, even though the one presumes to be helping the other. Although it may have been different in the past, today "the economic effects of these cultural differences often dwarf the effects of differences in material things like natural resources." For example, "Natural resources in Uruguay and Venezuela are worth several times as much per capita as natural resources in Japan and Switzerland. But income per capita in Japan and Switzerland is about double that of Uruguay and several times that of Venezuela."

As always, the problem is bad ideas. But instead of correcting the dysfunctional ideas, progressives want to indulge them while exercising their own equally bad and dysfunctional ideas, all in the name of compassion. We can only thank God that America has always distrusted intellectuals.

So be aware of original sin. It will always come as a seductive idea that seems both liberating and compassionate, but is actually cruel and enslaving.


From Taranto's Best of the Web today:

"Cuba's health-care system, a favorite of pinkos everywhere, turns out not to be good enough for communist dictator Fidel Castro, as Reuters reports from Madrid:

'A renowned Spanish surgeon has been rushed to Cuba to treat ailing leader Fidel Castro....The plane carried medical equipment not available in Cuba in case the leader needs further surgery due to his progressively failing health...'"


Anonymous said...

Actually, the main cause of disparity in wealth is proximity to the Earth's equator; the closer a nation is, the poorer it will be.

Bob writes a case which illustrates this:

"Natural resources in Uruguay and Venezuela are worth several times as much per capita as natural resources in Japan and Switzerland. But income per capita in Japan and Switzerland is about double that of Uruguay and several times that of Venezuela."

Ideas (bad and good) determine wealth, but the kinds of ideas people tend to have is determined by geography.

River Cocytus said...

I suppose we should be moving everyone towards the poles?

Oh, I think they are already doing that. Problem solved!

Belloq said...

I was wondering what you think of the authors Robert A. Heinlein and Eric Hoffer. I'm pretty sure Hoffer was an athiest, but he wasn't all pissy about it. Heinlein confuses me on the issue, but I think his primary problem with religion was dogmatic religion that crushed individualism, not the belief in a "higher order", firm or inchoate.

Besides these possible differences, your blogs remind me of the works of both men.

Have you ever considered writing fiction?


Anonymous said...

SScientist: You have to be joking!

That is fallacious logic of the "correlation does not equal causation" kind.

There is truth in there, but you must dig deeper than just "my latitude made my lassitude".

Bob: Great points... you came around to state that it is indeed slavery that is the "original sin"... it's just that it is not the type we automatically associate with here in the US.

Belloq said...

Social scientist wrote:
"Ideas (bad and good) determine wealth, but the kinds of ideas people tend to have is determined by geography."

I earned me a BA in History, and I wrote many an essay on the strong influence of geography on a people, and the strong influence of a people on a person raised among them, so I don't disagree with your basic idea. I do, however, disagree with what appears to be a finality to your statement.

Humans... have been to the moon! We have concepts like "mercy", "fairness", and "sadomasochism". I find it hard to believe that we are totally at the whim of nature. We're too crazy for that. Have you ever seen a game of cricket?

Example: nature hates a straight line, humans need lots of water to live, humans are ground animals that require a stable terra firma, and we have shown an almost obsessive desire to explore everything we can, from the bottom of the ocean to the distant stars. So, what do we humans do?

We cross prairies and mountains full of monsters and hostile Indians, settle a city in a desert, build straight and massive skyscrappers right on a fault line, and create Hollywood to get rich off of movies with insipid dialogue like "people always fear what they don't understand."

People fear what they don't understand like a moth fears the flame.

So, to sum up: I agree, but it's not that simple.


NoMo said...

SS - Many "ancients" lived very close to the equator in South and Central America and had vast, intricate, highly advanced civilizations for centuries. How would you explain that?

Van Harvey said...

I nominate Socialist "Scientist" as dummy of the day (then again I've only made it through one comment, there may be competition).

"but the kinds of ideas people tend to have is determined by geography"

For your sake I hope that was Jared Diamond parody.

Anonymous said...

Devolution NOT Revolution, back to, oh, about, say, the operational status of our large framework just before the XIXth Amendment was ratified. If you "got" that without checking and you're a little gassed, I'm just kidding. Luv ya!

Uh, um, never checked the statistical viability of that equator thing but begs this question: The folks in The Keys are less ambitious than the folks in Bangor? Suppose it could be something to think about, if I had the time.

It's almost impossible to believe these leftists aren't nodding and winking to their blind horse's. Won't be happy till we're all living short, brutal lives, in caves, pooping in holes in the ground. "Cradle to grave" is easier that way. When the DOA starts dismantling Mid Western grain silos - deploy your emergency plan. heh heh

Gagdad Bob said...

Also, geographic determinism does not address the fact that peoples stay in harsh and unforgiving climates instead of just moving. The psychohistorian Lloyd DeMause felt it was for psychological reasons -- in other words, people stay in a harsh external environment that mirrors the harshness of their subjective world. The two -- internal and external -- then sort of recreate each other.

Look at how the so-called Palestinians perpetually recreate that hellhole known as the Palestinian terrortories. It wouldn't feel like home if it were ever to progress.

robinstarfish said...

original sin
honeybees stung hillary
truth is bitter. sweet!

Van Harvey said...

Another Top Notcher Gagdad.

Tough to go wrong with any of the mucho many books Thomas Sowell has written, and one in particular which focuses on this issue, and I highly recommend, is his "A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles"

Gagdad said... " enable the federal government to impose an income tax. I think that right there is our original political sin, for it is the point of entry for every subsequent leftist meme, dream, scheme and scam. The power of contemporary "progressives" is based largely on the power to tax. "

I agree that that was the moment of biting into the apple, but the actual act of picking it from the tree I think can be traced back to the end of the Civil War, with the Morrell amendment which introduced Land Grant colleges back by the Federal Gov, and the idea of Federal involvement in local matters, in this case, and tellingly, it was in regards to education.

As in all good tragedy, its seeds were contained in our very founding, with actions legitimizing it through the words of the man who gave our founding it's most immortal words, Thomas Jefferson. He gave legitimacy to the idea of a public education, when he had proposed an elaborate system for implementing such a system, though in his defense his reasons were quite sound “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be”, and he had not yet seen a Hegelian Progressive yet, and he suffered under the innocent impression that government could be used to DO Good.

I go into this in some detail on my site in this post here, particularly mid way down in the section 'Rewriting Reality'.

Atlantin said...

re:"nomo said...
SS - Many "ancients" lived very close to the equator in South and Central America and had vast, intricate, highly advanced civilizations for centuries. How would you explain that?"

Pole Shift of circa 40° anytime from 5000 to 12000 years ago. Former Pole in region East and slightly South of Hudson Bay. Explains frozen Mammoths in Siberia if the shift was in hours rather than a longer time course, "sun standing still" from Bible, and why during supposed ice age a land bridge was ice free between siberia and the Pacific N.W. Read as an introduction books by Charles Hapgood.

If a pole shift did happen the Mesoamerican civilizations would have developed 40° or more North of their present latitude. With the shift the civilizations were swept from the temperate zone toward the equator and devolution.

Gagdad Bob said...


Yes, isn't it amazing that the liberal media annoint a street thug like Al Sharpton "King of Negroes," whereas a brillianty clear thinker such as Sowell is just ignored? If you transcend victimology, white liberals effectively strip you of your blackness, because your blackness is no longer of any use to their ideological agenda.

Anonymous said...

I think the original American sin might be summed up as the reversal of the historical/spiritual flow, from emphasis on individual responsibility/individuation back to collectivism/unconsciousness. That this is done *consciously* makes the reversal a genuine evil.

Occurs to me that one of the "higher purposes" of the constitution was in fact to divide, to eventually create a distinct polarization, this to underscore what is at root a right hand/left hand spiritual choice, the free choice between good and evil. When the polarization first reached critical mass, the Civil War ensued.

In this sense, the constitution came not to bring peace as the world thinks of peace, but rather it brought a sword.

GeorgeD said...

The original sin of progressives is attempting to have society without God. It would a hellish world if there were no social mechanisms just as as it is when social mechanisms are overdeveloped and oppressive. The only way we can have a society that is truly free is by acknowledging God and his truth.

Anonymous said...

Interesting post Bob, thanks.
Will you lost me here: "Occurs to me that one of the "higher purposes" of the constitution was in fact to divide, to eventually create a distinct polarization, this to underscore what is at root a right hand/left hand spiritual choice, the free choice between good and evil. When the polarization first reached critical mass, the Civil War ensued."
Would you mind elaborating?

Van Harvey said...

GeorgeD said...
"... The only way we can have a society that is truly free is by acknowledging God and his truth."

I think that the only way we can have a society that is truly free... is by setting people free to live their lives free from either Gov hindrance or help and by protecting those freedoms, not by attempting to establish freedom through Gov policy.

Whether or not such an official policy is pro-religion or not, the result will be 'choice' imposed, freedom lost, and any honest religious sentiment quashed (ala Islamicism).

Anonymous said...

Mmmm!Mmmm! Good! Anytime we can have a straightforward example of failed economics AND discuss beautiful transcendent philosophy that can embrace such straightforwardness... well, it's just gonna be a good day!

I'm coining a new term, GB, if you haven't already:

Cosmosis: learning new things by just hanging around One Cosmos long enough to let 'em sink in.

Van Harvey said...

I'll second Joseph's request, I think I see where you're going with that (somewhat along the lines of my comment to GeorgeD?), but would appreciate some elaboration.

Lisa said...

The Cuban National Health SCare System is just priceless! "Progressives" just want everybody brought to the same level, except of course themselves. Unfortunately, this equal level is always down from what a free and capatilistic market produces on its own. I have such a hard time understanding why people don't care enough to take care of themselves and are willing to gamble and leave it up to a state. When has the state ever done anything well (Katrina recovery, Thailand Tsunami, etc...)? I sure as hell don't want my health to be dependent on the state. Let's see how they handle the roads first! I am happy to work hard enough to pay for my own insurance and pray/thank God for my health as a back-up. Private entities can usually be found to help with unavoidable emergencies.

Anonymous said...

It seems to me that the income tax, which actually began, for a time, during the Civil War, has always been for the purpose of preparing for and waging war. Given our role as policing the world, I don't see how you can object to this, unless you propose a different way to collect funds for the military. The rate, on the other hand can be argued about.

I have never thought of American having an original sin, but if we were to roll back time, I would far prefer freeing humans from ownership than removing the income tax. I would prefer both, of course.

Anonymous said...


Spoken by a fine Cosmosista'.

Anonymous said...

Joseph - I probably shouldn't have said that the constitution *creates* division, but that it allows for division and polarization in the deepest spiritual context.

For me, democracy/freedom is not an end in itself (albeit I truly love the perks). Rather democracy, via the constitution, creates the space, the arena in which one can, with independence of mind and free will, choose between good and evil.

The implication here, obviously, is that following the choice between good and evil, there comes a reckoning of some sort, an ultimate dividing in which we are moreless permanently aligned with either good or evil. On the individual level, this could perhaps mean what kind of afterlife we meet up with. On the collective level, it could mean the eventual coming of a Parousia, the endgame of the linear historical process, the ultimate separation of good from evil.

Is that a helpful explication?

Right now, I really feel the urge to go into the garage and play with my remote control "Air Hog" helicopter.

Anonymous said...

A nice post bob, well written and it made sense...

Strangely, even the comment... "Dupree, that was uncalled for" made sense to me ;)

Van Harvey said...

The problem with the income tax is not that it cuts into our income - a War Tax of some sort (for either actual War, or defensive preparations, is definitely justified - our extended 'duties' at present should be debated and established as well), but the fact that by taxing your income, preceding you in your right to earn your living - does mortal damage to the concept of Property Rights and Rights in general. Look at what has followed suit in short order.

"I would far prefer freeing humans from ownership than removing the income tax" Absolutely, though I think the latter leads to the former.

In case there's some confusion, the Morrel (a Republican by the way) act to establish land grant colleges I mentioned was put across not as a war funding method, but actually as a way to edumicate them Sarthuner's, so there wouldn't be any more civil war.

PrincessSpirit said...

WILL: Great observation. Thoughtful. Thanks for giving voice to what I also think. Ditto, that!

Scary: You often give voice to precisely what I want to say...LOL... they say the one that can finish your thoughts and sentences for you is the one you should marry! :D

I cant WAIT to order G-BOBs book & Schuon this weekend - so glad to see he includes so many areas/disciplines I'd expect to see in such a comprehensive work, including Attachment Theory! I KNOW its going to be a great read and I look forward to it with relish.

- PsychoPrincess -

Van Harvey said...

Will said..."...the constitution, creates the space, the arena in which one can, with independence of mind and free will, choose between good and evil."

That's what I thought you were thinking - well said.

Anonymous said...

And that's why I made the connecting allusion to JC's words, "I don't come to make peace, but I'm bringing a sword", ie., JC was a divider not a uniter.

In other words, JC, like the democracy itself, was making distinct the choice between good and evil. JC was saying, hey, I'm not going to usher in the Parousia right now, am just giving you jokers the choice you have to make . . . I'll be back, though, so choose wisely.

The Air Hog remote control helicopter is so cool that I believe Yottle is thinking of manifesting through it, enough with the deflated soccer ball already.

GeorgeD said...

Well I meant the leftist eviction of God from society. Obviously, if God allows his angels freedom to disobey then he allows it to us as well and so we must not forcibly impose religious behavior or profession on anyone (as the Islamists do). If enough of us reject him we'll be back to where we are (or are heading) with Leftism.

Anonymous said...

But the Exousia of the people needs to occur long before the Parousia occurs - are we even anywhere near that stage now? - P2 -

Anonymous said...

Alright, I'll say it just this once: As much as I'd like to see Lefies all nuked and obliterated from the planet, unfortunately they're like cockroaches - more keep coming!

Thanks. Just needed to get that out. :D

Now back to GeorgeD and Will talking about the necessity of free will instead of communation (commie dominance) - RiverC and I were talking about the state vs the religion and which controls which in different societies on another post - and the resultant outcomes in those societies, accordingly.

River Cocytus said...

Man, I still play SimCity 4. The world on city property tax. What is funny is, going to simtropolis (a great storehouse of additions) I found that people mistook the 'value' on commercial buildings to be 'income' and thus 'taxable income' -- as though it were static (though that is a problem of the game anyway) but it is in fact the value of the property plus the building.

-- this mistake to me is very telling.

Needless to say, the game is won by thinking the biggest, paying attention to detail, and letting the cities grow as they will. Some play to make perfect cities-- but that just means 'all of the services' which I never provide. And leastaways I only provide what the property will bear.

The only perfect city is the one that grows... and grows.. and grows. Anything else is just an antique.

The game has an 'id' - its three little bars 'Residential', 'Commerical' and 'Industrial' -- which grow the more you fulfill them...

And it has a 'superego' - the incessant messages about people hating the air pollution, or the lack of public water here or there, or that there's no nearby fire station... half of the messages are worth ignoring.

The 'ego' is of course the undying, never tiring mayor (long may he reign!)

And God? He shapes the place up real good so you can actually build. His icon, quite predictably, is the sun.

The people who fail real deeply at the game-- which honestly is difficult to do once you know what you are doing-- are people who build neurotically.

To me its like building a garden-- you know, plant, water, TRIM. A lot of trimming. My guess is, they lift the bulldozer down on a winch so you can get to those out-of-the way places.

It is not 'realistic' in the sense of, 'you could ever do this'. But the simulator isn't bad. And it certainly (now, as compared to the first game) understands economics a lot better.

The rule? To grow, grow. To expand, expand. Wealth costs you something, but to he who is willing to pay, there is no limit (except for the size of the land.)

Spore, which may or may not ever come to be, will be great fun, in the whole 'all types of evolution' way. The game is 'evolutionary', but really more 'intelligent designy' since between each 'generation' the player (God) does a lil tinkering. Not sure where I stand on that one, but as a game, its only purpose is to train the mind and please the senses.

Anyway, to come back around to what I was going to say-- the constitution is bifurcating in nature, that is, if truly successful it should always create the condition 'e pluribus unim'. (sp?) which is 'from many, one'. So division is created automatically by man's nature, but the constitution is always acting to unite him.

There's like a balance-- where man continually stays as they say 'just far away enough from equilibrium' to bifurcate. 'Bifurcation' being, (If I remember right) the place where a new system (possibly higher) emerges. So with each bifurcation, the constitution ensures that men will return in time to that position 'just a bit away from equilibrium' and BAM! new system.

How fast? As fast as the society will bear, of course.

So in that sense, 'Liberty' well defined is not 'complete freedom from law' but rather horizontally defined a state, a mean of law and lawlessness.

Vertically, the opposite of Liberty is what? Vertical opposites are in fact, hard to grasp. For the bad one is always of two, double-minded. For the opposite of humility is 'self-absorbtion' which is a dual minded state of Arrogance and Self-Pity. The opposite of Liberty then is Slavery, which is either where men live in bondage to fear because of anarchy and license, or in bondage because of excessive and draconian laws.

Or, that's what came out when I thought about what you had said, Will.

River Cocytus said...

P^2: The excess is where either the religion controls the state (as in some times in the Holy Roman Empire or other notable times) or the state controls the religion; and the lacking is where either the state or the religion cedes itself to the other.

What we are seeing now is the state trying to control the religion-- in two ways, one: trying to BE god, and two: Telling Christianity what it can and cannot do.

The ill of this I think, is that churchianity being of the same nature, double-minded, both desires the state to overwhelm, and thus be the religion, but on the same token desires to cede its religious power away.

So it often confuses me-- churchians one side want the state to endorse Christianity explicitly; but churchians on the other side want the church to endorse the state explicitly!

One of the issues is, as long as religion rests in buildings and objects, it will always contend with the state for elite privilege, property and official and public discourse.

We must not forsake the gathering-together, as the writer of Hebrews expounds-- but to do so without the Establishment? Ah, the vision of our Lord.

NoMo said...

joan - A word to describe an "Mmmm!Mmmm! Good!" kind of day here at OC -- "cosmocetic".

Anonymous said...

P-deuce -

re "exousia of the people", I think after 2000 years, given reincarnational cycles (if you're into that kinda thing), yeah, everybody's gotten the word by now.

The "pockets of extreme resistance" around the world where democracy doesn't seem to have a ghost of a chance, where tribalism is the latest and only thing - well, who knows, that might be an example of having chosen unwisely at some point in the past.

Since this seems to contradict everything I've said before, an explanation - I think the very fact that western-style democracy is even possible means that it has been a kind of archetype "floating around in the air", even before it actually manifested on earth. If that archetype ultimately represents the freedom of choice between good and evil, then, for some time now, that freedom has been available to all souls, whether they live in an actual democracy or not.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your clarifications Will. Fun stuff to chew on.

Van Harvey said...

River Cocytus said...“Vertically, the opposite of Liberty is what?

Vertical opposites are in fact, hard to grasp. For the bad one is always of two, double-minded. For the opposite of humility is 'self-absorbtion' which is a dual minded state of Arrogance and Self-Pity. The opposite of Liberty then is Slavery, which is either where men live in bondage to fear because of anarchy and license, or in bondage because of excessive and draconian laws. “

Hmm...perhaps in the herebelow… but I would expect the Vertical should be a consideration of internal personal virtues... so in between compile times here at work, my guess would by that the Mean of liberty would indicate a sense of self properly identified and boundaried, so perhaps the extremes the Excess would be the person who attempts to live without limits of (faux) self regard, ambition, or restraint, and the other pole of the Deficiency would be the person whose boundaries are set by entirely by outside references to others orders, expectations or the fear of them.


(I've always wanted to play SimCity...and have always known that if I ever started, they'd have to pry the controls away from my cold dead hands...)

Anonymous said...

You continue to amaze me!
That was outstanding!

Hmmm...does anyone else think I need some new adjectives to describe some of the deep insight I see on One Cosmos?

Will, that was illuminating, incisive, concise, over-flowing with hearty flavor!
Wait. That last one describes my coffee, and the cold one I'm having later.
But it does work, metaphorically speaking.

River Cocytus said...

Van: I'm agreeable to that. So, perhaps, Liberty could refer to the inward thing whilst Freedom refers to the outward thing-- and outward, going inward, upward, thing that is like a interconnective kind of Liberty?

Will: As I see it, the only literal reincarnation other than the resurrection is birth. That is, you are in essence 'reincarnated' through your children. No- its not you, you only live once, and then the judgment, but yet at the same time you live again through your kids.

Or rather, that thing which is in us, is made to live again through our kids.

This was most evident to me in my garden, where the plants left their seeds, and died-- to be more or less reborn the next season.

Anonymous said...

A testimonial, dear friends:
The blog's owner and many of those who comment here are often "above my pay grade" when it comes to expressing ideas in writing. So I have, in fact, been using "Cosmosis" when I visit, and it has had a very interesting effect. Now that Joan supplied the proper word, I don't just feel like a sponge.

Anonymous said...

Vertically the opposite of liberty is license -- mere freedom in the absence of a telos, which is like unto knowledge in the absence of truth. It is counterfeit freedom, without even the possibility of meaning.

Van Harvey said...

GeorgeD said... "Well I meant the leftist eviction of God ..."

BTW my comment wasn't meant as upbraiding at all, just clarifying a comment I agreed with.

(Typing while working can come out a bit snippety)

Van Harvey said...

USS Ben said..." I need some new adjectives to describe some of the deep insight I see on One Cosmos?

Will, that was illuminating, incisive, concise, over-flowing with hearty flavor!
Wait. That last one describes my coffee, and the cold one I'm having later. "

Don't we all!

Van Harvey said...

Petey said... "Vertically the opposite of liberty is license -- mere freedom in the absence of a telos, which is like unto knowledge in the absence of truth. It is counterfeit freedom, without even the possibility of meaning. "

I think that fits what I was going for with the one extreme:"... the Excess would be the person who attempts to live without limits of (faux) self regard, ambition, or restraint..."

Do you think the Aristotlian "Excess, Mean and Deficiency" applies? "... and the other pole of the Deficiency would be the person whose boundaries are set by entirely by outside references to others orders, expectations or the fear of them."

I also have one other burning question, who wins when you & Yottle play chess? (a PayPal billing of $1.50 is on the e-way) .

Joan of Argghh!!! Cosmosis - I really resemble that!

Anonymous said...

thanks, Ben -

some jerk named "Will" posted on your blog, I see.

Anonymous said...

>>you only live once, and then the judgment<<

I can't say that I know reincarnation is a fact, but one life meriting eternal heaven (or hell) just doesn't compute for me. I just don't believe there are shortcuts on the spiritual road. Heaven is earned degree by degree, and given the complexity of the human psyche, the vast number of crannies that have to be exposed to the light and perfected, the imbalances that need to be balanced - that takes some real time, more than one life can accomodate.

Anonymous said...

The apostle Paul addressed liberty and license (quoted from faulty memory. I'm lazy tonight):

"Stand fast, therefore, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath set you free, and be not encumbered again with the yoke of bondage. For brethren, you were called unto liberty, only use not that liberty to give occasion to the flesh, but in love, serve one another."

Probably everyone can quote the second part of Paul's thought here:

"For the fruit of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Meekness(properly:strength submitted to control), Temperance, Faith; against such there is no Law."

There is such a rich meditation in the idea of Liberty which requires no Law, and yet which is bound quite completely to constraints of utter Truth.

It's a Cosmic O>k Corral that's as big as the Universe, able to hold all your hopes, dreams and visions-- and small enough to steer your own little cosmic conastoga.

Van Harvey said...

Joan of argghh! said..."It's a Cosmic O>k Corral"

Not just witty, but wise; you are on a roll today!

Anonymous said...


Still enjoying your blog, too, but I declare: between you and Bob, there's little time to comment cuz I'm too busy thinking...Skeerd to say too much! You know, better to remain silent and be thought a fool, etc.

Anonymous said...

I've been away all day and only now return to see what has been said about my theory of geographical influence i.e, proximity to the equator=poverty.

Special thanks to you, Atlanin, for your intriguing support in the form of a pole shift in the past to help account for the Mayans.

The other correlation I have noted, and I almost cringe to make it because it smacks of racial profiling, is that the amount of melanin present in the skin of the inhabitants of any given country is inversely proportional to the per-capita income of said country.

I won't even touch it with a ten foot pole, except to beg someone to refute this observation successfully. I'll rest easier at night.

As many on this post have pointed out, humans are complicated creatures and simple axioms are seldom applicable, but then I keep running into certain observations of a climatic/biologic nature that seem crude and outdated, but still need to be disposed of successfully.

River Cocytus said...

Will: I say it because Paul says it. What comes after life truly is a mystery-- though the many cycles of improvement may happen in the hereafter, instead of in successive lives.

To me it all clicks together better that way. So, the millions saved may find that they've still got work to do -- joyful work for sure, but work nonetheless. Sanctification ain't easy.

Then again, it might just be a one-off deal. Tough crap. However, hell was created for Stan and his Underlyings, and not for man. So... take it as you will.

River Cocytus said...

Mr. Socialist:

They (some African Christians) say that time and time ago the men of the Dark Continent made deals in blood and souls with the ancient demons there. Great spiritual bonds they built for power and prestige.

Worked fine until everyone else moved out of the dark ages.

That's an alternate explanation.

Van Harvey said...

socialist "scientist" said... "is that the amount of melanin present in the skin of the inhabitants of any given country is inversely proportional to the per-capita income of said country."

Well it appears your serious and not just putting us on.

Ok then. So...How does such a 'theory' work out with the dwellers of ... say ... Montreal... or Reykjavik hold up in relation to those of New York City? How about those of Siberia and Los Angeles? Or Rome, for that matter?

And how would it square with the pre-capitalist influenced inhabitants of New Delhi or Peking 20 years ago, in relation to the inhabitants of New Delhi or Peking today? Same Geographic coordinates... same melanin...mucho differenco in per capita income and education; the only difference is... Culture, Philosophy, laws and individual initiative.

The physical structure of Human Beings plays only a inconsequential effect on the heart, soul and abilities of mankind - face it, we are responsible for who we are and what we become. There are no physical scapegoats to pin our failings or triumphs upon.

It's up to us.

PrincessSpirit said...

WILL: Thanks for bringing out what I was attempting to say. So you're implying the Exousia of people in general is Democracy itself?

I should have been clearer; I was thinking more specifically about the manifestation of Exousia (Godly authority in the people) in (real) Christians versus (fake) Christians (Churchians, as River-C calls them) and the fake authority they try to palm off as real - to me it seems these two different sets of authorities are in extreme contradiction with one another - but as we know, its already the trait of the Churchians that they own most of the properties, bldgs., infiltrate the govt, influence policy making, etc. at least in the majority, although "might does not make right" but it does consume the territory of authority; the "true" Christians, on the other hand (Need a name for them to delineate them a bit more clearly vs the other type) by far do not possess the land, bldgs, real estate, capital/stadium churches, influence w/state & natl authority the way Churchianity does, so my concern is if the Churchians have the Exousia, real or imagined, it means the real Christians do not? What must real Christians do to manifest the Exousia they have?

That question has led me to study theological constructs such as Reconstructionism and Theonomy, and although I cannot agree with alot of what they say/hold true (I cant support their assertions that its ok to re-institute OTs views of slavery, female oppression, child slavery, etc. and for these views hey are outrageous!) but I do see the grain of reality & truth they are holding, which is the necessity(?) to manifest Exousia in the Body, not just in an imaginary or invisible individual-to-individual sense, but in a more cohesive and tangible economic & political sense -- which takes me right back to the discussion River-C and I are having about State & Religion and their specific impacts, dangers and supports.

Hope that helps delineate what I wanted to say. Main point is how to manifest (should we?) the Exousia if, say, "enough" real Christians in the Body have it - what can be the reasonable & expected outcome of it? and where are we NOW in relation to that answer? Thats what I'd like you guys to weigh in on and help me see...

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

WILL: Bear with me to get this out: First time on paper/Blog:

Am saying "Where is the True Exousia found HERE in our own country," WITHIN our already-established Democracy, given that although Democracy is "good", its largely Leftie controlled ("evil") at most times?

You spoke of the broader application of Democracy as Exousia available to all, the world over. Ok. But what I actually want to Focus on seeing is the practical application here in the US alone, in our own backyard, so to speak. Then, once we see that application of Exousia, then I'd look to extrapolate expansively to see if/how Exousia applies to outer territories, countries, nations, etc.

In light of your implication about the "reincarnational cycle" of the manifestation of good/evil and its incumbent "reckoning" with Parousia, then, Exousia in the Body would need to become manifest in the practical here & now itself, right? So, where is it, exactly? Real or imagined? Manifest or intangible just yet - I want to pinpoint it, to study its development in relation from AD1 to now.

Given your reasonable paradigm, then, "Where in the world (ours at least) is The Exousia?"

Now, whether Exousia is made manifest here in various ways (i.e, greater govt influence, such as our forefathers had in old days), or whether Exousia is less visible but still tangible & "exists (or is kept, known, experienced) among centered-in-Christ Believers - who are largely outside of the current Leftist (evil) Govt ways, etc. - as River-C is speaking of ("those w/o buildings still manifest and make up the Body of Christ) - there is still an interesting, perhaps overlooked, interplay between the two territories, between the manifest and the "invisible" for lack of a better word, yes?

My concern is that interplay area & ground given/taken between the two sides and how it inter-relates to the good/evil we experience here and now in our country concerning the evils of Leftism, Post-modernism, and given the Spiritual war we are in - which is largely invisible to most anyway.

Once I understand the actual application of the amount/type/details of Exousia here and now between these two opposing sides WITHIN Christendom, THEN I can extrapolate reasonably and begin to apply the idea/model to the outside world. THEN, perhaps, cosmologically speaking we begin to see WHY (not just THAT) the outer world is in the spiritual decay it evidences, to see if its just a stage as in Will's "reincarnational cycle" or to see if this progressive destruction IS the End Game - perhaps there IS not "reincarnation" perhaps the cosmological "descent of man" IS linear in this application and not circular!

G-BOB I'm sure speaks of this in his book, but I've not had the pleasure of reading it just yet - this weekend am ordering though.

So this is where my thoughts are and what I'd like to chew on with y'all. Need input!

1. So, the manifestation of Exousia SOMEWHERE in Wills paradigm is important, before the Parousia occurs;
2. Exousia, not just in "practical manifestation," which might take the form of "Christians taking back the nation, territories, govt" (such as Reconstructionism/Theonomy proposes) it has lost-given to other good-evil entities. Theres often much "talk" of this subject among Churchians & Real Christians, and how this subject relates to, finally:

3. The personal-into-cosmological manifest application we speak of here at OneC, that of true Exousia developed & BEING in a person-Believer since Exousia itself is Higher UP the Vertical and is a True Virtue, and Virtues are to be manifest in opposition to Evil.

Am asking WHERE is this manifestation of Exousia in the here and now 1) on the "individual plane" (ok ez to see most Bobbleheads & Cosmonauts here qualify for this category) and 2) on the group or larger plane? What groups? Where?

Are "we" the ones on the cusp of this "new-next" level of manifestation? Anyone else?

I can only think (hope!) perhaps so, given the timeliness of books and theories such as Wilbers & G-Bobs coming into play more often now, and with even the new emphasis on Spiritual Formation & Development of Spirit in the seminaries you can see now which didnt exist 10 yrs ago.

Spir Formation is not, to me, the "cutting edge", to me its old hash; the manifestation of Exousia is the cutting edge when I'm looking at Verticality, and the manifestation of that Verticality in the here & now.

Knowing the details to THIS line of questioning is what tells ME "we" or any group in time might be or not be "close" to Parousia, and how far or close to it we are.

- PsychoPrincess -

Anonymous said...

PP >>What must real Christians do to manifest the Exousia they have?<<

How about just manifesting on a daily basis spiritual virtues, being as self-aware as possible? Taking care of the little things, living up to the personal spiritual responsibilities we have goes a lot further than what is generally thought in anchoring the Light on earth, preventing wars, quakes, etc.

I have some idea who the "real Christians" are, but I won't really know until such time we are all given the eyes to see. I do suspect that it won't have all that much to do with what religious banner one claims to serve under.

PrincessSpirit said...

JOA Said: "Liberty which requires no Law"...Truest Liberty is, IMO, the very fulfillment of "The Law-In-Christ".

In other words, "Liberty Lives In Christ" and "Liberty-in-Christ is Love."

VAN: (Hows THAT for brevity?)

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

Hey Will,

I have to say, "we" are given His Eyes to see with now - each is at a different "point" up Verticality, true, but the Spirit is given to us already - it doesnt say in pieces, so its more about "how much we develop" to be able to see with His eyes & think w/His perspective, yes? Its a here and now application - not sumfink one must "wait to see" - either we gain it or arent gaining it.

That to me is a quality "real" Christians manifest.

I'm with you on the "real" CHristians under different banners, have no problem with that - but thats why its hard to "label" them fittingly enuf tho we've labelled the fake ones easily enuf (Churchianity, Churchians, Hypocrits, CounterfeitChristians, etc.)

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

>>Am asking WHERE is this manifestation of Exousia in the here and now<<

It's here and there in the here and now, in certain individuals. I wouldn't bother scanning official groups, organizations, etc. for any supreme manifestation of the Light.

PrincessSpirit said...

WILL: added note:

Again, I have to restate, my fault for not stating succinctly enuf:

"What must Christians do to manifest & make Exousia real HERE? meaning IN our society, not in ones self.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

Just seems to me, given your paradigm, Exousia-manifestation is where "we" are heading - now it will either be a tangible manifestation here and now affecting govt, society, etc. or it will be a largely "invisible" manifestation relegated to the Body of Believers and separate from society.

Hows that "right or good" though? Are we not given the authority in the first place in order to manifest it in here-now?

Some Christians have "accepted" this demotion - yet I think it is not what the founders intended for us - so it means the spirituality of the socioeconomics of our culture have declined rather than climbed up the vertical; but what of the opposite force - which can only be the manifestation of Exousia we speak of in order to counterbalance the decline? Is it really just experienced on the "individual" basis? If the individuals are grouped into the Body, then WHAT IS the manifestation of Exousia, even, in THAT Body?

It manifests somewhere! Just want to be able to see & study it a bit, bring it into reaity from the netherregions of thought & supposition.

- P2 -
PS: I guess I should ask/know: Are you a Christian or of another relig?

Anonymous said...

>>how much we develop" to be able to see with His eyes & think w/His perspective, yes?<<

Yes. So I say we work on the daily stuff and sharpen our vision. Then we don't have to worry about who's bearing the real Light, that will become obvious to us.

Anonymous said...

>>"What must Christians do to manifest & make Exousia real HERE? meaning IN our society, not in ones self<<

If it's real in one's self it will naturally manifest in society through the creative exercise of whatever talents one may have.

I sort of define myself as an esoteric Christian.

Anonymous said...

No matter how far America, or any other country slides down the vertical, there will always be a Remnant.

Anonymous said...

>>If the individuals are grouped into the Body, then WHAT IS the manifestation of Exousia, even, in THAT Body?<<

PP - no offence, but why are you even concerned about this? The manifestation might very well in a way we can't even currently imagine.

You seem like a decent soul, but I have to say I agree with some others that you tend to be overly prolix, which means you are *thinking* too much. Seriously, do yourself a favor by just remaining relatively still and quiet - become aware of when your mind is racing, but don't legitimize it, wait for it to die down a bit. Then see if the questions you have, if any, really have any substance, any real meaning for you.

I can assure you the real answers you seek will come out of your silence, your quietude, and not from your swirling "thoughts".

Anonymous said...

Here's to the Remnant, Ben

Anonymous said...

Aye, Will.
To the Remnant!

Anonymous said...

I looked in the dictionary under the word, "aplomb", and Will's pic was there! Twice!

God bless ye for a gentle-man, sir.

PrincessSpirit said...

Will, just asked so I know where you're coming from perspective-wise.

You said..."Its here & there in the here & now...I wouldnt bother scanning official groups, orgs, etc. for any supreme manifestation of Light..."

Made me think harder...I have to disagree w/you tho: its precisely groups & orgs here who represent people & individuals who are manifesting the Exousia. THERE is where its found. I'm able to see it more clearly & tangibly in Revolutionary American History instead of NOW, tho. Its almost like its "disappeared."

But I see groups like ACLJ, Focus on Family, etc. who are trying to manifest & move in Exousia they evidence vs. rolling over & giving in to the "stomp n tromp" of the Left.

Comparing the strength of Exousia now with that of past (Amer Rev times) I perceive its lessened. Becuz of my perception of it lessening/Leftism-evil increasing, Exousia is dissipated (Ground lost!) and for that fading of Light, I am sad of heart, mind, spirit.

Seems to me any Classical Liberal would also be grieved by Exousia's historical dissipation as well, for we are lessened when its Virtue/Light fades to but a memory of a bygone era.

1. Should we allow It to just fade away and dissipate and "be content" as the Left eats up ground? Or should we seek to make it manifest again here-now and fight harder to keep it in place? ("Fight! Fight the fading of he Light...") My Patriotism is crying out!

2. What is our duty when we gain & possess such Virtue up the Vertical? Is it "ok" to lose Exousia-ground in the here-now, yet gain it in the spiritual-cosmological (kinda seems lopsided) and "do nothing" with it? (My vote is NO!) It must be given outwardly then to the H axis.

So I'm proposing we apply it & move from individuals-up-the-Vertical to develop into individuals-forming- groups and Giving of the Vertical to here-now / Horizontal arenas. Is that a possibility? Such groups would have Exousia to manifest here-now and take back ground given to the Left.

I dont like being evils victim. I dont like that Leftism is destroying my country! I dont even like Leftie Trolls in this blog who make a mess with their evil poop! I like fighting Evil/them/it and doing all I can to refute/answer evil and take away its power, cancel its authority and take back that which belongs to us, not it. Thats the basics of "why" I grow up the Vertical - so I can give sumfink significant back to here-now and cancel evils progress.

I'm NO Utopianist (Ugh - I think they are missin a few screws); but neither am I a Fatalist/Nihilist about here-now, either. I'm not passivist. Want to see the manifestation of Exousia & Verticality as far as "we" are able to give It to the here-now, more in the group arena instead of the individual arena. Bringing the Vertical into the individual arena is what I do in Therapy & Counseling with peeps; I want to move past that and get into the group thing and what IT brings to the here-now. That, to me, is the whole point of growing up the Vertical - basically, to manifest Christ in the here-now, not just as a lone individual, but as a vital part of the Exousia & System in The Body.

Croikee, wheres the Group? We lost it somewhere - so much evil covers it or changed it, its anorexic!

Hence, we come full circle, back to River-C's and my on-going discussion of the importance of interplay between Religion & State, their Spiritual interplay, grounds & impacts here thru the ages unto now, how changing conditions in the Spiritual War (seen by state govt changes Evol. & De-evol. thru history) bears upon or gave birth to current Leftism and its evil manifestation in the here-now we all are facing.

To "win" or at least even successfully fight a War (I've been Shogun 9 out of 10 times I played) one must take or regain Ground given to Other side at some point - gaining the Vertical and applying it here-now is what its all about - ISNT IT?

Application is 9/10ths of Wisdom, and Wisdom to me is "wisdumb" if its not applied.

Or did I get the wrong idea along the way that Transcendence is far more than just gaining personal epiphanies in ones individual development? Its a COSMOS thing, yes!? So it applies to govts, groups, states, nations, etc. not just individuals.

- P2 -

Night All!

Anonymous said...

Will is right, too much thinking clogs up the Flow.

PrincessSpirit said...

Fine to think and churn...

But Application is key - and the other is useless without it!

So I've learned from great writers & thinkers of our time.

Silence is fine, but all for naught if one does not apply Gods Will out of the Silence, give of the Vertical gained to the Horizontal - and that takes application.

So perhaps you silent types need to apply more, as well?

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

Will is right, too much thinking clogs up the Flow.

I know, I've been in that state.

PrincessSpirit said...

We are all here to question, to chew to learn - so why are You questioning my questions, Will?

If you find them offensive or dont want to comment, okay. But I shall keep asking them and exploring them, and that is what I am here at OneC to do and to discuss if anyone likes to do as well.

Practical application is the natural outflow of silent meditation/thinking.

Its Active Applied Wisdom. I must ask questions & seek answers. When I have something to chew, I shall, and I'll be quiet about it. But until then, I shall also keep asking...

Whether people are comfortable with it or not, is not my responsibility. aM sorry if something offended you in my questions, or if you took offense for some other reason.

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

Now looking up the word, "obtuse"...

USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Will gave you some wisdom and made some observations.
Why does that agitate you?

PrincessSpirit said...

Am not obtuse, nor agitated folks.

I've already said why my questions are important. Why do you all have a problem with that?

Questions I've asked here today (for the FIRST time) apply in that all can be asking them as they gain-grow up the Vertical - maybe I'm further up/down than others - no matter where I am, questions will come and go about how to apply the Vertical we receive.

I'd like to see the bigger picture now that I know the parts.

In order to do so I must discuss things, question, listen, gather, sort, and you guys are the first I've encountered that will do so with any real proper insights about balance & integralism of H & V.

I've spent 15 years in the wilderness, mostly in silence. My thoughts are pretty clear, and the questions I ask, whilst not worded in the best brevity are still important ones to examine & seek to answer.

If I ask the Right questions to the wrong people, please forgive me, how would I know that? Its a learning process.

I share my thoughts not becuz they "swirl" as you seem assume: But becuz they've been mine for quite a long time, have clogged up the "queue" & need input, answers, direction.

I asked you to bear with me as this is the first I've ventured sharing them on a Blog, and as such, I admit I may not know how to type it all "neatly"; but length of post does not in any way Detract from the Questions being Valid & Important to Weigh and Discuss.

"The Arrow in the Masters Bow only remains useful Being in The Bow for so long - An Arrows Destiny is to Eventually Be Released, to Fly and Strike the Target that is in the Masters Sights."

Note: An Arrow and Bow together exemplify the here-now manifestation of Horizontal & Vertical axis'. Same true for a Sword & Hand made for one another; a Cross and Her King go together, and a King and His People; even a King & His Daughter or Son; it is the King who carries the Sword that is the Parousia of which Will spoke. The point is not just to gain the Vertical - but to BE the Vertical & H IN & WITH the here-now.

That is what I'm attempting to do. So its understandable I would ask about application of what I've gained.

Makes no sense to put all ingredients on a table then cook nothing with them.

Or to tell someone - Dont ask what to do or how it applies, just look at it, ponder it in silence.

Okay, lets just assume I've done that already (since Will wrongly assumed I've NOT done it) - Now What? Whats the practical application?

- P2 -

PS: Sir Lionheart, wish you were up, my questions would make complete sense to you I'm quite sure.

Anonymous said...

>>We are all here to question, to chew to learn - so why are You questioning my questions, Will?<<

I'm not questioning anything, I'm pointing out a simple fact.You are self-indulgently long in your expression. Trust me, I'm just not speaking for myself here.

You want to rattle on endlessly, keep it in your own blog.

In any event, a great deal of what you express is not to the point of the OC blog.

PrincessSpirit said...

Why do my questions and equally valid observations count as any less than Wills? To ask it or comment doesnt mean I'm obtuse or agitated, merely making a counterpoint to be equally considered.

Consideration & discussion is why anyone asks questions. I think I can usually (but may need a reminder at times) decide for myself when to be silent and ponder. Have been doing it all by myself w/God for years now (LOL! its gentle humor, dont assume its sarcastic or ascribe anything negative to it.)

I certainly dont tell others to be silent. So my question is: Why were you agitated with my questions and wanting to discuss on a Blog what I thought related to the current topic?

I replied to Wills comments as courteously as I know how. It would be nice if you did so to mine, instead of "looking up obtuse" as Joan of Arrrggh feels the unfortunate need to do. Look up "assumptive" also, JOA, and try not to make that mistake again, as I try to not make with you also.


PrincessSpirit said...

I did apologize for the length, even BEFOREHAND, since this is the first time I'm asking them - and yes, they DO apply to this post in particullar, in light of what You and RiverC were saying specifically. That is not fair to say they dont apply.

This time I hardly rattled on. I did try to make each word count. Perhaps I'm not the consummate artist in it as you are Will, but I am trying, and I did not seek to post lengthy today, rather quite the opposite.

I dont express the concepts in the ways many of you do with one another as I've not had that benefit, hence, I apologized ahead of time and asked for understanding as I tried to form the words to express the thoughts.

Getting mad at me for being lengthy then is Your issue, not the questions themselves?

Or is it both? I think its both that bothered you, hence you mixed both up in your reply instead of stating clearly one or the other.

Now I'm trying to clarify what you are actually saying.

> I'm freely admitting my writing is too long. I dont deny that.

> I'm freely working on being less wordy & making each count - cant you see that as well?

Its not my responsibility if you arent willing to make allowance in light of these two facts. Just a statement becuz I'm not going to bear the burden when its not my burden to bear and I'm already taking full responsibility for what I'm able to do.

The questions remain valid and to be discussed.

- P2 -

Anonymous said...


So much kindness has been extended to you over the last few weeks. It's a vertical misapplication of Active Wisdom on your part to ignore it, talk around it, and then question those who politely try to steer all your new-puppy energy into a purposeful direction.

All of us have been smacked with a rolled-up newspaper from time to time when our enthusiasm overwhelms our better instincts. It stings, but the pain of it should bring wisdom... not more questions.

Don't take offense where it hasn't been offered. Take "five" and give it all a rest. You are among friends, if you can see it.

And now, before I slide further down the vertical point grid and find my pic under "jackass", I must to work.

Anonymous said...

Humble heart.





Accept the pain of truth.



PrincessSpirit said...

WILL: Your fair critique on my length is noted, and I am responding to it - I've been very open about my "guilt" of it with others here as well (VAN).

But for gosh sakes - Give a person TIME to LEARN to do what you are peeved at them for not doing!

Length does not always indicate "self-indulgence." I've not denied I'm lengthy AND AM ALSO COOPERATING about it - I'm ACCEPTING its a fair critique, as I've observed it even of myself. So theres no obtusity here.

Just saying this one last time in case some people are not getting it that I'm getting it. I AM!! Thank You!! Its being worked on the BEST I"M ABLE!

My earlier posts here today were about content and questions and application, and I asked them as EDITED as I humanly know how to do.

Its not something I'll learn in one night, but I do take full responsibility & promise to work on it with every post I make since I realize its an issue for people.

Are you hearing me??

Perhaps then, Will, Joan, USSBen, et al needs to take some valid responsibility to also give just a bit more patience in response, as I refine and edit my posts/questions. Thats reasonable to ask of you, as well.

(I was not "just commenting" today, I asked valid, albeit uncomfortable, questions.) And I type now only to clear up and arrive at a solution & to reassure all here that I hear you and am working hard on your advice.

Please return the favor by being a bit more understanding, and it'll work out.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

Yes, JOA, I'm doing so. Thanks for the reassurance that I'm among friends! Have a great day!

- P2 -

Going to lick my poor wittle hiney now. :D

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the Remnant.....Bob recently mentioned Albert Jay Nock. This quote is from him:
"There is a Remnant.... They are obscure, unorganized, inarticulate, each one rubbing along as best he can. They need to be encouraged and braced up, because when everything has completely gone to the dogs, they are the ones who will come back and build up a new society; and meanwhile, your preaching will reassure them and keep them hanging on. Your job is to take care of the Remnant, so be off now and set about it."

PrincessSpirit said...

Thanks Mom and Dad! :D
I'll do better.

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

River C -
First chapter of Belloc's "How the Reformation Happened". Excellent short Church history, might give you more perspective and scope for your considerations.

There is no way, short of ditching parts of Scripture, to do away with the Establishment.

Anonymous said...

Like I said, PP, you seem a decent enough soul, but what you've been doing is philosophically "journaling" in OC space. You should journal privately, then meditate on it for a decent interval, cull what's really salient, then and only then post it here.

And as for your online would-be suitors - keep that private, please.

PrincessSpirit said...

Walt: Am trying to formulate practical answers to "now what?" to apply to Remnant. I know my duty to us & that Integralism is True altho will be great to read history & details in GBobs book.

Have to ask: Is G-BOB "sole creator" of this phil? Feel free to fill me in as I dunno. Am familiar w/THIS Philosophy ALREADY - its why I easily recognize it for Truth. My concepts came via another path; I didnt read a single book or author on this subject ever; but learned it by my own study w/God. I call it a different name, use other words in describing it, but its same content + concepts Foundationally (so far.)

Now am editing my def & GBobs def to "sculpt" (give) sumfink practical to the Remnant & expand the Remnant Church Consulting Ministry Biz I already set-up in place 5 yrs ago. I wrote a structured, organized map that applies this philosophy beyond these two arenas, as ultimately, it APPLIES in scope to the cosmos, not just to Christianity. I know this w/o reading Bobs book but it'll be nice to see how he fleshes it out. Will contrast & compare details of my map w/his views.

Have already been actively applying these concepts in my "TheoPsych" Therapy Models, Books, Counseling & LifeCoaching Biz for 5 years now.

Want to focus on the Group-front instead of only on Individual-front I'm already doing. Practical application concerning Group-level, further up the heirarchy & in broader comprehensive application, is what I'm asking about - thoughts on that aspect are welcome.

Am looking to expand my existing Church Consulting biz, hence my focus & Qs on application to Groups within the Remnant is my next logical developmental step.

Hope this computes. I'm on "space probation" (LOL!) :D

Did Albert Jay Nock write a book BOB quotes from? Maybe it will address my Qs, at least a place to begin. Thanks much for heads up, Walt!

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

I dont "journal" here Will.

You've gone far enuf - stop being angry.

ALL of my questions today are practical and have a point/reason - there was no journaling and you are
out of line now. Swat your own behind now that you've swatted mine and I've accepted it.


I think most people know the suitors are a "joke" thing, btw, just your worship of Yottle.

PrincessSpirit said...

WILL, I think you're also a decent enough sort as well, and I learn alot from (most) of what you post (the poems are rather long).

But I will not accept "more correction" when I've Already Accepted it and Addressed it enuf. No need for you to continue to beat a rse or overdo it, now. Rest & Meditate. :D


Anonymous said...

Oh heck, now we all have to go look up "tedious" again.

...and ungrateful, clueless, childish, demanding, COMPLETELY SELF-ABSORBED, and most likely, "single" for quite a while longer.

PrincessSpirit said...

What you call "tedious" I call standing my ground. It certainly does not mean you have the right assume I'm ungrateful or anything else. You are not being overbearing, etc.

As I've stated often enuf, I'm grateful and humbly accept the advice & discipline given. But I will not condone anyone going overboard, either.

Hope thats clear enuf. I would do the same for anyone here.

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

Truth hurts and leads to denial and projections, or it hurts and transforms...

PrincessSpirit said...

Correction: "You are now being overbearing, etc.

As if no one here is never any of those things either, and as if name-calling is sooo adult & grown up?

Thats tedious & childish and what I'd expect from Leftists or inty.


PS: Be helpful & input on the questions I've asked. Unless you WANT it to deteriorate into a "personal critiquing" thing which is silly. Lets instead keep focused on the content! You've all criticized me enuf now, and its received. To continue to do so is stoopid & trollish.


PrincessSpirit said...

USSBen: There is no denial here. I've heard and answered & received. That not denial, clearly.

I've also stood the ground I feel is necessary about the questions. That is also fair.

You guys are now being unfair. Move on! Its not personal and there is no need to keep doing criticizig me unfairly past the salient point already reached that I've addressed.


River Cocytus said...

Good gracious people!

The Exousia is manifested through individual and communal righteousness. It is not enforced from above by man, but convicted from within by the Spirit.

By communal righteousness, it is simply 'confess your sins to one another'. Without it, it is easy for men to become double-minded and project (self-righteousness.)

Leaders are necessary, but only as functions, and only paid/titled if necessary and effective. Take a look at how much it costs the church here, in Europe and so forth, to make a single convert. If any business paid that much, they'd all jump off the roof.

Sorry I wasn't here. It seems like all the conversation happens while I'm away!

Sal: As for the Establishment, I simply meant the structure of Church buildings, Priests, Bishops, etc. They are a literal officiation of a functional role -- and have in many cases lost their function. I will never 'throw out' scripture-- but I will also not use it to defend a tradition of man.

River Cocytus said...

So, I think the evidence of the Exousia would be people moving towards God-- whether it be through a deeper understanding of Him, the doing of Good work, etc, etc, etc. The 'Good' work of course is not merely 'works' but those prompted by Truth and Faith.

phil g said...

Per Will's advice, the sheer length of your posts, not to mention the manic style of the posts, causes me to simply scroll on. For those posts that I have pained to read through, there seems to be something there worth pondering. I just do not have the patience to wade through the haystack to find the needle of the point. You either need to get to your point more succintly or risk being ignored.

Warm regards

phil g said...

...and who the heck is Phil G to suddenly jump into the fray??? I'm part of the loyal and mostly silent peanut gallery that stops here daily, but comments rarely.

I'm but a lowly consript of OC's growing army.

A mere spiritual 'young grasshopper'.

I work to know Truth and support Truth whenever and wherever I can through my daily encounters.

Now back to the cheap seets to watch the show.


PrincessSpirit said...

Hi River-C! I knew you'd "get" what I'm saying, but I'm focusing from the level of communal outward. I suspect strongly Gbob describes some such application in his book. Am asking to see if anyone has thoughts on that aspect of manifesting Exousia ABOVE/OUTWARD FROM the Communal/Church level. I use Exousia to mean the "God-given ability & authority." I dont question that churches & groups have Exousia; I question the application and how it affects the state govt, economy, societal structure (as in: Should we form our own "super community" or blending of communities) kind of like Taize or other communities are doing in linking to one another across the globe. Usually, at this level, it crosses into Denominational development.

I'm interested in what that looks like, not to suggest creating a new denomination, but how it plays out practically over All denominations, with the goal in mind to see if there is possible completion of the Reformation Luther began that is still not finished as yet. I do have a goal in mind for asking such questions. And I have a map of what it would look like, but some pieces are sketchy and was wanting some input if anyone has anything useful to add.

Thanks for your input. I want to continue to talk about the relig/state thing but I think we should move it to a different arena like email.

I have thots on what you wrote in this column earlier today, but am not feeling welcome to share them at this time given the current conditions, etc. You can go to my profile and email me from there if you'd like to continue our discussion.
Thanks for your input, am just trying to clarify it, hard to do on blog.
- P2 -

River Cocytus said...

James Rutz actually examines the larger exousia in This Book.

It is well worth reading for those who doubt the literal power of God -- and those who are concerned that the Church itself has or is failing.

You don't have to believe every miraculous account - his goal is not to make you believe a particular set of 'things' so you can join a particular sect.

Its really kind of open-ended-- addresses Christianity in the world as a larger force.

It might be what you are looking for, Prin.

Anonymous said...

Phil G-
Welcome to another magnificent day (and night) at the One Cosmos school of hard knocks.
Unfortunately, some doors aren't opening.

I'm mirrorly an 'owd grasshopper'.
Or maybe a cricket.

Lisa said...

Once again, I am late to the party. I must also confess that I not always familiar with Christian terms as this is not my background but really enjoy the process of learning new ones. So, exousia was a new one. From what I have found exousia means authority but also liberty. This seems to be a double-edged sword. In my very limited experience, I have found it very difficult to impose authority on anyone, let alone myself. Now, liberty has been much easier! ha ha! Liberty without authority generally produces chaos but authority without liberty produces resentment, anger, and violence. Perhaps I am coming to a wrong conclusion but it seems that true exousia can only be found within and not from some outside source such as church or state. If enough individuals manifest this exousia and lead by example then it will spread. I always seem to end up back in that spiral of paradox.

P2- Just remember to breathe. It is more important than you realize right now. Meditate upon the importance and spiritual component of the breath. Things can become a lot clearer if you give your mind some space and oxygen!!! Things will unfold and be explained to you when God feels you are ready to handle the responsibility. One day, if you are lucky, it will just click!

Lisa said...

Hey Ben, when is the next installment? I need my fix!

Will/Cybil- Man, you crack me up! Creating all these personas just to have someone to argue with!!! How do you find the time? ha ha ha! (Big smiley face with teeth showing!)

PrincessSpirit said...

River-C! Knew youdd get what I'm saying. Am focusing from level of communal->outward. Suspect strongly GBob describes some-such application in his book. Am asking to see if anyone has thoughts on manifesting Exousia OUTWARD FROM Communal / Church levels. Exousia meaning "God-given Ability & Authority to lead/rule" as our forefathers knew it to mean.

Lets say: Integralism IN the Body IS the active manifestation of Exousia out into society (i.e., the Vertical and Horizontal combined & manifest societally.) What will that look like structurally when Integralism manifests in our state govts, economy, societal structures, communities, etc.?

THAT is the outward application Integralism itself can certainly reach & achieve, waaaay beyond an individual, to manifest in a society & state govt against Leftism, not hiding out within a Leftist-controlled society, state, govt, etc. It will move at some point from personal app into societal app/i.e. groups.

Actively APPLY this Integralism you know/have in your heads. See it in actual Horizontal manifestations. Its probably what we should have been doing all along so we wouldnt have lost so much ground to Leftism & other -ISMs. Realized Integralism puts us back on track in so many ways. Not Utopian at all, but DOABLE therefore, worthy to be looked at and fleshed out. It stands in contrast to Leftism and actually stems its progressive sin & tide!

Theonomy had a grain of truth but was never a "doable" alternative - but here is something that IS doable! Thats why other people try to categorize it as a Political movement, not realizing its first a Spiritual one.

If Integralism manifests IN The REMNAN BODY With EXOUSIA: then the combination is assuredly a most powerful ally in the War against Leftism & evil itself thats certainly worth SEEING & noting! This was why I asked the questions I did earlier, to get to this point. (I was not just journaling, I swear! LOL!)

Guess I should ask GBOB himself if you guys arent gettin what I'm saying.

RIVER-C, our little discussion on State vs Church sparked this whole idea "How would Integralism alone affect the state at a group level as it develops; and then how does Integralism With Exousia in The Remnant then affect the State as well?"

Perhaps there are ways we do not see its application very well...what I'm trying to describe may be one of them & is certainly a worthwhile answer to Progressive Sin of the Left & their insanity - thats the topic & here is what I wanted to contribute as an "answer."

People might not care if "Integralism" into the political arena (and other arenas) happens in their day now or not; but more generations are coming. Why not prepare & work with what we have been given by God? Its "better" to just allow Leftism to have its way & do nothing?!? EBurke & maybe Van agree on the obvious answer - so do I.

What I describe here (and have no name for it) is certainly something to discuss and look into, for it IS the manifestation at the group layer of Integralism & Exousia (authority). Its not just some airy-fairy idea, and its in Scripture!

I'll continue this elsewhere. I needed to ask questions & get this main idea out here as it relates to this particular post. I might forget it or never get the chance again!

If this offends any of you due to length, my sincerest apologies.

I'll humbly bend over and have another "paper smacking session" if thats what it takes to get your attention on what I'm saying! :D

RIVER-C, would like to continue discuss the relig / state topic but its wiser to do it elsewhere like IM or email instead of on thread. If you want to continue, please go to my profile & email me from there.

I need help in extrapolating this stuff & applying it. If what you all think is true really is TRUE (and IT IS, trust me!) it will manifest in the BODY in the not so distant future and bring about something Extraordinary we've never seen before, except perhaps the echo of it during the founding of America. It reaches a bit above Classical Liberalism, but it also would CEMENT Classical Liberalism/Conservatism in place so it would not fail the way its already failing against -ISMS and Leftism infections.

See? Its AN INOCULATION. This is hardly "journaling!"

The point of Integralism is not just for people to have it individually; the point is where it MOVES (TRANSCENDS / MANIFESTS) from individuals INTO the H-axis arenas & then into other levels.

Its tough on a Blog to discuss Visionary topics that break open new ground others may/may not see or care to know or discuss. I see it, even if I dont give it proper voice & wanted to contribute to Bobs topic. NEEDED to get it out. Thanks.

- P2 -

there was a mistake and this posted twice but after i added material. Sorry for that, looks like my browser pulled a fastone on me. PhilG, yes I hear yah. THIS is the best I can do.

PrincessSpirit said...

Lisa, thanks for advice Sis.

Simply put: Exousia in manifestation active HERE-NOW ... IS ... Integralism!

I see that! "Now what" is my Q/concern.

- P2 -

Van Harvey said...

Joan of Argghh! said... "I looked in the dictionary under the word, "aplomb", and Will's pic was there! Twice!"

I don't think I've had the pleasure of hearing that word since... had to be a black & white movie. Thanks.

BTW, whose picture did you Expect to see there? Duh.

PrincessSpirit said...

RIVER, Thanks, I've read Rutz book, all it did was validate what I'm saying, and thats okay; but I'm looking up beyond that level to a real reality manifest here for our future generations - as our forefathers looked to our own future certainly when they planned our nation & structure.

They'd roll over in their graves today no doubt to see Leftism-ad-nauseam.

PhilG, no problemo! I hear yah and appreciate the input very much. AM trying...

How ironic: ALL my other posts I was "just being me" - goofy, warrioress, etc. But now when I actually have something of importance to say...I get ganged up on. Oh well. C'est la vie.

All I can possibly say is: "Thank you may I have another?" (LOL!) :D

and "Here I stand and can do no other and witness no other Truth than what I've shared here today." - P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

Oh Lisa, you found out my *Secret*

Will is actually PsychoPrincess! :D


Am taking my burning behind to lunch now and I'll eat standing up, Thank You! :D

Van Harvey said...

I'm probably late to the discussion, only down to about #50 (Man o man you people stay up alte or get up REAL early!), and I can guess below me there's some remarks to this, but...

PsychoPrincess said "Made me think harder...I have to disagree w/you tho: its precisely groups & orgs here who represent people & individuals who are manifesting the Exousia. THERE is where its found."

It is individuals where wisdom (or folly) is to be found. You may be able to track it through organizations, but mistaking the two is deadly.

Attempting to DO anything about Individuals possession of either, through anything other than discussion and education (barring physical dangers & associated relevancies) is to mistake the nature of free will and soul, the proverbial path of good intentions which leads straight to H E double hockeysticks.

[BTW - good job on the Brevity, next up - Consistency ;-) ]

Van Harvey said...

Phil G said... "...I'm but a lowly consript of OC's growing army."

Lowly? Nay, Remnant!

Van Harvey said...

Lisa said "...Liberty without authority generally produces chaos but authority without liberty produces resentment, anger, and violence."

Seems it comes from understanding both the ends,and the means must complement eachother, then you do what is Right Because it IS Right... and not even Because, it is Right, and through understanding that thoroughly it is what you just DO.

The person that manifests that exudes authority, they don't just have authority - they are Authority.

And they experience Liberty, the true Liberty that comes not just from wisely following wise rules, but from not even wanting to do otherwise - they ARE free and at liberty. It is only in the view of those who still want to do the unwise thing, that they seem to be constrained by 'rules' of conduct.

I haven't looked into Exousia/Parousia in a while, but I think that is the continuum...?

Van Harvey said...

PsychoPrincess said "...THAT is the outward application Integralism itself can certainly reach & achieve, waaaay beyond an individual, to manifest in a society & state govt against Leftism, not hiding out within a Leftist-controlled society, state, govt, etc. It will move at some point from personal app into societal app/i.e. groups."

I hope I mistake your intent, but to me that sounds like Leviathon and it makes me shudder.

Govt can only protect propper Individual Rights through the civil, judicial and military. Any attempt to expand beyond that is gauranteed disaster.

The people must be responsible for their own morality. Individuals should stand up and say what they see to be Right and Wrong. The attempt to expand Govt into that arena... there be dragons.

River Cocytus said...

Well, I'm rather stumped, then, about the exousia, not really knowing where to go from the Church.

However, I think that if the real Church is an extension and interconnection of the exousia in each believer-- then its form as a society would extend outward from each individual as opposed to being from outside in. It would be a Kingdom, for lack of a better word, Where Christ was King over all.

That would be my best guess based on what I understand -- imagine (if you will) a society in which each person makes Christ King?

Some would think of it as a nightmare, I guess. But it might be literally as it was said: "No man will say to his neighbor, 'know the Lord', for they will all know Me, and My law will be written upon their hearts."

One of the key heresies of the past was to claim that this 'kingdom of the spirit' -- i.e. each man having the law of God written upon his heart -- had already come.

Regardless, the order would have to go Individual -> Church -> Society for the 'deepening' of the exousia.

Van Harvey said...

River Cocytus said "...Regardless, the order would have to go Individual -> Church -> Society for the 'deepening' of the exousia."

As I said, maybe I've mistaken the intent here.

Surely when a society is so composed of Virtous people that it goes without saying that anyone you meet is Virtous as well, certainly that would be... well, Utopia - which seems outside the power of men to politically create. yearn for? sure, improve themselves in order to be worthy or it? sure, work to create it politically? Scary. But attained to through individuals becoming Virtous from within? Fantastic!

My only concern is that the order be All Individuals -> Church -> Society, and not
Some Individuals -> Church -> Society -> All Individuals Must

If I've misspoken... exousia me.

ximeze said...

RC said: "then its form as a society would extend outward from each individual as opposed to being from outside in. It would be a Kingdom...

I'd say you nailed it with that.

Since you are pondering these things, let me throw some other stuff into the mix.

You concluded the above with: "Where Christ was King over all."

To me this begs the question: what do we do with all the folks in the OT? Do they just get thrown out because they didn't "know Jesus"?

I am familliar with several "explanations", but they all strike me as more convoluted than necessary.

What if the formulation of the "question" needs to be reframed? Might it not be: those who "know the Logos" and are faithful to It?

Isn't the historical Jesus the Logos made flesh? How do we account for the written records of humans, clearly concerned with the same questions we discuss here at OC, who predate or are outside the Judeo-Chistian frame?

Is our own Lisa "out" because she is not a "follower of Christ"? Am I "out" because I'm more interested in the Logos than Jesus?

These are dangerous waters indeed.

River Cocytus said...

It is possible to know Christ without knowing him Literally. Given the chance, I think it would be far greater to know him literally than just as Logos-- (God as it versus God as He.)

C.S. Lewis deals with this issue in The Last Battle.

The answer is: Whether you are 'in' or not is between you and God-- (it is said that the Judgement belongs to Christ, who is also the only one who can Pardon.)

At some point we recognize that the Unknowable things are actually A thing-- and then that in some strange way they are yet Knowable, etc, etc. At some point, one must (I would perceive) develop an I and Thou relationship with God-- which is something that many Jews (though they do not hold Jesus to be the Messiah) understand.

The complexity of the issue simply is, only Christ himself knows who it is he knows-- so to me, the safest bet was to go with Him.

As for the aspects of Christ, there are really two primary ones: Savior and Lord - understanding Savior in essence is accepting the sacrifice -- kind of the condition necessary for salvation -- and even if we don't accept him as Lord now, we're all going to at one point (every knee shall bow and all that.)

Christ of course being part, or an aspect of, or the very essence of, the Logos.

How one is actually saved is simple, and yet a mystery. Which is why I think no explanation really works well.

Because to 'have Christ know you' is to be saved. NOT-- keep in mind-- NOT just to know who Christ is.

So to figure out if Christ knows someone you'd have to ask him.

Maybe Petey can drop a line to the King.

River Cocytus said...

society I think is the combination of spheres, probably these six:
God and Man
and... sixth I can't remember. Oh well.

So the State's problem often is, it mistakes itself for the society. Just as in other strange twistings like Communism where first the Family is sought to be made the whole of society, real theocracy is where the Church (that sphere, not necessarily of a particular religion) tries to be the whole of society, etc.

So the best state is the one that does what it is supposed to do-- no more, no less. This is one reason why I am of a Libertarian bent, or at least a Classical Liberal one, is because if the law of God is the law of Liberty, then as above, so below.

The state ought to promote maximum liberty. Naturally, which is misunderstood I think, this does not mean 'lawlessness', 'licensiousness' , or other perversions of the idea. Libertine and Liberty are NOT the same idea, either.

The problem we might have in figuring out the best state is, while the 'abstract role' or the archetype of trinity is impressed upon all social institutions, like the prism splitting the light, each of the social dimensions has its own rules.

One failing that people have had is to try to apply the rules pertaining to the Church (as is outlined oft by Paul) to the state, the family, the work world, etc.

Also note, scripture in general does not, beyond the old testament, contain specific rules, arranged in a neat fashion, pertaining to the six spheres.

There's also a tendency to get 'stuck' in the old testament-- forgetting entirely that when Christ fulfilled (if you believe it) the Law, some of the Laws laid down (such as eating prohibitions) became pointless.

I.E. there's no need to be ceremonially clean to make the sacrifice for sin-atonement because the sacrifice is already done, finished, over with.

But you won't get that understanding if you don't view it as a whole and are not careful to note to what a rule pertains.

For instance, the father is the spiritual head of the household.

This means, that pertaining to, for instance, Labor, he does not have to be the biggest breadwinner.

To wit, the father's spiritual headship does not enslave but liberates.

Etc. This is a kind of long one. I think the sixth sphere was 'community' which refers to inter-family but still-direct and non-religious relationships.

I think the founders had, however much we think of them as what we'd like to be 'Christians', great discernment about the social patterns of God.

Lisa said...

Speaking for myself, I just substitute the word Christ for God and I can dig it. I look at it as a way of allowing my tolerance for other points of view to become stronger and truly try to embrace the good aspects of all true religions. I don't mind if others think I am going to hell because I haven't accepted "Christ". That is more their problem than mine. I just have a problem if they are actively trying to send me there! ;0)

ximeze said...

RC & Lisa:

Very satisfied with your responses. I can dig it too.

Just wanted to see we were dealing with some kind of "fundy" issue, for want of a better word.

Ain't Language Grand!

PrincessSpirit said...

Hey Guys, just got back.

RC: You got the order correct. "Individual-->Church-->Society. You impress the heck outta me. Go Brother Go!

VAN: I understand your concerns, but rest assured - NO I was not speaking about it the way you thought of it or the order you mentioned. It would have to be the way RC proposed.

Not "all" individuals would actually want to be part of it. Leftists would definitely not want to participate. So theres a whole spectrum of Atheists, Secularists, Lefties, P-Modernists, etc. who dont have to opt for it. It can be a contained type of thing.

RC had it right on target when he said "Its a Kingdom" establishment - it doesnt mean "Heaven comes to earth" but what it does mean is more along the lines of what Israel - had they kept the Spiritual relationship & connection w/God strong & pure & not gone willingly into Hypocrisy that leads to Apostasy - they would actually be closer to manifesting this type of societal transformation as they were originally meant to do so.

Instead, the "birth right" is passed along or negated due to sin (especially when Apostasy is involved) the "next in line" gets it - that would be Christianity. They get the birthright & positional identity in the Kingdom since Judaism abrogated it (lots of people disagree of course) & have basically given it over to the next in Spiritual birth order.

Ximeze: Good question about the Logos - I think the Logos as you are using it means God + is the Word; but remember as RC, again on target, pointed out Christ IS the LOGOs - so is God. So I think it would be "semantics" but it could easily be included. Even the "unsaved" people could be included if they choose to be - God often speaks and does things thru unsaved peoples. Muslims, technically, could be part of that society as well, so there is "room" and very broad application of who would choose to be included.

Main thing is to have an active relationship with God, where its "personal" & relational, not just in the head or Gnostic. Head-limited people arent real "spiritual" anyway so Integralism is not going to be appealing nor attractive to them since it combines Spiritual, Metaphysics, Philosophy and Religion elements. It just wont appeal to them & they wont "get it" until they understand a bit more about God & know Him in a personal way. Hence the need even then for outreach and education of others if others wish it.

Without a personal relationship w/God, there's not much Exousia a Gnostic or a Pharisee can actively manifest.

God gives each believer a measure of His Spirit - so a believer will manifest that measure, no more, no less, until they grow & gain more up the Vertical.

God can also work IN & thru unbelievers,too, so technically even the "unsaved" (like Muslims, etc.) can still be part of such a society & not be "left out" nor excluded. I believe personally each person will be given Exousia to manifest according to where he "is" on the Vertical axis of Integralism. Makes sense -> where you are Spiritually with Integralism is precisely what you are able to manifest of Exousia. Logical.

The Bible has much to say about the Identity of "Gods People" and we should include everyone who wants to be part of that, not just limited to Christians alone. But I dont think satanists & such will want to be part of that society & spiritual condition, not hard-core ones anyway. The ones closer to "the line" of conversion to Belief in God & who advance Spirituality up the "good" side of the Vertical will be that much "closer" to God & that much further away from satan/evils spiritual power/hold. Satans hold on them will be less; the bonds are easier to break then. I suspect many will "cross-over" and want to become part of this type of society.

Think of the society produced as what our Founding Fathers imagined would come to Fruition - and then Amp it up 500x in Spiritual power & purity, minus alot (but not all) of he heresies & evils that have plagued mankind thruout history & civilizations. Finally, we'd have a stable, DECENT (waaay less crime) Healthy Civilization, probably the best we could possibly ever achieve at any time in history on earth. Its not "heaven on earth" - that is to occur at a time in the future as an event - but it sure is a great alternative to what we have now.

I for one, would like to see this type of Liberty to be able to choose a new choice / better alternative, rather than continue to live UNDER the shadow of Leftism - instead of living UNDER God as our forefathers intended for us originally.

We've gone off track, and somehow it needs to be rightened. This type of plan is the best I've seen of any. Theonomy & Reconstructionism "intend" to develop the same type of society - but using their theology & principles, it wont happen. They have heresies built into it that will "rot" it from the inside. Frankly am surprised they have not tested & "critiqued" it better than they have. Had they done so, and refined it, they might have reached a similar finding like this one I propose.

After this type of society is established, with more of them around the globe, also - the condition of meeting Exousia-before-Parousia will have been met; once that is met, Parousia which Will spoke of at beginning of post will likely occur within that time frame.

We are Talking:

> Future generations would be able to Have the Choice to Live in a very different society than this current one. Again, not perfect, not Utopian, but Healthy, Balanced, Spiritually Powerful, Definitely more "loving" or at least Respectful, etc. It IS a picture of what we would BE now if Leftism and myriad other -ISMs had been successfully refuted and rejected OUT of our society instead of them being incorporated into it as they've been.

-ISMS can be easily predicted as we now know Evils Systemic structure & can map well how it replicates itself.

Leftism itself can certainly still exist, operate & function - just we would finally have the liberty & authority combined together to have a better "answer" than we do now.

Lisa, VERY GOOD points you made (proud of you for that as these are Foundational/Absolute Truth Principles you wrote of!):
1. "Liberty w/o Authority" = Chaos. Thats Leftism & where it will naturally lead, as they dont give one wit for Gods Authority. They scam on God & counterfeit him. This principle is already manifest in the world & here in USA. This leads to War.

2. "Authority w/o Liberty" = Anger, Resentment, Rebellion, Revolution, and also Civil / World War. Dictatorships, Hitler, etc fall in this category.

BOTH of these "groups" are excluded automatically from Integralism; hence they are also excluded from manifesting Exousia, and you dont have to be concerned they will join it. They might try, but they wont "get it." Both are excluded naturally as they dont have the "good" Spirituality ability up the Integralism's Vertical axis in order to manifest Integralism or Exousia.

All they can manifest (and already do) is "Evil-Integralism/Exousia", and for them even thats limited & just a copy of Authentic Godly Exousia.

Hope that answers some questions = Really GREAT to see you all tearing into this, I really need you to "rip it apart" (like a consumer test panel!) The goal is to "pare this down" until nothing but the Pure Principles of it are left, sharpened and honed and as pure as possible. If it is Absolute Truth, it will stand all the stronger the more it is "annealed" in the Refiners Fire and also "inspected" by us.

Our Forefathers came close to achieving this actually in the early days of our nations formation. However, if one is not educated and on guard against knowable Heresies, the Heresies alone, by their own progressive power develop and infiltrate sort of automatically and will seek to destroy whatever is Godly here from the inside out.

No Theology is without heresies, so the goal is not to achieve a perfect one; but the goal of achieving the best one we've ever known is still within our grasp - especially now that Integralism is being discussed and coming on as a very strong contender. When Absolute Truth Principles, and the "things of God" manifest in the here-now, extremely kewl things happen to the people and society where it manifests. These manifestations of miracles is what Rutz book speaks of & the Bible speaks of it occuring thruout societies in many places as well. What did we think - it just disappeared? No, God is eternal, its still part of Him. Question is: How much (as a whole society/group) are we a part of and in Him?

Integralism is the input-ticket, and Exousia is the output-manifestation of internal Integralism - does it get any better than this? I cant imagine!

From a distance, such elementary visionary subjects we speak of right here (This IS Deep!) seem "mysterious" to our eyes from this angle, time, & place; but when viewed from closer to the Source (God/Truth) from UP the Vertical DOWN to where we are now, then they are no longer so mysterious, and can be known/Known, and related with from a very different angle than where we are now, not so linear, more holistic & dynamic - more manifest.

If this not be the higher "goal" and accomplishment of Integralism manifested in a Society, then what, pray tell, would be?

The integration of Godly/Truth Theology, Godly/Truth Psychology, Godly/Truth anything is what I pursue & study and ferret out from Scripture - so that our people (God believers) may thrive instead of live like 2nd class citizens under the thumb & evil destructive influence of the tyranny of evil we now live under. WE DO NOT LIVE OVER IT AND WITH IT IN SUBJUGATION TO US. Instead we live UNDER its power, and that is growing & developing. We need to wake up and do something Godly and Truthful and find the way to manifest Absolute Truth Principles here-now. Integralism is that way.

I've never believed its our true American destiny to live under and within Leftism as we now do. I believe we have a different destiny, and its time to start seeing it and gaining it and knowing it and relating with it instead of just passively accepting "well, evil is how it is now." Wrong. The principles of Absolute Truth belong to the People of God, for they serve and exist for no other, and are quite useless to the enemy. They are for us - now what will we do with them & how do we apply them?

Thanks Heaps, Peeps! 2+ heads are so much better than one. I found your insights & concerns very interesting. I'm definitely taking notes. GBU All! Thank you for your kindness & keeness. I am most grateful for your input/help.

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

aiRC: Again, great points about the State & society's 6 areas - these areas must be built from & have the most Godly/Truth principles at their bases - or they will fail & be infected by Heresies & -ISMs of all kinds in a very short time period - we're talking only a few years!

I study in depth the rise & decline of civilizations (Anthropo. & Archaeol.) thru history so that I can learn to see the structures and why they rose or fell - usually from WITHIN first long before the foe without attacked & decimated them.

A civilization built on Absolute Truth Principles (Godly Theology, et al) - is quite the opposite from where we are now, but it can be done.

Hence, Princess is "drawing up" just such a Theology, no small feat. Its not what I originally set out to do, but its where my Quest is taking me, into new Paradigms of Psychology, Theology, Philosophy, and Religion. I study these 4 paradigms in-depth to "integrate" them within each one first, then study how they interact in different combinations together, according to God/Absolute Truth Principles found in Scripture.

Finding them & Knowing them sure makes it easier for me to do my work - things become clearer when you know Absolute Truth principles, for they are Eternal and do not change. They give you a stable base to work with, and at times I find this work very similar to chemistry, physics, and biology, and geometry. Thank God I took the advanced classes in high school and have continued my education into Masters classes and a few doctorate ones.

Healthy paradigms and structures can be successfully built on Absolute Truth/Godly Principles - and Integralism, due to its unique blend of Spirit, matter, mind & (the other one, sorry I'm tired) is one of the big links in the chain that really matter. Work cant move forward until this type of Philosophy / metaphysical / almost-Theology really manifests (is uncovered, known) so we can then gain knowledge & mastery of it & launch forward.

The Bible itself is like a grand Rosetta Stone - the living Word within it is alive, eternal. When you plumb its depths & learn how to interpret, analyze, evaluate & discern it properly (which few are taught to do) it yields up mighty surprising things - always in line with previous Absolute Truth principles. It never contradicts itself, even though it looks as if it often does. This is why there are NO paradoxes in Scripture. It does not and cannot contradict Itself. When we find these "bedrock Principles" this is how we know we've arrived at Absolute Truth the best we can find on this planet.

RC, I'm reading what you wrote with interest about the State. You have a great grasp on the political/spiritual realms and you connect them well in your application of a subject. If you havent joined Mensa, I recommend you do so - pronto! If you need a sponsor I'd be happy to do that for you.

You just impress the heck outta me. You are tenacious, and you persevere, and its no wonder you've developed this uncanny "nose for the target/higher truth" sense/skill. Even if Truth is hidden, my bet is that YOU will be the one to find it!

Thanks for everything you add here. It blesses my heart & Spirit, as everyone here does. So Glad we all share this amazing journey together - this really is the elite among the elite - sorry if that sounds elitist, just am appreciating what GBob and you peeps have developed here. Hope you are also blessed by it as I am.

- PsychoPrincess -

Van Harvey said...

PsychoPrincess said "After this type of society is established, with more of them around the globe, also ..."

I think I missed where and how such a society would be established? Are you talking about a fraternal organization within existing Gov's, or separate communities?

River Cocytus said...

Well, as for the exousia of the state, which we may call it-- how about...
The 910 Group?

Thanks for the compliment-- which to be truthful, at my best I am able to understand things that I thought I'd never-- but also often I'm stubborn as a dumb rock.

But, I'm larnin'.

Van: according to my model, no community model could possibly work for a state.

Instead, I think that it would be something that the politically active members of various states put into motion. If it is true, if it is right, like the American Revolution, they can pull it off. It might not involve any fighting- just a good up or down vote--

As I think Franklin(?) said when asked what kind of gov't we were going to have:

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

Funny how the real republics don't call themselves that.

Many peoples have gotten their own states, and at some point, they might decide to do what is right for government to do.

That is, of course, promote Liberty.

How that is done takes a study of history plus a good dose of intution & integration. I'm too poor of a political historian to figure it out, but I think that among those political men to read, Machiavelli is key.

The state in fact, cannot be good unless the people are-- and so a good state is one that is free to be turned evil. -- Of course, that is predicated on the notion that a state cannot make anyone good. Which of course is -- true.

And since the state like all other social things IS the people, the best form of government this guy can think of is:

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

PrincessSpirit said...

VAN: Since we live in a Democracy and we are guaranteed certain liberties, society itself could certainly be formed here, under the Govt; yet also as separate communities if necessary -which are still usually under the govt here.

Examples are Taize & the community in France (Franics Schaeffers community he created). These communities are already being established - just not to the extent I'm speaking of in their knowing how to apply Integralism & the resultant Exousia. They're communities built to do this same thing - but they do not know how to achieve it just yet, and so they technically fail.

"Both" is the Answer - and looking at the consequences of a society established within either of the arenas you mentioned is what we need to "see" in order to Slice N Dice it down to the barebones Foundation.

"Where and when" doesnt really matter. The where is here; the When is when people are finally fed up living under Evils thumb that they will take responsibility & right action and do sumfink constructive Godly/Truth about it - hope to God it is this: to manifest Integralism/Exousia. How its done I told of in my posts - by the educational method YOU suggested earlier today, remember? I havent gone into great details yet, as I'm just presenting the basics here and didnt wanna take up space. But the details are there to be examined & chewed over as well - every single part of this theory must be chewed, tested, pared down, spit out, rechewed and refined and tested against Absolute Truth Principles - so DUH Lefties - AT Principles MUST be KNOWABLE if we get wisdom like this going on, HUH? (they just do not get it.)

This visual cue might be easier to start from: Our Forefathers Arena: Their goals, their type of govt, what they wanted their govt to achieve, their govt of the past is NOT the govt we have now, although most think it is cuz we still live in a Democracy. Pare down the 'other' govts we've had up til now; go back in history & really absorb all aspects/views (over, under, knowing "their" govt/goals from the inside-out and outside-in) of the forefathers & the result will give you more of a concrete base-idea with which to work from into the type fo society I'm.

Again, the forefathers "society (govt and all)" would have lasted had we/they been more on guard & had defended our society/govt better against heresies that infect(ed) it.

What I present is a an alternative Society - "freed" from Heresies AND Evils tyranny - a healthy Godly society - THAT was also the original intention of our Forefathers to establish. As I've said, they'd roll over in misery in their graves if they saw what we've become & how we live under Leftism & -ISMS ad nauseam, for such was NOT of their vision.

I "live" from the concrete base but I also am a bit far up into the Abstract/Vertical (its called Communion Mysticism) precisely becuz I am so sure & trusting of the concrete under my feet, so to speak. The Absolute Principles I've studied are familar "concrete steps" to me for many years now; so like an athlete, I easily climb them 2-3 at a time to get further up the Vertical. One gains this skill/ability to "leap" where others dont or wont go, and it puts me in Abstract-mode more often; so I might forget when first explaining an idea to spend enuf time on concretenesse. But rest assured, later if I'm teaching this subject - thats a diff story. Then I hold waaaay back on the Abstract & really drill them all thru the Concrete applications first again & again so it gets in there. I learned to do the same with Scripture Principles & Verses, too. They are the concrete. But where we "go" with them with God is the abstract - the Horizontal and the Vertical together.

I only nudge the more concrete ones into the abstract; its foreign territory for them, and its not the norm for most people. Artists & Spiritual types find it easier tho, too. Its more right-brained than left brained, but left brained is the concrete base, so both are needed and indeed are beneficial when employed well together.

I've learned to Integrate both the concrete & the abstract. Today, while first time to talk about this subject, and on a blog no less, I'm sure theres much I missed & didnt get chance to explain in favor of brevity. But maybe we can continue discussing it.

I note you have a keen discernment to go over The Details - its something you enjoy doing, or you suffer it cuz you're good at it - always checking out the finer points & smallest print - and I need people w/such investigative skills to help do what they do best in this "theory" or ideology in order to "burn it pure" so it stands all the stronger. Then I can write my Books, publish my Dissertation, get my Doctorate, win some kinda big nobel or prize and party my--ooh--I mean, yeah, continue the Lords work! Thats it! :D

If you are the "suspicious type," that skill is valuable, is needed doing this type of work (developmental) and has its niche - as long you take care to balance it & "check it" at times so that you dont stay suspicious too long or move into paranoia/overindulgence of fears. Faith is the antidote to fear.

Every Good theory needs a Great Dissenter in order to become a Great theory! (i.e., Able to wisely discern, not just a rebeller/perfectionist good at only pointing out whats wrong.)

I appreciate your keen skills. I personally favor very very careful scientific research and trial upon trial of every single step when I do Theoretical Design-work like I've shared (albeit "sloppily" today). Its becoming more and more concretized by the week as it grows & develops and goes thru the "winnowing" process each time. You have some scientific ability as well, so if you're interested to rip this apart and really pick it apart and evaluate it, have at it, by all means - such can only improve it - concretely! :D

- PsychoPrincess -

River Cocytus said...

Slight correction: The state cannot MAKE men good, but it can make them pretty evil. Likewise for economies-- a state cannot create an economy, but by God, it sure can run one into the ground.

PrincessSpirit said...

RC: Now we've moved from a city/society into the State establishment. Yes - A Republique is the truest answer that I see anyway. Just didnt know it people wanted to "go there" with it so kept it contained to "society or community" instead as an easier concept to work with visually for readers.

When its time, I'll look again into all the different state structures, etc. and find what we need. Scripture is the key and it holds the details as to how to structure it, etc. - always based on Ab/Truth Principles and always based on prior example as a pattern base - that can be tweaked and adjusted - boundaries with liberty, both in balance, in all things.

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

For the Record: The society/state we speak of here today will not need to be a Fundy thing.

The whole point to this type of society is to establish a "boundaried liberty" in all arenas. While Fundys may well be attracted to such a society, they do not make up the core. The balance of Applied Integralism keeps the core, AT the core, balanced. The society itself will be balanced even tho it will have imbalanced elements like Fundys, Muslims, etc.

Just wanted to clarify.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

Good Correx, RC. Thats right. But, Psych & Religion & Philosophy (like Integralism) gives them a better choice if they choose to BE good.

I maintain all the Horizontal arenas on the H-axis are actually UNDER or contained WITHIN Scripture - meaning, Science, Psychology, Economy, Theology, etc. Their True Principles to build them & operate from are still found in Scripture. They do not rise above it.'

Its a big debate in my industry that Psychology & true Biblical Counseling are completely incompatible. But I've taken this battle arena on as I understand Science itself functions best WITHIN a Scripture-containment (when its subordinate to the boundaries & authority in Scripture to Absolute Truth Principles) instead of being found "outside" of Scripture.

Science that does not have appropriate boundary/containment is "outside" or over Scripture, hence Darwinianism & Evolutionism. Creation Science is within Scripture, and being in the right slot positionally makes all the difference as to how the science manifests the exousia even at this low level - becuz Gods Principles are eternal and apply and protect what they are designed to uphold & protect.

I integrate Psych & Theology (and other arenas) into the Counseling biz and type of "psychology" I practice.

M. Scott Peck dreamt of establishing a known "Psychology of Evil" - something unheard of back in the 70-80s. Now we are much much closer to establishing one when we approach it as Psychology being within Scripture instead of outside of it, as previously supposed.

Psychology can change the man and "make" him good (he chooses to be good). Civil govt enforces law locally. State & national govts do their parts, as well.

So my point is: Whatever the state or societal structure/govt, it must be within and contained by the authority of Scriptural principles so that it established "rightly constituted authority" in the state/society.

An actual application of this concept would be when you read the Constitutionl. It was designed with Scriptural Principles for its base, and if you study the wording, you can "work backwards" and trace through to arrive at the underlying Scriptural Principles. Such are the same stuff the society (rule, rule of law, etc.) needs to be built upon/with if we hope to keep it spiritually healthy.

Van, are you concerned with the concrete detail as to what the Govt of such a society/state would look like? If you have some proposals, I'd like to hear. I've gotten to the Republique platform and there I stand, havent really advanced it further into that arena as its just not my specialty, so some guidance in it would be most helpful if you dig it. By gum, a Princess cant do it all, LOL!

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

Hey RC, ut oh Braveheart is on!! I have to watch it, gotta go!

Been a long day but a most productive one! Thanks for your superior brainwork. You really should think about working with someone whos on the cutting edge doing sumfink kewl (like this stuff here) I dont mean from the sidelines either, I mean to work side by side and up-close with someone like GBob - its a great arena for your spirit-mind to become sharpened within and produce even finer quality results, both in you, and for the work/person you would be working with.

Can only hope they appreciate you at your work you do! GBU & Have a great evening, RC! :D


Van Harvey said...

To my question of River Cocytus and PsychoPrincess “I think I missed where and how such a society would be established? Are you talking about a fraternal organization within existing Gov's, or separate communities?”

RC answered:”according to my model, no community model could possibly work for a state. Instead, I think that it would be something that the politically active members of various states put into motion. If it is true, if it is right, like the American Revolution, they can pull it off. It might not involve any fighting- just a good up or down vote--

"How that is done takes a study of history plus a good dose of intution & integration. I'm too poor of a political historian to figure it out, but I think that among those political men to read, Machiavelli is key. "

Machiavelli? Have you read him lately? His ultimate goal was a stable state, which meant a cunning use of power to retain power in order to maintain the stability and authority of the State. Individual Rights? Free Will? All well and good, as long as you don't interfere with the stability or authority of the state. Have you considered Mohammed? He did some wonderful integrating of religion, psychology & law what with the Koran & Sharia & such. Could be some inspiring reading for you all.

Have either of you actually studied the words and works of the founders? The minutes of the constitutional convention? The Federalist Papers? The (so called) Anti-Federalist papers? They most emphatically did not intend to establish a quasi - theological state.

They worked to establish a system of laws and governmental structure to enable and restrain the people within a balanced reasoning system. They were deep students of history, they knew that the best they could hope to do would be to provide a system of government which a moral and free people could use to govern themselves effectively.

They did not delude themselves into thinking that they could establish or ordain morality, they knew the wisdom of rendering unto ceasar what is ceasars, and unto God what is God's.

RC:" according to my model, no community model could possibly work for a state. Instead, I think that it would be something that the politically active members of various states put into motion. If it is true, if it is right, like the American Revolution, they can pull it off. It might not involve any fighting- just a good up or down vote-- "

"A Republic, if you can keep it." is not the same as a republic if you can impose it.

P2 is all for communty action, until she realizes the cat's outta that bag, then "

"p2 - RC: Now we've moved from a city/society into the State establishment. Yes - A Republique is the truest answer that I see anyway. Just didnt know it people wanted to "go there" with it so kept it contained to "society or community" instead as an easier concept to work with visually for readers."

RC, listen to "If you havent joined Mensa, I recommend you do so - pronto! " Remember Bacon Boy & his buds? Maybe you can hang out together? It ain't you RC, breathe, focus, relax - this ain't you.

P2"this work very similar to chemistry, physics, and biology, and geometry. Thank God I took the advanced classes in high school and have continued my education into Masters classes and a few doctorate ones."

Great, another group of self appointed elites planning an enlightened republique. Princess, did you actually READ what Edmund Burke had to say? Not gloss him for what sounded good to you, but actually read and consider him? Do you think he was opposed to the French Revolution because they were French (not a bad rule of thumb, but beside the point)?

You list the speeches of Patrick Henry on your site, have you read the one he made when the constitutional convention was being formed up? He said "I smell a Rat!" Bet his offlactories would be a bit more charged up over what you're proposing.

To attempt to draw down religious truth from the Vertical and affix it to the Horizontal is folly and anti-religious at its core.

Am I suspicious? Yep. I am suspicious of anyone seeking power to Do Good. You talk a good game about exousia and morality, but what you’re after is power to recreate the country as you see fit. Curiously fitting on a post originally about America’s original sin. You both may think you are following a bright new star, but if you look closely I think you’ll find it’s the Morning Star – I trust that theological allusion is clear enough.

PsychoPrincess, I think you've just crossed from curiously cute to creepily alarming, and I fear your moniker is sadly appropriate. Count me as suspicious and opposed to the core.

USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

The government our founding fathers put in place is more than sufficient for liberty.

The problem is, people sin, christians included.

I don't think that the form of govrnment our founders created can be perfected by humans, but it is the best one man has come up with.

Not because of the good it can produce, but because of the liberty.

Of course most people want good, but people are selfish...narcissistic.
No system will change that.

Leftism, immorality, socialism, etc.,
I despise such, but the only way to reduce the effect of leftist ideas is through each individual citizen,
and they must freely choose to do so.

P2- 500x better than what our founders created?
More like 500x worse.

Do you really think that any group of humans can possibly usher in Parousia any faster than it is destined?
To think that highly of oneself, and your ill-advised manifesto is so wrong it's not even wrong.

PrincessSpirit said...

USSBen: For Clarificiation:

Princess never said "humans could nor should attempt to enter in Parousia."

Sorry you missed that.

I also never said they could perfect the govt of our forefathers. I said to "amp it up" 500x. I was speaking spiritually. If you misunderstood, thats okay, it happens on blogs.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

USSBen: Then lets hear your manifesto about where Integralism will take us.

Sorry, I'm not willing to continue kissing ass to the Leftist establishment as others may be content to live under their bull.

Liberty is precious...and its for all, despite this current catastrophe of evil. I dont forget that.

If you have a valid critique of what I wrote, fine. But you saying "but its wrong!" is squat.

Propose your own, then. We'll be all too happy to analyze it.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

VAN: I agree with your point about Mohammed, but I actually study Sala'uddin much more often - at least he was educated and could read & write!

VAN, again you're jumping to tconclusions and making alot of mistakes in your presumptions, here. Why is that?

I didnt recommend Machiavelli! I told you, keep it simple and think of the forefathers. What I propose is no different, as I do not believe "different" is needed. I never suggested to "improve" their model. I said to think about their model as it could have matured IF we had been more faithful to successfully fight the -ISMs that have twisted what they intended and built into this current sad state of affairs.

If you're that willing to be "creeped out" so soon, before you "understand" what I'm saying in detail, you've lost your ability to gather enuf info first before you give into indulging your feelings/fears as "judgment." Please, no need to go overboard due to ambivalence and assumptions.

I go against nothing Burke is saying, actually. Nor Patrick Hensry. Would truly appreciate one of his types as a critic for this.

Thanks for the input anyway.

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

Remember that I'm still with u grl. In Spirit, In Him...

Van Harvey said...

PsychoPrincess said..."I didn’t recommend Machiavelli! I told you, keep it simple and think of the forefathers."

Didn't say you did. Note the quotes, RC did. And I’m sure the forefathers would appreciate your keeping a distance.

Your attempt to conceal what RC came out and said speaks volumes more about you than even your reams of ramblings. And your given reasons " an easier concept to work with visually for readers." goes so well with your speaking of yourself in third person. Why stop with psycho Princess, why not go all the way to White Queen?

River Cocytus said...

Van: WHICH Machiavelli work are you referring to? I'm thinking of Discourses on Livy. It contains a great number of insights about the way men are.

As for our own gov't, it is fine-- I believe in the rule of law, so if I wanted to change something I would go through those means. As for changes, I could only see, in most cases, trying to restore what was originally made, if not through rolling things back, through amendments that restore the original principles in this modern era.

And, as far as I know, the state's purpose pretty much is just that, Stability. it can't make men good, it cannot make an economy, etc. All it can do is create the stability for Liberty to work.

Stability, mind you-- would be the conditions within which some group, like the Amish, could exist.

It seems to me like the Euro Enlightenment guys didn't listen to Nick at all, for if they had they wouldn't have screwed things up so bad.

Anyway, I'm no great political historian, so forgive me.

As for theocratic if read what I had said, the state is inherently areligious. The persons in it may have religion, but the state does not pertain to religion specifically. Thus the clause on religion in the first amendment. It wasn't JUST a reaction to England's Church of England.

The state, inherently, cannot be theocratic and work (or survive the test of time anyway) because it is weakened by the blurring of the spheres. Likewise, the state cannot interfere or control community, labor, family, church or individual.

The state pretty much functions by being a boon to good (which as it turns out, is just keeping its damn hands off) and a terror to evil (having good criminal law and an effective military.) But that is all hinged, this authority, on the state itself not being corrupt-- which is the people themselves working it, which is fed by good or bad ideas. The authority has a circularity to it; The definition of an authority is one who is a boon to good and a terror to evil; thus if the 'authority' so appointed does NOT do those things then it does not actually have authority in doing them.

So to me it explains why the state just can't enforce certain laws, and others it has little problem with. Hate crime laws would never fly; there is no authority behind them.

So part of the First is that you can't ACTUALLY hurt someone with your words, unless you are commanding someone to commit violence (or a crime.) In that case, it is not your speech/speaking that is the problem, but the fact that you were in effect 'masterminding' if you will the commission of a crime.

In other words, your speech was still protected, but you had criminal intent. And if the crimes happened.. well, busted! That I think is part of what is behind the whole 'inciting to riot' and whatnot.

Obviously the First is far deeper than that, and I can't claim to know all of what was implied or considered in its creation.

Anyway, I think that both the princess and I respect the rule of law, so I'm not sure what all of the reactiveness is about?

I think the key problem with leftists is, in this sense, that they actually don't respect what the constitution actually says.

As for the second amendment, I had a thought-- the right to bear arms, so what kind of arms? It says being that a well maintained militia is necessary... So, I would assert that the arms bearable would be those which would make a militia effective. So in other words limiting us to pistols would be breaking the second, I think.

Anyway, feel free to offer your thoughts, antagonistic of affirmative or anything in between.

(Believe me, the arguments can get quite fierce over at 910.. so I'm used to this.)

River Cocytus said...

Again, if we're talking about The Prince, we should keep in mind that Nick had a context in mind for that book. When people hear Machiavelli they go batsh*t crazy.

Give it a rest. Autocracy is structurally flawed in too many ways to count -- not to mention it is the open door for a thousand crimes.

I'm not sure what your key criticism is?

PrincessSpirit said...

Van, c'mon, cheap shot when you say "I want the power to create country as I see fit." ROFL!!

Fact: Its not like I'm already a Senator, into politics (ugh) or running for Prezident even! LOL! I would not want the Job. Its far easier to be a follower than a leader.

For the Record: No, I dont propose to create or make a state or some other bullhockey. Those who have true power in God get it not becuz they want it, but becuz they put themselves last. Yes, what the Bible says is True, really is True. Dying to self resurrects self in Christ & unto Spirit, so of course, those who practice such will have Godly power. That is why Integralism is kewl - it shows balanced power of Spirit, Mind, etc. So I say whatever "power" I already have comes from Spirit, it isnt "mine" actually, as I dont own it. And, having it already, theres no need nor desire for me to personally want or seek to "gain" more of it - Ii am content to accept whatever HE gives me. Actually its rather a pain in the ass, due to just this type of mundane reaction from people who are jealous or have whatever insecurities going on I'm not responsible for - ask Gbob if you doubt me, its why he doesnt want power either.

So please, Van, examine thy own assumptions & really hold them aside until you are knowing a person alot better before casting aspersions instead of Truth.

"Selfish-Power" is not what my identity or my counseling biz is about. But I AM about "Empowerment" of myself and others unto God/Spirit/Truth. Personally I like men running the show - Godly men, anyways. Thats their job. Its also why I study our Forefathers, I respect their Godly Spirit, to remind myself there was such a time & such greatness among men who Knew God & how to stay centered in Him in all/most of what they did, thought, and felt - daily.

These types of offhanded-things you
"assert as true" which are not true are your opinions/feelings/fears and I understand that; but they Are Not Facts & they are unfounded. In time if you interract w/me you will know me better. Then we'll laff about this! :D

Your "fears" I can also understand, to a point; but obliterating good judgment based on careful thought by indulging what "fear" speaks to you (which is NOT careful thought) is quite another story. Its poor scholarship on your part to First Assume Then Act as if they are true without due diligence - such is what trolls do, they dont employ the brain they have, so its not developed maturely enuf. We all do it at times, but should be willing to reaize assumptiveness doesnt make Right.

We, being among this "group" and knowing/discussing/learning this type of deeper Truth/Spirit are responsible to that Truth we love to serve, to correct self in favor of Truth not relativism-as-truth (it never is Truth) so we stay in Godliness/Spirit instead of in the pigpen of self.

I know you usually evidence a bit more careful thought/discretion than this, so I can only think you're prolly outta sorts, or having a bad day or sumfink. Either way, when ones feelings start to replace Truth with 1/2-truths, suspicions-as-truth, fictions, or assumptions, Truth is never served, but evil and divisiveness, is.

Any man can make a mistake, but Its the True Integralist who avoids it in the first place...And self-corrects alot & therefore learns to avoid it - same outcome either path.

I did sort of hope You'd take more care to examine the details instead of jumping into "selfs feeling-based thinkings" like this. I do forgive your hasty assertions, and do not hold them against you...becuz I appreciate the VAN that I know you Are in Spirit.

Be Ye Suspicious, I dont mind that at all, in fact I know you are & like it about you. AND *ALSO* Remain Centered in HIM in your Mind & Spirit - make sure its HIS Suspicion you have, not selfs fears that can run away with your thoughts & "master" you or takeover in replacing truth with lies. To not remain centered in Him is Spiritual imbalance, hence, bad judgments can easily come from it & assumptions/untrue assertions abound. We all do it, including me, and we need to try to do it alot less as we gain Maturity & Wisdom in Spiritual skill.

Balance in Spirit produces Balanced Boundaries. Imbalance in Spirit (Will, Thoughts, Feelings "outta order") results in Imbalanced Boundaries, which are actually Imbalanced & inaccurate Thoughts, Feelings and Judgments/assertions/accusations, lies, etc.

On RC: Comments I made to RC were for RC, not to say I'm some elitist academician snob (LOL!) Hardly. I've been myself here & goofed alot with you guys openly and genuinely. I'm not afraid obviously to Be myself. I like being down-to-earth, real, authentic, mistakes & all showing, but also skill showing if it comes from God/Spirit. I am not ashamed of His Blessing & Gifts in me, and see no need to "hide His Light in me under a bushel." That is "balanced pride" or whatever GBob calls it, easily mistaken by others for arrogance when it is not. Healthy pride I guess you call it, becuz its base/root is in my relatioship w/God not my relationship w/insecure "me."

Neither am I ashamed that God blesses me & grooms my intelligence, or perception, or any other Blessing I receive from Him. None of them are even mine; but He gives to each of us His Gifts to steward & employ in our work for Him, so I try to do it fairly well altho I mess up alot. I never claim to be superhuman. Yes, I do belong to Mensa; but to say "Oh I must be like so-&-so boy from Mensa" that you personally had a bad experience with is again unfair projection & is not accepting me for who I really am. I'm Not Mensa-Boy. But you are equating me with him in your mind and then seeing me in a negatively projected light due to your experience with Mensa-boy. Again, assumptions ruling head instead of Spiritual Wisdom & Insight mastery.

Objective thought rather than subjectivism is our goal when developing Spiritual skill.

I could say, for instance, Van is a a fearful-assumer" therefore unhealthy, anxiety ridden & not worth relating with cuz "I know them types & it all goes into the toilet." But that is me allowing my subjectivity to rule, not objectivity or Truth. So, becuz I tend to favor objectivity, I do not make he mistake to project about you unfairly -instead, I withhold my "selfs feelings" and subordinate them to God & Truth. Then I end up allowing you flexibility to make your mistakes while being able to still focus on the "true You" so I dont just reject you flat out.

I teach people how to correct self and also to integrate subjective & objective "sides" so they gain Spiritual mastery. Think: I dont see many "elitists" in actual trenches like I'm working, facing heinous evil & the horrorific crimes I help victims face (like sexual child abuse of an infant & an entire family killed by a serial killer); its not the Elitists way to suffer with men, much less face evil daily as I do and help others to even face within themselves.

I support them successfully through their worst fears, nightmares, obsessions, rage, illnesses of mind & soul effectively so they come out of it with a SOUND MIND & Restored Heart, with Sanity & Real Transformation of Spirit from evil/self unto God. Elitists just dont & never have that kinda track record - they'd not bother to get their selves so dirty!

Again, you miss seeing Who I should be able to tell this kinda stuff alone from gandering at my under construction blog. Even my "Psycho" and "Princess" nics are both obvious jokes, for I live in no Ivory Tower of psuedointelligentsia, they disgust me; instead I live with people and work with them in their filth & illnesses of mind, heart & spirit, right where an elite would never care to be. I try to practice my Faith & manifest It honestly, even though I realize I often do so very poorly. But I am committed to learning it & doing better, again not the mark of an Elitist. I share your obvious disdain for them, and even counsel a few who turn up for therapy (Narcissists Academicians.) At times, with His help, I actually get it Right. Satan himself cannot budge me at those times, hence, at such times I manifest Integralism and Godly empowerment. Anyone can do it - but not all will.

The self-Will is first-->then Thought-->then Feelings, in that Sequence; Will, centered in God, leads to Godly thoughts. Thoughts centered in God leads to knowing Absolute Truths. Feelings Centered in God leads to Compassion, Authenticity & Love with Right Firm Humble yet Bold boundariesis. Thoughts are Feelings Master, never vice versa.

So when one gets off-track or out of alignment of basic sequence, you can choose to "Reorient your will" to God instead of being mastered by selfs fears; then more accurate & centered thoughts & feelings flow & you stay away from or avoid such sins/mistakes so they dont master you and give collateral damage to others.

This is mastery of Will, Thought and Feeling hence Spirit. In this subject, now, I am Obi-Wan & You are Padawan this time (remember prev post, I called You Obi-Wan when it was warranted?)

If people try to function in any other sequence or "out of order", such as putting Feelings constantly first, healthiness of Mind/Spirit goes haywire & ill health/dysfunction IS result. A recovered Addict learns there IS a different "way" to think & Be once he gets good rehab, that he doesnt have to choose to let his feelings master him; he learns he can choose to master his feelings via Will & Thought reframing & resetting his self back to proper flow.

I believe it was GeorgeD or other poster who shared some great Scriptual insights on Fears on this post or the next Trinitarian post worth reviewing.

Bible teaches us how to handle Fear, how to answer it w/Faith in God; then we come to understand why it is that being in God (Love) does "cast out" the tyranny of fear in self/men. It does not obliterate fears, mind you; fear (proper) is needed & necessary; but fear should also not be ones master, nor master ones thoughts which then accuse others. Satan is the accuser of the brethren becuz he submit his thoughts to no one.

Being a Psychotherapist, GBOB surely also knows this "sequence" I outline of correct function of self - its not something I created, but I study it & know it like back of my hand. The usual "translation" of it by the public sphere (which loses ALOT in translation) usually goes: "Ones Thoughts Master Ones Feelings." The public sphere unfortunately leaves out the Will concept - big mistake, that...another story, another time

Integralism does not make this mistake to omit the Will.

If you dont know how to reorient self from fears - I'll include it here for anyone reading: Basically, one submits, surrenders ones fears, feelings, anxiety to God & develops trust w/Him - neoteny! Since the heart also has "its" own thoughts that often oppose Mind. He will respond & work with you & help you correct lies to replace them with Truth & Principles of Function (Wisdom) instead of fears.

No Believer need be a slave to fear - relationship in Christ to God sets us free, becuz we gain HolySpirit and He is our Wisdom & Teacher & Parent, not self.

Those who practice active relational submssion to God cannot be nor remain Elitist. See why now? Wesley has much to say on this subject & is worth reading.

In the Bible the Heart of man is both desperately wicked & is seat of evil; yet its also, when Centered In God, a fount of Wisdom & intimate connection w/God. So its evil when we are/stay under selfs control; but self-submitted-to-God is tamed within proper boundaries & rechanneled into productive use (aka Patrick Henrys skill) when under Gods control.

Relationship w/God should be able to let us know when we are in which condition at any given time (He is our Compass) - kind of important to actually BE in Him, rather than self, in order to achieve Integralism & centered Spirit.

Most Christians call this "surrender & replace, sharpens self unto God" in Refiners Fire He corrects us in spirit, mind, & heart functions. Reorienting is why He is our Captain, Parent, why we can never be Captain, why we NEED to relate with Him in order to stay on Truth-track. Self is always sick without Godly relationship.

The sequence I described leads to Skill in Transcendence. Test it out, folks. Its an Absolute Truth Principle and holds up in ALL conditions. But you wont know until you experience it and apply it with your own self first.

>Integralism< Keeps us from making these mistakes & it helps us correct them when we've made them. We all are learning & "integrating" Spirit, Mind and Heart as we grow. Theres usually a right & wrong way to do things as the Bible teaches us to apply the Right way, not what "we" think.

So if I believe in submission (and teach it to others) then having some kinda hair-brained idea that I want power to create it or rule is exactly that - hair brained phantom, not fact. I never once claimed to want to "create" such a state - I did put out here on the table the question & a viable idea of "Where does Integralism-as-a-larger-group manifestation actually lead/go?" in looking past the individual level application.

If thats "wrong", sue me then. Its allowed to be put on the table, tested and tried to see its truths or ills. And I've been transparent enuf to risk that. It isnt "my philosophy", so I dont take it personal if anyone agrees with it or not. What I wanted was input and feedback to sharpen it IF it will hold True, and that is a process to find out & seek to know Truth.

I told you, I laff at & hardly think so highly of my thoughts, hey are peon-ish to me. I'd much rather find a pea and take it to God & hear HIS thoughts on it. That is how I live & teach others to live, to put God over self, so self can thrive.

Its HIS Absolute Truths & thoughts et al which matter to me most or I wouldnt bother to counsel people to not lose but increase their connection w/God/Spirit/Truth. Hes my Master not self. He empowers us to Master self & remain-in-Him when we "turn" (repent, submit, surrender, whatever you like to call it) to Him & do it His way by surrendering selfs tyranny.

"Embracing Brokenness" book - top notch read, simple but powerful. Alan E. Nelson.

Surrender-on-God gets rid of pride/ego and transforms it into Spirit. We dont "lose self" in that process; we lose sin & gain a Refined self when we relate rightly w/God. The Fruit you receive then becomes abundant and not something you have to strive to have or covet of others. In fact, He gives you more than you could want. Likewise the responsibility to give Fruit to others comes into play as well.

I offered up what I see as Integralisms logical path as it manifests beyond each individual, into the outward (broad) manifestation into the Horizontal. Lets not just "talk it" but "see it." Then we can undersand more clearly what it is God wants us to do with such Spiritual Truths, skill and knowledge, as our Forefathers also evidenced the Wisdom to do & have due to knowing God & being in Spirit. Many of them were "Integralists" in the truest sense of the word.

- P2 -

Am sorry for length --> BlogNazis: please beat me laterz! :D :D

PrincessSpirit said...

VAN Said: "Why stop at PsychoPrincess why not go all the way to White Queen?"

Becuz even Galadriel a fictional character has sense to turn down the rings draw - she had successfully done so for millenia, so when the Big Test came she had the Wisdom to know to refute evil no matter how it sparkled.

Now you know why GBOB turns down "power plays" and rejects gurudom. Those who have "real power" dont want such bull and usually seek to avoid it, not grab for it the way Narcissists Caesars and Senators have a track record of doing. Thank God for the healthy ones among them though.

What you say here is totally unworthy of You, Van, and NOT your finest moment at all. I will refrain from answering or commenting with you further, under such contemptuous accusations as your "suspicions" are all too happy to ungraciously fling on me when its undeserved & just lies.

There is a way to take responsibility to turn lies to Truth and thereby remain in Spirit instead of self, and I've given you in previous post what I know of it, since you either dont know it or dont manifest it, even though you are acting badly, becuz I do ultimately care for people to grow & progress in Spirit/God/Truth.

My Faith in True You is not misplaced, it is as God tells me & empowers me to see you. In Grace, and for Him, I am choosing to hold your Higher Self in my mind, instead of seeing only this "pigpen self" you evidence here. I pray for Gods guidance to be yours, and that is NOT at all condescending but said with humility (I've been there too) & becuz I care for you, becuz I recognize you've been blessed with some great skills I admire, & I realize you are still growing in them.

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

Just A Follower: Thank you! Its often hard to know/see Truth/False, good/evil - yet you evidence steady skill to be able to "see" what others might miss - for that Blessed Skill in the Spirit, your Spirit encourages me! I thank you, am humbled to have your support. Spiritual Skill is always easy to admire! :D

- P2 -

PrincessSpirit said...

RC: I never once mentioned whatever it is Van is fearing and attributing to both you and I - neither Autocracy nor Theocracy, but DEMOCRACY. I understand you werent either when you mentioned Machiavelli. I know how you meant it.

Yunno how this medium is tho - doesnt often communicate the context and others may miss it at times.

Thanks for your thoughts and support. They are in no way diminished and I didnt take what you said wrongly nor hide behind anything as Van asserts. Hes made alot of them here; its a signal to me that whatever his personal fears are, they are coloring his reading and tinging the things we are speaking of. This happening, too, teaches me to look for others similar "reactions" in the future. I still think rational response instead overemotional reactivism is key to learning Truth, and if Van has let his go like this, then I know its emotional ground for him where he is not so skilled w/it. Lets give him the time to see if he self-reorients or not. Its okay, not the first time I've encountered it - and yes, it "pops" outta nowhere just like you've seen. The key is to understand it instead of reacting, educating, hopefully, to transform through it. THis to me, is what is meant by "being your brothers keeper and bearing their burdens" burdens including their unresolved emotional issues such as Christ bore from Peter constantly, yet He still saw he best in Peter.

I still see the Best in Van. And I never lost sight of the Best in You!
Be encouraged, Bro. This is what happens; we will get thru it. Lots of others been thru it too, both sides, even! I have Faith in Him it'll work for good.

- P2 -

and I'm glad to learn it here in this small arena.

Van Harvey said...

Not much to disagree with in your comment "12/29/2006 05:35:35 AM", other than that Nick (and keeping in mind the anarchic warfare of his time) wasn't looking to maintain the states stability for the purposes of protecting rights, but for the purposes of maintaining the state.

And yes, there is far more to him than the sound bite reaction to "The Prince" - still I'd prefer it that our times were more suited to Locke & Burke than Machiavelli - not wishful thinking ... I hope.

PrincessSpirit said...

RIVER-C: Pray thee do tell me: What is this "910 Group" you speaketh of often?

Seems some of the concepts in the lingo you & I are familar with and use are not as familiar to others so thats not helpful but its real, and its where we are. Hopefully thru communication & re-clarifications we can arrive at understanding instead of poop-flinging due to assumptions & reactions. I'm not sure about all the "reactiveness" either, but sometimes we wont understand it. Have to just be willing to go thru it either way, albeit limiting its evil when we are empowered to do so by God so it doesnt runaway.

Imagine Luther's horror, how he felt when mobs did this & went outta control-en-masse, twisted HIS intentions & words & books into their own version - the mob that proceeded to kill thousands in short order due to their lunacy & rebellion they refused to submit to God. Luther was horrified.

War in all forms is ugly, evil, but at times "necessary" as a consequence, as any Conservative will happily testify to while they load their rifles & guns!

Keep the Faith, Bro. Dont let the crowd intimidate you, if you can. If they do intimidate you, always remember to turn to God. (Just encouragement as I know you know it.)

- P2 -

PS: Hey Got that Bach Oratorio you recommended over Christmas - Its fantastic!! Thanks mucho for the link (my it was expensivo!) Also got the new Nickelback CD for Christmas - All is right in Princess' world when Chad Kroeger is Croonin & Crankin it!

River Cocytus said...

Agreed, Van. It is possible that at the time, the full idea of 'individual rights' was yet to be made full; plus, the state of war they were in made the state a necessity against anarchy.

-- btw, part of the reason the USA works so well is that since community is limited to those you know, it cannot grow larger than, maybe 200? So any larger organization above it (like a city) must take on the form of a state.

The USA handled this issue adroitly but making states-within-states. Up to three levels: city/county - state - nation.

It seems to work, too; So if there were to ever be a world gov't, there would be at least 4 if not 5 levels of states. Many countries have structural flaws (in my honest) that are a result of top-heavy states. Ours is (or should) be built like a pyramid.

River Cocytus said...

Also, from this idea, I infer (though maybe incorrectly) that the number of states in a community-of-states (like the States of the USA) should likely number no more than 200 at a given level. So that would mean ideally also, no more than 200 counties in a single state.

Also, the topmost is 'supreme' but the higher it is the weaker it is on its own. The governing is consensual from both individuals and the substates-- there also needs be a 'community of states', I think, on any level but the top, (at the top there is only self-interest.) But the world as it stands will never willingly enter into this arrangement. Thus, a world gov't in current conditions would be 'forced', and like the U.N, ultimately toothless or possibly wickedly dangerous to all.

River Cocytus said...

Prin: I left a linky up there to 910, at the beginning of one of my comments.

PS, I think your confrontational style can be very off-putting. I am not fazed with it because of the way my family is (and was) -- very in your face -- but I think Van has been put off a bit by it. As for me, when I am accused I try to 'redirect' the conversation to its core, and often I find agreement there.

But with someone of the likes of Integralist, either the core does not match, or the person avoids the core like the plague.

Van does neither (nor do any of the regulars here.)

That I am thankful for.

PrincessSpirit said...

Some peoople often have hidden triggers that linger hidden inside & unhealed for years. When they pop out, its prime opportunity to examine & understand them, to heal them finally. They dont have to pop out anymore & wreak havoc w/relationships. So taking care of your "internal issues" is responsible, mature & healthy. Its freeing for you and loving to others.

And its guaranteed to raise you UP the Vertical!

"No one should support ANY Philosophy or Theology without knowing:
1) Is it supported by God/Absolute Truth;
2) Where it came from (roots),
3) How does it develop; and
4) Where is it going?

Failure to Ask & Answer the Right questions that normally lead you to know the Boundaries of something Spiritual means you cannot then have Balance or Wisdom.

An -ISM is then created by default. Such is Leftism. To fail to see or examine Boundaries as well as Details is to fail in achieving Integralism.

Those who fail to do answer these 4 questions thoroughly are Blind Adherents & Enslaved to that -ISM. Such is how -ISMs are made by blind men & why there are so many of them thru history.

Always Choose to Go Vertical. You will not regret it. You will not lose but gain more than you "lose" in transformation & transcendence.

- P2 -

PS: See you fine peeps later, am hitting the slopes to go SKIING! :D

PrincessSpirit said...

RC: Thanks Bro. Yes I am assertive, not sure I'm exactly "confrontational" as you might mean. I will answer very firmly and consistently when someone seeks to abuse me, both to confront it and limit their evil from repeating. If they repeat, I confront it assertively each time to let them know I will not take their bullying, they actually must deal with it as I reflect it back onto them.

If the issue is a real one (vs an imaginary one), I will work it thru & talk it out. But if its just nasty contempt & insecure jealousy and paranoia-accusations, I firmly confront it Assertively until it stops. I believe in facing bullies and tyrants until they desist. Then, you part ways, or you actually can talk at that point. I'm committed to either thing happening.

The idea is to stand against tyranny & emotional blackmail well and straightforwardly until it desists. Then perhaps sanity & peace have a chance to manifest. If they dont, then at least I let the abusive person know I'm not about to take their bull and will face them down in it until they drop it.

That to me is Assertiveness & is an alternative to the usual immature anger / aggression / contempt cycle most employ. Still too high are the numbers of people who live not knowing Assertiveness techniques who instead flounder around in anger & reactionary retaliations (abuse). Many still mistake Assertiveness for Aggression and vice versa, but I'm not responsible for their misreading it.

I can say I'm assertive w/bullies and will face them down as long & as many times as it takes until they make the choice to stop, treat decently, or go elsewhere. If that be confrontational in a bad way, I dont agree.

The key is to have forgiveness while doing this type of confrontation. Its a moment-by-moment type of assertiveness and highly flexible. When they stop, I stop. I dont have the aggression then. But I am responsible for the Responsiveness. They just dont count on anyone facing down their bullying.

It is the same type of Assertiveness a good parent uses with a rebellious unbehaving child until the child calms himself down & makes the choice to cooperate one way or another. They dont abuse the child; but neither will the parent put up with chronic attempted manipulation, tantrums, etc. Good parents know how to weather the storm by facing it - ignoring the child bully (if you've had one) never helps the bully to "do better." They need to learn to limit self, and only learn it when faced with a stronger but flexible answer/master. This shows them they dont need to continue to be a bully, too. They can choose assertiveness.

I will study 'your' technique as its well advised & I already was doing so before you advised it, Bro! I like to study how guys relate with guys and tho I'm no guy I can learn from it. Thanks for your advice. Have a great day!

- P2 -

Anonymous said...

- P2 -

Do you serve God or your damn Ego?
Please, no answer. I will skip it anyway. Can't read you anymore. No credibility!

The therapist needs a therapy!

I wont sign my name because I don't trust you.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you work for Satan, not god.

PrincessSpirit said...

Point: I never suggested anyone "Draw down power from the Vertical" as Van grossly mistated. Unt-Uh. Thats a Huge No-No & disgusting misrepresentation of anything I said.

Its not actually possible w/God either way - but its possible w/the enemy.

Spiritual Empowerment/Skill is found as you are led & GROW up the Vertical by God alone - we dont manipulate Him, so theres no "drawing down" possible. Spiritual Health & Being In God isnt like witchcraft! The BIble teaches us the difference between the two, clearly.

So this assertion is not at all what I was saying and is flat out inaccurate.

I said, just as G-BOB says: That when you are up in the Vertical, naturally you gain more Spiritual wisdom, power, skills, etc. It is not JUST POWER that you gain. Its Spiritual Fruit - that is EMPOWERING - not "power" in a selfish sense. So of course, Fruit is for nourishment & is to be given outward to others.

Hence, as I saw GBOB write in other posts, the Spiritual skill you gain up the Vertical in Integralism MUST be given out to others - God operates on this same Principle as He gives many skills/gifts to us we dont deserve - now we can make sense of WHY He does it. Becuz God must obey His own Principles. That giving out changes & impacts the Horizontal paradigms, like it or not. This is good news not bad news for petes sake.

Its not kewl to gain Spiritual empowerment only to turn insanely around and then sit on it & do nothing the rest of life. Not Gods Way. A Tree is to grow and give fruit...

If somone doesnt understand this Truth Principle and instead contradicts Scripture then they are not understanding neither Gods identity nor proper Spiritual relationship development (Metaphysics, Ontology, Spiritual Psych, Spir Formation and Development etc.) but need to learn it, just as we learn in college Psych 101 classes how our children form developmentally so we can be at least aware parents.

Interestingly, Van said earlier that education of people needs to happen, and I agreed; now he turns tail on that sentiment and attacks the education of people - becuz he somewhere assumed I meant Ivory Tower education - which was NOT one of the examples I gave, if you'll notice. People can be educated many ways, as Luther addressed and as I clearly stated some of those ways; I never said they had to go to XYZ white tower university in order to learn something. Nope. Wasnt me. Another unfounded assumption that led to some ridiculous slinging. Jeez!

Far too many projections & twistings of things I never said is going on here. Where are the usual questions anyone (normally) would First Ask and are any careful thinkers protection against making elementary assumptions?

Not good scientific nor good detective work, as any detective will tell you. We need to put the time in and gumshoe it and do the work if we hope to ever know Absolute Truth.

Point: Please take time to Ask before Assuming. Do the Detective work and Dont Jump to conclusions & accusations. Satan loves when we do his work for him, so lets refute that by doing it Spirit-controlled or at least self-controlled.


Alright I'm done. I addressed the points I felt salient.

Anonymous said...

- P2 -
your conversation has become a bore.

You are power-thirsty and it shows too well.

If you had real intelligence you wouldn't try to fool, flatter, put down etc. others.

Anyway you are too pushy to be called a Friend.

You practice Satan's way - consciously or not. You are dumb enough to believe it doesn't show.

Frankly, you are scary.

Anonymous said...

Oh boy, go away for a few days and the spit hits the fan!

Socialist Scientist, the evidence to the contrary of your position outweighs your stated thesis.

End of story. Get over it.

Also, the idealised discussions of whatever are getting a bit long and tedious.

The only point worth mentioning is a constitutional one (with respect to state issues) -the state does not make anything, we created the state, it did not exist w/o first having to recognise inaleinable rights which come from God.

Of course it is very corrupt now, and men choose evil -so we need laws.

To kick a long dead horse, the late 19th and early 20th centuries brought us the notion that sin was ignorance, and knowledge was salvation. That men (generic) are basically good, and given the chance would choose good.

One would think, that world wars one and two would have shown, that more knowledge only brings one greater opprotunity to kill and desroy with greater effect. Man, once again chooses evil and not good.

The more traditional view that man is basically evil (sin status) and can only be redeemed by God -is why we have laws. The history of which is long and interesting.

At least we have Roman law and not Napoleanic law here. Although the left and the press work very hard to have Napoleanic law. The only organisation that regularly gets away with Napoleanic law is the IRS. You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

My sister was an archaeology major and i've studied that a bit and read even more on ancient civilizations.

The story of which is long, but very cool. The length is what usually filters out those who are just thrill seekers in the research department.

I think I should have stayed away longer.

-Coffee time


Van Harvey said...

oh, I'm gonna regret this, but...
"Van said earlier that education of people needs to happen, and I agreed; now he turns tail on that sentiment and attacks the education of people" turn tail and run from education? Please.

Ok, take note: if you are talking about creating communities such as Taize, along with RC's sympathetic comment such as
"no community model could possibly work for a state. Instead, I think that it would be something that the politically active members of various states put into motion. If it is true, if it is right, like the American Revolution, they can pull it off. It might not involve any fighting- just a good up or down vote-- "

...and you put out statements such as "Now we've moved from a city/society into the State establishment...Just didnt know it people wanted to "go there" with it so kept it contained to "society or community" instead as an easier concept to work with visually for readers."

... and this When there is already a state established complete with constitution, laws, etc... then pardon me if that sounds a bit like you're contemplating a replacement.

RC I think explained himself well, I'll put that down to a misunderstanding, perhaps with the error more weighed down on my end. If what you're talking about is an educational activity, not a mass movement political indoctrination, but actually educational - fine, I even wish you the best of luck.

But P2, I don't know where the heck you're coming from. I know your grandiose pronouncements, manner and a trully Kantian class flood of text leaves me ...unsettled. Basically where I do wade in and find some reasoned words, they don't seem to fully fit with the entire landscape - if I'm wrong, fantastic, I couldn't be happier.

ximeze said...

Van, you ARE a glutton.

Don't know why you even bother, you'll just get another, or 15 more, nonsensical endless rants, and it will be, predictably, all YOUR fault.

I also don't get why it took so long for some to get that PP is very aptly named.

I kept thinking: for heaven's sake, don't encourage this.

Likely, this comment will get a rant of its own. But that's OK, have not read a single one for weeks now, so it's no skin off my back: they are given the pagedown, pagedown, pagedown, pagedown..... treatment.

I have enought crap in my head, that I'm trying to get rid of, to actively pursue or to permit, any more going in.

Van Harvey said...

ximeze said... "Van, you ARE a glutton."

It's my tragic flaw, Flogger-itis.

No need to pagedown...
Glasr, you listening?->

-> Remember, read comments in the Comment section, and click 'said...' after the commentor's name, and Poof! Gone!

ximeze said...


You are a Prince among mortals!

I't forgotten that "click after said" thingie. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

How might I make it up yo you. ;)

PrincessSpirit said...

You misunderstood then Van. I said "we moved from city to state" meaning IN THE CONVERSATION - its easier for people to grasp the individuals-->group-->city instead of just jumping to the concept of state. It was ideologically I was speaking - NOT in some other way you've obviously thought it meant. Capiche now? :D

I can see how you made the jump - but a simple question would have cleared it up quick. It was a metaphor/symbol we were using - that was why I didnt jump in sooner and talk about state, and just kept it on city-ideology instead of me moving to the other. In no way did it have any actual meaning to imply some kind of advocacy of a new state! UGH I didnt SAY that!

- PsychoPrincess -

PrincessSpirit said...

NO MASS MOVEMENT POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION was ever said by me or RC! Egads! THATS what you thought we meant???? Horror of Horrors!

NO WAY. We told you it was not Autocracy nor Theocracy we were speaking of, so I'm not sure how you made such a wide leap - and you didnt ASK before you leapt - just ask the next time: "Is Mass Political Indoc what you mean?" and we could have solved this misunderstanding MUCH sooner.

I hope to God its clear now! EGADS!!


PrincessSpirit said...

VAN, yes you've been wrong, and NOW I realize the question was probably too high, too much for some people here to logically consider - I had no idea it would be so, I thought here would be the place to ask it and not just talk about Integralism at the individual level, but to look past it into the practical group application, as that IS where its followers will go. I said it was Visionary - and it is. But if its too much to ponder for some, okay.

The question of where is Integralism going is STILL legit - I said I should have asked G-BOB probably more so than the crowd. Its not "my" idea nor is it "my" paradigm or something I advocate. Sheesh it was a practical-focused question to get actual discussion going; I never proposed the things you are fearful of. Remind me not to talk to you about this in the future then, LOL! Its not your deal, and thats okay. Had I known this about your sensitivity, I surely would've asked it elsewhere. But no one can know ahead of time what others triggers are. I aint Kreskin. All we can do is talk it out and hope to work thru the misunderstandings. We do it all the time in therapy and also in work negotiations, so its okay.

If you do not have a real problem with what RC is actually saying, and I dont either, then you and I dont have a problem either. Except that you castigated me way too quickly, given the assumptions you made hastily.

Please - take time to be sure or ask for clarification BEFORE you do this next time, then hopefully it wont happen so much for you. I said I forgave you becuz I KNEW it was sumfink like this that happened.

- PsychoPrincess-

PrincessSpirit said...

CROIKEE, Van! No wonder you puked like you did! Perish the thought! UGH. Still shudderin to know THIS is what you thought??!!?? It is Funny now, but also ... horrifying to know you'd think THAT about me!! Galadriel pops into my mind - I shall watch that scene of LOTR with a new Personal perspective now.

I think I'm sensible enuf to know what to do with any Ring like that if its offered to me - Shove the Ring in the Pigs Snout, throw IT into the Crack of Doom, not just the ring!!

Yeah. I can see why you flipped now if you 'believed' what you thought. Ugh.

Locke & Burke RULE!!! Dont forget I know that!!

Well at least we discovered the lie being believed, and for sanity's sake, its completely powerless.

"White Queen" - "indeed"!!! ROFL!!! Oh I 'understand' now: you've been bashed by the Feminazis before! NOW I get it! That must be the explanation for the misplaced hostility. My condolences to you then, for most of them are a demasculating horde - a horror for any man to face or suffer thru. Ahhhhh now I see the reason for the temporary insanity that gripped you so FAST! LOL! Chalk this one up to experience.

- PsychoPrincess -

Anonymous said...

Uhm, Psycho? Ya might wanna check for polyps while your head is up there.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I have to point something very minor out here.

There exists NO SUCH THING as racial profiling.

How do I know? I'm a criminal analyst when I'm not busy doing other things.

The profile is of the crime. If the evidence comes up with race as a common factor -thats part of the profile -and is not racial profiling.

You then use that, like you'd use any other factor.

To let race drive the investigation is just racism.

That is also not easy to get a way with -but those who never do this kind of work, toss about media driven definitions and paranoia and there you are.

Nothing but crap.

If there is a case where someone says, "Officer Ben just arrested me because I am black!"

A couple of things happen right off.

The first thing that happens is that a statistical sample size is determined, and then random arrests by Ben are collected and examined for race components.

This is then compared to random samples of others within the beat, and within the city / county -whatever.

This will tell you if Ben is a racist or if the charge is bogus.

That part never makes it to the TV -but the "seriousness of the charges" always do.

More crap.

Examination of Muslim fundamentalists -be they from Saudia Arabia or Chechnia would be driven by the fact that the profile says that one or the other, or both are spiking high on the stats for the incidents in this crime series.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Racial profiling indeed.


Anonymous said...

Remember, looong and haaaard! Kay?


PrincessSpirit said...

My how wise and mature you are Joan of accck!!

- PsychoPrincess -

Anonymous said...

To quote a friend of mine:
"That Bitch is crazy."

she just wont give up. submission in christ, my ass!

by the way why don't you marry "resistence is futile"? he certainly even spell like you - what a circus.

I guess if you read Hoarey, Van, Joan and co's Names in the sidebar, it would mean they surely deserve their title. End of story.

plus nobody gives a damn about your diplomas, PhD, brain, talent.

Find another court. one made of witch-hunters like you to Mirror You.

'Absolute Truth' surely exist. the only challenge is how many have the gift of "Understanding". In other words, who would be able to recognize jesus if jesus were to come back? Will the pope recognize him?

how many theologians, mystics, christians?

My guess is not many. Certainly not P2 followers.

Those who hate absolute truth are admitting their own shortcoming. Others like P2 believe they know all and everything but they still don't know themselves. Or believe in their own madness that they can Fool you. To survive and become gentle they surely need to be worshipped. Nobody sane can worship them forever.

There is still hope: find your own kind. enjoy each other presence and give the rest of us a fucking break. we love peace.


Anonymous said...

I think that wif so many peopwe fowging postings fwom othews, why shouwd we twust this is Fweed? Whoevew this is, is an angwy pewson who is unwiwwing to stand theiw gwound and speak out. I don't think saying "Fwucking" was vewy appwopwiate eithew.

Anonymous said...

-f-reed with jackass mouth

I have been silently reading but now I must write today:

You are an absolute pig. You dont know nothing. I read your stupid craziness and jackass posts for long time now I notice you torture people here with your bullshits and unintelligent messes you make. You are lazy person and dont learn nothing here not even to speak English. You disgust me.

Come to my country and talk this crazy shit you do like here believe me you will see this is what happens to you:

a) we beat you until you cant walk or sit for two entire weeks
b) if you do it again we lock you in the pens with the pigs animals and dogs with manure steaming stench so you can smell and eat your own bullshit jackassery all the time and just as pigs love to do. When you talk like the pig you are saying you want to live with the pigs. Be surround by them until your evil looses its grip onyou and closes your big mouth and you learn respect instead of pighead. You are not a human being. You are the biggest disgrace to women everywhere. You talk like biggest Whore with the biggest mouth like Bible says
c) if you do this one more time, we would cut out your tongue for its evil wagging it does since you arent a human who controls your pigmouth. Its merciful action by us in service to God and peoples to silence your hole
d) come to the Mosque and talk your trash. I guarantee you they will hang you for women to see you are total disgrace and big embarassment to all women. Shamed be your name forever.

If I was your father or mother I wwould sqeeze your throat so you cannot speak and chain your hands so you never type again to anyone anymore with your sewage pipe mouth and evilness in heart. You dont even speak or learn English. You are lazyass disgraceful woman who acts like man with crazy ideas in the head. Your not a prophet and God dont got message for others through your trash mouth. You are just crazy and messed up in the head! Only thing good you do is cuss in English you dont know anything else or how to speak. You be the Big Bitch and crazyass fool.

You are sick Bitch who gangup like a jackal. I dont come here to read your bullshits. I come here to think on intelligence things. You have trash mouth like the sewer and be a disgrace to blogging world. Sleep and eat with the pigs as you talk like the pigs talk. You are the stubornest braying jackass I ever heard or saw.

You are a mans worst nightmare. You torment him with acid tongue like you got and do on here. All your posts are bullshits. You say nothing intelligence. Everythings mixed up and not smart. Dont think Mr. Bob listens you or approves your bullshits. He dont give ***damned what you think and hes too intelligent to give any credit to you. Dont steal his name and lie saying he approves you.

You think your going to talk to men and women or public people like this? You are some crazyass big mouth bitch. I suffered to read your posts all throughout December and you are the worst writer I ever saw. Crazy in your head trust me. I never saw such hateful heart as you shown here.

I can only pray this public will beat yoiu senseless to shut you up the first time you open mouth to them. Muslim people must going to beat you senseless if you do it. They dont want your bullshits ideas. Your already having no sense, no brain, no wisdom not one truth. Wash your mouth with bleach since you disgrace to this blog and all readers here. I'm taking your class for your bullshits as you forgot your places and to have respects for yourself and God. You make me sick and you are disgusting like fatpig and hyena laughjing loudly that becomes dinner for lions. You need a hard beating for your out of control jackassery.

You make foreign people and American people most ashamed of your self not to mention what God thinks of you. You are the jackass piggirl always typeing poop no one can read or even understand like you are alien. Your lazy alien ass needs to learn English so you dont continue being disgraceful pig like you are doing. Theres no way you are Christian girl. You disgrace the name of Christ. Dont say you are Catholic since they dont talk like you do either.

-freed is the most Barbaric Bitch if I ever saw one and hope to see one never again. You are Jackass and spoiled. Stop torturing us all or continue being barbarian baby and I will cuss you up and down when I see your posts. I'm fed up with you. Be a human for once in your life. Im trying to learn what Mr. Bob is saying but you always get in the way with your jackassery.

-hassan fed up with -freed the piggirl

Anonymous said...

dear Devil,
White Queen,
never said I was christian, nor catholic!

I just said nobody can Fool me no more. Plus the truth makes me sick in the stomach. You included. You don't think I didn't know who I was talking to?

Now good bye forever!

Anonymous said...

Freed or whomever it is: I don't think it's worthwhile replying to you, given your issues. Someone is using my nick, so I've had to change it. God Bless You in your Growth & Goodbye as well.

- PsychoPrincess -

Anonymous said...

Hillary Clinton.. advocating "flaccid Marxism?"

your a loon Guru Bob.

Only a complete ignoramus could make that statement.

Gagdad Bob said...

Fine then. "Tumescent Marxism."

Anonymous said...

ANON: Get a Clue before you Spew - Read:

1) "The Case Against Hillary Clinton" Book By Peggy Noonan, former Regan speechwriter.

2) "Hillary Clinton and the Third Way: How America's First Lady of the Left has Bamboozled Liberals and Conservative Alike," David Horowitz,, June 22 2000. - DH article - lots of books here

If you have any salient points to make, come back & make them after you read at least these two resources.

- PrincessSpirit -

Anonymous said...

Marxism? You maintain that Hillary Clinton is influenced by tumescent Marxism?

Your devotee seriously offers propaganda references like as evidence?

Josef Goebbels would be proud of Noonan. Clearly, her venom did not penetrate the minds of the voting New York Public.

Whatever Hillary Clinton is, and I have very little interest in her, you really look extreme in trying to insert some Marxism, or even some Marxist influence, on her politics. Leftwing liberal maybe, an American Beatrice Webb, perhaps. But Marxism.. You simply must be kidding.

Wow. Clintons are Marxists, what next?

Little wonder the Great Republic is in decline. The rest of the world will never take your absurd political distortions seriously. We will genuflect while you are strong and powerful, for sure. But, it seems, those days are on the wane. First Vietnam, now Iraq.

lol. Clintons = Marxists. I am emailing this to colleagues. We might even photocopy it and stick on our doors as examples of U.S lunacy.

Gagdad Bob said...

Okay, okay, we get it. Hilllary is a fake Marxist. You're the real thing.

Anonymous said...

Think about what you said Guru Bob
"Okay, okay, we get it. Hilllary is a fake Marxist. You're the real thing."

Why do you feel that everyone who does not share your politics is a Marxist?

Perhaps you need doctor Bob.

Gagdad Bob said...

Tell me more. What is you're political philosophy?