A commenter on the previous post lamented our preoccupation with intelligence and intelligibility, dismissing the former as "a tool, a buzzing blinking contraption. Like a calculator."
Our intellect in understanding is extended to infinity (Thomas).
This is self-evident: there is no limit to what we may know, for to even draw a boundary between appearances and reality -- AKA phenomena and noumena -- is to presume what is on its other side: "the intellect is therefore naturally capable of knowing everything that exists." And
Our intellect in knowing anything is extended to infinity. This ordering of the intellect to infinity would be vain and senseless if there were no infinite object of knowledge (ibid.).
This accords with one of our favorite passages by Schuon:
The first ascertainment which should impose itself upon man when he reflects on the nature of the Universe is the primacy of that miracle that is intelligence -- or consciousness or subjectivity -- and consequently the incommensurability between these and material objects, be it a question of a grain of sand or of the sun, or of any creature whatever as an object of the senses.
In other words, the gap between the senses and the intellect is literally infinite, and demands an explanation: how did we get here, i.e., from the world of concrete sensations to the world of abstract concepts?
Note that the concrete sensible isn't even a "fact" until there exists an intelligence to regard it as one. Does a dog or a journalist live in a world of disinterested facts? Nor is it possible to "evolve" into the human world, again, because we're not talking about a continuous line but a discontinuous leap in being. There is no line that leads from touch or sight to pi, or to the theory of relativity, or to the self-evident truths undergirding our political system.
This is not to deny the fact of evolution. Indeed, is to render the fact of evolution intelligible. To imagine evolution "explains" human intelligence isn't superstitious, or even a little stitious. Rather, it's substitious. It begs the biggest question of all, which is how the intellect transcends the mere shuffling of material genes.
No sense organ is aware of itself or of its operation. The eye neither sees itself, nor does it see what it sees. But the intellect is aware of itself and of its act of knowing (ibid.).
Here again, if you believe this capacity is a miracle brought about on the sixth day of creation, you're closer to the truth than the person who believes it miraculously came about as a result of matter somehow transcending itself. This latter doesn't explain anything, i.e. how transcendence appears in an immanent world -- how objects become subjects, how the outside gets in, how mere existence becomes experience.
To judge one's own judgment: this can only be done by the reason, which reflects on its own act and knows the relation between that upon which it judges and that by which it judges. Hence the root of all freedom lies in the reason (ibid., emphasis mine).
Boom: and now we understand the link between metaphysics and politics. Another foolish commenter suggested that "the true mystic is singularly disinterested in politics or stolen elections." Nah. The reality is that the true mystic is singularly interested in any and all conditions that permit and promote the flourishing of true mysticism. Which any form of materialism obviously doesn't.
We're running out of time, but the question of real intelligence -- our knowledge of truth -- is very much tied in with the doctrine of creation. To put it conversely, if you're wrong about creation, then you're wrong -- ultimately -- about everything.
40 comments:
And one must be bereft of curiosity to not wonder how and why the intelligibility gets in, and how it is that our minds are able to extract this intelligibility. Is it just a miraculous coincidence? Or are there sound metaphysical reasons?
A handy visual
The doctrine of creation is really the doctrine of vertical fractals.
I enjoyed this thoughtful and well written post.
I believe the universe was created by God.
However, I apparently differ from your line of thinking about intelligence-
For you, intelligence is a gift from God, emerging out of sidereal space, the ether or background from whence come intimations and communications from God, however you conceive of the source. The source is not material.
I haven't seen you give overmuch weight to the brain with its synapses and bio-electric activity and its insatiable appetite for glucose fuel. I am curious, what do you think all that is for?
I hold a differing view, but not overmuch different. I too think intelligence is sidereal, etheric, non-material. I conceive of it as a plane or world which is co-existent with ours but not directly impinging on it, but is accessible under the right conditions.
The multiplicity of synapses in the brain and their biochemical hook-ups comprise those necessary conditions. The brain is a cross-dimensional organ, the first of its kind. The brain allows content from the intelligence world to enter the matter world. Think of it as a radio receiver of sorts. Prior to the advent of radio sets, people had no idea there were energetic waves in that spectrum.
So I think you are right, intelligence comes from outside of our material world. Of course God presides over the intelligence plane as well as all others and allows this commerce to take place.
But the brain should not be downplayed. Without it, intelligence cannot happen here.
-Anointed Golden Pickerel Lord of Walden Pond
The vulgar epistemology of the natural sciences is a burlesque idealism in which the brain plays the role of “I.”
Our intellect in knowing anything is extended to infinity.
Then why not a theocracy? Hell, I’d go back if praying got me the surety of infinite leaders anointed by infinites. Plus a little less sinning from the spiritual. As it is, I don’t remember prayers being answered even when I was devoutly spiritual and with only the best of intentions.
Plus it sure looks like Trump’s many anointed supplicants will be coming away disappointed. But they prayed so hard. How is mysticism supposed to flourish when God says “No” so many times?
The history of Christianity would be suspiciously human if it were not the adventure of an incarnate God. Christianity assumes the misery of history, as Christ assumes that of man.
Anonymous 4:58 has a good point: God apparently allowed Trump to lose and Biden to prevail.
Now, does this mean God prefers Biden? Or does God prefer Trump but allowed nature to take her course? Or does God have any preferences at all?
Does God have preferences but prefers not to act on them? How does God work?
GDB? Weigh in.
Now the whole of the leftist populace some would consider odious and sinful. And yet they are fruitful and multiply.
Perhaps they are not odious and sinful. Perhaps the other side is. Something to think about.
And it is never EVER too late to switch to the Democratic Party. Jump off that elephant and get on that ass.
-Erotic Smell
Only the Church considers itself a congregation of sinners. All other communities, religious or lay, feel themselves to be a confraternity of saints.
What Bob is saying, is that when we ask "Who dat?", they replay "We're the Saints!"
Yet they got caught in a bounty scandal. Do they ever know this? Bob says not. But more importantly, is not if Saints fans believe that their leaders are infallible, but instead the Patriot fans. Belichick has a major losing record and even dresses like the Evil Emperor. Yet his fans still consider him a God, even a GOAT God.
That seems messed up to me.
The stupid are surprised by stupidity and the corrupt by corruption. The intelligent and the innocent are less easily disconcerted.
Release the Kraken!
On this historic day Lee Roberts, Commander of the MAGA Army of West Virginia, signed an instrument of surrender in the presence of Grant Ulysses, Commander in Chief of the Antifa Army of the Potomac.
Ulysses asked for the unconditional surrender of all MAGA Red forces nationwide. Roberts replied he could not do that without the authorization of his President.
Ulysses replied, "there is only one President now." Roberts considered this and then signed the surrender document, ending the vicious four-year conflict between the Red and Blue States.
The Blue States had emerged victorious from the violent war. Ulysses allowed all MAGA officers to keep their sidearms. MAGA enlisted men were allowed to retain cell phones and vehicles and were sent home. These men and women had fought well and earned the respect of the Blue troops, who lined up and cheered as the MAGA rebels walked down the Capitol Mall in orderly fashion on their way to transport busses.
Thus ended a contentious chapter in American History, and the Union was made whole.
God Bless America.
-
Everything in history begins before where we think it begins and ends after where we think it ends.
The goodness of God is not what we think it is.
The purpose of men on the earth is to serve and glorify God. The purpose of God on the earth is to save men from the disaster they have made of His creation.
His goal is to draw people to Himself. Our goals involve human happiness on the earth. His goals involve human happiness eternally in heaven. Totally different goals, the furthering of each of which must lead to drastically different conceptions of good in any particular circumstance. Do people turn to God in times of peace and plenty?
It is needless to ask God to bless our goods. They are goods because God blessed them.
Arty wrote:
"The goodness of God is not what we think it is.
The purpose of men on the earth is to serve and glorify God. The purpose of God on the earth is to save men from the disaster they have made of His creation.
His goal is to draw people to Himself. Our goals involve human happiness on the earth. His goals involve human happiness eternally in heaven. Totally different goals, the furthering of each of which must lead to drastically different conceptions of good in any particular circumstance. Do people turn to God in times of peace and plenty?"
Arty, how did you arrive at these conclusions? They paint a rather disorganized/chaotic version of history.
Engage the frontal lobes a moment and question: Do we think God has loosed men upon Creation and men have made a disaster of it?
Do you not recognize the stupendous achievements of men in organizing a society which has gone from hunter-gatherer status all the way up to a space-faring society? How could any Father feel aught but pride for such intrepid sons and daughters?
The numbers of men have increased from perhaps 5,000 in all to more than 7.2 billion. Is there something about these numbers that bespeaks disaster?
Everywhere you turn among men there is love. In your own life are you not loved by others and by God?
Where do these pessimistic thoughts savage man requires saving come from himself?
And where does such a low opinion of God that He could ever struggle for command of his own creations come from?
God has placed with precision and intent His children, all souls sent to Earth, on missions to serve and grow. God knows exactly what the ambient conditions are on planet Earth; He has made it. He knows exactly what we are up against.
Original sin? Hardly. Original virtue is more like it. Eternal virtue.
But anyway, there must be a reason for the "fallen" man hypothesis; probably is is due just to the fact that coming here is a "fall" of sorts for sure.
Anyway, Bless you Arty you are Beloved of God.
Men are divided into two camps: those who believe in original sin and those who are idiots.
Yes, there is some good in humanity. We were made in the image and likeness of God and much residual goodness shines through. God is also at work in His creation.
It is also clear that there is a huge amount of evil. People are fallen.
Do we have to teach children to lie, or to be truthful?
Do we have to teach them to be nice to each other or to be mean?
Are people by nature selfish or altruistic?
Do people follow God by nature or themselves?
Most societies in history are built on the strong standing on the weak. The powerful ignore those who have no power. The good of the few outweighs the good of the many.
We are extremely fortunate to live in a society in which this is less true than in most. Nevertheless, the rich subvert justice for their own ends. The powerful cater to those they have to, and ignore the rest. The poor are left to beg for handouts. The government takes from all to fund pet projects as well as those functions that are correct for government.
Yes, God is undoubtedly proud of some of the things individuals have done. Did they do it for the right reasons? God wants us to live rightly, but is more concerned that we do it because we are following Him. He cares less about what we do than why we do it.
Consider the man who funds libraries and colleges in his own name as part of his giving back to society. He does a huge amount of good. Does he do it to glorify God and make the world what He wants it to be, or to glorify himself?
All men worship their gods. A man's god is what drives his action and is the pole star for his moral compass. For most, they are their own god. Sic volo, sic jubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas (Thus I wish, thus I command. Let my will stand for a reason). How can the true God be happy about works done in the name of another?
Most of what humanity does in its own cause founders because humans are intrinsically tainted. Many, many people have given themselves over to narcissistic and hedonistic lifestyles because they worship those gods. This is why they are perennially unhappy - they are chasing phantoms.
God does not struggle with His creations as such. He wants people who will follow Him voluntarily. If He wanted robots, He would have made them. He wanted voluntary servants. He therefore limits His own activity to trying to draw us to Him. He will not override our will. Nor does He send men to hell in the conventional sense - they send themselves. As C.S. Lewis noted, at judgement, there will be two kinds of people, those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done."
Sin, you see, is rebellion. either lay down your arms voluntarily or be destroyed.
Hello Arty, I enjoyed your response to my comment.
I see your point; humanity is by no means sweetness and light. I agree hedonism and debauchery is not Godly and these are not time well-spent. I concede the point here.
One could argue a taste of hedonism could serve as a desired experience to a add to a bag of experiences, a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there; a little something for your resume of been there, done that, got the post-card. That's a stretch, although I observe most people jade of glorifying themselves and wallowing in sin after about a decade and move on.
People always turn to God sooner or later. It is what we all do. It is "what's for dinner."
Another objection regarding an assertion.
"God does not struggle with His creations as such. He wants people who will follow Him voluntarily. If He wanted robots, He would have made them. He wanted voluntary servants."
Why do we think God wants voluntary servants? I'm not saying it is not true; however I am curious as to the source. Biblical?
Another assertion: "Most of what humanity does in its own cause founders because humans are intrinsically tainted."
The question arises as to how humanity came to be "intrinsically tainted." A red flag signals something is not right about this assertion.
Is God intrinsically tainted? I'm guessing not. Well, then how did it come to pass He fielded and propagated an intrinsically tainted species upon the globe?
Very fishy.
Arty, I don't want to change your mind about anything because I sense you are doing well on your walk with God; you don't need any counseling from the likes of me, a very fallen person.
I am a contentious individual but, as singer Miller put it "sure don't want to hurt no-one."
"Men are divided into two camps: those who believe in original sin and those who are idiots."
What a narrow minded view of the world. So, people that don't share your religious beliefs are idiots. Per your other positions, pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with you on anything is also an idiot. What a bitter way to live life. The reality is that a very, very small percentage of the world's population share your beliefs. While an argument can be made that a fair percentage of these don't have the ability of rational thought and be worth of your idiot moniker, it is certainly not because they don't share your beliefs. Pretty much the Taliban playbook without the violence. You do have thoughtful and intelligent things to say. However statements like that push away all but your cheerleaders. Is there no way for anyone to disagree with you without being insulted? Do you have any expectations of being taken seriously by anyone other than your cheerleaders?
As a psychologist, what is to be said about someone who can only criticize those that don't agree with them?.
(ok Nicolas, you can make an inane little quip that doesn't address anything that was said because obviously anyone that doesn't agree with you is too stupid and everything you say is perfect).
Engaging in dialogue with those who do not share our assumptions is nothing more than a stupid way to kill time.
The quality of an intelligence depends less on what it understands than on what makes it smile.
The stupid are surprised by stupidity and the corrupt by corruption. The intelligent and the innocent are less easily disconcerted.
Indeed. So I just saw the 2014 depiction of the Great Flood, that movie called "Noah".
In that depiction, God never speaks directly. Instead, magical things just happen which guides the various actors towards that famous final end of a destroyed/reborn earth and innocent creatures emerging from an ark to repopulate the world.
Obviously, an omnipotent creator can manipulate his “Watchers”, animals, water, Noah… in whatever magical ways he wants to because he’s omnipotent. Me, I would’ve just blinked all the bad people away like I Dream of Genie and left Noah and his family to wonder what the hell just happened. That’d be amusing enough for me.
But some may say, where’s the fun in that? Maybe that’s not how an omnipotently narcissistically psychopathic God behaves. He wants to experience the pain of every living thing outside that ark suffering to death. Maybe that’s why we have modern conservatism, a place where people can sort out the innocent and sinning and the stupids in whatever way floats their boats.
I do like the part where Jesus showed up and told God to quit meddling like some gigantic child torturing his ant farm ants (who were made to do what ants just do) to quit blaming the ants all the time, so he could be the nice guy and give humans a pathway towards innocence again. I like that part.
To be stupid is to believe that it is possible to take a photograph of the place about which a poet sang.
Man is tainted, but he was not created tainted.
We were created to have God on the throne at the center of our lives. Only one person can be on the throne, however. When man rebelled against God, he lost the ability to keep Him on the throne. We have a tendency to put ourselves on the throne. Adam and Eve is either literal truth or allegory - either way, the truth still stands. We rebelled and can't get back on our own. We have become incapable of being what we were created to be. This is the taint. It is also known as original sin. This is why the Bible says that just as in Adam all died, in Christ, all are made alive.
The wages of sin is death - if you sin, you incur the death penalty. That's why blood sacrifice is required to cover sin - the blood debt has to be paid. That covers the debt, but not the damage. We are still incapable of keeping God at the center, which does bad things for our moral compass. The moral compass points to what is 'right', but if I am at the center, what is 'right' changes. As a result, we cannot behave rightly, according to God's use of the term.
While is is true that many people turn to God later on, it is certainly not universally true. It is also true that there is a difference between turning to God and submitting to Him as king. Many people follow the form of religion but don't really believe it - It's just "what we do." Jesus had some strong words for the Pharisees who lived that way. God is either king, or He isn't. If He is, that demands a complete change of perception and orientation on my part. This must by necessity result in changes in my behavior. If I don't change what I do, do I really believe it?
The idea that God wants voluntary servants follows from the facts. The entire tone of the Bible - particularly the New Testament - is that God wants us to choose Him. Even the angels have free will. Otherwise, Satan could not have rebelled. The fact that we can rebel and persist in our rebellion without being crushed or even overawed into compliance means that He is looking for us to choose Him on our own. It is more complex than that, but that is the basis of the argument.
Here begins the gospel of Hell: In the beginning was nothing and it believed nothing was god, and was made man, and dwelt on earth, and by man all things were made nothing.
Hi Arty, great comment at 11:22. Are you by any chance a preacher? You have the chops.
I am convinced you are a highly committed Christian, so all debate must cease at this point. If you stick to your doctrine you will be saved, and that is the important thing.
A for the rest of you, and that includes you Nicolas, it is still ON. Let's rumble.
"Here begins the gospel of Hell: In the beginning was nothing and it believed nothing was god, and was made man, and dwelt on earth, and by man all things were made nothing."
Oooooohh ...kay. WTF is this supposed to mean? Explain please.
Only the theocentric vision does not end up reducing man to absolute insignificance.
But I thought man was perfect, sans that fruit. Plus I know a lot of agnostics who place man above God. This is confusing. I sure hope another aphorism about being stupid is coming. I think this is more involved that that.
Arty OTOH, explains it well.
The atheist is respectable as long as he does not teach that the dignity of man is the basis of ethics and that love for humanity is the true religion.
If man is the sole end of man, an inane reciprocity is born from that principle, like the mutual reflection of two empty mirrors.
“To have faith in man” does not reach the level of blasphemy; it is just one more bit of nonsense.
To believe in the redemption of man by man is more than an error; it is an idiocy.
It would be funny, if it weren't such a horror, how often man's desire to improve mankind devolves into mass murder and a dream to reduce to some idealized quantity the number of men permitted to live and move and have their being.
Why Daisy, do you think man should have no desire to improve mankind? What kind of defeatism is that?
Of course there is an idealized number of men "permitted to live and move and have their being." Some say 1,000,000,000 is plenty.
However, unlimited numbers of women would be permitted; not sure if you got the memo on that.
Do you like sharing?
-Debra
Nicolás, are you aware that your aphorisms point towards theocracy? I'd be all in, but really need to hear that booming voice from the sky during a MAGA rally. Photos of a buncha prosperity preachers touching our POUTUS don't quite do it for me. OTOH, I did spot what looks like the shape of Jesus face hiding in the photo's background leaves.
Daisy and/or Debra, the problem with past results that hoped to improve mankind, is that many have actually worked. I'd think that the ones which have failed should merit some study. I'm already aware of the grift potential, as we're living now. Huey Long was the one before but people were wiser back then and he never got to have any real power.
I say the trick is knowing that past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. And accountability is good. If our Dear Leaders start genociding folks, then we'll make sure no babushkas stand in the way of our sniper shots, regardless of their relationship with God.
But most people are easily persuaded of most anything as long as they think there's something in it for their chanting comrades. And skilled sociopaths are the best of all at acquiring power. Happens to the best of movements. Christians believed the trick was to make sure the power megalomania never strayed far from bibles and preachers, but then Jim Jones happened. And now Trump with his 60 lost coup court cases and threats of martial law without any actual evidence.
More study is needed. I'd offer Bible verses, but when was the last time anybody took any of those seriously?
The problem is not the intent - it is the people that have to be involved to make it happen. Efforts to 'make people better' usually involve individuals grabbing power. This is always a recipe for problems. Not to mention the question of whose definition of "better" we would use. I submit that it would be best to help individuals around you and leave the overall population to God. People have a regrettable tendency to keep their eyes focused on the horizon and ignore the problems in their own neighborhood.
BTW, a lot of people take Bible verses seriously. For the most part, they aren't exposed to them enough to be complacent about them.
They also add to authority. I can speak my piece until I am blue in the face, but it is just my opinion. Putting a question in terms of religious authority changes the context, regardless of whether the individual is a believer.
Hi Arty,
I would argue that Bible verses are helpful but usually only when understood in the context in which they are written and to which they ultimately refer. Otherwise, one runs the risk of misrepresenting the Bible and leading oneself and others astray.
Properly understood - that is, the more one is exposed to them - Bible verses should render one not complacent, but humble.
Put another way, when I was young and knew everything, the Bible was impenetrable and stupid to me when I tried to read it. It is only as I've grown older and more ignorant that I understand there is such depth, and would not make use of it rashly.
Hi Julie,
I take your point.
Context is vital, and can be easily lost. It is easy to misrepresent things through misunderstanding, unconscious (or conscious) bias or plain sloppiness.
You are quite correct - humility comes with exposure. For me, it also came after repeatedly getting knocked down until I realized I wasn't as smart or important as I thought I was.
Biblical truth should be represented as such, though, and not just as my opinion.
There are multiple layers of meaning in much of Scripture, and the plain text reading can be more valuable to someone who needs it than a full exegesis.
It is a very valid concern, too, that many people have used Scripture throughout history to their own ends rather than God's. While we should be aware of this, we shouldn't let it stop us from appropriate use.
It is God's speech, not ours, and should be used liberally. We should not be nervous or concerned about speaking from the Bible (where appropriate). God will see that is understood. He will also offset our occasional misuse. Speak boldly. I don't believe you are ashamed of it, but hold it in such reverence that you do not want to do wrong by it or Him. You won't.
Don't hold back. He will see to the results.
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