Tuesday, January 22, 2013

Our Logophobic President

What a perfectly loathsome and undignified diatribe. Have you ever noticed? Just when you forget all about your craw, a bunch of stuff gets caught in it, reminding you it's there. Here are some passages and phrases that are stuck in mine:

"Schools and colleges to train our workers." How about schools and colleges to liberate the mind and elevate the soul? I really couldn't give two f*cks if my son misses out on such "training." I mean, a man's gotta eat, but man surely doesn't live by bread alone. Men who aren't leftist flatlanders, anyway.

Besides, blowing harder on the higher education bubble helps no one but the colleges. On the other hand, at least Obama's policies will cause the bubble to burst sooner, so we can get it over with.

"A great nation must protect its people from life's worst hazards and misfortune."

Hmm. Does that include protection from the most devastating hazard and misfortune of them all, the tyrannical and intrusive state?

Because if the 20th century taught us one lesson, it is that there is nothing more destructive than the all-wise and all-powerful state predicated on the fantasy that it will protect its citizens from all of life's unavoidable exigencies. I mean, just protect me from domestic and foreign enemies, okay? And stop violating with the Constitution. Then we'll talk.

What are life's worst hazards, anyway? Probably the same they've always been: war. Famine. Disease. Poverty. So, why don't we cure hunger by imitating the Soviet Union and putting the state in charge of food production and distribution? While we're at it, why doesn't the federal government create millions of pretend jobs and lavish its worthless employees with absurdly generous wages and benefits?

Oh, right. I guess Obama noticed how effectively that model is working here in California. Hence the thriving economy in and around Washington DC.

"A decade of war is now ending."

Rrrrrright. First of all, I think he means 40,000 years of war, or however long it has been since man has been fully man (in other words, war and humanness co-arise). Still, good to hear that it's ending. Someone needs to inform the Algerians, Afghans, Libyans, Malians, Iranians, and the peace-loving Palestinians. Not to mention the city of Chicago.

"An economic recovery has begun." Indeed. Just as war is ending. This calls to mind Zeno's paradox, doesn't it? With this logical fallacy, it is possible to prove that the runner is always beginning, without ever reaching the end. Thus, with four years of Obama's economic policies, the unemployment rate has plunged from an intolerable 7.8% down to a more modest 7.8%.

Nevertheless, there's still a lot of work to be done if we want to drive it further down to 7.8%. Given the worsening economic conditions, the only way to accomplish this will be to force even more workers to permanently drop out of the labor force.

"We, the people, still believe that every citizen deserves a basic measure of security and dignity."

Actually, no. Not if you mean that our dignity is conferred by the state. Dignity is like class. You either have it or you don't, and it certainly has nothing to do with income, as proved by Obama's many conspicuously undignified Hollywood friends. How about Al Sharpton? Who stole his dignity? Jesse Jackson? Joe Biden? Keith Olbermann? Piers Morgan? The free telephone lady?

"We must make the hard choices to reduce the cost of health care and the size of our deficit."

Memo to Obama: the country made that hard choice in 2008 and 2012, and voted for skyrocketing healthcare costs and massive deficits. In other words, bigger and more intrusive government. Besides, healthcare costs what it costs. You can manipulate the price, but that will just end up increasing the overall cost.

"But we reject the belief that America must choose between caring for the generation that built this country and investing in the generation that will build its future."

That's a coincidence. We reject strawman arguments that create the illusion of reasonableness by denouncing arguments that no one actually holds. For example, I REJECT THE BELIEF THAT WE MUST CHOOSE BETWEEN LOVING OUR CHILDREN AND EATING THEM.

"Some may still deny the overwhelming judgment of science, but none can avoid the devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms."

And others will deny the overwhelming judgment of science that none of those things have any link to "climate change."

"We, the people, still believe that enduring security and lasting peace do not require perpetual war."

Yes, but here's the tricky part: our enemies believe that a lasting peace requires perpetual war. Or submission to the caliphate. So at least we have a choice.

"Our journey is not complete until our wives, our mothers, and daughters can earn a living equal to their efforts."

If that is the case, then our journey is over. And what a banal journey it was! It seems that history ends with neither bang nor whimper, just a crappy job and your children raised by strangers. But that's okay. At least every little girl can dream of some crappy job in her future. The circle of life!

It's a matter of priorities. The Raccoon -- and the supernaturally Natural Man more generally -- must have Slack. That most of us must work in exchange for Slack is just a sad fact of life. So let's not pretend that the purpose of Slack is to work, rather than vice versa. Let's not invert the cosmos.

"Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law -- for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well."

In this version, history ends when the state has successfully mandated that my aunt is a trolley car, just because my uncle likes it that way.

Wait! There's another auger, straight from the goat's entrails: "Our journey is not complete until no citizen is forced to wait for hours to exercise the right to vote."

Let me translate that for you: history will end when voter fraud becomes so easy and so widespread that we'll have a permanent liberal majority.

Here's a good one: the journey will be over when all children "are cared for, and cherished, and always safe from harm."

I used to kinda sorta believe that until I actually had a child, and discovered that no matter how much you cherish, care for, and protect them, they have minds and wills of their own, and are bound to reenact the ancient patterns. In other words, just when you thought history was over, the next generation will start up the whole catastrophe all over again. Especially if they have tossed out the perennial wisdom of religion.

The Marxist hacks at Reuters naturally applaud the totalitarian instincts of our dear leader, noting that he demands "a more inclusive America that rejects partisan rancor and embraces immigration reform, gay rights and the fight against climate change."

Or, in non-Newspeak, a less inclusive America that rejects alternative points of view. Nor can we "treat name-calling as reasoned debate," you bunch of science-denying, homophobic, war mongering, elder abusing, child hating misogynists.

What? Logophobia?

That's a spiritual disease involving an irrational abuse of language, or the deployment of language to destroy meaning. Our journey will be over when we find a cure for it.

124 Comments:

Blogger ted said...

And the logophobe is what card again in MOTT?

Oh I see, you interrupted our regularly scheduled programming to bring us this very important Gagdadian PSA. Cool!

1/22/2013 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Here's a good one: the journey will be over when all children "are cared for, and cherished, and always safe from harm."

Has he ever actually spent time with his own kids?

This morning, when the boy came chirping merrily into our room, he had the beginnings of a black eye. I have no idea when he managed to hit his face; all I can think is that one of his monster trucks must have used his face for a bit of rough driving during the night. Then there was the time he slithered head first off the side of the couch on Christmas Eve, thus providing the Christmas Goose-egg. Realistically, there's only so much one can do to keep the kids safe even when they are securely within your arms. And even if we could keep them ever-safe, there would be terrible repercussions.

Anyway, to the speech, he really enjoys pulling the old bait-and-switch, doesn't he?

"Through it all, we have never relinquished our skepticism of central authority, nor have we succumbed to the fiction that all society's ills can be cured through government alone. Our celebration of initiative and enterprise; our insistence on hard work and personal responsibility, are constants in our character.

But..."

1/22/2013 09:52:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

He likes big buts.

1/22/2013 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

That begs for an undignified joke.

1/22/2013 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

... what I call a double-wide entendre.

1/22/2013 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0011 said...

Right out of the gate he:

Evokes Jefferson... (..."Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness")

Then Lincoln... (Through blood drawn by lash and blood drawn by sword...)

Then 'The Pet-shop Boys' in their "Go West" number:

(Together, we ...
(Together, we ...
(Together, we ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ04BG7TfA#t=35s

Now that Obama has climbed upon the shoulders of 2 of our Greatest Presidents and has established his background music, are there any other catch phrases and plagiarized quotes that I've missed in this sophmoric attempt at disguising his lack of creativity and vision for his 2nd Inaugural Address as representative of the President of the most powerful country on the planet - let alone in history?

1/22/2013 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

It's a funny thing.

I could fix both the cost of medical care and college tuition in about a day.

If third parties are not paying for medical care, are the hospitals going to tear themselves down? Are heart surgeons going to go on the World Poker Tour?

Artificially inflated demand based on somebody else paying the bill causes prices to rise. If demand decreases and supply remains roughly constant, what's going to happen?

If the government isn't backing college loans for kids who can't count to 21 with their pants on, and, if student loans could be charged off through bankruptcy, the frequency and stupidity of loans would decrease.

Are the tenured going to go out and get real jobs, or will the price of an education for those who might actually benefit from it go down?

1/22/2013 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Appeasement in our time!

1/22/2013 10:06:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"Artificially inflated demand based on somebody else paying the bill causes prices to rise. If demand decreases and supply remains roughly constant, what's going to happen?"

Exactly so. No coincidence that the things people can least afford are the most subsidized by the state.

1/22/2013 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger ted said...

The correct phrase is "gluteus maximus svelte challenged individual".

1/22/2013 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

If I could change one thing... well, if we could just wrench the educational establishment from liberal activists, we could mandate that children pass an economics course. That would drive a stake through the heart of the left.

1/22/2013 10:10:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

That was some serious intellectual destruction on Obama's part.

Logophobic destruction is the new deconstruction.

1/22/2013 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

I would agree with that.

Of course, I guess it would depend on whether they were taught from someone like Sowell or Krugman & Kompany

1/22/2013 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Re. Bob @ 10:10,

Heck, even just teaching them how to manage their personal finances would go a long way. If there were a requirement that kids have to be able to balance a checkbook and practice paying their taxes, that's all it should take...

1/22/2013 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Speaking of severe logophobia, two tweets from Deepak:

1. Words are patterns of reality making.

2. President Obama's speech was sober practical & specific in what he wants to achieve. I was inspired.

There you have it: disease (1) and symptom (2).

1/22/2013 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger EbonyRaptor said...


I couldn't bring myself to hear even just snippets on the news - let alone the whole pompous speech. The sound of his voice irritates me and the content of his speech is so predictable there was no point in listening unless I wanted to get angry(er).

I hope to see January 22, 2017 - the day he (hopefully) goes away.

1/22/2013 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0011 said...

"1. Words are patterns of reality making."

Words Change Reality.

Wow...

Here's Dilbert in Mega-Corps Accounting Department where "Numbers Change Reality"

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1990-08-18/

Its like... Deepak works for Dilberts Marketing Department.

1/22/2013 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

I want to a trillion dollars in my bank account.

I am optimistic that I can use words to achieve this by altering reality by telling Citibank over and over again that I have a account with a trillion dollars in it until reality is altered to conform to my infantile omnipotence.

1/22/2013 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Heh. Deepak's tweets remind me of something that caught my eye in yesterday's post re. modern philosophy:

It is a dreary factory system in which tenured hacks pretend to publish important ideas for other tenured hacks to pretend to read.

One could wish you were only joking, but it's been proven time and again, not just in modern philosophy but also in mathematical and scientific publications, that the more unreadable something is (so long as it is puffed up with obscure multisyllabic words), the more likely it is to be praised. Nobody wants to publicly acknowledge that they didn't read or understand the publication.

The reason Chopra made me think of that is that I find it difficult (though not impossible) to believe that anybody who understood the speech could describe it as "sober, practical and specific in what he wants to achieve."

And on a tangent, I bet you could start a ridiculously popular blog, perhaps called "Deepakking the Chopra," wherein you pretend to be a fan describing the various exploits that result from following his advice...

1/22/2013 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

You just need one of those trillion dollar coins, JP.

Our problem is we are not Great (enough) Pretenders.

1/22/2013 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0011 said...

Time to repost an old Chopra Spoof, compliments of long time Raccoon 'Ted':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybAUM7KoXco

Thanks Ted!

1/22/2013 11:19:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"Deepaking the Chopra."

It would be a little like Mister Magoo. Except you'd end up getting killed or fired or arrested the first day.

1/22/2013 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

"You just need one of those trillion dollar coins, JP.

Our problem is we are not Great (enough) Pretenders."

Don't harsh my mellow.

I'm already in the process of contacting some architectural firms to that I can build myself a monument to my own greatness somewhere in Queens.

It's going to be a vast commercial hub full of skyscrapers adorned with gold, silver, and platinum, modern art, and statutes of me.

People from all over the world will come to work there and bask in the glory of my ego.

1/22/2013 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

It reminds me of something an agent said on the Larry Sanders show:

"Our job would be so easy if it weren't for fucking talent!"

Likewise, liberalism would be so easy if it weren't for fucking reality.

1/22/2013 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

I thought about stealing the trillon dollar coin.

However, *then* you run into the problem as to *who* would buy it.

I think I could sell it to North Korea or Iran.

1/22/2013 01:14:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Oh, great.

"...Four F-16 fighter jets left the U.S. this morning, bound for Egypt as part of a foreign aid package critics say should have been scrapped when the nation elected a president who has called President Obama a liar..."

When an American does it, he'd better watch out for a big bus being sent his way. When an anti-American, anti-Semitic Middle Eastern leader does it, he can expect fighter jets.

1/22/2013 01:20:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Meanwhile, over at Taranto's today the first item provides a great example of a leftist who follows the Chopra doctrine of words creating reality:

"I'm not a gun owner and, as I think as is the case for the more than half the people in the country who also aren't gun owners, that means that for me guns are alien. And I have my own set of rights not to have gun culture run roughshod over me. . . ."

If you disagree with this guy, that is equivalent to physically attacking him and people like him. Words create reality!

1/22/2013 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

A member in good standing of the Professional Weaker Brother Union.

What exactly is "gun culture"? Is there a shoe culture that runs roughshod over the barefooted?

Do those of the car culture run roughshod over pedestrians? (OK, sometimes -- sometimes pedestrians are asking for it.)

1/22/2013 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

Back in the '30s there was a news report that the U.S. was selling scrap metal to Germany. The local storekeeper had fought in WWI. He remarked to my parents that "they will be shooting it back at us inside of five years." He may have missed the time frame, but he knew what was coming.

Now we just give our future enemies entire, fully functional, advanced weapons systems. We should at least holler out, "Israel! Think fast!"

1/22/2013 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Oy, vey! Speaking of double-wide entendres and abuses of language, Ace has the story.

Don't read if you have a queasy stomach...

1/22/2013 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Oh, I''ve heard worse:

"When I was married at the age of 22 and relishing an active sex life, I assumed that this was a pleasure that my middle-aged parents rarely, if ever, enjoyed. Now, well past 70, Rosalynn and I have learned to accommodate each other’s desires more accurately and generously, and have never had a more complete and enjoyable relationship."

Nordlinger sums it up well: "Shudder, shudder, shudder, shudder, shudder, shudder, shudder."


1/22/2013 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew MacDonald said...

I think it would be useful, not to mention fun, to "deepak the chopra" the guy's such a presence.

However, his #1 statement that words are patterns of reality making isn't loony - our inner imaginative worlds are architectured by words, no?

But the words in the speech (which I couldn't listen to either) are profoundly impotent; it's almost as if there's something between the words that can be alive and creative, but here, nails on the blackboard.

It twarnt no "I have a dream".

Don Colacho says (paraphrase) language is born among the people, flourishes with writers and goes to die among the middle class.

1/22/2013 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

@Bob - oh, that is just so, so disturbing.

1/22/2013 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I'm trying to imagine the person who reads that passage by Carter, and says, "oh, really? Tell me more."

1/22/2013 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

I have learned at least one thing from the internet -- there are some weird people running loose.

Carter is just a parody of himself.

1/22/2013 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

John: Human language can of course create imaginary worlds, but it does not create reality qua reality.

Reality is, however, created by the divine Word, which is why it is intelligible to begin with.

1/22/2013 07:41:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew MacDonald said...

"human language . . . does not create reality qua reality".

We don't create the ground of being but we are co-evolving the way it all unfolds, and so, methinks, participate in the divine Word. God's creativity is our creativity is God's creativity.

1/22/2013 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

"We don't create the ground of being but we are co-evolving the way it all unfolds, and so, methinks, participate in the divine Word. God's creativity is our creativity is God's creativity."

Of course we participate.

It's just we have boundaries that we can't just ignore because our imaginations want to take us to unlimited awesomeness.

And one of those boundaries is that words aren't patterns of reality making.

1/22/2013 08:13:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Andrew:

Not sure why I called you John. But rest assured, even though I called you John, you're still Andrew. Unless Deepak is right.

1/22/2013 08:22:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew MacDonald said...

JP . . . or Carter, I assume (that's my middle name btw).

We do have boundaries and our imaginations can, and often do, get out of control and the New Age is full of it, so to speak.

Still, words have a role in reality making, just as our consciousness does. We're (or God in us if you like) are the carryihg forward of what reality is, and language is in the thick of it.

1/22/2013 08:37:00 PM  
Blogger Andrew MacDonald said...

@Gagdad Bob
"Not sure why I called you John. But rest assured, even though I called you John, you're still Andrew. Unless Deepak is right."

I remain thoroughly Andrew (just checked in) so it's settled then.

1/22/2013 08:50:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Now we know why that rabbit attacked Carter.

1/23/2013 12:26:00 AM  
Blogger Brian Spears said...

When the president said, "commanded to our care," did he mean, "commended to our care," or what?

1/23/2013 03:22:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

The Obamaphone lady?
actually made an unlikely
resurrection!

1/23/2013 03:23:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

would youse believe the same Guy [Stevens] named 'MOTT the HOOPLE' AND 'PROCOL HARUM'??
http://www.procolharum.com/guystevens2.htm

little did he know how oft MOTT would appear here!

1/23/2013 04:16:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0011 said...

"Reality is, however, created by the divine Word, which is why it is intelligible to begin with. "

@Bob

Absolutely. WE are created in the image of God. In turn we create our paradigm of 'reality' which is our inner world.

When our 'reality' collides with Reality in Realspace, various contradictions come flying out of that collision and our 'reality' is in need of some extensive repairs.

When your 'Smart' Car hits head on with the Cosmic Bus, you know which ones gonna lose - everytime.

1/23/2013 04:35:00 AM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

"We must make the hard choices to reduce the cost of health care and the size of our deficit."

Yeah. It's so hard to say "Make it FREE!"

"But we reject the belief that America must choose between caring for the generation that built this country and investing in the generation that will build its future."

Another translation: We reject the idea that we cannot have our cake and eat it too! That's just oppressive Old Dead White Guy logic! We can do better than reality!

Click.

1/23/2013 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Andrew:

We seem to be defining reality differently. For me, reality is precisely that which is not created by human language or consciousness, and is ontologically prior to both.

1/23/2013 07:20:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

when bon mots are censored by agenda'd schmucks ---no html-link so readers can judge interest b4 going:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/21/business/a-casualty-on-the-battlefield-of-amazons-partisan-book-reviews.html?ref=books

GB above: but your notion of that is still skullbound...certainly not located outside of that

1/23/2013 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger Christina M said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1/23/2013 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger ted said...

For me, reality is precisely that which is not created by human language or consciousness, and is ontologically prior to both.

Bob, couldn't we say that epistemology and ontology co-evolve together, since see we keep perceiving and receiving more of reality in time. (Although there are some ontological truths outside of history.)

1/23/2013 07:43:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I don't think so. One must either begin with reality or with thought. If one begins with thought, one can never return to reality. Even the fact that you use two different words -- ontology and epistemology -- confirms the common sense experience that they are two different things. Why not just think the same way you live? Or, to put it the other way around, why adopt a metaphysic that runs completely counter to experience, common sense, logic, and functionality?

1/23/2013 07:55:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Ontology doesn't co-evolve because it doesn't evolve (it is timeless). But epistemology evolves as we deepen our understanding of ontology.

1/23/2013 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In other words, our deepening insight into the Real doesn't alter the Real, which is by definition the timeless and changeless.

1/23/2013 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

There is one major exception to the rule I've laid out above, and that is the experience of infancy, in which we do have the illusion of omnipotence and omniscience, and the subjective experience that we co-create reality. I've blogged about this paradox in the past, because it is a subtle but critical point: that our recognition of reality is founded upon a prior fusion with it. And in the absence of this prior, intersubjective fusion, we could never discover reality. Thus, the more pathology we see in a person, the less differentiated they are from this primitive realm of fusion. I think philosophies that argue for the fusion of ontology and epistemology are just distant echoes of infantile experience (which, importantly is always available to us in the now, just as higher states are always available).

1/23/2013 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And with that, I have to ger ready for work. No post today!

1/23/2013 08:07:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

... and get ready too.

1/23/2013 08:09:00 AM  
Blogger ted said...

Yes, I see your points. However, how I think and live is differently than I did 10 years ago (which was way beyond infancy :). And we can only assume that how we think and live is very different than how someone from our ilk did 300 years ago and so forth.

I do agree that there is a timeless dimension that doesn't evolve, but how it gets interpreted seems to.

1/23/2013 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Think about the Christian view, in which even God cannot survive his own creation. Kind of a mind-blowing thought. And now I'm late!

1/23/2013 08:14:00 AM  
Blogger ted said...

Thanks! Enough for today :)

1/23/2013 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

Gagdad said "One must either begin with reality or with thought. If one begins with thought, one can never return to reality."

and,
"Ontology doesn't co-evolve because it doesn't evolve (it is timeless). But epistemology evolves as we deepen our understanding of ontology. "

A big and hearty two thumbs up on that.

Reality IS. Our attempts to discover what it is, can in no way, shape, or form, or precede, or act independently of that.

Words do not participate in reality making, they are only our tools of grasping and manipulating what has been made. How well, or ill, they perform that task, depends upon how well they conform to the reality they were made to grasp, and whether or not you use the right tool for the job.

1/23/2013 08:15:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

About how reality is interpreted: yes. There is a kind of deepening spiral that occurs between sensation and intellect.

1/23/2013 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

... and is affected by whether or not you keep your mind on the job at hand.

If you goof off, don't be surprised if your payoff gets docked.

1/23/2013 08:28:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Reality does not require thought.
If we say they co-arise, we will mix them up or will not be able to point to reality (when we communicate) and know which part we mean; whether we are on the same page or not. So when we say "reality" or refer to it, we are talking about that which is not effected by thought. Reality is what happens to you. What always happens.
Are we on the same page; or the real page? The latter is the better one if we cannot have both.

1/23/2013 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

'Reality does not require thought.'
[that's a thought]

So, Reality is what is THERE, before us/after us, outside of us, when we're no longer there to notice it--- I think, nay I KNOW that there's a whole world of Reality that doesn't depend on my thought....I can imagine it vividly
woops

1/23/2013 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

About how reality is interpreted: yes.

That is the key. The old King James says, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

Not reality, me, and me, pathological, psychotic, neurotic and twisted (and those are my good points) person that I am has a lot to do with how I think.

But with what really is, not so much.

1/23/2013 10:33:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

-not enough to read?

Check out this rather wide-ranging author if not already known:
http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/Joseph_P._Farrell

[just heard of him via Alchemy website]

1/23/2013 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

"JP . . . or Carter, I assume (that's my middle name btw).

We do have boundaries and our imaginations can, and often do, get out of control and the New Age is full of it, so to speak.

Still, words have a role in reality making, just as our consciousness does. We're (or God in us if you like) are the carryihg forward of what reality is, and language is in the thick of it."

I'm a JP. I just use the Carter book cover (I may wander around Pleasure Island in a month and change it to another Carter poster)

If by reality making you mean Creation and our Creative Purpose with respect to a portion of Creation, then yes, we can act and change things. We can also use our hands. Or make tools. Or build Towers that are Struck by Lightning (which is complete waste of time, by the way).

Words have a role in things we can change.

Word's don't have a role in things we can't change.

There are things we can't change, even in our section of Creation.

Like e and pi. No matter how much I talk to them or talk about them or want them to change, or think about them changing, they won't.

They're steel, and solidly anchored where I can't get to them, and all I've got is slightly warm air coming out of my pie hole to work with.

1/23/2013 11:02:00 AM  
Blogger Magister said...

I'm amused by the facile way the speech (written by Jon Favreau?) wraps itself in the mantle of eschatological profundity:

Our journey as a nation will be complete when our group gets what it wants

Ah, so when the Leftist Agenda is fully enacted, we will have reached the End of History. The Messiah will have come and made all wrongs right.

There was much in this speech that sounded right, but it's hollow through and through.

I hate to see the speech of the highest office in the land debased so thoroughly. Instead of modesty warranted by his failures and lies, we have the rhetoric of virtue trotted out as an obvious sham.

Disgusting.

1/23/2013 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Magister said...

at least Detroit's union membership is at a 70-year low

the union money will dry up

I'm not believing the Leftist power hype at the moment

fight him tooth and nail for 18 months and then berate him as a lame duck

"this is no time to go wobbly"

1/23/2013 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

"I'm not believing the Leftist power hype at the moment"

I think the left is basically inert.

I'm more interested in the sovereign debt issue.

1/23/2013 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Jules said...

I was thinking the other day that kids could have a run a company subject where they actually sell something eg hot dogs, buy marerials, hire and fire and pay taxes. Would get over the divide between doers and followers and the demonization of business

1/23/2013 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Magister said...

agreed, Jules, or at least be required to read Basic Economics by Sowell

my kids are running lemonade and hot chocolate stands during football season

you can imagine what a revelation it is to them to have to a) raise capital from me, b) pay rent to me, c) determine "pricing," especially in response to consumer demand (or lack thereof), d) the smallness of profit

then I tax them, "progressively," and tell them they're lucky they have no fixed labor costs

the size of this Clue Bat is wonderful to behold

1/23/2013 01:16:00 PM  
Blogger Magister said...

it used to be that kids did things like this to "learn the ropes"

I suspect this is getting rarer

and we wonder why the entrepreneurial spirit in America suffers

there's no wolf at the door anymore

some people say that wolves don't even exist

1/23/2013 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Regarding the left's current manic flight: we can all take consolation in the fact that what cannot continue will not continue.

1/23/2013 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

Changed Avatar Test.
(Charles Carter poster)

1/23/2013 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Or, to paraphrase Bobby Fuller, "I fought the math, and the math won."

"I needed money 'cause I had none," is not a valid excuse.

1/23/2013 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

"But epistemology evolves as we deepen our understanding of ontology.

When Wilber started saying that, basically, epistemology created ontology is when I knew that I was done with him.

1/23/2013 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

Thus saith Wilber:

The myth of the given is one of the book's primary topics. It is the belief that the world as it appears in my consciousness, as it is given to me, is somehow fundamentally real, foundationally real, and that therefore I can base my worldview upon whatever presents itself to my consciousness. For example, I might see a rock in front of me; I take that as real. I have an experience of anger; I take that as real. But the whole point is that what our awareness delivers to us is set in cultural contexts and many other kinds of contexts that cause an interpretation and a construction of our perceptions before they even reach our awareness. So what we call real or what we think of as given is actually constructed—it's part of a worldview.

1/23/2013 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Gilson makes a great point in this other book of his I just finished: that if you deny reality where it is found, you will end up finding it where it is not. That pretty much sums up the newage.

1/23/2013 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

Which leads me to wonder whether the worldview that all worldviews are simply worldviews is itself simply a worldview.

If it is, then it too is merely "constructed" and not simply "given". As far as I can tell, that's when the incoherencies start piling up.

Someone tell me how at that point the whole funhouse doesn't collapse in on itself.

1/23/2013 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

Quotidian consciousness IS stuck in dualistic unenlightened ruts....everything we know IS wrong...
yet nondual pure awareness is always an option because always right there like the pilot light in our hearts

If we could thoroughly alter our POV to...say, the Sun's or the Son's for instance... would we not live better for it?

1/23/2013 05:11:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

There is no exit from the Wilberian house of mirrors except via fantasy.

1/23/2013 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Nope. To paraphrase Aristotle, man does not make man to be man. Rather, we are what we are (because we are creatures). And a good thing, because otherwise we are truly nothing.

1/23/2013 05:14:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In a Wilberian universe, Hillary's incoherent testimony would be perfectly acceptable:

"What does it matter what happened?" + "We've got to find out what happened!"

1/23/2013 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Or as a commenter at Ace of Spades said in a completely different context:

"The Periodic Table is a living breathing document with emanations and penumbras."

1/23/2013 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

and her 3rd & 4th options: "We didnt have enough $$ to see to it that it didnt happen" ..."It was a vast wight wing conspiwacy!"

1/23/2013 05:28:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Great observation by Ace on the secret source of liberal superiority and intolerance:

"I think about this a lot because of all the anger on the left -- they don't seem to be just talking about politics. So what are they talking about? Why is it so emotionally charged with them all the time?

"If it's emotional, it must be personal, and if it's personal, one next wonders what makes it so personal. And what makes it personal is that liberalism is not, for many, about politics, but about identifying themselves -- and their egos -- with Better People whose august company they aspire to join.

"And when you contradict their liberal beliefs, then, you're not just having a dispute about politics; you're contradicting the very thing that gives them self-worth, their tenuous connection, somehow, to celebrities and famous professors. They're not celebrities and famous professors themselves, of course, but by aping the attitudes and mores of such persons, they are identifying themselves as being essentially the same as such persons, and they derive a great deal of comfort for their egos from that connection.

"So when you denigrate liberalism, you're knocking the very thing that Elevates them into the Upper Classes. (In their minds, subconsciously.)"

*****

I think Ms. G. recently lost another liberal friend because of this dynamic.

1/23/2013 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

For which reason we are probably in the market for new godparents. That's two in a row!

1/23/2013 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Which, if it turns out to be the case, will prove that for certain liberals, there really is nothing more sacred than free birth control.

1/23/2013 05:41:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

"And when you contradict their liberal beliefs, then, you're not just having a dispute about politics; you're contradicting the very thing that gives them self-worth, their tenuous connection, somehow, to celebrities and famous professors. They're not celebrities and famous professors themselves, of course, but by aping the attitudes and mores of such persons, they are identifying themselves as being essentially the same as such persons, and they derive a great deal of comfort for their egos from that connection."

Yes, but why would you decided to ape celebrities and famous professors in the first place?

1/23/2013 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

"I think Ms. G. recently lost another liberal friend because of this dynamic."

Which third rail did she touch?

1/23/2013 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I think either guns or free birth control ("vote with your lady parts"). There's no way of knowing for sure.

1/23/2013 06:13:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

"I think either guns or free birth control ("vote with your lady parts"). There's no way of knowing for sure."

This go-round with guns really seemed to freak out the Liberal Mind because it was set off by elementary school students.

It was kind of the perfect storm in terms of a massive emotional eruption.

I mean, I've never seen anything like it, seriously.

The birth control issue really seems to be more of a whiny entitlement thing.

1/23/2013 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

Jack said "Someone tell me how at that point the whole funhouse doesn't collapse in on itself."

Easy. If your worldview is based on substituting what you want to be real, for what is real... then you really don't have to acknowledge it when you don't see it anymore(and just do your best not to let anyone see you stepping around the wreckage).

A fool proof strategy that has held up against reality for centuries.

1/23/2013 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

Do they think that the right *wants* mentally ill people or criminals to run around with guns killing random people?

1/23/2013 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Correction: white elementary school students. 500 black kids a year in Chicago (or whatever the figure) elicits no similar response from the liberal media. More generally, liberals don't give a shit when a black kid dies, unless a white person was responsible. Which is approximately never.

1/23/2013 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Mabye it was the mandatory waiting period and background check for birth control or free guns -- which actually makes more sense.

1/23/2013 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

JP said "Yes, but why would you decided to ape celebrities and famous professors in the first place?"

Um, because they seem to be everything you fantasize about being your reality. Duh.

1/23/2013 06:30:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Bob@ 5:26 - yes, I almost linked to that one here earlier today.

Had an interesting conversation with a couple of parents at a playground today. One was a dad originally from S. Africa, the other a mom from somewhere in Europe. Somehow, they started talking about guns, and at first it seemed like the dad was in favor of bans; then he started talking about his experiences growing up in Africa. By the time they both left, I was wondering if he wasn't deliberately trying to sway the European woman against British-style gun control. She seemed a bit flustered when she left...

1/23/2013 06:35:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

I like the Velociman quote. That was a great post...

1/23/2013 06:37:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1/23/2013 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Idealistic philosophies are a game for the frivolous. It generally takes something like this for people to realize that reality doesn't play, and that that your magical thoughts are no defense.

1/23/2013 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

Van- Yes, I have seen that ploy used many, many times. For if reality is only what one says it is, then logic only applies when one wants it to apply. Which increasing, for the left, hardly ever.

If one accepts this denial of reality then the number one rule seems to be that they get to make up the rules. And the right to change them at will. At that point anything resembling rational discussion goes right out the Overton window.

1/23/2013 06:59:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

I tried to edit my comment for the sake of better clarity. Sometimes it is best to leave mediocre enough alone!

I meant:

Which increasingly for the left is hardly ever.

My apologies.

1/23/2013 07:01:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

This is a good one: Have you noticed liberals always favorably compare Obama to Republican Presidents?

1/23/2013 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger ted said...

Someone call for new godparents?!

1/23/2013 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

Leave your comment but know
We--will--We--will Mock You!!

1/24/2013 04:56:00 AM  
Blogger Van Harvey said...

(stomp, stomp ... clap, stomp, stomp...clap)

1/24/2013 05:17:00 AM  
Blogger ted said...

Well, now you tell us Bob (ref: mock quote). And all this time, I thought it was just me. :)

I will say one thing with respect to Wilber. If it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't be here. I needed someone like him, with the rigor and clarity, along with the postmodern memetic sensibility, to get me to take this journey seriously. The whoo-whoo new agers wouldn't do that, nor would the classical traditionalists. I needed someone I could relate to -- with a particular archetype in a particular time. And for that, I will always be grateful.

1/24/2013 05:50:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Same here. But that's a separate issue.

1/24/2013 07:06:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

i always felt the best of Wilber was not his books but his homages to Da Bubba, like Ginsberg's homages to Kerouac [don't need his poesy]

1/24/2013 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

argument against same sex
marriage

1/24/2013 07:15:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

lol

1/24/2013 07:25:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

"I will say one thing with respect to Wilber. If it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't be here. I needed someone like him, with the rigor and clarity, along with the postmodern memetic sensibility, to get me to take this journey seriously. The whoo-whoo new agers wouldn't do that, nor would the classical traditionalists. I needed someone I could relate to -- with a particular archetype in a particular time. And for that, I will always be grateful."

I think that I was looking for a metaphysical vision, along with guns and ammo.

I spun the Wheel of Fortune and ended up here.

Which pointed me to MOT, which was what was apparently what I was looking for in the first place.

1/24/2013 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

It's like I said about mountain biking: keep looking ahead, not down at the obstacles. Or keep your I on O.

1/24/2013 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Ted's gratitude for Wilber reminds me that I've said similar things for Steven Covey. Corny as that may sound, I can't deny it.
In two days it will be six years since finding this place (Bob, how do you do it). I remember how I got here. There were big steps and course-corrections between Covey and here. And steps before him.
Anyway, the other day I was thinking, how did JP get here? I think I remember the day Mushroom showed up. But I don't remember how he found his way here, if I ever knew. Julie was here before me and Van, Joan and Ben, and Walt maybe he's still here. Others old and new.
I was an occasional reader of American Thinker and I just happened on an article by the editor (Lifeson?) who was talking about a puzzling piece written by Bob. I went and was hooked. I can't tell you how easily I could have missed that AT article completely. Or before that how the one time Rush mentioned AT and that's how I got there.
I know how I got here but I don't know how each one of you did, "my brothers and sisters under the pelt." I'll bet I'm not the only one who feels some amazed gratitude for how they got here.
If it's all right to ask for an early anniversary present, I'd like to hear how each of you got here. If it's not too much trouble or too personal. And if it's ok with Bob and doesn't mess with the blogstream.
Thanks,
Rick

1/24/2013 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Hi Rick,

I don't know precisely how or when I ended up here, though I seem to recall I followed a link from one of the psych blogs - probably Sigmund, Carl and Alfred, though it could also have been Dr. Sanity or Neo or Shrinkwrapped. I was looking for something, but I didn't know what. And I wanted - needed - to know more about the Trinity.

It was sometime probably early to mid 2006. I don't remember what the post was that I first saw, only that I was hooked from the start. In hindsight, I was pretty rough around the edges then; I had been reading a lot of blogs that were Conservative, but with a rough-minded almost angry type of humor. Anyway, within the first few days of finding OC Bob had a post up where he touched on gay parenting, and I decided to take umbrage on behalf of a gay parent I knew. The trouble was, he was arguing from generalities and all I had was a specific - one who, in truth, probably fell in line with a lot of the generalities he was discussing. I knew my argument was false even as I made it.

Well, Van was already here, so between him and Bob and a few others (many who've disappeared along the way), I got the cluebatting I deserved. I've stuck around ever since.

1/25/2013 12:11:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0011 said...

"I don't remember what the post was that I first saw, only that I was hooked from the start. "

I had a few dry runs before I got hooked, Julie. As Bob said before, the stuff here is pretty ... arcane for most people.

I didn't 'get it' until a year and a half ago (Whereas before if found the data a bit too 'dense' for my tastes and could only linger for short periods.

Now, I read, re-read, ruminate and then re-read again looking for glimmers in the depths for whatever truffle-like treasures there are to find.

Its too bad I read so gosh darn slow as I am behind in reading Bobs' MOTT a year ago in november when I took a hiatus. Ironically, he is going to restart on the MOTT and yet again I will be on hiatus from Cyberspace very soon.

*sigh*

These are definately bedtime stories for me. Its a shame that Bob doesn't make his own "Unifinished Tales and other Bobservations" Book as JRR Tolkiens kin had done.

I know I'd certainly buy as there are far too many quotable things (and essays here) for me to even bother keeping track of since I can readily find it here.

1/25/2013 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Why would the state-run media attack its opponents? It makes no sense.

1/25/2013 08:28:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Thanks, Julie. I didn't know that story. Which reminds me that I thin Ben met Bob in comments over at Little Green Footballs. If that's even a place anymore.

Like you maybe, when I said hooked, I don't mean to say I knew what I was reading, just that I couldn't stop reading it. I must have read a hundred posts that weekend. I'd never read anything like it before, I didn't know what it was, I just knew it was "something". And by something, I mean real.
And that malnutritioned muscle o mine that detected this something needed exercise.

1/26/2013 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Thanks, Cond0011.
You said, "looking for glimmers in the depths for whatever truffle-like treasures there are to find."

And the more you look, the more you find.
I'm one of those weirdos that likes that program Downton Abbey. It's good at what it is supposed to be. (And I actually think there's more to it than what appears on the surface. [I think the writers are conservative]) Anyway, the season premiere was a 2 hour long thing that moved pretty slow (I fell asleep about 10 times) but thankfully I didn't miss this one scene of a conversation between the bride and groom-to-be that took place "through" a door. If that's ever been done before, it erased my memory of every other time it was attempted.

1/26/2013 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Hi Rick!
Actually, I believe I saw Bob first at Dr. Sanity and then at Shrinkwrapped (or vice versa).
Although I do recall Bob's infamous but excellent one liners at LGF. :^)

When Bob announced at Shrinkwrapped he was starting a blog I had to check it out.

Warily I read Bob's first posts and couldn't decide if he was a genius or simply bonkers.
I also at first jumped to the wrong conclusion, thinking maybe Bob was just a very smart new ager.
Maybe.

But I couldn't stop reading, and eventually it started to sink in and I realized that finding OCUG wasn't a coincidence oir accident, and Bob definitely wasn't a new ager of any stripe.

I believe it is Bob's ingenious humor that hooked me, and then his great (or terribly delicious) puns.
I'm a long time punster at heart.

I'm really thankful I found this place because it helps me grow so much, and it's comforting to know I got bro's and sis's out there that are also on a quest for Truth, Justice, The American Way, The Way, O, Beauty, Goodness, Satire, Humor, etc.!

2/02/2013 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Hi Ben!
Thanks fur that. Mighty kind of you.

2/02/2013 12:56:00 PM  

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