Friday, April 20, 2012

Photosynthesis, Pneumosynthesis, Logosynthesis

It is impossible to respond to a simpleton who imagines that because one is religious one is somehow "anti-science," because the person who makes such a statement is living in an ontologically closed world, and therefore cannot escape his own little self-imposed prison. The assertion itself is profoundly anti-science, if by science we mean something based upon logic and evidence, but this is another of those ironies lost on the vertical amnesiac.

I'd like to complete our journey From Big Bang to Big Mystery before getting back to Voegelin. Bearing in mind what was said in the first paragraph, Purcell references a remark by Wittgenstein, who, in a lucid moment, observed that "even when all possible scientific questions have been answered, our problems of life remain completely untouched.... One keeps forgetting to go right down to the foundations. One doesn't put the question marks down deep enough."

Right? Right. Either one gets this, or one doesn't, so there's nothing to argue about. It couldn't be more clear, so if you don't understand it, you are cosmically retarded and beyond help. You are ø, and you have no one to blame but your(•).

Now, why this statement should be controversial is beyond me, and it seems to me that the only objection to it would be on the grounds of a blind hatred of religion, for religious metaphysics picks up where science leaves off, and certainly not just in terms of the old "God of the gaps" canard.

Rather, religion primarily deals with being, whereas science can only cope with existence. Obviously, existence is a "special case" of being, and science, in order to operate at all, must take being for granted.

Conversely, metaphysics begins with principles of being; it is higher up the cosmic food chain, so that nothing that occurs in science can violate it, say, the law of non-contradiction, or of sufficient reason, or of not walking the first batter of an inning.

The other day we spoke of spiritual and intellectual wet and dry rot. Both of them occur as a result of a conflation of being and existence. Scientism, for example, which is the quintessential form of dry rot, confuses what it can affirm about reality with all that can be affirmed about reality, which is why it is so anti-intellectual to the core.

For one of the first things the scientistic worshiper must jettison is the intellect per se, which of necessity (for him) reduces to something less than itself, on pain of a self-refuting contradiction. And in the absence of the intellect (nous), no higher realities can be perceived at all, so the result is a closed circle of ideological fantasy.

Conversely, wet rot occurs when existence is confused with being, so that things that pertain to the vertical are mindlessly transposed to the horizontal. In this regard, Voegelin points out that we have indeed seen a beneficial differentiation within the Ground over the centuries.

In other words, man first awakens to a kind of compacted realm of being, and our journey through history allows us to unpack and map its dimensions and coordinates, both horizontally and vertically. Things were pretty jumbled at the start of history, for the same reason that things are pretty jumbled for an infant.

One doesn't have to travel too far back in time to see a conflation of science and religion to the detriment of both. For every kooky religious idea there was an equally kooky scientific idea, say, the theory of blood-letting that for so many centuries made a visit from the doctor a deadly gamble.

Probably the most detailed map ever made of the totality of reality was by Thomas Aquinas. Naturally, parts of it are now obsolete because of the state of 13th century science, which has evolved so dramatically since then.

But nothing that has occurred in science has posed any fundamental challenge to Thomas's metaphysics, given some tinkering at the edges. To the contrary, something like the Big Bang would be a necessary consequence of his metaphysics (although he also allowed for the possibility that the cosmos has no horizontal boundary, so long as one bears in mind the priority of atemporal, vertical creation).

One might say that science can only take a view from "inside" the cosmos, whereas metaphysics is able to take the wider view from the perspective of being as such. Now granted, few people are metaphysicians, hence the beauty of revelation, which conveys the essential truths -- the one thing needful -- to those who are open to them. These truths resonate on a level much deeper than the conscious ego, which is why they evoke (and deserve) our faith.

You might say that being pertains to the Center, science to the periphery. Now, everywhere we look, we see signs of the Center poking through the periphery, and one might even say that it is our duty to be aware of this phenomenon as much as possible, for it is the essence of maintaining an open and wide stance to the queerness of reality.

Again, for Voegelin, all forms of pneumopathology involve spiritual and intellectual closure. To put it the other way around, our task is to maintain noetic and pneumatic openness to the world and to experience (for there is no unexperienced world; or, it won't "ex-ist" until someone experiences it).

I remember back in grade school, learning about biology. I don't know if it is still true today, but back then photosynthesis was a big mystery. And this is no mere peripheral concern, because photosynthesis is the very engine of life.

"Photo," of course, is light. Does anyone really understand how light is converted to the energy and information that powers the whole biosphere? I mean, I fully realize that there are scientific explanations, but do they bring the question marks all the way down to the foundation? Because I personally find it peculiar beyond words that sunlight can be transformed into plants, animals, symphonies, poetry, stupidity, everything.

At any rate, if we transpose this mystery to the level of man, we see something analogous, which I call pneumosynthesis and logosynthesis, or the transformation of spirit and reason, respectively. However, we could also just call it photosynthesis, since both of these organic mechanisms, just like their biological cousin, involve transformations of Light -- spiritual Light and intellectual Light.

One problem -- and this is addressed by Voegelin, just as it is by Schuon -- is that we no longer have proper words for these higher human functions, since they have been confused with lower ones. As Voegelin put it, we can no longer use words such as "intellect," or "spirit," or "reason" in the manner of a Plato or Thomas.

For which reason I developed those abstract symbols for them, so we wouldn't imagine we know what we are talking about just because we have words for them.

Note that this linguistic pathology is the result of a devolution, which, instead of taking us from compaction to differentiation, takes us in the opposite direction, back to compaction. Someone like our troll William lives in a compacted and de-differentiated world, which again accounts for the breezy confidence he has in his own stupidity.

Obviously, in order to describe reality we need words, but if these words become corrupted, then the ability to perceive reality is compromised.

For example, on a mundane level, if you confuse "liberal" with "leftist," you will lose the ability to perceive political reality. Likewise, if you fail to understand the distinction between male and female (in the spiritual sense), sexual reality is lost to you (or you will only exist on a quasi-animal sexual level).

The question is, is this attack on language intentional or just a result of stupidity? Hard to tell, but I suggest we judge them by their fruits. I do sense a kind of deep malevolence behind the attacks from elites, but the rank-and-foul leftist often has a good spirit that has just been manipulated by elites and hijacked by bad ideas. Such people are educable and correctable, and grateful for the heads-up.

I suppose that would be the key: the non-malevolent person can be helped, because deep down he remains open to reality in all its fulness, and hate hasn't supplanted love (for one who doesn't love truth will never know it).

Many are the times I've given a spontaneous spiel to one of these individuals, which has prompted a flood of vertical recollection which then sends them on a path back to themselves and back to reality. I've got the letters and emails to prove it.

To be continued....

107 Comments:

Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

Happy Friday, brethren under the pelt.

4/20/2012 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

I mean, I fully realize that there are scientific explanations, but do they bring the question marks all the way down to the foundation? Because I personally find it strange beyond words that sunlight can be transformed into plants, animals, symphonies, poetry, everything.

Amen. The how of photosynthesis can never take away from the genuine mystery that it should happen at all. Here, too, is why science is in no way a threat to religion based in Truth: every true discovery speaks to the wonder of creation. To fall into the trap of thinking that because one understands the mechanism one understands the whole is to lose the sense of wonder and mystery that anything is, and that we can know about it.

I love science. I love to learn about how things work, and to see the Mystery in action. It's like learning about a magic trick that only gets more magical the more one understands.

4/20/2012 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Joan, that is awesome :D

4/20/2012 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

Bob -

I just want to say you've been on fire for the last several posts. Usually (during my internet sojourns) I take a snippet or two, or if the post is good, to archive the link. But these go beyond all that. I feel that I am in a class learning some amazing things - but with no syllabus, no framework, no guidance except your inner compass. ...and here I am being part of these moments.

I am not sure how I am going to archive these things, maybe even make a print out, I'm not sure at the moment, but I will think of something.

I just want to thank you for these experiences.

4/20/2012 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger John Lien said...

Joan, Too cute!
Julie, agreed.
Cond0010, I second that. I'm just counting on the internet never going down. (Funny, things just brightened briefly outside. Hmmm, intere

4/20/2012 10:58:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"I don't know if it is still true today, but back then photosynthesis was a big mystery. And this is no mere peripheral concern, because photosynthesis is the very engine of life. "

Yea. its the 'Tree Stars'. Time for another moment about the miracle of existence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo#t=2m12s

I may have posted it before, but it is worthy.

4/20/2012 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

Now, everywhere we look, we see signs of the Center poking through the periphery, and one might even say that it is our duty to be aware of this phenomenon as much as possible ...

It is our job to be disturbed, in a positive sense. I know there are some materialists who will claim that wonder exists in the world even while insisting that it is clearly meaningless. But if they are correct then their "wonder" is simply a matter of misguided perception. Like Jesus on toast.

@John & Cond0010, Yes, an EMP would be very bad.

4/20/2012 01:37:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

Thanks, Joan, he even drops stuff on his pants like I do.

4/20/2012 01:38:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"For which reason I developed those abstract symbols for them, so we wouldn't imagine we know what we are talking about just because we have words for them."

Check! And balance.
It must gall the trolls since they can't distort and corrupt symbols like they do words.

Troll: "Hey, words mean whatever I want them to mean at any given moment. That's the beauty of words."

No. No. Well, at least they remove all doubt and prove they are filthy, foolish sheep.
Perhaps if they used a bit of WooLight then they might, might grok some truth.

It's been known to happen. :^)

Fascinating, and revelating series Bob!

4/20/2012 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Bravo zulu Joan! Ha ha!

4/20/2012 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"Conversely, metaphysics begins with principles of being; it is higher up the cosmic food chain, so that nothing that occurs in science can violate it, say, the law of non-contradiction, or of sufficient reason, or of not walking the first batter of an inning."

I think that explains a lot of the hostility trolls have.
They are so used to being able to vandalize and corrupt everything around them in an effort to coopt the truth (a truth they have distorted) and use it for power.

They can't do that to metaphysics because metaphysics is much more than language.
Besides, first principles are indestructable.
So when idiots try to coopt their own corrupt version of the absolute it's like headbutting a Rock.

Of course, that doesn't stop them from trying.
It's like watching Wile E. Coyote.
The trolls break out all their Ackme products in an elaborate attempt to destroy, corrupt, gain power, pat their ego on the back and for what?

Apparently they get something out of it. Attention I guess.
Seems they just get frustrated because of the multitude of dysfunktions they have.

They can't corruptulate and they blame us.
What a dreary existance they have.
To put all their energy into "I think therefor..." instead of "I Am" is hell on will.

4/20/2012 02:51:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"I love science. I love to learn about how things work, and to see the Mystery in action. It's like learning about a magic trick that only gets more magical the more one understands."

Well said, Julie! :^)

4/20/2012 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

The problem with religious metaphyisics is that is based on a reality created by a human belief system.


No kidding? Imagine that.

4/20/2012 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

And now, for a quick game of "William said:"

Tonight:
"'because one is religious one is somehow "anti-science,"'
This is unnecessarily provocative."

Just a couple weeks back:
"Question to all you educated conservatives: aren't you embarrassed to be part of the anti-science/ anti-education party? ... Republicans are afraid of REAL science with authentic qualifications..."

Back in August:
"Conservatives seem to be a lower evolved sect of humanity. Kind of like modern humans 50,000 yrs ago that coexisted with the Neanderthals. Very similiar.

Science denying, superstitious. Study after study after study has shown conservatives do not handle information well."


Now, what was that about faux wars?

4/20/2012 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"As Bob, JG Condon, Van, Julie have shown here, it is imperative not only to try and discredit, but to disparage liberals - both as a group and individually with personal attacks. "

Talk about Turnspeak:

"...you attack someone and then turn it around 180 degrees and claim they attacked you."

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/turnspeak.html

If you feel 'attacked' then just ... leave.

4/21/2012 06:42:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"Demagoguery is one of their driving and uniting forces, they depend and thrive on it. "

Lets visit the definiton of a Demagogue:

1. A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

So... a Demagogue would be:

Like the LameStreamMedia and the Trayvon Martin case?

http://fsblog.s3.amazonaws.com/zimmerman.mp4

Or like Obama's demogoguery?

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/294481/obama-s-demagoguery-victor-davis-hanson

Or how about the Godfather of Modern Demagoguery, Saul Alinsky?

http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/2009/08/alinskys-rules-for-radicals-for-dummies.html

IOW, William, you are guilty of distorts, Turnspeak, and lies. By Menckens definition of Demagoguery ("one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.") YOU ARE A DEMAGOGUE.

So, keep it up, William. All I got to do is take your words, turn it upside down, and I have the correct answer (Black is white, Up is down, right is wrong, etc...)

Troll.

4/21/2012 07:12:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Once again, by happy circumstance I just this morning read a relevant tidbit from Tomberg, re. the golden calf the Jews created while Moses was up on the mountain getting to know the Absolute:

"What was the nature of the need and yearning of the will of the people that was satisfied in this manner? It was the basic need, the very first kind of democratic striving, to worship something higher and obey it--something that one has willed oneself, projected and created from one's own will. This is an incarnation of the collective will of the people... Its commandments do not say 'you shall,' but instead 'We want.'"

4/21/2012 07:25:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

(per William) "Evidence is always vague, nonexistant, often greatly exaggerated."

So when you post this article:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/27847/majority-republicans-doubt-theory-evolution.aspx

...and there are a multitude of different views such as this:

Creationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
Intelligent Design http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design
Evolutionary Creationism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
Darwinian Evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Above is a fine example of a distortion posted by William. Its not eiter Darwinian Evolution OR Creationism. So, tell me, William, who's "Evidence is always vague, nonexistant, often greatly exaggerated."

Pot, meet Kettle.

4/21/2012 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

I do regret that took such a hard tact with conservatives but it is lightweight compared to the way I've been treated here.

Oh, should we fetch you a waaaaaahmbulance? Poor baby, you came charging in here acting like a complete prick from the start, and for some reason you can't get no respect. Here, let me whip out my teeny violin so I can play "My heart bleeds for you."

The TN evolution bill, like in other state - proposed and created by Republicans - presupposes that sciences like evolution are controversial and require "debate". They are not.

Oh? Gosh, I must have missed all the big press releases proclaiming that all the missing links between one stage of development and the next have been found and strung together without any gaps or mysteries remaining. And heaven forfend any poor kid should get it in his mind to wonder how a fish became a mammal, and why it seems to have only happened at one point in earth's history and nevermore (unless I'm mistaken and there have been a spate of fish-mammals living along the edges of various shorelines that I just haven't noticed nor ever heard of), or how the bombardier beetle managed to evolve without getting literally blown up in the process? Or for that matter, what drove mere matter to start acting in its own interests, instead of just existing subject to inertia, like pretty much every other bit of matter in the universe.

To say that "the science is settled," or in your words that "there is no debate" is to prevent any kid from wondering about these things and deciding to try to find out more; it is to prematurely kill the desire to discover more with a peremptory and ultimately meaningless phrase: "They evolved. End of story."

End of thought.

4/21/2012 07:51:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"The fact is, reality has nothing to do with human belief systems. Some say that trying to cram the concept f God into such a narrow and human-created box, is demeaning to the greatness of what God is - or whatever you want to call that higher order."

Hey Bob!

William just had a glimmer of the vertical! So he's an agnostic and not an atheist. Bravo, William, one more step into the light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hprKBU9btN8

You have just begun your journey. ..and this is a good blog to go to for that sort of thing. :)

4/21/2012 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

Time for a rhetorical happy dance:

Every time an Atheist becomes Agnostic, an Angel gets his wings.

4/21/2012 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

If the teachers are really that stupid, then your state has much bigger problems than the teaching of creationism in schools.

4/21/2012 08:31:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"The scientific community, the Smitsonian Institution, the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, the American Museum of Natural History, they're all spreading lies and the creationists at the Discovery Institute are the only ones that 'have the real truth?'"

Max Planck, Scientist, Founder of Quantum Theory, was a devout Christian, William:

"Both Religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at the end of all considerations…"

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the EXISTANCE OF A CONSCIOUS AND INTELLIGENT MIND."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck

Doesn't sound like a purist in the Darwinian Evolutionary school of thought, does he?

4/21/2012 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Cond - exactly.

And I'll second what Bob said. If Tennessee schools cannot procure science teachers who actually understand science, it demonstrates a huge failing in the public school system as a whole - not just at the elementary levels, but the collegiate levels as well.

4/21/2012 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Voegelin speaks for me (not sure when he said it, but it's timeless anyway):

'You get some funny situations. In California now there is a fight between literalists and biological theorists. And you get in the textbooks both Genesis and Darwinian evolutionism as two "theories" of evolution. You see what that really means? The fundamentalist theologians in California don't know what a myth is. They believe it is a theory. They're in ignorance. And the biological theorists don't know why one cannot have an immanentist theory of evolution. One can have empirical observation but no general theory of evolution because the sequence of forms is a mystery; it just is there and you cannot explain it by any [immanentist] theory. It is a mythical problem, so you have a strong element of myth in the theory of evolution. So both the theoretical evolutionists and the fundamentalist theologians are illiterate.'

4/21/2012 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Yes, exactly! And to dogmatically adhere to either extreme is, again, to kill curiosity.

4/21/2012 08:55:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

The point is that anti-intellectual scientism evokes anti-intellecutal fundamentalism, as William proves here on a daily basis. Two sides of the same illiterate and pre-philosophical coin.

4/21/2012 08:56:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"So both the theoretical evolutionists and the fundamentalist theologians are illiterate."

Gee Bob,

That pretty much sums up Williams argument with himself (Darwinian Evolutionists vs Creationists). Actually reading a book might be good for William. It may even help him get past his reflexive and over-exaggerated generalizations that he smears all over the comment sections.

But I doubt it.

4/21/2012 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

LOL you beat me to it, Bob.

4/21/2012 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Sadly, no - if he could, we wouldn't be subject to his persistent inanities.

4/21/2012 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

willian said "The fact is, reality has nothing to do with human belief systems."

A confession that should churn your soul sick to your stomach. Look at what you said willian, and dare to understand it.

I'll bring the question up again, in your own mind, or whatever passes for one with you: Why do you consider Hitler to be a bad guy? We all know the things he did, tell us, tell yourself, why was it bad that he did them? What do you base that on?

Run away willian.

"...s controversial, you may want to look at the list of statements from hundreds of national, state and international scien..."

Yes, look at the statements, the many statements, statements whose power comes from their quantity, from the number of others who 'believe' them along with you, not because they are true - God no! - but because their numbers make them more real in your manmade reality, than the dangerous reality beyond the cave, where truth blasts your power of quantities to bits.

Demagogue.

Twit.

You cannot say why something is bad, if you cannot say why something is Good. And until you seek what is in reality True, you are in perpetuity barred from it.

4/21/2012 09:01:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"But he cannot read, not in any deep sense of the word."

@ Bob:

Well, it may add some fiber to his diet.

http://files.myopera.com/Hermitess/albums/754537/GoatBraces2.jpg

That's good for a healthy colon.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/colon-blow/229046

4/21/2012 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I have posted at length on this very subject:

'For materialism is one of the possible philosophical reactions to a senseless world devoid of formal or final causation. Literal creationism is another. The irony is again that Darwinism and creationism are not "opposites," but kissing cousins, just two possible responses to the modern rejection of the transcendentals that make the world intelligible.

Gilson brings out another fascinating irony -- and something that I've discussed in the past -- and that is that Darwinism is not only "anti-evolutionary," but renders evolution strictly impossible. The concept of evolution was around long prior to Darwin, and in fact, he didn't even mention the word in the first five editions of The Origin of Species. But Darwinians eventually hijacked and redefined the word, identical to how illiberal neo-Marxists hijacked and redefined "liberal."

The original meaning of the term "evolution" had to do with intelligible development -- for example, the manner in which the seed develops into the tree. Somehow the tree is "involved" in the seed, and the seed "evolves" into the tree. Thus, one could not speak of evolution without bringing in formal and final causation.

But this is the exact opposite of what Darwin believed. As Gilson explains, "Nothing is less like Darwin's doctrine than the idea that new species should be already present in their ancestors, from which they only have to evolve in the course of time." Therefore, Darwinian change does not disclose anything intelligible at all, for it is completely horizontal, just one meaningless change after another.

As Gilson correctly notes, "The human mind can grasp only that which is intelligible." Thus, "the meaning of absolutely directionless, meaningless, purposeless Darwinian change cannot really be grasped -- there is no meaning in such an alleged process, and thus no intelligibility." In the absence of an ordered framework -- which immediately implies transcendence and finality -- "pure chance or disorder is not something the mind can really know."

This is what I mean when I say that man can explain much more about Darwinism than Darwinism can explain about man, for to even say the word "truth" is to have transcended the meaninglessness of Darwinian change (not evolution).'

4/21/2012 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Note that William will not only misunderstand the above, but disunderstand it, which is a fascinating subject in itself.

4/21/2012 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Awesome post, by the way, I finally got to read it this morning.

"Conversely, metaphysics begins with principles of being; it is higher up the cosmic food chain, so that nothing that occurs in science can violate it, say, the law of non-contradiction, or of sufficient reason, or of not walking the first batter of an inning."

, and,

"One might say that science can only take a view from "inside" the cosmos, whereas metaphysics is able to take the wider view from the perspective of being as such. Now granted, few people are metaphysicians, hence the beauty of revelation, which conveys the essential truths -- the one thing needful -- to those who are open to them. These truths resonate on a level much deeper than the conscious ego, which is why they evoke (and deserve) our faith.

You might say that being pertains to the Center, science to the periphery. Now, everywhere we look, we see signs of the Center poking through the periphery, and one might even say that it is our duty to be aware of this phenomenon as much as possible, for it is the essence of maintaining an open and wide stance to the queerness of reality."

A person has a choice in where they will direct their attention: Towards recognizing that very part implies the whole, or towards breaking every part into still more parts, and the constant state of evasion it requires to see only parts.

The person who chooses the first is able to break any part into ever smaller parts, and never lose sight of the fact that that simply brings them into closer contact with the Whole.

The person who focuses on the second choice... is led on only by the power of breaking, is shoved in the same direction by their refusal to acknowledge what each disintegration implies. They can't escape it, they can only run from it.

Like a sprinter.

4/21/2012 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Bob @ 9:14 - Fascinating.

4/21/2012 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"One might say that science can only take a view from "inside" the cosmos, whereas metaphysics is able to take the wider view from the perspective of being as such. "

Yea, thats a terrific quote, Van. It reminds me of this video produced by the Muppets Creator 'Jim Henson' back when he didn't use humor for his teachable moments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKq12c6FAr0 (53 minutes - yikes! But good if you have the time)

Living life without ANY understanding of the Metaphysical must be a terrifying experience (like with the man in the above video). But then, the Statist Masters WANT you to live in fear - thus their drive for dependency and control over you. Thats why there is a war on Christianity and any attempt to Know God (Metaphysics).

4/21/2012 09:31:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I don't think it's a terrifying experience. It's just a stupid experience, since it again denies the object of intelligence.

4/21/2012 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Again, Voegelin intended "radical stupidity" as a term of art, not abuse. To be noetically and pneumatically closed is to render oneself stupid.

4/21/2012 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I might add -- for the umpteenth time -- that I was once as stupid as William, so I know exactly where he is coming from. He's very nostalgic in that way.

4/21/2012 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

@ Julie 9:26.

Wow! Spock's coping mechanism with dealing with things outside his logical framework.

His moment of glimpsing the Iron City of Dis. Most fascinating.

4/21/2012 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

@ Bob - I don't doubt you were once quite as dense as he is, but I really have to wonder if you were as relentlessly obnoxious about it...

4/21/2012 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Another point: if this were just a kind of adolescent phase for William, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, for the same reason that an ignorant child is not a tragedy, since his present point of development is just a temporary weigh station. The latter is only tragic if he cannot develop beyond childhood, to his proper telos. If this were not the case, then a mute and drooling infant would be as depressing as a mute and drooling stroke victim.

4/21/2012 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Julie, it's hard to say. One likes to think that there is a kind of inevitable telos that draws us toward ourselves, or that one is made of a finer substance, but that is to say that history is fixed and that there is no room for contingency. Who knows. But if the internet had been available back then, I wonder if I too might have become arrested at the William Point, just heckling my betters for reasons unknown to me.

4/21/2012 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Good lord willian, if you're going to troll, at least use your own words, we already know you don't have any ideas of your own, copying and pasting, or even shuffling around a word or two of it, isn't going to camouflage the fact.

At least have the courage of your own nothingness.

4/21/2012 09:52:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Bob, good point. The difference between interacting online and interacting face-to-face is so vast, and I think it really does have a crystallizing effect on many. It's easy to become entrenched when you don't have to experience the other person or people as anything but words on a screen, and of course that desire to go charging in can be addictive. Heck, if memory serves that's how I started off here. Of course, the difference being I was amenable to wisdom after a righteous cluebatting...

4/21/2012 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"It's just a stupid experience, since it again denies the object of intelligence."

heh. Especially if they come to accept the mind boundaries/fences that their leftist/statists have made for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8zNsUTWsOc

To believe in a God that transcends the State goes Beyond The Pale.

4/21/2012 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Van -- As I said, he's never had a novel or creative thought in his life, partly because his robotic worldview applies to computers, not to men. But I suspect he is drawn to his infrahuman metaphysic precisely because of his own psychic deadness, hence the inveterate lifting of the cliiches of others: second hand unoriginality.

4/21/2012 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

Evolution is but one of God's intelligent designs

President Romney

4/21/2012 09:59:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

To put it another way, I would be genuinely shocked to discover that William had ever come within spitting distance of the works of a single great metaphysician, or even any recent philosopher of science such as Whitehead or Polanyi. Again: hermetically sealed illiteracy, so he has no clue of what he is even caviling on about. But it is always more difficult to do battle with a weak mind than a strong one, for the same reason that it is difficult to nail Jello to the wall.

4/21/2012 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Where choices lead with out Truth to guide them:

Choice devours itself: Sweden wants to ban raising your kids at home

4/21/2012 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I might add that scientism allows a mediocre mind to vault itself above much deeper thinkers, in the same way that liberalism permits a mean-spirited and uncharitable person to believe he is the opposite of those things merely by voting Democrat. Just as there is "cheap grace," there is cheap intelligence and cheap morality.

4/21/2012 10:49:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"I might add that scientism allows a mediocre mind to vault itself above much deeper thinkers, "

Like our own 'Tickle me Emo' Troll "Unknown" who says 'Speak for yourself. There is no God.' ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAt329otj6Y#t=30s

Got that? No God.

4/21/2012 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

Is this William feuilleton a case of "iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another"? I personally have no need for it, as I already disagree with Bob, who disagrees with Schuon and so on back until Aristotle disagrees with Platon and Platon with Socrates. It seems to be an iron law of the intellectual life that a decent student will always differ from his teacher while owing him big time. The movement of the Light through human souls is a sight of amazing beauty and variation.

4/21/2012 01:06:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Yes, the divergences of the sages are a blessing.

And no matter how hard he tries, William's instrument isn't going to get any blunter.

4/21/2012 01:15:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Off topic, this is quite interesting: A doctor lectures on what is needed to bring more doctors in to the practice of medicine. Lots of wisdom there, including this:

"We are making tremendous technological strides in medicine. Students are better at science and technology than ever in our history.

But so often in the modern Western educational process, we educate science and medicine students to scoff at transcendence, at objective truth, at philosophy and at religious faith as seeming wastes of time.

I’ll speak from experience when I say that faith may often be the only source of strength left when our aspiring students face the realities of medical practice, the horrors of human inhumanity, the seeming cruelty of disease.

I am often asked about the worst thing I have seen. There are many. From dismembered individuals to burned ones, from abused children, to murdered men. From sudden cardiac arrest to lifelong suffering. Unless our young physicians have a framework within which to comprehend all of this, we do them a disservice. Double blinded studies, however well constructed, do not erase the terrors we sometimes see, and they do not offer explanations for the question ‘why.’

It is entirely unfair to ask them to perform what is arguably one of the most dangerous jobs in America, to expose themselves to disease, sometimes to violence, to litigation and to intensely delayed gratification, only to tell them they should make less money, work harder, follow more rules and then deny them any possibility that their faith, their belief in meaning or eternal reward, is silly and irrelevant.

Fortunately, their older mentors are on this path. Religious belief and worship service attendance by physicians is very high, according to a survey in 2005 by the University of Chicago. In fact, it showed that 90% of doctors in the US attend religious services at least occasionally and 55% said their beliefs influenced their practice.

We can have materialistic physicians ( in the philosophical sense) but we must reward them materially. If we want physicians who are more, we must allow them a hope of something greater than mere financial transactions or nebulous societal good."

4/21/2012 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Very well put. Jung said something similar, to the effect that he couldn't cure a person in the absence of a spiritual cure (I think AA borrowed that idea from him). At this point in my life, I can't even imagine looking at a patient only psychologically and not "pneumatologically." If I could, I'd become a clinical pneumatologist, except there's no such thing. Too bad, because it might be the one thing I'm cut out for.

4/21/2012 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

:)
It would definitely be a niche specialty.

4/21/2012 05:23:00 PM  
Blogger chris m said...

The bill that William has his panties in a wad about is probably designed to proactively counteract attacks on the school system brought about by the Freedom From Religion Foundation which has been very busy in TN threatening lawsuits against local school boards for bringing any forms of Christianity belief onto school property. For instance, in my town here in Middle Tn, the school board was threatened with a lawsuit because someone said a prayer before a kindergarden graduation ceremony last year. The school board buckled under rather than face the expense of a lawsuit from this well-funded foundation. I'm no lawyer, but it looks like Tennesseans would like to be able to speak of religious things in school, if they choose to do so, without threats from aethieistic organizations.

On a personal level, unlike William, I have two sons in the Tn. school system, and my husband and I have to conteract erroneous information from teachers, on a daily basis. Being presented with theories of Creationism is the least of our worries. And it's not just "backwoods" (as William disparages them) schools here in Tn. We have also had our sons in DODs military schools and the German school system. There is not a day that has gone by in any of those school systems that I haven't had to correct some kind of information or educate the boys on what we know or believe on a subject.

4/21/2012 05:36:00 PM  
Blogger chris m said...

Apologies for the misspellings.

This organization has been very busy: Freedom From Religion Foundation

http://ffrf.org/

Check out their legal actions and successes.

4/21/2012 05:49:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Chris:

"not a day has gone by that I haven't had to correct some kind of information or educate the boys on what we know or believe on a subject.

That is exactly my experience. I love my son's school, but that doesn't mean I don't have to sometimes reframe things, or provide a deeper explanation.

4/21/2012 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger William said...

First principle: All liberals are stupid. William is a liberal. William is stupid.

I love this story:

You've heard about the “pink slime,” the gunk made from the slurry off the slaughterhouse floor and ammonia gas that’s in the majority of ground beef in this country. Americans found out about the stuff and naturally recoiled. When conservatives realized that liberals were against it, three Republican governors rushed to factories that make pink slime to publicly eat burgers containing the additive.

That's what I'm takin' about.

4/21/2012 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

A leftist opposed to pink slime? So much for professional courtesy.

4/21/2012 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Since the state regards pink slime as perfectly innocuous -- which I'm sure it is -- I wonder if this will give pause to statists who want the same state to take over their healthcare?

Nah.

4/21/2012 08:07:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Although Obama was disgusted when he found out they put pink slim in his dogburger.

4/21/2012 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

willian said "First principle: All liberals are stupid."

Speak for yourself.

Coward.

4/21/2012 09:14:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Seriously, for the sake of diversity, if Tennesseans are going to allow an illiterate atheist like William to teach there for 23 years, it's only fair to give some illiterate creationists a shot.

4/21/2012 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"This is the same county where 400 teabaggers, 398 of them white, ..."

Teabaggers?

White?

Wow, Uncivil and racist all in one sentence. True 'White' is not a protected group by the PC police, thus its 'okay' by a liberal standpoint.

4/22/2012 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

(From William):

"First principle: All liberals are stupid. William is a liberal. William is stupid."

"When conservatives realized that liberals were against it, three Republican governors rushed to..."

Geez, William, this whole post is just crawling with... bias. Is everything so black and white to you? Or are you just trying to provoke us into doing something unwise?

(you know - pick a fight until someone loses their temper and goes to your website to post a few ad hominem's so you can go crying to anyone that will listen that the eeeeeeevil conservatives are after him)?

4/22/2012 06:23:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

The conservative War On Women. Will it ever end?

4/22/2012 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

New topic, if it's all right:

I have a theory (which is mine) that postpartum depression may be grief for the loss of another human being; for someone who was very close to the mother (and/or father).

4/22/2012 08:10:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"The conservative War On Women. Will it ever end?"

@Bob 0805:

My, now that's a real Hyper-Sexualized Lego figurine of a Woman.

Lego.

I'm going now. If you need me, I'll be in my bunk.

4/22/2012 08:19:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"This is the same county where 400 Gleebaggers, 398 of them white, ..."


What does Obama's campaign staff hafta do with this?

4/22/2012 08:54:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Gagdad Bob said...

"Although Obama was disgusted when he found out they put pink slim in his dogburger."

LOL! It took a half gallon of beaglejuice to wash it down.

4/22/2012 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Hi Rick,

I suppose that's a possibility, but seems to me that would more likely be a factor in making it more severe, not necessarily the sole cause. Hormones can really make people crazy. The only times I've ever had PMS were when I was young and on the pill; I felt like Jekyll and Hyde, and that was only a couple of times, for a day or so each. I can't even imagine how awful it would be to have that sort of hormonal imbalance wreaking havoc for days or weeks after giving birth, but undoubtedly that does happen to some women some of the time.

4/22/2012 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Re. the Legos, what I want to know is, what's so wrong with being barefoot and pregnant, anyway? It's how I plan on spending the next few months...

4/22/2012 09:06:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

It's just male womb-envy.

4/22/2012 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Gagdad Bob said...

"Van -- As I said, he's never had a novel or creative thought in his life, partly because his robotic worldview applies to computers, not to men. But I suspect he is drawn to his infrahuman metaphysic precisely because of his own psychic deadness, hence the inveterate lifting of the cliches of others: second hand unoriginality."

Ah yes, the signature of the "progressive."

This explains why even liberals often won't support their own dogma (although Obama has been known to eat it).

For instance, Err Amerikkka would've stayed in business if at least 50% of libs listened to it.

I mean, not only was it a 24/7, unhinged rant but it wasn't remotely original or entertaining.

When monkeys throwin' crap at the zoo is more entertaining than the best of the best that liberals have to offer it doesn't take a liberal perfessor to figure out they're doin' it wrong.
'Cause the tenured can't see the sewer for the shit.

4/22/2012 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

@Rick 08:10

"I have a theory (which is mine) that postpartum depression may be grief for the loss of another human being; for someone who was very close to the mother (and/or father)."

I just google "Postpartum Depression" and the internet definition (at this time in history) refers to it as the moderate to severe depression of a woman after childbirth. I THINK you are referring to the wide range of the whole topic of 'Depression' and that the grief of the loss of a parent.

Yes, I agree. The loss of a parent is one of the biggest stressors one can have in life and that clinical Depression may occur.

To acknowledge that you can become beyond sad (Depressed) about the loss IS stress relief in itself. Most people just need a few good friends to visit and 'sing glad songs' with in that most terrible times.

Sometimes, more is needed. Listen to your heart, Rick. Its a beautiful diagnostic tool for us common men.

4/22/2012 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

@ Bob - Funny, that one never occurs to me.

When it comes from women, I'm pretty sure it's the childless who are terrified of pregnancy who look down on the whole thing as some kind of parasitic infection that will keep them from realizing their true potential in life.

4/22/2012 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Thanks, Julie.
To factor in:
- My wife did not suffer from it.
- Men do, apparently. (I did, sort of, 9 months before the birth, but only instantaneously.)

When I said "loss of a human being" who we're you thinking of?

4/22/2012 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I think it's why men generally have a stronger drive to create, i.e., to bring an unborn into the world.

4/22/2012 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Then again liberal perfessors get paid to fling their shit.
Quite possibly the dirtiest job in America.

4/22/2012 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Rick, good questions. I didn't suffer from it with L, but my sister who's just had her 5th kid had it every time. I don't think my husband went through it, but I think that for men there are both hormonal (though hopefully less severe) and emotional issues.

To be honest, when you said "the loss of a person" I assumed it was the loss of the person one was before becoming a parent. As Bob has often said, every birth is a death...

4/22/2012 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Cond, no, I'm not thinking of the wide topic of depression. I have a friend (seriously :-) who just had a baby (yesterday) and I was reminded of it. She is not suffering that symptom as far as I know. I was just reminded.

4/22/2012 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Julie, precisely! the person I was thinking of.
Bob's post reminded of the father that is contains in the boy, or the mother in the girl, as the tree is contained in the seed. Another kind of telos.

4/22/2012 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Julie said...

"I think that for men there are both hormonal (though hopefully less severe) and emotional issues."

The physical manifestation of which triggers the flight or duck instinct. :^)

4/22/2012 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Hi Rick!
How's it goin'? Batten down the hatches, you got a late noreaster to deal with, it looks like.

4/22/2012 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Ben!
I'm doin ok. (Ok is the new great!)
Bad weather coming indeed. It's been awful dry though..

4/22/2012 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

There are a multitude of theories, but my guess is that the hormonal changes destabilize the personality and make it vulnerable to cracking along various developmental fault lines. For example, there could be envy of the privileged infant, fears of displacement on the part of the father, retroflected rage turned inward, evocations of one's own infantile abuse, or separation anxiety, or abandonment depression -- the whole spectrum of unresolved attachment issues.

Think of ancient times, when you didn't want the baby, you just chucked it over a cliff, or exposed it (ever see the film 300?). No doubt for some people there is unconscious resentment that they can't still do that.

In my case, I recall getting somewhat depressed after Leslie became pregnant, for a host of reasons. At that point, life became much less theoretical and much more serious, to put it mildly. It's not easy having your heart walking around unprotected in the world.

4/22/2012 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

@ Bob 09:25

"I think it's why men generally have a stronger drive to create, i.e., to bring an unborn into the world."

Several years ago, I remember a homily by a Catholic Priest that talked about 'Spiritual' children (works of art, Philosophy, good deeds) and it really helped me understand the drive of those who do take the vow of celibacy. Powerful homily.

As a Man, life-time Bachelor, (voluntary) and childless, I can say I have never envied the pregnant woman, though I must say I have had the desire of the Knowledge that a child growing with the woman I love would be from the sharing we both experienced and that the nine months would be as pleasing for him (conceptually) as it is for her (physically and conceptually). Many different kinds of pleasure out there - besides the physical ones.

This womb-envy that some men exercise strikes me as perverse and spiritually truncated.

4/22/2012 09:42:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Glad to hear. I concur, ha ha.
O(k)O(n) :^)

4/22/2012 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Regarding the depression, I remembering it revolving around the idea that I now had to become someone's ideal, and whether or not I could live up to that responsibility without hypocrisy. In a way, it exposed every little corner of self-doubt.

4/22/2012 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Interestingly, I remember hoping for a girl, because I thought it would place less pressure on me to have to Man Up, i.e., to truly be the man I wanted him to be. But now I don't even know what I was thinking, because I love having a boy.

4/22/2012 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

It's not easy having your heart walking around unprotected in the world.

No, it sure isn't. Yesterday mine finally got up the courage to climb a ladder at the playground, with minimal assistance. So on the one hand, I'm very proud, but on the other I'm terrified he's going to try it on his own and crack his head open - but of course, you have to let them try, anyway.

Re. having a girl, you'd still have to man up, just in a different way. Plus there's the old saying, "with a boy, you only worry about one penis; with a girl, you worry about all of them..."

4/22/2012 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Sons & daughters.

4/22/2012 09:54:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"In a way, it exposed every little corner of self-doubt."

Aye. It sure was difficult for me to at least appear like I wasn't full of self-doubt.

In my case I found it's not a good idea to share that to my lovely wife.
At least not entirely. Besides, it seems like insecurity or doubt quickly becomes bigger than Godzilla in my wide's view.
Or maybe I'm just bad at conveying it honestly.

Most guys who have had children understand without taking it personally or outta coontext.

4/22/2012 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Wife's view. NOT wide. Egads.

4/22/2012 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

"Wife's view. NOT wide. Egads."

LOL Saying 'Wife' and 'Wide' in the same sentence can land you in the doghouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTg6YB2PRA

4/22/2012 10:03:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Yes. I consider it a "good death" if there is such a thing. I just didn't think of it at the time. But a death none the less, and something must be done about it. Or about the old boy or old girl. Good as the new birth is.

And good news about my friend. We are not in the clear yet. His baby boy has only three chambers in his heart. So, prayers if ya got 'em, please.

4/22/2012 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Re. Sons & Daughters, :D


Rick - prayers going out for the little one. I hope everything works out alright for him, and his parents.

4/22/2012 10:22:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Will definitely pray for the little guy.

4/22/2012 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

Thank you. He has to have heart surgery, poor little soul, this week. He is their first child.

4/22/2012 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger Magister said...

what's so wrong with being barefoot and pregnant, anyway?

Not a wage slave paying into the Great Welfare State.

Can't have that.

4/23/2012 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

William has been cleaning the Website of his Trolling. Anybody notice that?

4/23/2012 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

(apparently he hasn't heard about this cool new tool called "Google")

4/23/2012 01:49:00 PM  
Blogger Cond0010 said...

Heh. Thats right! I forgot about that...

Thanks Van. :)

4/23/2012 01:59:00 PM  

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