Saturday, June 05, 2010

The Three Stages of Left Wing Spiritual Devolution

This is a continuation of Thursday's inflammatory slander on the left. We'll get back to prudence on Monday.

Jonah Goldberg has an insightful article (National Review, 4.07.08) on the politics of left wing gnosticism as it pertains to the Obama campaign, a campaign that goes to the very core of the left's spiritual pathology. The phenomenon demonstrates what happens when one abandons revealed and divinely authorized channels of religiosity for manmade ones, in a process which necessarily elevates man to god and politics to his religion. In so doing, it collapses the critical distinctions between time and eternity, natural and transnatural, freedom and constraint, and all of the other essential complementarities within which man lives -- and without which he isn't a man at all (i.e., as he was intended to be, in conformity with his spiritual archetype).

People without spiritual gnosis -- e.g., atheists, Darwinians, materialists, et al -- are necessarily exterior to the domain it discloses (for gnosis reveals the cosmic interior, precisely), and yet, proclaim this infirmity to be a kind of superiority, or ultimate health (in other words, they pretend they are more in conformity with reality than you are, even though their metaphysic can never explain how a monkey could ever know "reality").

But clearly, a person who is not seduced by the group fantasies of left wing gnosticism is in a superior position to judge them, since he remains within the realm of objective spiritual reality, whereas the radical secularist is confined to the narrow subjective fantasy of materialism (but only consciously, as we shall see, for the unconscious is always "spiritual").

In this regard, it would be interesting to know how many of Obama's supporters, like Obama himself, belong to heretical gnostic Christian churches that preach a spiritually inverted "liberation theology," as this would reinforce my view that real religion is the best defense against false ones.

At any rate, we shouldn't be surprised that the spiritual path of the left mirrors the universal stages of purification, illumination and union, only in reverse. First comes union with the new messiah.

For example, Goldberg notes that "Obama recruiters are encouraged to proselytize not by talking about 'issues' but by testifying about how they 'came to' the candidate..." In short, there must be a conversion process, a "metanoia," in which the scales suddenly fall from the little bratechumenate's eyes, i.e., the thighs tingle, he "sees" the truth, and he submits to the charismatic cult leader. (As we speak, many of these young adolts are going through a crisis of faith. This is normal for any spiritual practice, i.e., the "dark night of the troll.")

Goldberg writes that "Obama’s apostles include his wife, Michelle, who insists she is 'married to the only person in this race who has a chance at healing this nation.'" In this regard, she has testified that “We need a leader who’s going to touch our souls because, you see, our souls are broken.... The change Barack is talking about is hard, so don’t get too excited, because Barack is going to demand that you, too, be different.”

Thus, after one merges with Obama and is illuminated by the murky Truth for which he stands, ones commences with the hard work of purification, as we struggle to make ourselves worthy of the grace we have received. In other words, ask not what Obama can do for you. Ask what you can do for Obama.

Goldberg cites numerous examples to show how much of the messianic language that swirls around Obama "is more New Age than New Testament." He quotes Gary Hart, for example, who says that the Anointed One "is not operating on the same plane as ordinary politicians,” but is an "agent of transformation in an age of revolution,” whatever that means.

Likewise, Deepak Chopra -- who gives snake oil salesmen a bad name -- claims that Obama represents “a quantum leap in American consciousness,” while another pneumapath and career guru, Eve Konstantine, says that he “is our collective representation of our purest hopes, our highest visions and our deepest knowings.... He’s our product out of the all-knowing quantum field of intelligence.” (Product of the all-knowing quantum field of intelligence? Why all the pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo? Why not just say that he is the only-begotten Son of God?)

And Oprah Winfrey suggests that Obama doesn't only "speak" truth but is the Truth who will help us “evolve to a higher plane.” Here again, why not just say that the early Christians got it all wrong, and that the real Word is finally dwelling among us?

Of course, in collectivist left wing gnosticism, God does not and cannot work through the individual. Nor does he work through the interior collective, or any kind of "higher we." Rather, he works through the instrument of that glorified labor camp known as The State, which will take control over the spontaneous order of our nation and attenuate the true interior bonds -- the higher we -- of civil society. For progressives, liberty is not the solution, it's the problem, because it tends to lead to the exercise of free will, which in turn emphasizes the sanctity of the individual. The only cure for the interior I and We is the exterior Him and his all powerful Them, the state.

The heart of Goldberg's piece involves a discussion of Voegelin's point that progressivism is a heretical political religion and therefore a form of gnosticism. This religion has "two core assumptions. First, it condemns the existing world as broken and alienating, plagued by evil forces preventing a complete and happy restoration of man’s spiritual and material life." (Which is why they are so desperate to "keep Bush alive" as the manichean explanation for why sugar candy mountain hasn't yet arrived.)

So the progressive, in his own garbled way, indeed recognizes that man is "fallen." However, "the gnostic promise, to borrow a phrase from John Edwards, is that 'it doesn’t have to be this way.'" Thus, the second assumption: as Russell Kirk observed, these religions promise "a mode of deliverance or salvation from the prison of the world for man through a secret gnosis."

By manipulating people with the right policies, we can create a "'kingdom of heaven on earth' -- not coincidentally, a phrase invoked by Bolsheviks, progressives, fascists, and every other variety of utopian collectivist. This effort to lasso the hereafter and pull it down to the here-and-now was dubbed by Voegelin 'immanentizing the eschaton'" (Goldberg).

Different demoninotions of leftism will have different secret formulas and incantations to create their utopia. For Marxists, "the secret lay in the intricacies of scientific socialism.' With just the right manipulation of material or historical forces we could -- ta-da! -- create a land where each lives according to his need....

"For the progressives, the trick was giving ourselves over to the social planners and gnostic 'ideologists of Christ'.... today, the secret is Barack Obama." Goldberg cites a creepy video "in which children testify about the dire state of the world." It then "cuts to a baby opening a copy of The Audacity of Hope, complete with a whispery spirit voice promising a 'secret.' The video concludes with one child after another announcing that the secret is -- Barack Obama."

As I mentioned above, the wave of Obama support rides on a deep structure of religious energy that is unrecognized by those most susceptible to it. In fact, as Goldberg says -- and as I have noted in the past -- "the craving to create a heaven on earth is the inevitable consequence of a godless society." Or, to paraphrase Pope Benedict, "the loss of transcendence evokes the flight to utopia."

The very definition of "totalitarianism" is the "existential rule of Gnostic activists": "Indeed, the story of totalitarianism is the story of men trying to replace the allegedly discredited old God with one of their own creation." So de-divinization always preceeds the "redivinization" of explicit left wing soulwashing. This is certainly how it worked for me in college. First you discredit religion, and then replace it with with a pseudo-religion that occupies the vacant spiritual territory. It took me years to undo this ironically named "higher education," which specifically forecloses the higher.

From this follows the worship of man -- not even Man as Such, the image and likeness of the Creator -- but usually a man. "Or, in Voegelin’s words, they 'build the corpus mysticum of the collectivity and bind the members to form the oneness of the body.” The result is that the productive individuals are forced to wait upon the narcissism and self-victimization of the progressive mob.


Blogger Tigtog said...

To Gagdad re Todays Post

Truly a bit of inspired writing. I personally like the part where you describe the discrediting of religion in order to prepare the collective to accept the new messiah. Good on you.

The short answer is leftists are creepy.

6/05/2010 08:40:00 AM  
Blogger Jack said...

You to my shame I didn't really get what was being said about Obama on this blog during the campaign. I get it now...and "it" just keeps playing out in event after event.

For example, if we don't stand up for Israel who will? And if they feel like they are in this alone...let's just say I can't see good things happening. It's not like Israel is going to back down or roll over.

I can't imagine a worse time for someone like Obama to be President--not that any time would be good.

What if the sh*t really goes he going to have the balls to do what it takes? Or rather, what *will* take for him to grow a pair? North Korea sinks a South Korean ship? Iran with Nuclear weapons vowing to wipe Israel off the face of the map? What!?!

6/05/2010 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

It's very simple: if America doesn't stand up to evil, evil will triumph.

6/05/2010 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

In order to continue standing up to evil America will have to forswear electing leaders who are openly sympathetic to it. The only countries which stood with Israel unconditionally in this latest assault on her right to not be subject to another Holocaust were Canada and Australia. The US under Obama is moving sharply toward the "let's just get rid of them once and for all" crowd.

6/05/2010 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

To wit, Obama has called for an investigation of Israel's (self-defensive) actions re the flotilla of demons, er, peace activists. However he has NOT called for any investigation of Turkey, the IHH, or the assorted Western useful idiots who tagged along. Turning on friends and aiding and abetting civilization's enemies like this are unprecedented for America.

I am assuming that the next few years will see a massive move back to the righteous America of the past two centuries. Nonetheless I remain very uneasy over the fact that we have allowed the Left to essentially capture virtually every cultural institution which matters (only the advent of the Internet saved us).

6/05/2010 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Speaking of the demonic, there was an anon here the other day who sounded fairly reasonable for about 30 seconds until BAM there it was: Israel and "Palestine" are equally bad actors, etc.

It served to remind me that leftists are of course often on the right side of many issues, however it is purely by accident and generally only insofar as they unconsciously act in accordance the residual Judeo-Christian ethical structure embedded in the West. Since they are not oriented toward -- or even aware of the existence of -- absolute Truth there is nothing keeping them "on the rails". Hence one regularly runs into people who seem quite rational (who for example might be concerned about preserving America's parks in a reasonable manner), but who five minutes later pull sheer depraved lunacy wholesale from their butt ("Israel is an apartheid state, and Arizona is heading in the same direction") and wave it around like nothing's amiss.

That is what drives me nuts about the left. They'd be easier to deal with if they were simply always obviously wrong about everything. As it stands they have no ability of separating those things they believe which are true (children should not have to live in poverty) from those which aren't (CEOs cause child poverty).

It's been many years now, but I vaguely recall living in that hellish condition (which doesn't seem hellish, except in hindsight).

6/05/2010 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

It would be impossible for Obama to have been a member of that anti-Semitic church for all those years, and not be an anti-Semite.

6/05/2010 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...


The leftist lives in an ideology that he superimposes on reality, so occasionally the two line up. As such, it is possible to say something that's true, but not because it's true, which makes all the difference.

For example, it is true that the left stood up for racial equality back in the 1960s, but obviously not because they believed in racial equality, since they are the only organized group that specifically lobbies for racial discrimination. So in both cases, the underlying motive is power. There's no intellectual consistency at all.

6/05/2010 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Jack said...

"It's very simple: if America doesn't stand up to evil, evil will triumph."

I couldn't agree more. And I have faith, that ultimately enough Americans know Evil when they see it. With Obama the pomo relativists who think "evil" is a social construct to propagate white male "hegemony" have gotten their day. But by their fruits you shall know them!

Not that most postmodern liberal types will ever come around, and as a whining minority they can have at it. Personally I won't be a part of it anymore. And I will do what I can to plant seeds in thoughtful, non-wacko, people I meet.

My best friend is a moderately lefty fellow, but is Jewish and tends to be (cautiously) pro-Isreal. We had a talk about the flotilla incident and was able to score some points he probably wouldn't have been able to process in some other context.

My ninja Raccoon strategy scored a mild success!!

6/05/2010 10:55:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

It would be impossible for Obama to have been a member of that anti-Semitic church for all those years, and not be an anti-Semite.

Funny how such a rabid anti-semite managed to get over 75% of the Jewish vote. I guess Jews are just too stupid to know their own interests.

6/05/2010 12:42:00 PM  
Anonymous George Soros said...

That's right. Chomsky, Zinn, Michael Lerner, Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky.... All the best Jews are men of the left.

6/05/2010 12:52:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

Hey guys, I can see November from my front porch. There is hope. The ONE has pretty much screwed the pooch and his party. Even the press is starting to notice (which is hard to do from your knees). The most recent act of Bamster desperation was reporting the same 400K census workers as being hired in May and April. Net result is bammy's economic genius is creating around 20K per month. That is quite a haul given its summer seasonal hiring he is counting. I guess we can honestly say Obama Lied and the Economy Died. Shoosh, we just saw Pelosi string a line of shit in an ecstatic manner reminiscent of religious talk. The wheels are coming off, its just a matter of time.

Interesting WV: bubbege

6/05/2010 01:07:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...


How many of those voters were practicing Jews? It is certainly true that a majority of Jews who repudiate (or ignore) their faith seem to migrate to the Left. However this only reinforces our key point: as people move away from God (Truth, Beauty, Good) they move toward not-God (Chaos [Marx], the Profane [Maher et al] and Lies [Chomsky, Zinn et al]). The same thing applies to Christians and no doubt other religions (who knows with Islam).

Blacks also vote overwhelmingly for the party which has for decades advanced policies which can be shown empirically to do great harm to them. Only 15% of Americans get enough exercise. People very often act against their best interests. This in no way proves that avoiding exercise, promoting single-mother welfare families, or inciting violence against the Jewish homeland are therefore proper and good.

6/05/2010 01:24:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

The fact that Obama's chief of staff is not only Jewish, but served with the Israeli Defense Forces, might also give one pause. Unless, of course, you are committed to a black-and-white cartoon view of the universe.

One thing I learned from that that I hadn't known: Emanuel's father was a member of the Irgun, the Zionist paramilitary group responsible for the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel that I mentioned earlier. Small world!

6/05/2010 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Oh - Anon - You have got to be kidding me. Rahm was a member of the Chicago gay bath house. He never professed to being Jewish.

6/05/2010 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...


You seem to have difficulty with certain fairly basic concepts.

Look at it this way. Both of these statements are true:

1. America is the greatest, most noble, generous, and freest society yet achieved by mankind.

2. America is riven with millions of the most vile, hate-filled, depraved and dishonest people on the planet.

Now, the "millions" may only be 1 or 2 million people who are on the level of the coke-snorting, whore-abusing, foul-mouthed ignorant loud-mouth Bill Maher, but they're out there and they exist despite the truth of statement #1.

(Leftist brains seem unable to grasp the concept of a grouping of extremely heterogeneous people -- they need the Mao suits!)

Just because some members of a group (how perfectly leftist of you to make this all about the group) are bad people does not diminish the truth of statements like #1. In general US Marines are fine people, but there are obviously some who are bad if not evil. It's called being human.

6/05/2010 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

That guy (Emanuel) has "thug" written all over him.

Another wonderful post that leaves me wordless at the end, because you already said it all so well.

6/05/2010 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

You seem to have difficulty with certain fairly basic concepts.

Bob said that Obama was an anti-semite. I pointed out that he got 75% of the Jewish vote, and you replied with something implying that those people must not be really Jewish -- which is irrelevant nonsense, if you know the first thing about Jewishness or the first thing about anti-semitism.

Just because some members of a group (how perfectly leftist of you to make this all about the group) are bad people does not diminish the truth of statements like #1

What in the world are you talking about? "Good people" and "bad people" is your kind of talk, not mine. "Making it about the group" is hard to avoid when the topic is a group prejudice like anti-semitism. And "how perfectly leftist of you to make this all about the group" is quite a masterpiece of compressed self-undermining, I ought to congratulate you.

As best as I can tell, you are saying that the 75% of Jews who voted for Obama are not really Jews and are bad people -- and you accuse Obama of antisemitism? If I said that 75% of Christians are bad people, what would that make me?

6/05/2010 02:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...


6/05/2010 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...


I didn't say the 75% of Jews who voted for Obama are "bad people". I said that people people often act in their own worst interests and Jews are hardly exempt, nor are Christians or anyone else.

I also asked how many of that 75% are practicing (i.e., religious) Jews. Having grown up around many Orthodox Jews I am quite confident that a lot fewer than 75% of them would vote for Obama.

"Good people" and "bad people" is your kind of talk, not mine.

No doubt. The Hamas mass-murderer and the Israeli schoolgirl are neither good nor bad -- they just have different "versions of the truth" when it comes to him shooting her in cold blood. Right?

Anyhow I really don't want to get dragged down into this any more. I spent years climbing out of the slime pit of arguing with people like you.

6/05/2010 03:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Anon says - "You seem to have difficulty with certain fairly basic concepts."

Let's see.

Bob said that Obama was an anti-semite. I pointed out that he got 75% of the Jewish vote, and you replied with something implying that those people must not be really Jewish. -- which is irrelevant nonsense, if you know the first thing about Jewishness or the first thing about anti-semitism.

Prove to me that Obama got 75% of the Jewish vote. Because I think you are pulling that numbner out of your ass.

You're a liar.

6/05/2010 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Dianne -- there's this thing called Google, maybe you should learn to use it.

A preliminary exit poll found Obama receiving about 78 percent of the Jewish vote to just 22 percent for Republican John McCain.

And maybe you'd consider being a bit less quick to call someone a liar, or an antisemite for that matter. Isn't there something in the Bible about bearing false witness?

6/05/2010 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

How do they know? Anyone can claim a poll says anything. Did they ask 100% of the Jewish people? I think not.

You should be the one more worried about bearing false witness.

6/05/2010 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Exit polling also showed that GWB was going to lose the second term.

6/05/2010 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

NB -- You're giving up, that's probably wise. You don't seem to be able to think very clearly, and I have no wish to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

But you may consider that it has been known to happen that Israeli soldiers murder Palestinian children. How does your good/bad model work there?

I suppose you think there is a hard and fast line between "mass murderers" and "soldiers". I submit to you that it doesn't matter too much to the dead children whether the person who killed them was part of an officially recognized army or a stateless paramilitary group.

I see someone has assembled a convenient, if tragic, wikipedia page on just this topic.

6/05/2010 05:41:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Oh yeah - I remember that kid. He was set up by his family to be taken out by a palestinian sniper as a photo op to make the Isralei soldiers looks bad. I wonder how much money they got for that.

Too bad clueless people fall for it.

6/05/2010 05:55:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Meanwhile, lets look at what muslims are doing in other places. Just to give it a little perspective.

6/05/2010 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I'm pretty sure Muhammed said it was acceptable for jihadis to hide behind children. In his omniscience, he anticipated the useful idiots of the future who would blame the victims and not the Muslim aggressors.

6/05/2010 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Can't blame Israel for the Muslim baby booming.

6/05/2010 06:40:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Actually, Muslims call children "starter martyrs."

6/05/2010 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

You're giving up, that's probably wise.

Yes I do give up. I yield to your superior intellect and will switch forthwith from reading this blog to reading yours instead. You've proven that you're much better informed and wiser than anyone here.

So there is no reason for you to come back here.

Except to leave the url for your blog so that we may become enlightened. Don't worry! We'll all be right over to your place once you leave here.

6/05/2010 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

In case anyone needs a palette cleanser after the thought of babies booming, here are some nice pictures of how it's supposed to work ;)

6/05/2010 07:31:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

So there is no reason for you to come back here.

On the contrary, I like to take my superior intellect where it is most needed. I firmly believe even the most recalcitrant minds are capable of learning. But that just may be my liberal do-goodism.

6/05/2010 07:34:00 PM  
Blogger debass said...

" I firmly believe even the most recalcitrant minds are capable of learning".
If this is true, you are either lying or delusional for you have demonstrated repeatedly that you are incapable of learning.

6/05/2010 08:13:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...


Yes I suppose you're right. OK then, since you're the new thought leader around here I have a request:

Please contrast the main points of Schuon's philosophy with those of Eckhardt and then explain why both are inferior to your own Weltanschauung.

While you're doing that, I'll engage my terrier in a discussion on lambda calculus, which will prove equally fruitful.

The pathetic thing about these mooks is that they don't know what they don't know. Note that "anon" *always* attacks from the vantage point of some vapid political angle and *never* demonstrates that he grasps -- even in the slightest -- the core concepts elucidated in this blog. It's called "One Cosmos", anon, not "Political Cage Match". If you were able to articulate ANYTHING important that is discussed here and provide credible alternative explanations or views then your presence here would have some value, even if you were wrong. However you have never, ever -- not once -- demonstrated that you have the slightest clue what OC is actually about. You nitpick little details like what percentage of Jewish voters chose Obama and then worry this irrelevant (to One Cosmos) detail to death, apparently deriving satisfaction from your command of the trivial.

Honestly I do not mind the presence of countering views here. Bob isn't God. However your views (unless you can prove me wrong by pointing to one of your prior posts) amount to nothing but an articulate unburdening of your squalid leftist mind. You never, ever deal with the core ideas here, and hence your posts are simply endless irritating pebbles thrown against the side of a mountain.

Yes! You have the ability to irritate and fluster people here. So does a mosquito. Now, shoo fly!

6/06/2010 05:12:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

With that bit of nastiness out of the way, I just want to say:

Julie: those pictures are so beautiful! You're the quintessential beaming new Mom, and your DH looks about like I did -- overjoyed and a tad overwhelmed :-)

Even though I only know you through One Cosmos, I'm very happy for you and your family.

Now just start getting used to telling yourself: "heck, a full night's sleep is overrated anyhow".

6/06/2010 05:19:00 AM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

Anon, being permanently pinned to the horizontal is no way to go through life. Dean Wermer paraphrase. Quite your mind, check your ego and surprises will present themselves. You have to open yourself to the complete sphere of being to really live. Just saying.

6/06/2010 06:52:00 AM  
Blogger greyniffler said...

A late comment:

1. America is the greatest, most noble, generous, and freest society yet achieved by mankind.

2. America is riven with millions of the most vile, hate-filled, depraved and dishonest people on the planet.

3. In America we notice the people in group 2 because they stand out from the rest of us as a loud minority.

6/06/2010 07:40:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I don't think anyone should be troubled by anon's contributions. Speaking only for myself, he helps me peer into the malignant soul of the left without having to personally seek out and venture down into subterranean principalities of the internet.

Think of him as a glass bottom boat in a sewer, allowing us to dispassionately observe what's floating around down there without having to actually wade in it.

Not to mention that he combines the intellectual depth and acuity of Sean Penn with the wit and charm of Helen Thomas. What more could you ask of a troll? As he said, he's here to teach. Believe him.

6/06/2010 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Heh. Glass-bottom Troll.

6/06/2010 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In more practical terms, you might use his comments as a way to observe the manner in which not only thoughts come to us from the outside, but how we can come into contact with a plane of being, and then confuse it with the thought.

I think any perceptive Coon should be able to perceive anon's plane of being before the content (which in his case is clearly secondary; again, any discriminating Coon should be able to discern how he deploys language as a vehicle to transmit primitive emotions and spiritual states that try to provoke action in you, not contemplation).

For those of you who have The Adventure of Consciousness, see pp. 46-51, where he talks about how the seeker gradually "receives people's thoughts, wishes and desires in their true form and in all their starkness, exactly as they are -- assaults." Furthermore, how it is not just "bad thoughts" or "ill will" that "share a virulent character," but how "nothing is more aggressive than good intentions, high sentiments, altruism -- either way, it is the ego fostering itself through sweetness or violence."

For example, if one wishes to understand the violence beneath the liberal's "sweetness," one has only to reject their patronizing help -- thus the vicious attacks on conservative blacks, women, or homosexuals.

The bottom line is that you must observe and master the subjective states others evoke in you, or you will be pulled out of your center and become a slave to those states. Seriously, it's how the adversary operates.

6/06/2010 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger black hole said...

Once again anon has whipped you guys.

Rethink your basic ideology--

You're being led by a brilliant but flawed man.

He's a genius but he's a hater.

A dangerous combination.

Anon knows it, I know it; so get wise bubble eyes.

6/06/2010 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

If Blackie & anon arent the same, they oughta meet & have kids!

6/06/2010 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

That's a good thought. Of course one feels sorry for the luckless child, but marriage and children are indeed among the most important forces that naturally pull people toward conservatism.

6/06/2010 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

nb: the contents of OneCosmos seems to be about half spiritual nattering, and half political ranting. Just because I don't respond to the spiritual material doesn't mean I don't grasp it.

These two parts are so deeply intertwined as to be inseparable -- I guess that is supposed to be a feature. But for me, the lies displayed on the political side invalidates whatever value the spiritual material might have. That's a shame, I suppose, but there are plenty of other spiritual teachers out there who aren't consumed by hatred. I learned about Schuon here, for example, but his reputation is now tainted by your noxiousness. If following his teaching produces the likes of you, then it's not a valid spiritual guide for me.

Furthermore: as long as you spew slander and vitriol about political matters, you can't complain when people come and correct them. You can't say, "oh, we're all about the cosmic vertical here, why do you bother us with your trivial poltical facts? When we accuse someone of antisemitism, it's in the service of a higher plane of being, and facts have nothing to do with it!" Well, you can, I suppose, since that's what you're doing. But you can't without looking ridiculous.

Bob can't seem to go for a week without making snide remarks about trivial pop-culture political figures like Keith Olbermann or Sean Penn. If you want to play a low game, you can't complain when the game is joined.

6/06/2010 10:15:00 AM  
Blogger walt said...

Nice little saying of John Wooden's -- both a gentleman and a Superior Man, IMO -, who passed away this weekend:

Talent is God-given; be grateful.
Skill is man-given; be humble.
Conceit is self-given; be careful.

wv sez: idiess to live by!

6/06/2010 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger Mizz E said...

"The result is that the productive individuals are forced to wait upon the narcissism and self-victimization of the progressive mob."

Below, a graphic illustration from "Reality for Radicals", published this morning at The Brussels Journal. Note the "sweetness" Bob touched on in an above comment.

While it’s the giant vampire squid that’s the trapped creatures’ most damaging foe, and Leviathan the most dangerous, it’s the stinging jellyfish that are the most effective disablers. They do so by emitting sweet gurgling subsonic sounds that seem to enchant and pacify the large but passive manatees on the coral floor. The captives are so enthralled by the peace and social justice cooing that they are paying no attention to their growing wounds from the coral below and the stings from above. Moreover, they seem confused and incoherent relative to the alarming number of barnacles growing on their flukes and slowly disabling them, aided by the depleting sucking of nutrients by the endoparasites within.

6/06/2010 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I don't see how counting up Jewish Obama-lovers amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to the anti-semitism of his pastor and mentor in the "faith" (if you can call it that). Perhaps anon could explain how capturing the votes of the foolish makes his "theology" any less anti-semitic.

Just like a lefty to try to distract from the real issue with numbers from "experts." Are you going to defend the theology? Let's here it.

And who lives in a black & white cartoon world, again?

6/06/2010 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Um, that would be "hear." I was in a hurry to see Julie's baby pictures. :D

6/06/2010 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Mizz E:

Precisely -- this is why the left has been so obsessed with socialized medicine in their "long march through the institutions," as it is the quintessential way to conceal the iron fist of the State beneath the seductive velvet glove of "free stuff."

6/06/2010 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Oh, Julie, he is perfect and beautiful! I can just feel the joy emanating off you guys in those pictures. And yes, they smell soooo good. :) What a precious little face.

6/06/2010 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"But for me, the lies displayed on the political side invalidates whatever value the spiritual material might have."

Yet you just keep coming back for more! LOL!

Actually, I'm still laughing at the thought of being "led" by Bob. :D

Just consider us a congress of like minds, and then wonder again why you bother wading around in content you just can't relate to.

6/06/2010 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Daddy/baby pictures never fail to melt my heart, by the way. :)

6/06/2010 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Thanks, Susannah & NB. I think I'll keep him ;)

Liam's daddy is doing fantastically, too. It's only been a couple of days, but he's already a great father. Life is good.


Re. the troll,

"Yet you just keep coming back for more! LOL!"

I'll second that LOL.

Now to go boost my oxytocin levels...

6/06/2010 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger הגיין said...

Gagdad Bob,

Is this the text of the Goldberg article you mention?

6/06/2010 11:20:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Just because I don't respond to the spiritual material doesn't mean I don't grasp it.

Yes it does.

6/06/2010 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

It is true that just because 78% of Jews voted for Obama, and two of closest advisors (Emanuel and David Axelrod) are Jewish, that does not automatically mean that Obama is not an anti-semite. After all, Nixon was rabidly anti-semitic, and he had a number of Jewish advisors and supporters, including Kissinger.

The above facts are just evidence against the proposition, which need to be balanced against any evidence for. So far the evidence for is just that he had a pastor who made some mildly anti-semitic remarks (I don't wish to excuse anything Wright said, but it was far milder than Nixon's anti-semitism -- eg, no slurs on Jews as a group as far as I know). That's pretty weak evidence for painting Obama with the very serious charge of anti-semitism.

6/06/2010 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger black hole said...

For any of you that still need to vote: don't go supporting any oil-drilling politicians.

Keep the coast clean.


6/06/2010 11:42:00 AM  
Blogger black hole said...

Obama as a whole is free of visible vices.

He is not a hater.

6/06/2010 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Lynn said...

Congratulations to you, your husband, the grandpas and grandmas, and all others who love you, Julie! What a beautiful baby [raccoon] :)!

6/06/2010 11:50:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe that you are engaging in what they call tu quoque. What does Nixon have to do with this?

I'm not talking about a few mildly anti-semitic remarks. I'm talking about an inherently racist "theology" (what it has to do with knowledge of God, I'm not sure, hence the scare quotes).

Bob is absolutely one sits under that garbage for two decades without agreeing with it--giving mental assent. Who votes for him or sits on his cabinet says less about him than his personal associations, particularly his stamp of approval on a virulent form of liberation "theology" (heresy is more like it).

Keep on ignoring the obvious and telling yourselves he's "without defect," though.

6/06/2010 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Lynn said...

black hole said: "[...snip...]"

Who cares. Frankly I'm sick of black holes.

6/06/2010 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

I think while there is obvious anti-semitism on the left there is another element which I think might better apply to Obama. Given the first tenet of pomo multiculturalism is "no society can be judged as superior or inferior" therefor if any particular society is violent, backwards, cruel then it MUST be for an external reason.

And if that dysfunctional society has a neighboring functional one that likely has a modern military...BINGO! Therefore it *must* be due to the oppression of the "stronger" over the "weaker"--and if the weaker was just left alone they'd somehow "naturally" fall into a harmonious non-exploitative, peaceful society that the stronger is preventing by its cruelty and oppression.

On the left it is verboten to say "well maybe the weaker society is just f*'ed up! Maybe it's running on primitive and dysfunctional assumptions. Maybe if it didn't encourage it's young to strap on a bomb and a sack of rusty nails and blow themselves up on a bus, for example life could improve. And maybe if they spent some time trying to learn how to be productive and civilized and stop blaming others *maybe* their life would improve!"

But this is instantly dismissed as "colonial discourse" or some such nonsense. Listen to NPR and the like and you can see that the possibility can't even arise to the average lefty. My guess is that Obama suffers from this narrative/disease--rather than outright anti-semitism-- as he was educated at the height of pc nonsense at "elite" universities.

Trying to get someone in the thrall of this over-arching and distorted narrative is often an exercise in futility. Funny that another tenet of postmodernism is to quote Lyotard an "incredulity towards meta-narratives" that is, except of course one's own. They learn some twisted form of skepticism from the likes of Chomsky and Zinn--but never apply that skepticism to the likes of Chomsky and Zinn.

My two cents...

6/06/2010 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Doctor Bob once wrote a good post about this:

It doesn't touch on the anti-semitism as much as it shows the anti-Christian root and fruit of it, but you can certainly find plenty of it through your own study into the matter.

6/06/2010 12:16:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"oxytocin levels" :D

Now you'll just have to hone those nak skills.

6/06/2010 12:24:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...


How about contributing to the profits Big Bad Tobacco? LOL!

6/06/2010 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Lynn said...

G-Bob wrote: ".. it is not just "bad thoughts" or "ill will" that "share a virulent character," but how 'nothing is more aggressive than good intentions, high sentiments, altruism -- either way, it is the ego fostering itself through sweetness or violence.'"

C. S. Lewis said it this way:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under live robber barons than under omnipotent moral busibodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good, will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." (paraphrased)

And remember who the barbarians are. The barbarians come, Lewis told us, not over the parapet, not carrying their clubs and wielding their weapons, but they come with polished fingernails and blue pin-striped suits, gathering in well-lighted conference rooms. They are the good people who say that they know how to make life better for all of us.

6/06/2010 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

That's pretty weak evidence for painting Obama with the very serious charge of anti-semitism.

Nobody is singling Obama out as an anti-Semite, rabid or otherwise.

Leftism or progressivism or whatever you want to call the morally depraved, intellectually bankrupt creed which is at root deeply anti-Semitic as the 20th century amply demonstrated. Both flavors of 20th century European Socialism -- Bolshevik and Nazi -- made overt attempts to exterminate the Jews.

Now, you can babble all day long anon and black hole (same person, no doubt) but that does not change the fact that your basic position is one of incoherence and depravity once the sophistry is stripped away. You seem to forget that many of here -- Bob included -- were ourselves "progressives" at one point in our lives, and that we overcame that and look back with disgust on what we were then. So don't be surprised if we find the likes of you somewhat repellent today.

Finally, nothing either of you has ever said here has made me and I suspect any other regular here change our thinking one iota. Many, many people have in fact influenced my thinking over the years besides Bob, but you are making no impact here, because you're simply blind to the spiritual dimension we care about no matter how much you protest otherwise. I too thought I "got" spirituality when I was like you. I was then like you are now: deluded.

6/06/2010 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Susannah: my mention of Nixon was not a tu quoque, it's just an example for comparision, as I made very clear.

I don't really know enough about Wright's theology to judge it (here's an article on black liberation theology). Do you? Or are you judging it based on a few out-of-context video clips?

In any case, one can't draw any strong conclusions about Obama's beliefs from the beliefs of his pastor. If Wright had spent every Sunday denouncing Jews from the pulpit, that would be a different matter, but there's no indication of anything like that. That sort of thing is more often found on the right.

6/06/2010 01:19:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Bob, right here: It would be impossible for Obama to have been a member of that anti-Semitic church for all those years, and not be an anti-Semite.

NB, also right here: Nobody is singling Obama out as an anti-Semite, rabid or otherwise.

Uh-huh. And you are calling me deluded? And incoherent?

You seem to forget that many of here -- Bob included -- were ourselves "progressives" at one point in our lives, and that we overcame that and look back with disgust on what we were then.

So what? I look with disgust on what you are now. And while obviously I didn't know you back when you were progressives, I'm guessing you were pretty disgusting people back then as well. There are lots of people (David Horowitz comes to mind) who were scumbags on the left and are now scumbags on the right.

6/06/2010 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger Lynn said...

anon responded to what the two Church Fathers wrote below by writing this: "I learned about God from you two, but his reputation is now tainted by your noxiousness. If following his teaching produces the likes of you, then you're not valid spiritual guides for me."

Church Father Athanasius had written:"Arius himself has copied the weak and effeminate character of Sotades, writing the 'Thalia'. He has emulated the dancing of Herodias, dancing about and jesting in his slanders against the Savior. The result is that those who fall into heresy are perverted in mind, act foolishly, and exchange the name of the Lord of glory for 'the likeness of the image of mortal man'. Thus, instead of Christians they are called Arians and have this mark of impiety. How can non-Christians be Christians? Rather, they are Ario-maniacs! ..."

Church father, Tertullian responded: "I will also comment on that gnostic Marcion----the Euxine Sea, as it is called, is self-contradictory in its nature, and deceptive in its name. .... it [is] severed from our more civilised waters by a certain stigma which attaches to its barbarous character. The fiercest nations inhabit it, if indeed it can be called habitation, when life is passed in waggons. They have no fixed abode; their life has no germ of civilization; they indulge their libidinous desires without restraint, and for the most part naked.

Moreover, when they gratify secret lust, they hang up their quivers on their car-yokes, to warn off the curious and rash observer. Thus without a blush do they prostitute their weapons of war.

The dead bodies of their parents they cut up with their sheep, and devour at their feasts. .... Their women are not by their sex softened to modesty. They uncover the breast, from which they suspend their battle-axes, and prefer warfare to marriage. ...

Nothing, however, in Pontus is so barbarous and sad as the fact that Marcion was born there, fouler than any Scythian, more roving than the waggon-life of the Sarmatian, more inhuman than the Massagete, more audacious than an Amazon, darker than the cloud, (of Pontus) colder than its winter, more brittle than its ice, more deceitful than the Ister, more craggy than Caucasus.

Nay more, the true Prometheus, Almighty God, is mangled by Marcion's blasphemies. Marcion is more savage than even the beasts of that barbarous region.

For what beaver was ever a greater emasculator than he who has abolished the nuptial bond? What Pontic mouse ever had such gnawing powers as he who has gnawed the Gospels to pieces?

Verily, O Euxine, thou hast produced a monster more credible to philosophers than to Christians.

For the cynic Diogenes used to go about, lantern in hand, at mid-day to find a man; whereas Marcion has quenched the light of his faith, and so lost the God whom he had found.

Having taken bread and having distributed it to his disciples, he made it his own body by saying, 'This is my body'-that is, the 'figure of my body.' A figure, however there could not have been unless there was in truth a body.

Some empty thing, which is a phantasm, were not able to satisfy a figure. Or, if he pretended that bread were his body, because in truth he lacked a body, then he must have given bread for us. It would support the vanity of Marcion had bread been crucified.

But why call Christ's body 'bread', and not rather a pumpkin, which Marcion had in place of a brain?

6/06/2010 01:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

Father Coughlin, man of the left and liberal fascist par excellence.

6/06/2010 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

One of the rhetorical tricks of the left is to paint any opponent as "right wing," so that ideological opposites such as conservatives and fascists get lumped in together. They've been doing it for so long, I don't think they realize it anymore.

6/06/2010 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Well, if you believe Jonah Goldberg you'll believe anything.

One of the rhetorical tricks of the left is to paint any opponent as "right wing," so that ideological opposites such as conservatives and fascists get lumped in together.

Wait -- you just sad Coughlin was a "man of the left", now he's an opponent of the left? If he's on the left, why would the left be painting him as right wing? So confusing...

Incidentally, good attempt to steer the conversation away your slander, which you have neither supported with facts nor apologized for.

6/06/2010 02:00:00 PM  
Blogger Mizz E said...


Your Junebug is beyond adorable. I can really
relate to his thumb sucking. Shows a primal security. ;-)

6/06/2010 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To Blackhole re:

"Obama as a whole is free of visible vices.

He is not a hater"

How in the hell did you conclude this? You and I know nothing about this cypher by design. So don't go shooting your mouth off. Did you go to school with the clown? Its seems no one who attended Occidental, Columbia or Harvard when he is purported to be there can remember him. His academic records are sealed, so we have to trust the spin that says he is smart. Watching him speak off teleprompter despells that notion immediately. Regarding hate, how do you explain 20 years in the front pew of the racist Reverend Wright's church? Bill Ayers, the mad bomber and "just a guy in neighborhood" must bomb people for the right "non-hateful" reasons. His hand picked Chief of Staff and closest confidant is well known for the love he shares. Where on earth did you get the notion that bammy is without sin? ABC? Shoosh, you are really very funny. Too bad you believe nonsence, you happen write well,

6/06/2010 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...


If he's on the left, why would the left be painting him as right wing? So confusing...

What. Freaking. Planet?!?

are you from, bro?

The Left does basically *nothing but* attempt to change the rules on the fly. "Global Warming" proving to be an obvious scam? Change the wording to "climate change".

Hitler's National SOCIALIST German WORKER'S PARTY obviously a manifestation of the fascist Left? Fine, just spend 40 years re-defining history and defying common sense until you've convinced everyone that Hitler somehow had more in common with Ronald Reagan than with Bill Ayers.

I like anon when he goes so far off the rails it gets funny again.

6/06/2010 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

anon wrote:

Well, if you believe Jonah Goldberg you'll believe anything.

Here's something I've noticed over the past year: every single leftist "rebuttal" to Goldberg and his book consists of exactly what anon just offered: an ad hominem dismissal amounting to nothing.

The fact is that while Goldberg's book is hardly perfect it was fact-checked with a rigour that no Leftist would or could attempt. Therefore aside from a few errors, the vast majority of Goldberg's book stands essentially uncontested by any Leftist because it is pretty damned hard to refute documented, footnoted hard facts.

Where are your vaunted intellectual chops now, Skippy?

6/06/2010 03:14:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

Re Hitler:

If you read "Mein Kamf" you'll know the name of his party was chosen to sort of sound socialist in order to draw in the working man.

But Hitler was way to the right. He wanted a straight up dictatorship from day one. He despised communism.

6/06/2010 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To Black Hole Re:

"My assertion that Obama is not a hater is because I have not heard him issue any denunciations."

For all your intelligence, have you not noticed that Obama reads from a teleprompter? Always. Have you noticed he avoids live questions? Further, have you not been able to read between the lines regarding his pursuit of "transformation"? If he didn't hate his country why would he want to transform it? Just remember Michele's revealing quote, "this is the first time I've been proud to be an American". How you can avoid the obvious that Bamster is a hater of all things American? Shoosh. C'mon BH wake up and read the mail. Just ask yourself what does bammy love (other than himself)? Hell, I watched him throw his grandmother under the bus to protect Wright early in the campaign. This was the only human in his entire life that was consistently there for him and he threw her away like a snot rag to protect Wright and claim his blackness. Obama is one twisted little dude.

6/06/2010 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Right, black hole. And "Alles muss anders sein!" sounds SOOO conservative to you as well, I'll bet.

"Goebbels stood up to greet me. He soon launched into lively memories of our old street-fighting days in Berlin-Wedding, from nineteen twenty-eight to thirty-three. He recalled how we had clobbered the Berlin Communists and the Socialists into submission, to the tune of the "Horst Wessel" marching song, on their old home ground.

He said one of the great accomplishments of the Hitler regime had been to win the German workers over almost totally to the national cause. We had made patriots of the workers, he said, as the Kaiser had dismally failed to do. This, he kept repeating, had been one of the real triumphs of the movement. We Nazis were a non-Marxist yet revolutionary party, anticapitalist, antibourgeois, antireactionary....

Starch-collared men like Chancellor Heinrich Bruening had called us the "Brown Bolsheviks," and their bourgeois instincts were not wrong.

-- Arthur Axman, Nazi youth leader

Whatever bullshit you lefties care to throw up here, there is absolutely no doubt that Nazism was a child of 20th century progressivism, along with Marxist communism (which is left even by your own definition, and 10X as murderous as the Nazis in any event).

Leftism is great except for all the genocide and mass murder. Other than that, food shortages aren't that bad.

6/06/2010 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To BH re:

"But Hitler was way to the right. He wanted a straight up dictatorship from day one. He despised communism."

Is it your opinion that Castro, Moa, Stallin, Pol Pot, Mugabe, et. al. were seeking true democracy but were forced, due to circumstances, to become dictators?

You should be able to do better than this. Further, Hitler was a socialist. He just thought the benefits of socialism should only be vested in the racially pure. Being a racist, does not make him a conservative. The only conservative in power during WWII was Churchill. Roosevelt was as much a socialist as Mussolini and Hitler. I guess you could claim Hirohito as a conservative in that he sought to conserve Imperial Japan. Why you think Hilter a conservative is beyond me. He was a revolutionary racist socialist bent on world domination by superior German stock. Don't know how this makes him a Republican? Maybe I missed something?

6/06/2010 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

The problem is that the semantics don't capture the essence of the historical reality. Bolshevism can be thought of as "leftist" progressivism, and you could for the sake of argument say that Nazism represented "rightist" progressivism (which is essentially non-existent today outside Syria and a handful of other hell-holes). The common element was that most un-conservative motivating idea: everything must change (literally a slogan of the Nazis). The key point is that both Nazism and Bolshevism spring from the same root: progressivism which itself is several hundred years old. The American formula owes nothing to this nihilistic, collectivist root, and hence American conservatives are connected far less to Hitler and the Nazis than are radical American leftists like Ayers and his fellow travelers -- in places high and low.

6/06/2010 03:38:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Everything must change!


Is that a conservative statement to you?

Can you please explain how a party calling itself "socialist" and with "everything must change!" as a primary slogan is a conservative political movement?

Definitions of conservative on the Web:

1. resistant to change

How about it, hot shot? Need some Windex for that fat glass bottom of yours?

6/06/2010 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Good old BH and Anon, talking out of their hulls as usual.

Well I'm off to change diapers. Smells much more refreshing than the stale odor wafting around here from the pie-holes of our resident jesters.

6/06/2010 03:46:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Goldberg's ridiculous book has been amply refuted all over the place. You can start here, and actually learn something about modern scholarship of fascism, which you certainly won't get from Goldberg.

Here's a selection that addresses the issue that has you in a hopeless tangle:

The two fascist chiefs obtained power not by election nor by coup but by invitation from German President Hindenberg and his advisors, and Italian King Victor Emanuel III and his advisors (not a leftist among them). The two heads of state wanted to harness the fascists’ numbers and energy to their own project of blocking the Marxists, if possible with broad popular support. This does not mean that fascism and conservatism are identical (they are not), but they have historically found essential interests in common.

Once in power, the two fascist chieftains worked out a fruitful if sometimes contentious relationship with business. German business had been, as Goldberg correctly notes, distrustful of the early Hitler’s populist rhetoric. Hitler was certainly not their first choice as head of state, and many of them preferred a trading economy to an autarkic one. Given their real-life options in 1933, however, the Nazi regulated economy seemed a lesser evil than the economic depression and worker intransigence they had known under Weimar. They were delighted with Hitler’s abolition of independent labor unions and the right to strike (unmentioned by Goldberg), and profited greatly from his rearmament drive. All of them would have found ludicrous the notion that the Nazis, once in power, were on the left. So would the socialist and communist leaders who were the first inhabitants of the Nazi concentration camps (unmentioned by Goldberg).

I believe Bob or you were incensed that "leftists" had played some horrible trick of conflating fascism and conservatism. As it says above, while fascism and conservatism are not the same, they have been in historical alliance. So rather than blaming leftists, conservatives have only themselves to blame for their association with fascism. And it would take a better mind than Jonah Goldberg's to erase this association from memory.

6/06/2010 04:04:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Just realized the site I linked to in the last comment is run by a nutcase, although the article is by a reputable scholar. Here's a better link to the same thing.

6/06/2010 04:15:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Ya think?

6/06/2010 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Goldberg's response to Paxton's lazy analysis.

6/06/2010 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger Jack said...

To me it boils down to this. Argue ALL you want that Fascism is a phenomenon of the Right, who cares? still doesn't matter. The way I see it is Statist vs Non-Statist. Totalitarianism (by whatever name) vs Limited Government.

A government that respects (and often defers to) bottom-up distributed intelligence rooted in individual responsibility vs relying primarily on top-down elite "intelligence" doling out its benevolence or withholding the same.

Whatever else you might think about the classical liberal position one thing seems clear is that we want Government *limited* to its enumerated powers. This, though no perfect solution (it can be rather messy at times, but that's freedom, that's human life) seems infinitely preferable to a constantly expanding government extending its reach further and further into places it doesn't belong, no matter how "well-intentioned".

6/06/2010 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

To call one of Goldberg's opponents lazy is about as funny as calling Hitler a progressive.

6/06/2010 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Whew, that's quite a refutation of Goldberg's arguments there, anon. Circled back to ad hominem, have we?

6/06/2010 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Hey, give him a break. What's left when argument from authority blows up in your face again?

6/06/2010 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

FTR, anon & bh, or anon/bh, I live in pretty close contact with a theologian. He answers my theology questions pretty thoroughly. So that, in addition to my own reading through the years, is the basis of my understanding of liberation theology in its various forms.

We don't have tv, and my laptop's sound card has been fried for months, so video clips are a rare occurrence around here-- unless I can manage to pry the school computer out of my kids' hands. But when I do, I usually spend the time furthering my current pennywhistle/trad music obsession. :)

6/06/2010 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"My assertion that Obama is not a hater is because I have not heard him issue any denunciations."

Um...bitter clingers? That was off the teleprompter and in friendly radical territory, I believe...

6/06/2010 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

@ Mizze, Junebug - I like it! We've been trying to think of good nicknames :)

@ Jack re. the tyranny of the well- intentioned, I had the pleasure of enduring it first hand this past week, as an army of lactation consultants paraded through my recovery room to explain how I was doing it all wrong. Also, in order to be discharged we had to watch a nightmarish video explaining that babies shouldn't be shaken. And sign a "contract" promising never to shake the baby.

Good advice is always welcome. But being told how to behave in spite of unique and essential circumstances is simply dehumanizing.

6/06/2010 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

Well, I guess I retract my comment that Hitler was a right winger. He wasn't exactly leftist either. He was in a kind of class of his own.

No offense to Bob, but echoes (and these are mere echoes, to be clear) exist between Bob's comments and pages up to 200 or so in "Mein Kampf."

Minus the antisemitism! Certainly. And the racial purity angle. Drop those two angles.

But the diatribes agains the communists are uncanny in their similarity. Is 20th century Germany a lot like 21st century Amerika? You might think so when reading MK.

How they have the media. How they have academia. How they undermine the nation. How they are responsible for sapping the national character. How their insidious poison enters the body politic. How they distort industry.

And that is why I occasionaly shout out "Proto-genocide!" and "Precursors to madness!" here. Unlikely thought that may be.

To read this blog and MK at the same time in parallel is a surreal exercise. Perhaps I should refrain.

6/06/2010 11:02:00 PM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

"The bottom line is that you must observe and master the subjective states others evoke in you, or you will be pulled out of your center and become a slave to those states. Seriously, it's how the adversary operates."

Amen to that. As they say over in Japan: Self-reflection will get you out of Hell. It certainly works in this life, though it may sometimes take some time, if you got in deep. The practice of self-reflection is what separates those who are at home in Heaven from those who may go either way depending on external fate. If someone checks his thoughts and feelings with any regularity, there are limits to the madness he can amass. This is what is written: "Discretion shall preserve thee."

6/06/2010 11:37:00 PM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

By the way, I am a big fan of Utopia or Heaven on Earth. I just think that this must in every case begin in each human heart and work its way outward from there.

Everyone has a pretty good idea of what a human body is like, but even if you make an extremely lifelike replica, and even if you were able to make it from the same elements, you would never be able to give it life. But on the other hand a human life, no matter how tiny, will naturally grow its own body over time into the right size and shape. The only thing you can do to help is simply to provide the conditions where it may unfold most freely. This is exactly the same way with Heaven on Earth.

6/06/2010 11:59:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

blackie: insteada MK along with this blog try MT

6/07/2010 03:57:00 AM  
Blogger Jack said...


Here in my lefty college town I've encountered a group "la leche" when friends have given birth. I would refer to them jokingly, forgive my slight vulgarity, as the "titty mafia".

Sound familiar?


6/07/2010 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger Dianne said...

GB Said - "The bottom line is that you must observe and master the subjective states others evoke in you, or you will be pulled out of your center and become a slave to those states. Seriously, it's how the adversary operates."

Thank you for that reminder. I sometimes forget. You can't have a rational conversation with someone who doesn't know how much they don't know - and has no interest in learning any further or in knowing the truth. Strange how the worst of human nature attaches itself to those people. They have ears, but can't hear. They have eyes, but can't see.

6/07/2010 07:02:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I link to Van on FB. (Loved that post about shamanic eyerolls, Van.) :D

Jack, LOL! That's a pretty funny description.

6/07/2010 07:48:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

anone, perhaps you could dazzle us with your concept of what a Political Right is and how Property relates to that (if at all). For extra points, how about your views on Truth, it's relation to Reality, and our ability to perceive either and/or. Or to really surprise us, how about your views on Free Will?

That would be getting to the point, Van. Trolls never do that! Too hard. Much easier to toss red herrings (proto-genocide!!!!11!!).

6/07/2010 07:52:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Jack, yep - there is no escaping the Leches. We call them the Boob Nazis.

6/07/2010 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

How about my opinion of People who use the typographical trick of employing Capitalization to reify Concepts to make them look more solid than they really are, in a cheap attempt to win the Debate before it begins? Such tricks are a poor substitute for actual Thinking.

6/07/2010 02:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

Leave Britney Alone!

6/07/2010 02:53:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anone said "...use the typographical trick of employing Capitalization to reify Concepts to make them look more solid than they really are, in a cheap attempt to win the Debate before it begins?..."

(Warning: the following will be de-capped out of sensitivity to our aninnies sensibilities (hope that first cap wasn't too traumatic))

wow... where'd all this straw all over the floor come from? oh, hi there anone. are you really in the habit of conceding arguments due to the correct or incorrect usage of capitalization on the part of your opponent?

my... you are sensitive (oh my... it just occurred to me what italicization must do to your delicate nerves - sorry about that).

in the off chance that you actually are able to grasp the meaning of concepts, and understand that they have more meaning than the capitalization and punctuation used to present them, do you think you could gin up the courage to give your answer to just one of those?

(warning to the delicate aninny mind, no-cap zone ends ahead...)

... last chance to avert your eyes...

LOL! What a pathetic weenie!

6/07/2010 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

The Horror!

Ok... sorry... but not even our donkeyaninny was that lame.

6/07/2010 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

You people are halfwits. At best.

What did you read from me that you thought was a concession to anything?

6/07/2010 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6/07/2010 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anone said "What did you read from me that you thought was a concession to anything? "

Hoot! (oh... sorry for the Cap's... oh what the heck...) HOOT!

You funny.

But really, such cheap tricks in order to avoid a debate... well... I can't say they're beneath you... obviously... but still... they are as good as a concession... no... actually worse, they're just running away. No if you'd like to man up (gender issues aside) and actually make a reply which expresses your own thoughts on fundamental principles such as,
... your concept of what a Political Right is and how Property relates to that (if at all)?
... your views on Truth, it's relation to Reality, and our ability to perceive either and/or?
... your views on Free Will?
An actual reply to any one of those would be a surprising demonstration of your potentially being something other than a run of the mill vacuous troll capable of nothing more than cheap demos of trendy cynicism and sophomoric skepticism... all of which is really funny, since by virtue of putting a single sentence together, you utterly concede defeat to the forces of knowledge, logic and virtue.

Unless of course you'd like to actually, openly, state your beliefs on one or more of the above issues.

The history of trolls around here is against you, but hey, maybe you're the one to break the mold.

(heh heh... as if)

(sorry for another delete... blogger's out to get me it seems)

6/07/2010 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

IMA troll and I will openly state my beliefs:

I can't get my needs met. If I was simply at peace I wouldn't be here.

But I need things. Entertainment. Conflict. Drama. Action.

I do not know anything. I just want to dust it up with people.

There you have it.

6/07/2010 07:03:00 PM  

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