Saturday, April 25, 2009

Antichrist Update #9: The Core Assumption of the Morally Inverted Left (3.24.10)

The problem with the word "antichrist" is that you can't use it without people getting the wrong idea. But when I use the word, I am again trying to be quite precise, for if there is a metacosmic dimension we call "Christ," then surely there is a realm of the antichristic. I'm not really interested in mythological uses of the term, nor in locating "the" antichrist per se.

In my mind, it should be as uncontroversial as pointing out that there is a realm of science, and therefore anti-science, e.g., "climate change," metaphysical Darwinism, etc. However, in the case of the antichristic, we are not just dealing with negation or opposition, but inversion -- inversion of the good, true, and beautiful, among other transcendental categories.

Now, I do believe in all sincerity that the left is antichristic. This is not just my opinion, but theirs, since they are obviously deeply opposed to the transcendent -- i.e., the "permanent real" -- in general.

But as it pertains to Obama, the really frightening thing about him is his "superior ignorance" of that which he opposes (for example, his long-time membership in that racist, anti-American sect must make him believe that such views are normative for Christianity -- or even Christianity at all). What I mean by this is that Obama is our first postmodern president. True, Presidents Clinton and Bush were ivy league educated, but this was when it still meant something -- before the leftist takeover of higher education. This transformation began in the late '60s but was only complete by the 1980s.

Thus, by the time Obama attended college in the 1980s, it was possible -- even likely -- that one could pass through one's higher education without once encountering any serious conservative (i.e., liberal) oppostion -- like one of those subatomic particles that can pass through the earth without touching matter. Dennis Prager often mentions that when he speaks on college campuses, students routinely approach him and tell him that they have never heard conservative ideas in any of their classrooms, except perhaps in a caricatured, straw-man way.

As a result, the postmodern leftist lives in a kind of hermetically sealed ignorance that they call "education" or "sophistication." And this is why they feel no need to condescend to the level of those who disagree with them, since we are not just a priori wrong, but evil, misguided, and malevolent as well. Look at Miss Califiornia -- she is not just wrong for believing in traditional marriage, she is not even wrong. She is not to be argued with, nor even tolerated, but condemned. The only hope for her redemption would be in "reeducation," perhaps followed by volunteering at an AIDS hospice.

The whole thing is an interesting spectacle, because the last time I checked up on the leftist Truth of the Day, beauty pageants were intrinsically sexist, since they objectified the female form. But I guess it's now okay to do that, so long as the form in question has the correct politics inside. It's like saying to men: "Don't worry. It's still okay to be straight, so long as you're kind of homo about it." In other words, you can still objectify women, so long as you respect their leftism. But a conservative beauty queen is a different matter. She is just a whore by another name.

The point is that when we see Obama -- what's the opposite of strutting? Slinking? -- around the world stage, apologizing to all and sundry for the existence of the United States, it may make you or me want to vomit, but that's probably only because you either didn't attend an elite university, or else went to college prior to the leftist takeover. This is why Obama can be so simultaneously craven and grandiose, because by submitting to the abuse of the international left, he is demonstrating his moral superiority. In this context, crawling like Obama is strutting (while strutting like George Bush or Ronald Reagan is slinking like a snake).

It's the same with the "torture" debate. People who oppose enhanced interrogation techniques demonstrate their moral superiority over those of us who value innocent human life over making terrorists comfortable. But if they actually had strong arguments, they surely wouldn't have to lie about its effectiveness in saving thousands of innocent lives. The same people would no doubt be opposed to the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, irrespective of how many tens of thousands of American and Japanese lives were spared as a result.

It's very easy to play this game with other people's lives. What these people have to ask themselves is whether they would waterboard a terrorist to save their own life, or their child's life. If they wouldn't, then they are just crazy. It's their choice, but they cannot be allowed to impose their madness on the rest of us. The vast majority of Americans do not hold radical left views on enhanced interrogation.

As Dennis Prager was saying the other day, I have no problem with crazy ideas, since one could no more eliminate them than one can eliminate all disease. My only complaint is when they try to impose their ideas on the rest of us -- especially when they declare evil good, lies truth, and relative absolute.

That latter one, of course, is the root of the spiritual pathology of the left, the "master key." For once you absolutize the relative, then everything else falls into place. Isn't this what the anti-enhanced interrogation people are doing, elevating a relative good to an absolute, so that we obscure the real absolute, which is the protection of innocent human life?

Indeed, isn't the protection of innocent life what justified airing out the skulls of the three Somalian pirates? As Walter Sobchak teaches us, there are consequences. Very simple consequences: This! Is! What! Happens! When! You! F*ck! A! Stranger! In! The! A**!

(Apologies for rolling out the profanity on Shabbos.)

I don't care if they release photos of the interrogations, so long as they show them side by side with people jumping from the top of the Twin Towers, or terrorists beheading Nick Berg, or Israeli convalescent homes for people brain damaged by Palestinian homicide bombs.

Last night I was reading in the Theo-Drama about how everything is either pre-Christian, Christian, or post-Christian. The post-Christians can imagine that they are free of the taint of Christianity, but you will always find it lurking somewhere in their metaphysic. Once you've heard the story, you cannot forget it, try as you might. For example, from where does the concern for victims come? From Darwin? Hardly. Consider what Keith Olbermann said the other night on Clowndown:

"The searing truth: that the moment of torture automatically makes the presumed bad guy recipient the victim, and makes the torturer into the evildoer."

This lunatic sentiment can only be understood as an inversion of Christianity. It would be as if Christ were a terrorist with the blood of thousands on his hands, instead of a sinless victim with the guilt of millions on his back.

Now Olbermann wants to pay Sean Hannity a thousand dollars for every second he undergoes waterboarding. One way -- among others -- we can know he doesn't believe what he is saying, is that it would be deeply immoral for him to pay to have someone tortured if it were actually torture -- for example, raping a child in front of its parents, or putting someone through a plastic shredder, or cutting them apart piece by piece, or crucifixion. (Although I do believe that this angry lunatic would actually like to see Hannity tortured, which is the unconscious point of the offer. Then again, by his own moral reasoning, it would automatically make Hannity the victim and Olbermann the evildoer.)

So, this is the realm of the antichristic. The appropriation and inversion of Christian values in the name of the Absolutely Relative.

125 Comments:

Anonymous sehoy said...

Shomer Shabbos!

4/25/2009 08:38:00 AM  
Anonymous sehoy said...

I did not know that what I was at war with was called absolute relativism until today.

I'm kinda slow.

Thanks for this post.

4/25/2009 08:52:00 AM  
Anonymous sehoy said...

Sorry for the many comments.

But a lightbulb has gone off.

So what we have is numerous little gods standing on their little molehills demanding that we bow down to their pronouncements of what is right and what is wrong.

How oxymoronic of these little gods.

4/25/2009 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I have approached this topic in a number of ways in past posts. It is very similar to Polanyi's idea that the left is animated by an unhinged moral passion in the absence of any traditional moral channel -- or a deep cynicism combined with a ruthless morality.

It happens every time -- for example, the ruthless passion to hunt down and try the people who protect us from terrorists, but the extension of every conceivable excuse and legal protection for our enemies. These animals want blood, but from the wrong people.

4/25/2009 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger mtraven said...

If you think Barack Obama could teach at the University of Chicago Law School without encountering conservatives, you are nuts (or perhaps just ignorant). It is by far the most conservative of the great American law schools. But, don't let facts intefere with your gross generalizations and sterotypes, because I'm sure that's the kind of thinking God prefers.

But your broader point has some validity. It is hard to find intelligent, sane, worthwhile conservative points of view. This is not due to some leftist conspiracy, but to the fact that conservatives as a class are tend to be either stupid, insane, or corrupt, with occasional exceptions.

I feel this lack, because while I lean left I want to expose myself to a range of views. That's one reason I scour conservative blogs. Unfortunately, I've found very little of value. Mainstream conservatives are hopelessly corrupted by power; there is nothing at all appealing or even worth reading at places like the National Review. Libertarians are robotically predictable. The fringes are more interesting but for the most part nuts: there is Mencius Moldbug (very smart, but deraanged), Scipio (a good writer, but deranged), and you (creative, but deranged). The only conservatives I've found that seem worth engaging are Daniel Larison and other writers at the paleoconservative TAC site.

4/25/2009 09:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Stephen said...

Since you brought up the "torture" subject, I read a great definition by Abe Greenwald the other day on Commentary: "Any activity to which Christopher Hitchens would submit himself for an Atlantic article, does not constitute torture."

4/25/2009 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In his Closing of the American Mind, Bloom said that he got the idea for the book by trying to figure out why college students in the 1980s were suddenly so stupid. He traced it back to the rise of absolute relativism, which renders one both stupid and morally retarded, for one is no longer capable of making accurate distinctions in light of the absolute. (See Mtraven for example.)

Again, once you absolutize the relative, everything else falls into place for the antichristic.

4/25/2009 09:09:00 AM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

I like this guy's style. Fine insultainment!

4/25/2009 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Northern Bandit said...

Mtraven's back.

Open a window...

4/25/2009 09:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Northern Bandit said...

Heh. Dude got Maher's number for sure.

"idea of a romantic evening is doing coke with hookers at Sky Bar"

4/25/2009 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

The man is a natural-born loser and, in the long run, you’ll never go wrong betting against a loser like Bill Maher.Oooh, that's gotta leave a mark...

4/25/2009 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

One good thing about mtraven is that he frees me of the burden of having to wade into the foul waters of dailykos or huffpo for fine examples of the latest in leftist Truth. Now I get it delivered fresh at my door each day in crapsule form, like a perverse clipping service.

4/25/2009 09:47:00 AM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Brilliant post.

News break…
Bob, I want to get something off my chest. Sort of a BS Detector Update. When I say “great post”, which I do from time to time, it doesn’t mean I think the others aren’t. “Great” usually means: as among the other great ones, this one peaks out over them. Today’s peaks out over the Great ones. So as far as my BS Detector Update for the day, really not a thing has jammed in it here since 27 Jan 2007 that I can recall.
Back to the brilliant post…

I would like to add… that when we use enhanced interrogation techniques, it is to get information. Just as you say. There is no other reason. Also, as you say, it is not even wrong, to compare our purpose to what those creatures did to Nick Berg – sawed off his head. They didn’t want information. They already had their minds made up. Same was the case with the WTC, and the suicide vests in pizza parlors. And not to put them on the same level, but was the case with Perez Hilton. He knew the answer as much as he dreamed about it. The creatures (and Perez Hilton) set out to punish. Period.

4/25/2009 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

BTW, today is 5 days from when I predicted that the Cheney memo flap would expire in 5 days. Unlike MT, I have no problem adapting to new information when I find out I was wrong. I have no use for useless things.

4/25/2009 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger jwm said...

I was writing about this the other day- the sense that there is some mass inversion of Truth taking place, and Sal, Ricky Raccoon, and Mushroom found an example or two as well. It's one of those things that you don't notice until you begin to pay attention, but once you pay attention to it you begin to notice it more and more. The Inversion is the end product of political correctness. PC has, for so long, systematically substitued palliative little lies for uncomfortable truths, that the palliative lies are now the accepted dogma of the inverted world order. You see it every time a truth is turned on its head. And you don't have to go any farther than the comments section right here. I notice a dirty bird has once again left a smelly blop of inversion for all to catch a whiff of, and gag. I suppose we ought to thank the craven raven. There's nothing quite like having a living example of The Absurdity drop in to prove Bob's point with first hand evidence.
wv: sucts Yes it does.

JWM

4/25/2009 09:58:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Rick:

What you say may have some truth to it, but it saddens me to know that I have displeased mtraven again. I don't know what to do about that except perhaps to ban myself from the blog. No one should be forced to suffer through these deranged, corrupt and predictable posts. It just isn't right.

4/25/2009 10:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At war with "absolute realitivism"

wv confirms "nestines"

Theofilia

4/25/2009 10:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Van's opinion of me as "foolish" will for certain prevent him the ambarassment and pain by reading my blog:)

Theofilia

4/25/2009 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Zoltan said...

The word "madness" is where I came out this week as well.

It comprehends the historical analogies (e.g., extreme Covenanters of Scotland and their Congregational Roundhead counterparts of England [Cromwell]), the theological descriptions (e.g., anti-Christ, heretic and apostate, which are not the same), the clinical analyses (e.g., this and that psychopathology) and the moral condemnations (e.g., this and that sociopathology).

This grasp of "madness" governing this particular class of bad actors -- and it is a seemingly impossibly enormous class by both numbers and nature -- finally gave me substance to feel what Shiva does in the face of threats, insults and other provocations: laugh out loud.

4/25/2009 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Bob,
I've given your proposal a lot of thought. And in cases such as this, I decided to consult with Gen. Toots.
He said the strangest thing. He said,
"I'm Sparticus! I'm Sparticus"
Over and over and over he said this.
I joined in. What else could I do?

4/25/2009 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

but they cannot be allowed to impose their madness on the rest of us.Apparently, yes, they can.

4/25/2009 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Speaking of which, Joan, just as I was reading these comments my phone rang. Since the number came up as "call center," I didn't pick up. But I was left a very polite message helpfully reminding me to save energy by purchasing fluorescent bulbs. The speaker cheerfully also announced that this was a Public Service Announcement.

Because there wasn't already enough awareness, apparently.

Our tax dollars at work.

*sigh*

4/25/2009 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

Yes, they can, in the sense that they are effectively doing so at an alarming rate.

I marvel more at the lemming-like quality of our Congresscritters on both sides of the aisle. Whither the zerO goes, so go they. Our courts as well, are being rendered useless except in the cause of evil. Their better rulings are unsupported with amazing indifference, and hit with legislative backlash. Soon, the SCOTUS will be a mere backdrop to the national drama.

Justice. What a concept. Without absolutes there is no need for the concept of "justice" is there?

4/25/2009 11:07:00 AM  
Blogger mtraven said...

Here's a handy tip: if you find yourself using strained, coy, bureaucratic euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques", that is a pretty infallible sign that you don't really believe what you are saying and are lying to yourself. So, try this exercise: say what you mean. You believe that the US government should have the power to torture whoever it wants, without judicial review or legal restraint. You believe this is good because some of the people being tortured are very evil or "sub-human creatures", and you believe that the information obtained this way makes us safer. The fact that some of the people being tortured are innocent doesn't bother you, nor does the fact that the "enhanced procedures" often seem to slip out of control and end up killing or psychologically destroying the subjects. Nor does the fact that it's a violation of domestic, military, and international law.

If you can just say that straight up, I will still disagree with you, but at least I'll respect your honesty. But to hide the facts of torture (and everyone from the Red Cross to Christopher Hitchens to military investigators says that's what it is) is to lie. You want to be in touch with the Absolute; I would suggest that starting to be honest with yourself would be a good first step.

4/25/2009 11:30:00 AM  
Anonymous mtravin' said...

Empty ravin'.

And likely empty, with little in his life that can be held hostage. That's the key to that sort of thinking. That way, he can remain morally superior and pure in his thought process. No wife, no kids, no dog. Nothing that can break him.

Never let a thing like sentimental human attachment get in the way of a brilliant concept.

4/25/2009 11:48:00 AM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Craven Liar-
To post that you'll no longer comment much here & then post & post & post endlessly is to have lied to us. I would suggest that starting to be honest with yourself would be a good first step... least I'll respect your honesty

4/25/2009 11:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

Mtraven raises an interesting conundrum: does the left make up lies about America because they sympathize with the Islamo-fascists, or do they support the Islamo-fascists because they believe lies about America?

4/25/2009 12:12:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

MT,
Won’t you please join us in your high standards?

(It’s not torture.)

4/25/2009 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger jwm said...

The raven loves it here. This place is like a picture window for him. He fies into it full speed, smacks his fool head into the glass, and then gets up and tries it again. And again. Sort of like the coyote without a roadrunner. Must be some kind of fun...

JWM

4/25/2009 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

MT,
Considering your statements post today’s post, I believe this is a legitimate question: Did you read today’s post? If so, what was/is your answer to the following question:

“It's very easy to play this game with other people's lives. What these people have to ask themselves is whether they would waterboard a terrorist to save their own life, or their child's life.”

4/25/2009 12:28:00 PM  
Anonymous maineman said...

Up here, we had a double dose of Mtraven style inversion this week.

Not only was TOTUS taking yet another giant step toward ruining us for our own good, but there was a big hearing on the bill to destroy marriage in Maine.

As a special treat, we got to watch not a few psychologists rain bigotry upon exactly the same kind of right wing religious dimwits to which Empty refers. The esteemed professionals belittled and shamed their opponents with studies that prove conclusively that children raised by same-sex couples turn out the same as those raised by heterosexual couples.

Thus proving that neither mothers nor fathers bring anything specific to parenting.

Thus proving that men and women are the same.

At least that kind of genius is available somewhere.

4/25/2009 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Doctor: I’m going to conduct a test. Don’t worry it’s easy. It’s called word association. You just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Anything.

Patient: Will it hurt?

Doctor: It won’t hurt.

Patient: Are you sure? Because it sounds like asphyxiation.

Doctor: I said, association. I promise, it won’t hurt.

Patient: Alright.

Doctor: Good. Remember, don’t hesitate. Here we go. First word:
Torture.

Patient: Empty.

Doctor: Cured!

4/25/2009 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Cheney in 2012.

4/25/2009 01:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

Another coonundrum: who's more satanic, someone like Pelosi, who just lies about the program in order to pander to nuts like matraven, or people like mtraven, who's actually nuts enough to believe what he's saying?

I vote for Pelosi, because she's compromising our security and manipulating the mentally ill for political gain.

4/25/2009 01:17:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

O'DONNELL: “So to suggest there's a consensus out there that waterboarding is not torture...”

I can’t believe she used the “c” word on TV after all we’ve learned about anti-science.

4/25/2009 01:20:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

“O'DONNELL: The bottom line - the bottom line is that these techniques have hurt our image around the world.”

Who’s being interviewed here? As in, “I don't like your answers. Here's mine.”

4/25/2009 01:22:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

"Now, I do believe in all sincerity that the left is antichristic. This is not just my opinion, but theirs, since they are obviously deeply opposed to the transcendent -- i.e., the "permanent real" -- in general."

Ooh... bet that left a mark.

Wish I could stick around and play... but darn that global warming, spring has finally come here in the end of April, gotta cut the lawn - wish I could afford to hire some undocumented workers, before they become documented that is and won't work for cheap anymore....

I'll be back later though, that is if I don't get taken out by any of those man-caused disasters first - maybe we'll focus on looking for some strained, coy, bureaucratic euphemisms to get concerned over.

4/25/2009 01:22:00 PM  
Anonymous mtraven said...

And so what if I'm gay? Does that mean that I have no right to an opinion as to the direction I want my my country to go? Does the fact that I have no wife or children and am currently sans relationship partner mean that I have to crawl into a hole and shut up?
And for your information, I do have a cat.
Douchebags ALL!

4/25/2009 01:34:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

That “interview”, in transcript, is an incredible exchange. Still reading..

4/25/2009 01:34:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

1:34 is not MT

4/25/2009 01:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Bob Dylan said...

"it may be the Devil or it might be the Lord, but ya gotta serve somebody"

4/25/2009 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

“O'DONNELL: Is that really appropriate, though, to call the current sitting president weak?”

4/25/2009 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Zoltan said...

Torture is what TOTUS and mcraven are doing: compelling others to do things, say things and think things they would not do, think or say were they not summarily arrested from a quiet, retiring, rational and self-guided life by a torturer's intent to compel them this way and that.

The intent to compel is the torture and the description of a madness.

It is the madman's MO and delight to drive others mad, is it not, to compel them, which is to torture them?

And the madman's handiest tool of torture, of course, is his own presence, to be born down on the target to be compelled.

Madmen are by definition torturers, and only they are. The intent to compel is the intent to torture.

That describes TOTUS and mcraven. Stark-raving mad: science outside Reason and religion outside God.

4/25/2009 01:48:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

Speaking of inversion, did anyone hear/see the entire exchange between Dana Rohrbacher and Hillary Clinton? It's been all over the news how cool Hillary was when said she didn't deem Cheney a credible source but the real smackdown came in rhe next statement from Rorbacher.
It was like an adult scolding a petty child.

4/25/2009 01:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

What a fool O'Donnel is. To suggest that "these techniques have hurt our image around the world” is about as relevant as saying that they have hurt our image at dailykos. I'm much more concerned with the world's image around here. Because it generally stinks.

4/25/2009 02:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Cousin Dupree said...

As they say in Israel, "everyone loves us. Unless we defend ourselves."

4/25/2009 02:21:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Hero of the day.

4/25/2009 02:30:00 PM  
Anonymous mtravin said...

Here's a handy tip: if you find yourself using strained, coy, Post Modern euphemisms like "pro-choice" or "anti-choice", that is a pretty infallible sign that you don't really believe what you are saying and are lying to yourself. So, try this exercise: say what you mean. You believe that the US government should allow certain people to kill any unborn baby and/or infant child they want to kill, without judicial review or legal restraint. You believe this is good because a woman's right to "chose" is inviolable; and some of the people not being designated "persons" or who deemed parasites are only potential persons or simply non-human growths ...

4/25/2009 02:35:00 PM  
Blogger Mike O'Malley said...

Cheney in 2012?


I've got to get me a bumper sticker!

But which one?

Darth Cheney?

Or

the Lady of the Golden Wood, Lynne?

Perhaps both?

4/25/2009 02:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It's the same with the "torture" debate. People who oppose enhanced interrogation techniques demonstrate their moral superiority over those of us who value innocent human life over making terrorists comfortable. But if they actually had strong arguments, they surely wouldn't have to lie about its effectiveness in saving thousands of innocent lives. The same people would no doubt be opposed to the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, irrespective of how many tens of thousands of American and Japanese lives were spared as a result."

The problem with these arguments is that they are profoundly ficticious. See, we don't know what would have happend had we not dropped the atom bombs on the civilian populations of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, since we did, and there was no other afterwards. It may be that it saved "thousands" of lives, but we just don't know.
It's the same with torture. We just don't know.
Your real argument, it seems to me, is that it is far better to bomb or torture, hoping that it will save lives.
This is why, from an orthodox Christian perscective, that torture and offensive war are grave sins.
And this is why, American "conservatism" continues to part ways with orthodox Christianity.

4/25/2009 03:04:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

He fies into it full speed, smacks his fool head into the glass, and then gets up and tries it again.Errr, sometimes that Boing! of bird-on-glass leaves a feathered-corpse lying outside.

4/25/2009 03:23:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

What do you mean we "don't know" if bombing Japan saved thousands of lives? Don't be an ignoramus.

4/25/2009 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

Empty Cravin: Cats don't count. You can't really have a cat.

4/25/2009 03:30:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Bob,
You’re wrong.
I’ve heard disgusting, despicable, horrible people suggest it may have saved millions of lives.
How dare you.

4/25/2009 03:44:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

“O'DONNELL: OK. Liz Cheney, stay with us, because we're going to have much more not only about these particular harsh interrogation memos that some people are calling torture memos, whether the vice president will participate, will testify before a truth commission, and the future of the Republican Party. We've got a lot more coming up right after this.”

Truth commission?

Is it 1984 in here, or is it just me.

4/25/2009 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger jwm said...

It's just you, comrade. Sleep with the pod, Ricky; you'll feel better in the morning.

JWM

4/25/2009 04:24:00 PM  
Blogger jwm said...

Errr, sometimes that Boing! of bird-on-glass leaves a feathered-corpse lying outside.
We should be so lucky.
OOPS!
Did I just advocate violence and/or torture? I sure hope not.

JWM

4/25/2009 04:28:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Excellent post, Bob!

You sure raised the hackles of the trolls. They hate the harsh truth of reality (and vice versa).
To them, the truth is torture.
I notice MCraven (nor any other trolls) never answers the question you raised.

Perhaps they are afraid to admit they are indeed cowardly cretins, but that's where their twisted logic and sense of "morality" leads.
At least Ghandi admitted it.

IMO all of this will backfire on Obambi and the DhimmiDonks bigtime, and I'm happy to see Dick Cheney and his wife speaking out against this BS.

It's funny in a way, 'cause the Donks have the power they craved, but they just can't leave well enough alone. By all means lets make public ALL the documents and memo's and see the public reaction when they hear how Bush/Cheney and our Military and Law Enforcement kept us safe since 9/11.

I'm bettin' the vast majority of Americans will turn on the Donks once they see the truth, and learn what the consequences of releasing these tactics will lead to. It won't just hurt our Military and Intel communities.

When the chickens come home to roost will Obambi still be sittin' on his loonicorn of faux moral superiority?

4/25/2009 04:29:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Ricky,

If dat pod don't fit comfy, try Telling the Truth on for size.

4/25/2009 04:32:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Julie-

Thanks for that link! I saw that guy on the local news last night.
He sure is a hero, beating down those two thugs. :^)

4/25/2009 04:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, now that I have time on my hands I will respond to Bob's "But when I use the word, I am again trying to be quite precise, for if there is a metacosmic dimension we call "Christ", then surely there is a realm of the antichrist."

Heck I didn't even blog on this, because I had plenty of other things to blah-about. . .

So first, I have to start with a news item I saw/heard on Canadian all news TV network, for it to makes sense.
Several days before (this, last) Christmas, the anchor-person was talking directly to a shop owner in Italy showing him Obama figurines. "Number one selling item this year. People buy it for the Nativity as an addition to the Holy Family."

Moving on. Self-explanatory.

So this night, I was face to face with very real looking Obama...Angry as hell - body bent to demonstrate uncouthly with finger - making gestures as if to make myself puke right after I saw a picture of the Nativity with his image in it. Indicating, "you're not the one, (Saviour) see what I think about that?".

I was very rude . . .
Then I regreted my rudness "What if he doesn't think he is?", and wanted to talk to him.
Sure 'nuf - again we were face to face. I was actually weeping regreting my rudness, then asked if he thought he was "THE ONE".

He sure didn't indicate in any sense, shape and form he thinks otherwise.

Theofilia

4/25/2009 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

What pod? Whater u talking abo..

Hold on...

MT! GET AWAY FROM MY CAR!

I'm back. That was weird. What were we talking about?

4/25/2009 04:47:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Good link, Ximeze!

"The first job of a president is to safeguard his country and fellow citizens, which Bush did, to the apparent dismay of the opposition. Usually, an investigation takes place after someone has failed in his duty, to find out what went wrong so that it can be changed and improved on. But no attacks on U.S. soil in the seven-plus years between September 11, 2001, and January 20, 2009, is a record of success. Do the Democrats want to find out what went right, and then change it, to avoid repetition? The way that they're going, they probably will."

Indeed, they have already begun.
Good luck getting crucial information from terrorists after reading them their Miranda rights.
Antichrist? Yep, they sure are.

4/25/2009 04:48:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

But Ximeze, I red there’s now two kinds of truth. There’s the Ministry’s, and then there’s the unpersons’s.

4/25/2009 04:53:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Got unperson?
Read all about it in our latest issue of
Newspeak today!

4/25/2009 05:10:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

Ricky -

This came to me via QP a while ago. You might enjoy it:

The term crimestop comes from Orwell's 1984:
...the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline. The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

4/25/2009 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Rick, Walt-

How true. No wonder Obambi has so many Czars in his blingdum.
And now, with the mandatory "volunteer" bill in place, we will see more reeducation camps to prevent thought crimes and implement crimestop. Mcraven and company already employ crimestop to themselves.

4/25/2009 05:39:00 PM  
Blogger mtraven said...

No wife, no kids, no dog. You folks are determined to be wrong about everything, aren't you? Although I have been neglecting my kids and dog of late, what with the time taken up by these delightful exchanges.

It is because I have kids that I bother to be somewhat activist on this issue. Before, I'd probably settle for smug cynicism, on the order of "oh well, torture, that's just what governments do, what do you expect?" Having kids makes me feel more obligated to what small part I can do to make this a better world. And a world where the US abides by the rules of civilized nations, rather than like a clone of the NKVD, is a better world.

A number of you are asking me to answer a stupid hypothetical question about what would you do if your daughter was tied to the railroad tracks and the only way to save her was by electrocuting the genitals of this handy Arab, or something like that. There are about a dozen things wrong with that question, the top four that come to mind being:

- We are talking about restricitions on what governments can do, which is an entirely different thing than the question of what an individual under duress might do.

- There is not the slightest shred of evidence to indicate that torture has saved anybody's life in the war on terror. It is quite certain. though, that it has immeasurably harmed our standing in the world. We are no longer in a position to give anybody else lectures on how they should behave, if we ever were.

- Torture is excellent at producing false information. If I actually needed to get vital information about something out of a prisoner, I'd hope they'd use techniques that actually work; the kind preferred by actual professional

- Life is not an episode of 24>, and government torturers are not Jack Bauer. Grow the fuck up.

I have to run and entertain the children and dog, so I'll outsource the rest of this reply to the Joan Baez article I cited awhile back. Not directly applicable, since I'm not a pacifist, but it deals with the same kind of stupid hypotheticals. And it reminds me that nobody ever answered the question I asked weeks ago, namely, if you guys are such fired-up Christians, what ever happened to all that "turn the other cheek" stuff? So, since I'm answering your question, maybe you can answer mine.

4/25/2009 05:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Skully said...

Protective stupidity is no defense to a Good right Cross to the snoz!

Skully wisdom #84.

4/25/2009 05:42:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

“What would you do if your daughter was tied to the railroad tracks and the only way to save her was by electrocuting the genitals of this handy Arab, or something like that.”

Or something like that?
Bob’s right. You’re crazy.

4/25/2009 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Ben, Walt,

RE Crimestop, I propose a bill to reduce the voting age to one day old.
Our chances would be better.

4/25/2009 05:49:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

MT,
…and after I stuck up for you at 1:37.

4/25/2009 05:51:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I do wish I could explain to my fellow Raccoons the nature of mental illness -- not mere anxiety or depression, but what is called "character pathology," or personality disorders, or "axis II conditions," because then you would comprehend the utter futility of arguing with someone like McCraven. It was by far my favorite subject in graduate school, and until you understand it, you really have no idea how sick a person can be, and still be functioning in the world.

Perhaps I should write a post on personality disorders in film and literature.... It's obviously a very rich subject...

4/25/2009 05:53:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Mcraven-

Turn the other cheek doesn't apply in this situation nor was it meant to. To imply that Jesus advocated pacifism shows just how ignorant you are of Christ and Christianity.

Here, I'll give you a cluebat.
Jesus said: "No greater love than this, that a man will lay his life down for his friends."

You know, like the guy that jumps on a grenade to save his friends, or the man who takes a bullet, fighting to protect his family, or the woman who dies protecting her children from "reformed" criminals.
Folks who accept certain or at least probable death to protect those they love is the greatest love we humans can exhibit.

Has absolutely nothin' to do with "turn the other cheek."
A pacifist might claim to be a Christian but that's not Christ-like if they ain't willin' to lay their lives down to protect their loved ones.

It's idiotic to quote scriptures you have no understanding of.

4/25/2009 05:57:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

I wish I could explain how this doesn’t feel like arguing. It’s a “comment window” thing.
That’s also a way of saying, please post about the personality disorders.

4/25/2009 05:57:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Aye, Bob!
I'm with Rick. Well, not physically, but you know...:^)

4/25/2009 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Ben,
I had a guy tell me he missed me in a “totally hetero way”. True story.
Then I punched him in the stomach.

4/25/2009 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Donald Sensing said...

The atom bombings of Japan certainly saved millions of lives, not mere thousands. Historian Richard Frank documented in his book Downfall that civilians under Japanese occupation in the empire were dying at a rate of 500,000 per month by mid-1945.

It has long been assumed that 200-300 thousand Americans would have died conquering Japan and at least a million Japanese.

But US documents declassified not too many years ago really show that if the US had not atom bombed Japan, we still would not have invaded. The domestic political and military consensus was jelling that the cost could not be justified.

Instead, all Japan would have been placed under siege. Almost every city had already firebombed out by August 1945. B-29s might have been diverted to lesser populations. But the bombers' greatest damage was not done by dropping bombs, but mines into the water approaching Japan's ports.

By early 1945, Japan's imports of materiel and foodstuffs had been so completely interdicted that the average ration per civilian adult was extremely reduced, many adults getting below 1,000 calories per day. This is barely enough to sustain life of any meaningful activity at all and over a long term is literally a starvation diet.

This was the actual intention of American forces; in fact, the destruction of Japanese merchant shipping, its ports and rail line away from ports was named, no fooling, "Operation Starvation."

Most people don't know that after the US occupied Japan in August 1945, we shipped billions of pounds of food there. In October, practically all of Japan's rice fields were destroyed by a furious typhoon. Unless for America's larder, which only Japan's surrender made possible, millions of Japanese would have died of starvation.

Also, had Japan had npt surrendered, there would very likely have been a popular revolution against the government by the literally starving masses. Japan's Kempe Tai had already concluded that before Hiroshima disappeared. Mitsumasa Yonai, Japan's civilian navy minister, literally called the atom bombings "God's gifts" for that very reason - it enabled Japan to surrender gracefully and avoid revolution.

Who would want to guess the number of people who would have died in such a rebellion?

I wrote a lot more about this here: Atom bombings and contemporary context.

4/25/2009 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Well…that last part wasn’t true.
Hey Ben!

4/25/2009 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Also, I just want to say that it's Beer O'clock here in Tonga, and I'm listening to my brand new copy of Pure Genius: The The Complete Atlantic Recordings of Ray Charles.

7 CDs, 1 DVD, hardbound book, deluxe packaging, list price 149.98, but STOLEN on amazon for only 30 bucks. The only thing better would be if it was hot.

If you look in the sidebar, you'll see that they have one more copy at this absurdly low price for some of the greatest cosmic music America has produced. I envy the person who gets to hear it for the first time. Can't wait to introduce Future Leader to it. One of the inimitable "voices of America" that only could have arisen here, e.g., Sinatra, Armstong, Aretha, Cash, and Dylan.

BTW, one of the reasons why Van Morrison is so great is that his father was a collector of cosmic American music, so it was always playing in the house. That's how Van discovered that he wasn't really a white Irish guy, but an Cosmo-American black guy.

This was Charles' absolute peak, as he lost his artistic way by the late '60s, and never produced anything close to this level of perfection after that.

It includes all of his instrumental jazz sides, but they're all very soulful and funky, not scary at all...

The song Hard Times never fails to raise the hair on back of my neck, if I had hair there (one of Dupree's responsibilities is to wax me).

4/25/2009 06:16:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

You told me you’d be waxing nostalgic?!
How could you.

4/25/2009 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

I love Ray Charles. Well, hopefully it's there next month, or later. :^)

Hiya Rick!

4/25/2009 06:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Skully said...

No wonder yer so messed up. The next grog is on me, Cuz.

4/25/2009 06:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Northern Bandit said...

My 2 cents:

Frankly I'm not a fan of the term "enhanced interrogation". An expression I prefer is "harsh interrogation techniques". More accurate, and doesn't have that bureaucratese ring to it.

When thousands of lives are at stake, damned straight we should be harsh.

4/25/2009 06:49:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Donald Sensing-

From your blog-
"There is no doubt that many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of solders and civilians across the Pacific and Asian areas would have died from the war had it continued; discussion of prospective American and Japanese casualties from an invasion of Japan don't consider that hundreds of thousands of other nationalities were perishing every month at Japanese hands in lands still under Japanese control."

Well said and well researched, sir!

4/25/2009 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Northern Bandit-

Either way, it's not torture. Hell, there's plenty of our Troops who have gone through the same thing and they are quite healthy, mentally and physically.

Case in point: Marcus Luttrell, Navy SEAL. Recently, some sadistic punks murdered his dog, and he could've easily have killed them all. Instead he chased them across 4 counties into a Texas Ranger roadblock, where they were arrested.

Torture my ass. Harsh? Perhaps. The truth is people like Mcraven ain't fit to lick Marcus's boots.
Okay, rant over. Fuck you Mcraven!
I'm sorry, Bob. I'll ignore Mcraven moron from here on out.
Good grief!

4/25/2009 07:06:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

literally called the atom bombings "God's gifts" for that very reason - it enabled Japan to surrender gracefully and avoid revolution. Donald, this is absolutely true. For 15 years I was married to a Japanese national & spent many hours in Japan talking with his Mother & Grandmother about life there during the War. The women were candid about conditions, what they had to do to survive, and what they saw coming down the pike for them very soon.

They also expressed the 'God's gifts' attitude about whatever forced the end of the War. Living just outside Tokyo, they would watch the red-glow of firebombings at night. Mom had an encounter with a pre-bombing strafer once while tilling a field. It made a dive for her, checked her out - she saw the pilot's face - did not fire and then climbed again, with wing-dips to her. She told me to my face that at that moment she realized what they'd been told about the Americans was BS & propaganda.

After Nagasaki & the Emperor's first-ever radio address to say Japan was surrendering, Grandma immediately went to the Temple to make offerings in thanksgiving that the 15-yr War was finally over and her that eldest son (16) would be spared his Kamikaze flight the following week. Mom managed to get a job changing lightbulbs on a US base & that's how Grandma & all 11 children mangaged to eat for years.

4/25/2009 07:24:00 PM  
Blogger Das said...

Back to mtraven: speaking of scouring the blogosphere, seems to me the right is constantly trying to figure out the left while only occasionally calling them stupid etc. While on the left you have unrelieved fetor and calumny hurled at the right. I wouldn't call anyone on the left stupid - we all are after all a club of men and women sitting at plastic keyboards after all, not warriors, ninjas or legendary figures. I would call the left non-thinking in that they so seldom probe their own tropes, e.g.,
a) "...restore America's standing in the world" (the European intelligencia - and by extension the 3rd world intelligencia - has never liked America - see Charles Dickens' "Martin Chuzzlewit"; common people, on the other hand, have always loved America and tried like hell to get over here. Check the stats for visa application at any US embassy in the world - hint: the numbers go up)
b) America creates terrorists (as if any America left or right has any kind of understanding or insight into terrorist creation. How can anyone spoon-fed freedom since day one claim to know the mind of a mass murderer? you can say you do but you really don't. Yes, we have imagination and empathy, but you can't draw such easy bold lines - America big and bully = terrorist creation - and claim to be a thinker.)

4/25/2009 07:30:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Ximeze-

Thanks for sharing that. Wow! That's powerful! God bless your Grandma.

4/25/2009 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Just reading my Ray Charles book, and two comments stand out. First by Van Morrison:

"If I had to name a single album that changed my life and formed my musical sensibility, it was that Ray Charles concert in Atlanta. I consider it one of the world's greats works of art."

Then there is the inevitable "politicization of liner notes" by the author:

"I believe to my soul that this body of work, fashioned in the '50s, a decade of deep conservatism and extreme caution... expanded our artistic horizons and sense of wonder, now and forever."

Hmm. Timeless art comes of a conservative era, but so much crap comes out of our leftist, post-human era. Go figure!

4/25/2009 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Das:

Excellent points. Thank you.

4/25/2009 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Bob-

Aye! And I imagine that "conservativism" is actually Classic Liberalism. They go hand in hand: Boundaries and Liberty.
Like great music!

4/25/2009 07:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Northern Bandit said...

USS Ben:

Oh I agree with you 100%, Ben. It's the term that I dislike, not the necessity to use harsher than "Starsky & Hutch" techniques when there is no alternative, and terrorist operations are likely.

The real evil inflicted by the Left here is the constant conflation of terrorism with garden-variety crime. These are not criminals, they are psychotic mass murderers.

4/25/2009 07:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Kepler Sings said...

mtraven

You ask the questions about torture, or harsh interrogation. First before the Left found a new cause about torture, but only if we did it to save lives, they have ignored all the REAL torture in all the countries whose dictators they love and admire.

I used to think torture was pulling out fingernails, whippings, beatings, pliers and blowtorches. Most normal people probably thought the same thing. But the Left has succeeded in convincing millions that what many in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco used to pay to have done to them, some military misfits did to some O, so very innocent Iraqi's in Abu Gharib.

Well now we know what torture is all about. So to address your question, I will pretend I am President of the United States, and they capture a terrorist that hid a dirty bomb in the city in which you live with your cat.

So nobody will waterboard him, or even talk harshly to him because little cry baby wimps like you would start bawling out loud. Better to let an American City to be nuked, than to lose our high opinion of our perfected Leftist morality, let the poor bloke watch TV and bring him a banana split while you are at it.

So I myself with pliers and blowtorch in hand would do the deed. I would not enjoy it, unless is was Janeane Garofalo, or Sean Penn. But believe me he would tell me everything I asked.

Your city would be saved and then all you horrified Leftists that were saved could come and impeach me. Is that clear now? Also I don't give a damn what you would think of me, as IMO Leftists are just furniture God uses to populate this morality play, the rest of us are being perfected.

4/25/2009 07:50:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Benster

Those women were really something. I stayed with him way past his expiration-date because I did not want to disappoint them. Best part is that the Kamikaze-in-training went on to have a lifetime career in Aviation. Last I heard he was head-honco of Flight Mechanics for Canadian Airlines in Japan.

4/25/2009 08:12:00 PM  
Anonymous uncle Remus said...

So den Br'er Raven, he looked 'round and seed that them 'coons done plucked out all'n his tailfeathers, an' he was lookin' mighty foolish with 'is nekkid buttail a'hangin out...

4/25/2009 08:19:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Kepler Sings-

Right on! I will coontinue to fight...for what's right. I will not accept defeat, by the hands of evil, be they terrorists or the left.

Here's the thing:
No matter what the left, or terrorists do, the Remnant will survive. The Remnant will coontinue to give their lives for Liberty!

And they will not lose. So go ahead leftists. Proclaim your victory, even as you die in terror. We will not submit, and that...is what makes us different than you.

Pray. Pray you will understand the Truth before it's too late.
In the meantime, be grateful for men and women that are your betters.

Consider this a heartfelt, and friendly warning. Because you will not get much more.

You say you support the Troops. Well now, why don't you back that up, before it's too late?
Quit talkin' and start walkin'.
The choice is yours, and thank God you have that choice!

I'm not exagerating here. This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around. This is the real deal.
Destiny or fate. You choose.

Northern Bandit- I gno. Now quit screwin' around and get with the Ogram. :^)

4/25/2009 08:28:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Ximeze-

God bless you Milady! :^)

4/25/2009 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Remember Nora O'Donnell saying that the United States had prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding in WWII? Damn liar.

4/25/2009 08:52:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Saturday night theater.

4/25/2009 10:06:00 PM  
Blogger mtraven said...

Surely it's a sign of desperation when I post something perfectly reasonable and Bob responds with a psychiatric diagnosis -- a professional-grade form of the ad hominem fallacy. That indicates to me that I'm penetrating his defenses a bit. Of course, I'm not a trained psychologist, so I could be wrong. Doesn't anybody want to address the substance of my last comment? Even to tell me it's all wrong, and give reasons? That's what an argument is supposed to look like, you know.

4/25/2009 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger mtraven said...

Another note: it's grimly ironic for torture advocates to be citing Orwellian terms like "newspeak", when your favorite terms like "enhanced interrogation procedures" could have been copied directly from his "Politics and the English Language", and the insect torture of Abu Zubaydah could have been copied from the climactic Room 101 scene of 1984. Hm, now that I think about it, Room 101 was located in the Ministry of Love, seems like you folks would find a home in an organization like that, talking of love while defending torture seems to be a specialty of the house.

4/25/2009 10:27:00 PM  
Blogger mtraven said...

To Kepler, who said: they [the left] have ignored all the REAL torture in all the countries whose dictators they love and admire. For one thing, that's complete bullshit, there are many leftish groups (like Amnesty International, which I support) that work for human rights in all countries. But more importantly, there is a fundamental difference between toture in Uzbekistan and torture committed by the US government, in that the latter is being done in my name and yours, paid for with my tax dollars, by people who (in theory) work for me, and thus I as a member of the American electorate bear responsibility for those actions. So that's why "the left" (actually, anybody who retains a moral compass) spends more energy talking about torture committed by the US than other places. Understand?

4/25/2009 10:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Damned liberals:

In analyzing what caused terrorism, the pope said in the Vatican's annual review of world conflicts that "consideration should be given not only to its political and social causes, but also to its deeper cultural, religious and ideological motivations."

Benedict also issued a warning about fundamentalism.

"Religious fanaticism, today often labeled fundamentalism, can inspire and encourage terrorist thinking and activity," he said.

His message, which was issued for the approaching new year, also lamented that international diplomacy aimed at eliminating nuclear menace had become "bogged down."

Benedict paid tribute to his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, who vigorously opposed the war in Iraq, and said the church would continue "serving the cause of peace."

At a news conference about the peace message, Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's pontifical council on peace and justice, was asked if torture could be a legitimate tool to gain information that might prevent terror attacks.

The prelate replied that there was no justification for using torture, which is the "humiliation of the human person, whoever he is."

"The church does not allow torture as a means to extract the truth," Martino said. Terror suspects "sometimes say what the torturers want to hear. ... There are other ways to obtain the truth."

4/25/2009 10:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Before a crowd of nearly 60,000 people at Yankee Stadium, Pope Benedict XVI ended his first visit to the United States as leader of the Roman Catholic Church with a reminder to the flock Sunday that "obedience" to church authority is the foundation of their religious faith."

4/25/2009 10:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So...Catholics are required, by the Pope, evidently, since he espouses "spiritual pathology" and must be an anti-Christ, to be leftists.
That must be inconvenient.

4/25/2009 10:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another view on Japanese surrender:
http://ussslcca25.com/zach12.htm

4/25/2009 11:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What can be said, too, about those governments which count on nuclear arms as a means of ensuring the security of their countries? Along with countless persons of good will, one can state that this point of view is not only baneful but also completely fallacious. In a nuclear war there would be no victors, only victims. The truth of peace requires that all -� whether those governments which openly or secretly possess nuclear arms, or those planning to acquire them �- agree to change their course by clear and firm decisions, and strive for a progressive and concerted nuclear disarmament. The resources which would be saved could then be employed in projects of development capable of benefiting all their people, especially the poor.

In this regard, one can only note with dismay the evidence of a continuing growth in military expenditure and the flourishing arms trade, while the political and juridic process established by the international community for promoting disarmament is bogged down in general indifference. How can there ever be a future of peace when investments are still made in the production of arms and in research aimed at developing new ones? It can only be hoped that the international community will find the wisdom and courage to take up once more, jointly and with renewed conviction, the process of disarmament, and thus concretely ensure the right to peace enjoyed by every individual and every people. By their commitment to safeguarding the good of peace, the various agencies of the international community will regain the authority needed to make their initiatives credible and effective."

4/25/2009 11:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon,

Have you done your penance for voting for Obama?

4/25/2009 11:24:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

mtraven,


Judging from the personality which comes across the internet so clearly, I think your children have more immediate concerns than what the world thinks of the U.S..

4/25/2009 11:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Kepler Sings said...

mtavern said:

But more importantly, there is a fundamental difference between toture in Uzbekistan and torture committed by the US government, in that the latter is being done in my name and yours.

Yeah when they were "torturing," I think they said to the stupid and EVIL Jihadist loser, smack one across the face, "that you punk is from mtavern, you gonna tell us where the yellow cake is?"

He just laughed and said, "You tell mtavern he is a pussy, back in Uzbekistan we use men like him when we run out of goats."

But trying to tell you morons that everything is not about you, but is actually about a lot of other people is like trying to put the babies back into Octomom.

So anyway you complete pussy, I am sending my congressman a letter and telling him to "torture" any and all Jihadist scum that are trying to kill Americans, to do it in my name, but if they find out any info on terrorist attacks on any liberal enclave, to ignore that information since it was gotten by such horrible and immoral means.

Then send all the Gitmo punks to live in your cities and towns. I almost could wish for Civil War in this country to split from you godless Pharisees. I could hardly imagine any human being could become more of a prissy little bitch than those that killed Christ, but you current liberals make the Pharisees of Christ's day seem like light-hearted stand up comics.

Is there anything more self-important, more fatuous, more in love with their own opinions of themselves than you liberals? What a stink you have made on the earth.

And because we conservative/belivers have a moral center we are not terrified that suddenly if out of necessity and survival we have to do something repugnant, will suddenly become that thing. It is you faithless liberals that are so terrified of the darkness you must know exists at your center, that you always cry out for some external prop, (Law, Constitution, the approval of others, your wife's skirt) because you must always be terrified of what you will become.

But I, on the other hand will do what I must for my family, or nation to survive and once I have dealt with the wild beasts, then I will just be myself which is live and let live. For people like me, we are not in perpetual war, we are not like liberals that live and breathe and think about controlling others.

We expect others to control themselves. But once attacked by scum, we call them scum, deal with them as scum, and deny them the shelter and company of civilized men. To such we set our faces like flint, because we are good, we know we are good, we know we love God, and our families and our nation.

Woe to the assholes that test us on this matter. Do you think good does not carry a sword? Did you think we are like you? Confused and bound by a phony morality? Evil exists, we know it, and now it has our attention. They will not win, it will not even be close.

Now you can join us, or go under the tank tracks you miserable cowardly little punk. But stop us you will not, none of your ilk has any idea that right now Obama and his demon worshiping hordes is just about to get on our last nerve.

We know the end of the story as most of us have read Revelations and it speaks of men "I use that word loosely," That they would accept the mark of the beast, and here is wisdom; the mark of the beast is those that Love the governments of man, but do not love the inner governance of God.

That is why all of you love Obama, he is the head of the beast, you love the beast, you worship government as we men, worship God. But beasts devour, and this government you adore? It will devour you, it will turn and eat all of you. I hope to hand the beast the napkin after its meal.

4/26/2009 02:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Way to sing, Kep!
It would be fascinating to have Bob analyze your lunatic rants in a post.
It's folks like you and Van that keep me from telling anyone about this blog--oh and Julie, can't forget her.

4/26/2009 06:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Fat Lady said...

SING IT LOUD Kepler, Van and Julie, if it keeps more assholes away.

4/26/2009 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger mtraven said...

Kepler: you might be a dangerous fascist if you weren't so obviously mentally challenged. If you are so intent on setting your face in flint and taking sword in hand, why don't you join the military instead of ranting on the internet? I hear they are so desperate for recruits these days they'll even taking people with obvious psych problems, so you shouldn't run into much trouble down at the recruiting center.

Of course, you'll have to swear an oath that you'll respect your commanding officers, which includes the Beast Obama at the top of the hierarchy. What a dilemma! You want to crush the terrorists (and me) under tank treads, but you don't like government, and governments are the only ones with tanks. It's enough to make one's head explode.

4/26/2009 09:47:00 AM  
Anonymous uncle Remus said...

Den dat ol' br'er Raven he kep on' squawkin' away not payin' no mind to de fac dat all'n 'is tailfeathers was plucked out, and his nekkid tailbutt was a hangin' out fer all'n de world to see, an' dat all dem 'coons was laughin at 'im on account o' he lookin' so foolish.
Dat ol' Raven jus kep on a squawkin' an a squawkin' and not makin' no kinda sense, and de Coons, dey was a tellin' him, "You go 'way now Raven, cuz you is lookin foolisher and foolisher, but dat ol' raven, he jus kep on a squawkin...

4/26/2009 10:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Kepler Sings said...

mtavern

Let me know when your head is going to explode I will invite friends and bring the popcorn. By the way I was already in the military Viet Nam vet. I remember you Leftists got you way then also and 2 or 3 million Cambodians paid the price in "REAL" torture and death in order for you liberals to have your little orgasms of self-righteousness.

And hundreds of thousand of South Vietnamese paid the price in REAL torture and re-education camps. Just to serve as vibrators to your smug, self absorbed egos. But what they heck they were just 3rd world little yellow people, certainly after being used in your Berkeley passion plays they were of no use to you pristine pussies of the Left.
I would not recommend to any young person considering going into the military under Obama. Look what they are doing to the CIA.

Just think (others not you) you kill somebody in the heat of battle and Obama sends his goons (fascists like you) to put him on trial. Let the liberals defend liberal America for awhile. You can throw condoms, or the posters of Obama on the ceiling over your bed at the enemy.

4/26/2009 10:52:00 AM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Anon 11:01pm

Thanks for the Admiral Zacharias item - had not read that before now. Sounds to me a bit CYA from 1950 - after we actually knew how things turned-out vs-a-vs Japan's Unconditional Surrender.

It cites the Peace-Faction & negotiation contacts within Japan, but completely avoids the Ultranationalist who were actually in charge and running the War. Hirohito had virtually no power make hostilities cease and things got pretty dicey for his actual survival at the end there, what with coups & assassination plots thru August '45, before Formal Surrender Sept 2.

Also missing is any referrence to either of the Ni-Go or F-Go Projects, ie Japanese A-Bomb projects that were in a race with Manhattan for completion date. Submarine U-234 had been dispatched from Germany April '45 with a cargo of unprocessed uranium oxide that surrendered to US forces in the Atlantic following Germany's surrender. What might the Japanese already have ready to go at their disposal?

By April '45 we thought they might be really close to having their own A-bomb. Rumors surfaced they had planned an August 12 nuke test, so Little Boy & Fat Man, dropped August 6 & 9 respectively, were deployed prior to that date.

My point is that after the fact everybody can do shoulda-coulda-woulda & CYA, but at the front-end, making judgement calls for victory based on whatever partial information we had at the time is something quite different.

4/26/2009 12:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ximeze,
That's my point, too. All we can say is that it ended the war, not that we traded thousands for more than that, since we have no way of knowing a history that did not happen.

4/26/2009 01:49:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Hmmm, we don't know for sure, but we can have a pretty good idea.

The Admiral's version of events is particularly interesting considering how vilified & unpopular Truman was in 1950, in the manner that Bush 43 is today. Mil-brass who serve under unpopular Presidents seem to often have the habit of distancing themselves, if they can. We have a slew of them right now too.

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up on Zacharias. It'll be fun to do some digging on him & see what comes up.

4/26/2009 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Mike O'Malley said...

mtraven said... It is because I have kids that I bother to be somewhat activist on this issue. Before, I'd probably settle for smug cynicism, on the order of "oh well, torture, that's just what governments do, what do you expect?" Having kids makes me feel more obligated to what small part I can do to make this a better world. And a world where the US abides by the rules of civilized nations, rather than like a clone of the NKVD, is a better world.If the Bush Administration behaved like a clone of the NKVD, Pinch Sulzberger would have "jumped" to his death from to of the New York Times headquarters building in late 2003...

.


So Mtraven you want a world where the US abides by the "rules" of civilized nations?


Is it safe for us to presume that you MTraven duly teach your children about that Rwandan genocide. Do you teach your children how the US was under treaty obligation to intervene to stop the genocide? Recall that the UN and Clinton Administration had six months of warnings about this genocide. They had been given the secret locations of the Hutu weapons caches. The UN Peace keeper force commander in Rwanda, a Canadian general, asked for 25,000 additional troops to confiscate the cached weapons. This request was refused by President Clinton. In April 1994 when the genocide began President Clinton determined to ignore his legal obligation to intervene. President Clinton and now UN ambassador Susan Rice dishonestly argued that they did not know that genocide was going on in Rwanda. Pres. Clinton and Susan Rice said that they only knew of "acts of genocide" but no genocide: so they argued that could not legal intee could not intervene. (Human Rights Activists and the CIA told them that genocide was going on - Clinton lied, so did Susan Rice.). The current Rwandan government's estimates of the number of victims of the genocide is 1,174,000 in 100 days (10,000 murdered every day, 400 every hour, 7 every minute). It is estimated that only about 300,000 Tutsis survived the genocide. Thousands of widows, many of whom were submitted to rape, are now HIV positive. Rape was a prominent aspect of this genocide. "In his 1996 report the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Rwanda, Rene Degni-Segui stated that "rape was the rule and its absence the exception." The report also stated that "rape was systematic and was used as a "weapon" by the perpetrators of the massacres. This can be estimated from the number and nature of the victims as well as from the forms of rape." The Special Rapporteur estimated that between 250,000 and 500,000 Rwandese women and girls had been raped. A 2000 report prepared by the Organization of African Unity's International Panel of Eminent Personalities concluded that "we can be certain that almost all females who survived the genocide were direct victims of rape or other sexual violence, or were profoundly affected by it".".


MTraven, you will, we can trust, tell your children about how you personally demanded that America's 1994 failure in the Rwandan genocide be investigated by a "Truth Commission" and that those Americans who were responsible for this horrible betrayal of American treaty obligation and American heritage were brought to justice. You Mtraven could not rest because of the US's failure to abided by the rules of civilized nations in Rwanda in 1994.

You will course explain to your children why the genocide to 1,174,000 people and the brutal rape of between 250,000 and 500,000 women and girls is almost as EVIL as water boarding three genocidal illegal combatants for as much as two minutes at a time.

4/26/2009 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Mike:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but why does someone as bright (spiritually and intellectually) as you waste a moment of energy on someone as hopelessly opaque as McCraven? I'm truly curious.

4/26/2009 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

(Feel free to email me if it's a secret.)

4/26/2009 06:37:00 PM  
Blogger Mike O'Malley said...

I'm testing an argument. The consequences of Clinton's failure to act provides an (disgusting) interesting contrast to the waterboarding of three terrorists. MTraven in effect gave me a opportunity to do a test run as he did recently with the Nancy Pelosi rift.

I can't say that either theme elicited an engaging response from MTraven or any other commenter.

4/26/2009 08:02:00 PM  
Blogger mtraven said...

M-O-M: Considering that the last time I gave a perfectly reasonable response to one of your challenges I was met with a barrage of hysterical, insulting nonsense, I really don't see any good reason to take the bait a second time.

4/26/2009 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Mike,

This was it for me: I asked MT at 12:28pm Bob’s question from his post of the same day:

“It's very easy to play this game with other people's lives. What these people have to ask themselves is whether they would waterboard a terrorist to save their own life, or their child's life.”

You can check my comment at 12:28pm and Bob’s post to see that I did not edit his, mine or here.

At 5:40 PM MT responded:

“A number of you are asking me to answer a stupid hypothetical question about what would you do if your daughter was tied to the railroad tracks and the only way to save her was by electrocuting the genitals of this handy Arab, or something like that. There are about a dozen things wrong with that question…”

As you can see, MT did not answer Bob’s question. Further, but greatest among many other striking things, MT changed the question to fit what he also knows to be torture.

I might also add that I do not think he is aware he did this.

MT,
I don’t mean to talk this way in front of you as if you are not here and don’t exist. I’m sorry I called you crazy. I shouldn’t have used that word because I don’t feel the way most of the general public does about mental illness. It’s even difficult to use the term mental illness, as people seem to have only one extreme picture of what it can be. There are many degrees. And if there is no shame in having diabetes, there should be no shame in having anything wrong with anything else in your body, especially if it’s the part running the show. I want you to know that I hope you get some help. Why don’t you contact Bob by email.

I hope that was alright, Bob. I may be being naïve here, but in case I’m not...

4/26/2009 10:14:00 PM  

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