Friday, September 26, 2008

Gods, Kings, Heroes, Men, Clowns, and Chaos

In my opinion, if the western world should ever lose its religious moorings -- which is well on the way to happening -- it will be the end of the western world. I would put it this way: the West is the only hope for the world; America is the only hope for the West; the conservative movement is the only hope for America; and a proper understanding of religion is the only hope for the conservative movement.

As our founders realized, the whole existentialda is rooted in the perpetuation and renewal of the universal values embodied in our Judeo-Christian heritage. It is no coincidence that in the writings of the founders, 34 percent are to the Bible (nearly 1100 out of 3154; cited in Novak).

Thankfully, in this enlightened day and age, we have mental giants such as Bill Maher to explain to us that the Founders were a gang of credulous fools for relying on an arbitrary compendium of primitive fairy tales to found a nation.

No wonder the United States didn't survive. If only the ACLU had been around at the time, they could have set the Fathers straight, and inculcated them with Marxist values after first informing them that "Founding Fathers" was sexist and offensive. If our Founding Androgynes and Metrosexuals could only have seen a pre-screening of Religulous, their eyes would have been opened. Who knows, perhaps they could have even prevented our civilization from being destroyed by global warming hysterics.

To cite one superstitious -- not to mention, appallingly ethnocentric -- idiot by the name of John Adams, "I always consider the settlement of America with reverence and wonder, as the opening of a grand scene and design in Providence for the illumination of the ignorant, and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the world."

This arrogant, Jew-loving neo-con tool of the Israel lobby also wrote that "I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations." The Jewish people preserved and propagated "to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the greatest essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization." Amazing. This clown sounds like he could be Sarah Palin's speech writer.

At any rate, in each step of my little scheme, you will notice that the left is the Adversary, as they not only devalue and undermine the classical liberal values upon which America was founded, but they also denigrate the West in general. And they obviously hate God and are at war with religion.

Now, if my little schematic is true, then everything hinges upon God and religion. For example, I don't suppose for one minute that democracy or capitalism in and of themselves create decent and wise people, or are even capable of perpetuating the conditions for their own survival. There is certainly nothing sacred about democracy, which is just as likely to bring about a tyranny of stupidity, or to propagate the weak and vile Last Men of the left -- or the demagogic politicians who flatter and seduce them -- who are happy to barter away their freedom (and therefore, humanness) for the pseudo-security of a large and intrusive state.

Unlike Perry, I am not a monarchist, but I can certainly appreciate his point. Of course it would be preferable to have a wise leader who combined and balanced the attributes of wisdom and mercy, intellect and action, discrimination and justice, heart and mind, contemplation and discernment.

In short, who wouldn't want the be led by the archetypal Perfect Man, whose intrinsic authority radiated like the central sun? To recognize such a man would be to spontaneously bow down in service to him, whether it be in war, commerce, education, art, whatever. To be in his presence would warm the heart and illuminate the mind, and give force to whatever inchoate virtues one possesses. It would make the brave man more courageous and self-sacrificing, the wise man more eager to impart knowledge to others, the artist more desirous of transmitting celestial beauty through song, color, or word. He would loosen the strictures of the ego with the mere force of his presence, simultaneously merciful and severe.

They say that George Washington was such a man, which is why we no longer celebrate his birthday. Likewise, Lincoln.

I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.


It reminds me of one of the recurring cyclical themes that informs Finnegans Wake, which Joyce borrowed from the philosopher Giambattista Vico. In his New Science, Vico argued that civilization develops and declines through a "recurring cycle (ricorso) of three ages: the divine, the heroic, and the human," or the ages of Chaos, Gods, Heroes, and Men, followed by another age of Chaos.

I suppose the question for us is whether we are at the end of the age of Men and only just entering the age of Chaos. If that is the case, then the economic and political crises of the day are truly only the opening strains of a precipitous descent into Dark Night. Place your bets on a great depression and terrorists obtaining nuclear weapons.

Alternatively, if we are already in the age of Chaos, one would look for signs of a new religious revival, only at a higher level on the ascending spiral, a la my book, which of course playgiarized both Joyce and Vico, so that the whimper of our present age of wimps will end in a new bang of Superior (but freakishy humble) Men, or a democracy of souls worthy of democracy.

For the man of the left, this will appear as an oppressive tyranny of truth and virtue, from which he will run like a man on fire. It is in this context that we should understand the Atheistic Idiot movement led by the inglorious likes of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and the rest of the flatland dolts who wish to evilangelize their spiritual inadequacy to the susceptible masses.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.


Now, regarding the ontological status of time as it bi-sects politics, Novak writes that the Founders "did not believe that time is cyclical, going nowhere, spinning in circles pointlessly. They believed that history had a beginning and was guided by Providence for a purpose."

Of course, our Founders lived in the age of Heroes, so perhaps they can be excused for not foreseeing the Age of Men, followed by the Age of Leftist and Atheistic clowns and Maherons. In other words, organismic time can never be a straight line. Rather, it must be spiroidal, or a sort of creatively destructive "learning curve" which goes through phases of death and renewal, catabolism and anabolism, or what Bion called PS<-->D. You don't even have to know what PS<-->D stands for, since it is intended to be a sort of existential algebraic abstraction anyway. The point is, as I put it in my book, in order to ascend spiritually -- whether individually or collectively -- some disassembly is required.

Now. Now what? I have no idea. I'm just free-associating again, and here I am at a hyperdimensional crossroads. I could take this post in one of any number of directions -- over, under, sideways, down -- or even end it right now and say "to be continued," even though there is a fifty-fifty chance I never will.

Hmm. I never really got around to the point I wanted to make at the outset of this post, which has to do with the type of religiosity I envision, as we transition from the Age of Chaos back around to a new Age of Gods. This comes back to the very essence of the Raccoon projeKct, which is to speak to that remnant of spiritual seedlings who are beginning to sprout beneath the soil of this age of chaos and darkness. You, know, to gather the lost tribe of Raccoons by using the internet to establish a mycelial astralnautwork of meshrooms or menschwombs able to grow and even glow in the dark.

Terence McKenna once said that there were two possible mushrooms that await man at the end of history-- either the mushroom cloud of atomic annihilation, or the mushroom of Amanita muscaria. I don't think we need to take him literally to know that he wasn't just being psilly.

What are the conditions that will allow the soil of this global neural network to facilitate interconnection and compliexification? Let's go back to our superstitious founders, and see what they had to say about our pneumanautical adventure through the colliderescape of time.

According to Novak, they generally felt that time "was created for the unfolding of human liberty, for human emancipation.... Time was created by a God who 'humbled himself,' by reaching down to dramatize full human potentialites by 'providential signs' among the human beings He had created." As such, history "is a record of progress (or decline), measured by permanent standards, God's standards, as learned and tested by long experience." Prior to the arrival of the Jews, everyone believed in cyclical time, and no one believed in progress, but "for Jews and Christians, by contrast, history is heading somewhere new: toward the New Kingdom of God."

So, this is why America could never be governed by a monarch. Rather, it must become a democracy of divine Kings -- of upright "pontifical men" -- or else descend further down into a new Age of Chaos ruled by an anti-coonfederacy of dunces named Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and Dean.

The past has an objective existence in the present which lies in the future beyond itself... Cut away the future, and the present collapses, emptied of its proper content. Immediate existence requires the insertion of the future in the crannies of the present. --Alfred North Whitehead, Adventures of Ideas

86 Comments:

Blogger River Cocytus said...

I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.


Get out the spiritual artillery and call St. Barbara to the guns!

9/26/2008 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Ray Ingles said...

As our founders realized, the whole existentialda is rooted in the perpetuation and renewal of the universal values embodied in our Judeo-Christian heritage.

It is possible to be right for the wrong reason.

(I'm still curious about the question I asked a couple days ago, how people here would characterize the difference between "veneration" and "religious veneration".)

9/26/2008 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Absolutely brilliant, Bob.

9/26/2008 09:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob wrote a thunder 'n brimstone kind of sermon today. One thing I thought to comment on:

"This comes back to the very essence of the Raccoon projekt, which is to speak to that remnant of spiritual seedlings... to gather the lost tribe of Raccoons."

The question that pops into my mind is "and then what?" Let us say the lost tribe is at last gathered and all raccoon eyes and ears raptly focused on...what?

Forming a voting block? A Militia? Necessarily action will devolve into the same channels used by the non-raccoons, and a descent into the mud of politics would commence.

Selecting an Ubercoon, a spokesperson, a figurehead, a messiah is of course an option which might lead toward effective and unified action, but once you have one of those the movement would soon descend into the dogmatic morass of an organized belief system. It happens every time.

What I am trying to articulate is that Bob has nebulous longings toward spiritualizing our political leadership (finds it in fact imperative), but I am trying to suss out or elaborate the ramifications and details of same. The devil is always in the details; and so necessaily I must point out barriers in advance.

9/26/2008 09:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whatever "age" of culture we might be entering is of only moderate consequence. The individuals within each age are always of unvarying quality.

The contact between the individual and God is the primary one; the collective or national evolution follows that as a secondary consequence. If many individuals are doing Sadhana, the collective will do Sadhana as well.

Therefore, each god lover should dissemintate instructions on Sadhana to whomever might listen; that is the best and only political action to be done. All else is expedient and emphemeral.

Raccoons should therefore not klatch among themselves too too mcuh; that is "preaching to the choir." Rather, each coon should select one or more susceptible non-coon targets to influence. It sounds creepy, but if you want political progress that's how it can be effected.

A centralised/organized "Raccoon" movement is probably not an efficient way to move forward.

9/26/2008 09:55:00 AM  
Anonymous jwm said...

anon:
Apparently you haven't been added to the Raccoon PAC e-mail list. We do, indeed have a powerful political movement going now with nearly seventeen members! (eighteen when Dupree is sober)
We have action alerts and everything, just like Code Pink!
Yesterday, the Whittier, CA chapter had a big meeting, and I was there! As soon as we get another member here in Whittier, the movement will have grown by 100%! Granted, the Raccoon movement is small, but we're growing, and our influence is spreading. Why, some of the most famous people in Hollywood are among those who have yet to hear about us.

JWM

9/26/2008 10:09:00 AM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Yes, so far we have "dens" in almost 20 small-to-medium sized communities, consisting of no less than one person, and who celebrate all our sacred holidays. Coming up next: The Feast of the Imaginary Murphy Bed.

9/26/2008 10:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Nick said...

Brilliant post, definetely agree with chaos to gods, to heroes to men. Yet I am still very unconvinced of your premise that the conservative party holds the remaining thread of dignity in this country. I mean most of them are or were engaged in what amounts to little more than a giant pyramid scheme to scam their country men of their bank accounts.
What I don't get at all is their worship of continual economic growth. That is after all the reason we are seeing the financial blowout now. Do you honestly think Jesus could even stand to look at the putrid materialistic mess that we call our free economy. True we have figured out how to free people from lives of indentured physical work, but we still worship material false gods both right and left.

If we are to be saved it will be something new that comes from the ashes of our current chaos. Certainly it will have elements of traditional conservativism but it need not come from th econservative party who has clearly also fallen with the age.

9/26/2008 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

I think he means it is only possible from that standpoint, since he qualifies it with 'and conservatism can only be saved by...'

Only the conservatives actually still believe in the free market - even if the free market must be backed by a critical mass of men with a level of virtue to function.

We started undoing ourselves at the beginning of this century by turning our educational facilities into factories. Learn rote. Be obedient. Make money. Retire. This is the result. It was a materialist turn for the establishment of education, and it has been a great spike driven into the hull of our ship.

Will we sink? Well, everyone sinks eventually.

9/26/2008 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Nick -- Not sure where you're getting your information, but the current crisis was mostly caused by government regulation, not free markets, specifically, the Community Redevelopment Act, which mandated banks to make loans to people who did not qualify for them. As a result, the sub-prime market went from 2 percent to 30 percent of Fannie & Freddie.

9/26/2008 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And at risk of championing the obvious, never confuse conservatives with Republicans.

9/26/2008 10:38:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Yes, that's what I've heard as well, Bob. I blame our sloppy education (in tune with my last comment) for this incumbent issue. While it was specifically that which caused our current housing bubble/pop, in some ways I think we're cruising for a bruising in general, these days.

9/26/2008 10:39:00 AM  
Blogger Captain Ramen said...

The question that pops into my mind is "and then what?" Let us say the lost tribe is at last gathered and all raccoon eyes and ears raptly focused on...what?

Forming a voting block? A Militia? Necessarily action will devolve into the same channels used by the non-raccoons, and a descent into the mud of politics would commence.


But isn't this what our Founding Fathers did? First a voting block, and when that didn't work, a militia - and it's been descending into the mud ever since. Humanity may perpetually backslide, but 10 steps forward and 9 steps back is still progress ;)

9/26/2008 10:56:00 AM  
Anonymous slockhart said...

Nick, there are many competing evils in Caesar's world, One that would rank at the top of the list is the doctrine of altruism. As Bob pointed out this present crisis is a result of governmental altruism. "From each according to his ability to each according to his need" is a belief that will destroy any government and any religion.

9/26/2008 11:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Slockhart,
Agreed. Curiously, our current president is lock-step with the socialist solution, as usual, as he continues to demonstrate his true colors on a Statist power grab and tax-payer spending. Obama has nothing on him.

9/26/2008 11:19:00 AM  
Anonymous George Cooney said...

JWM, I am standing my guard here in Hollywood, sir. More Coons are planted in various places throughout the valley as well. All seems to be going down as predicted...

9/26/2008 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

By the way, I ventured out into the world of politics today. It seems that much of Palin's pastor's (or former pastor?) comments on 'warfare' (i.e. spiritual warfare) are being misinterpreted. I'm recalling that the early Church used to kick non-communicants out of the service after a certain point, so that those who didn't understand what was meant by 'I will slay all of the wicked out of the land' would not report the Christians for sedition. Nowadays, it would appear that someone is going to have to explain the Psalms for everyone...

9/26/2008 11:30:00 AM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Clown Spoken Here, Chaos Coming Soon!

Stumbled across this:

"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to."

from: Our Culture, What's Left of It by Theodore Dalrymple

PC may have more to do with our current "financial crisis" than anyone realizes. Check out Ann's latest.

9/26/2008 11:36:00 AM  
Anonymous Nick said...

Gagdad I agree with your assesment people were lent money for homes they had no buisness buying. But why? Bankers had to grow regardless of wether the true market would support it. Why was this allowed? Corruption of the money policy and in this country it probably started all the way back in the 1930's.

My point and it is poorly made is that we have confused free markets to mean unlimited growth and prosperity for all. That just isn't the case clearly not everyone can own a home and 2 SUV's.

9/26/2008 11:50:00 AM  
Blogger The Popemobile said...

Well, Bob, I tried. A direct result of your telling us we should all be our own lightning rods.

9/26/2008 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

"For example, I don't suppose for one minute that democracy or capitalism in and of themselves create decent and wise people, or are even capable of perpetuating the conditions for their own survival."

Yes, so you'd think ... this egalitarian pack of misfits should have been a snap to corrupt and destroy... problem was, those Americans always believed in what Religion was about and from the start they were thirsty for Education, and then those pesky founders kept saying things like, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

What was a budding tyrant to do? Ah! Of course! Destroy Education - not by prohibiting it, but by corrupting it and spreading it everywhere... rip all that is Good, Beautiful and True out of it, turn it into something that is mind numbingly boring, unenlightening, even better, make it into something that is useful,... even required, to get a job! Yes! Turn Education into something that isn't focused upon making you worthy of liberty, which doesn't educate, but uneducates, and that people have to have to get ahead! Perfect! Then the fools will destroy themselves! And clamor for the opportunity!

Brilliant! Wormwood is sure to get me that promotion with this plan!

"They say that George Washington was such a man, which is why we no longer celebrate his birthday. Likewise, Lincoln."

So... so... painfully true.

9/26/2008 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

aninnymouse said "the lost tribe is at last gathered and all raccoon eyes and ears raptly focused on...what?

Forming a voting block? A Militia? Necessarily action will devolve into the same channels used by the non-raccoons, and a descent into the mud of politics would commence.
"

I guess I never fully appreciated how asstoundingly stupid an annonymous could be.

Wow.

9/26/2008 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

What a wonderfully written article on the reasons for the lunacy of the Hollywood left, at American Thinker.

9/26/2008 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

A Political "Solution" to the Current Financial Crisis? (Part 1)
by Thomas Sowell


"Back in 2002, the Wall Street Journal said: "The time for the political system to focus on Fannie and Fred isn't when we have a housing crisis; by then it will be too late." The hybrid public-and-private nature of these financial giants amounts to "privatizing profit and socializing risk," since taxpayers get stuck with the tab when high-risk finances don't work out.

Similar concerns were expressed in 2003 by N. Gregory Mankiw, then Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to President Bush. But liberal Democratic Congressman Barney Frank criticized Professor Mankiw, citing "concern for housing" as his reason for supporting Fannie Mae. Barney Frank said that fears about the riskiness of Fannie Mae were "overblown.""

9/26/2008 12:38:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

From Bob's American Thinker link:

"...steady your gag reflex with a surge of compassion..."

This is a skill a genuine Raccoon will want to master!

9/26/2008 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Robin Starfish said...

...some disassembly is required.

Shiva's hard at it while our elected offalicials apply smiley-face bandaids when amputation is called for.

It's hard to see any men or women of real character anywhere near the District of Columbia right now. With their 'solutions' we're in for a shitstorm.

On a local note, I visited my local credit union today for a withdrawal. The first question asked was, "Do you need more than $2,000? That's the maximum daily allowance right now."

WTF? Apparently I'm being conditioned to not be too attached to my own money.

Clowns to Chaos, coming to a bank near you.

9/26/2008 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Long comment ahead; consider yourself warned.

For those who advocate (not unreasonably, I might add, were it not for the sheer scale of the problem) that Fannie and Freddie, et al, should simply be cut off and made to suffer the consequences of their actions, I'd like to toss in a couple observations DH made last night (and until we talked about it, I was also in favor of letting them be hoist upon their own petard).

For a bit of background, DH is a bankruptcy specialist. Specifically, corporate bankruptcy. And he's very good at what he does. So while he freely admits to not knowing a tremendous amount about the current situation (in fact, nobody seems to, which should be pretty alarming in and of itself), I give his opinions in such matters a fair amount of weight.

His first impression, based upon the workplace rumor mill (and with all due respect to Mr. Sowell, I wonder now if it's quite as much hype as I'd wish to think), is that something very very big and very very bad almost happened last week. So bad that Congress is in a mighty big hurry to come up with a solution now. Not in a few months, not after endless debate - this is more of a HFS!!! kind of reaction. Abject terror. And there's probably a lot more going on than we hear about in the news, the kind of secret information which Congress hears and results in world-changing decisions.

The sheer, massive size of this issue is the real problem. Cutting F & F loose is not the same thing as, say, letting Walmart go belly-up. It could literally destabilize the country so much that the banking system collapses, partly helped by the kind of panic reaction where people rush to take their money out of the banks. This situation wouldn't be analogous to plucking out an eye for causing us to sin; rather it would be like slitting our own throats because the neck causes us to sin.

If the banks collapse, America collapses. And as Bob already observed, if America goes... well, it won't be good.

Forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors...


Our bankruptcy system, if you think about it, is a literal and legal interprtation of this part of the Lord's Prayer. Back in the day, if you couldn't pay your debts you were thrown in jail, there to continue being unproductive and not paying your debts. Really, it was a lose/lose situation. The bankruptcy system, while far from perfect, affords people and businesses the opportunity to come to an agreement whereby everyone, hopefully, comes out with a more hopeful situation than the one with which they entered. By its very nature, nobody is likely to get what they want, but they are more likely to get what they need. And for what it is, it seems to be fairly successful, certainly on the individual level.

Applied, to F & F, the options right now seem to be either to come to an agreement, one which is bitterly distasteful to most everyone, or harden our hearts and invite a potentially pyrrhic victory.

Do I know what's best in this situation? Not a chance. But if the bailout happens, I might be just a little less bitter, with all of the above in mind. And conversely, I might feel just a tad less self-righteous if the bailout is turned down (even though I'd dearly love to see this foolishness get spanked).

Interesting times...

9/26/2008 02:57:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Yes, it seems that the government cash-infusion will just have to be seen as analogous to the sun that shines on the wicked and virtuous alike...

9/26/2008 03:08:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

And lest anyone think DH is happy about this idea, either, he started by saying he hates the whole situation, and that the bailout feels sickeningly like socialism. It's just less likely to be utterly devastating. Also, my above comment is really just a very rough sketch of my understanding, based upon the simplified version he gave me (the specifics are far, far above my paygrade), so as usual take it for what it's worth.

9/26/2008 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

On a completely unrelated note, scrolling down the eternitable I noticed the song by The Staples Singers.

In my guitar book, that's one of the beginner songs toward the front, but it's spelled wrong:

"Will the Circle Be Unborken?"

As Taranto says, everything is seemingly spinning out of control...

9/26/2008 03:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Looking back on it, it seems to me that things have been spinning more out of control for you folks ever since Pops Staples left the planet back in 2000. He was a stabilizing presence.

9/26/2008 04:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

We should all look so good at 84.

9/26/2008 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

-My atheistic pal & I have had a rather fruitless debate re the personal religiousness of our Founding Pops this week; so seeing today's topic I sent it to him [this blog irks him as much as Limbaugh and Coulter which is a LOT [he also digs Maher, who was improbably Ann's old b-f??]
Anyhoo, here's his de-otro-planeto-from-us take on today's OC:

"Thankfully, in this enlightened day and age, we have mental giants such as Bill Maher to explain to us that the Founders were a gang of credulous fools for relying on a bunch of ancient fairy tales to found a nation.

He sure as hell never said that! Just the opposite- amazed at their foresight: the only way to allow diversity is to give preference to no one.

Now, if my little schematic is true, then everything hinges upon God and religion.

The Western way is the only way is one arrogant man's opinion.
The argument stands only because thats the way it was for European History.
Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Hindus, and Scandinavians would disagree, as would the Taliban, Communists, and Mormons.

The error he is making is confusing choice and reality
X-tian culture and belief has gotten us this far, we cant abandon it! That has no bearing at all on whether God exists or Jesus was invented as a story. Nor does it prove that His Way is the Only Way.

The atheist view is, ZERO evidence supports any of this- that is a bald fact, uncolored by any desire for a preferred system.
The logic that follows is, culture should include that truth, otherwise
your foundation can only be subject to cracking if its based on a lie.
Look at Catholicism- facts made very clear in the bible include:

The enemy is Rome
you only get to God thru Jesus
Faith cant be bought
blessed are the poor

Not only did they ignore all that,
but restricted education, free speech, and other religion
and went with Crusades, Inquisitions, and auto da feys to enforce...

THAT'S your European tradition!
I for one, subscribe to the belief that we would have had a man on the moon by the year 1000 if the Dark Ages hadnt happened."

ps: "What you guys don't know
about Bill Maher, because you don't actually watch him: Yes, his standup is obnoxious and smarmy, and his misogyny gets uncomfortable.
BUT- his panel show is the best, because he gets big names and
goes out of his way to get opposing views...he hates it when his audience applauds liberal talking points,
and famously went up into the bleachers to personally eject lefty protesters.
He is the ONLY open atheist with a TV show, and will defend Ann Coulter to the death."

9/26/2008 04:23:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Heh - no kidding. I'm hoping I take after my grandma in a similar way. I'm probably too Irish, though.

9/26/2008 04:24:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

GE:

Why are you friends with such a coarse buffoon?

9/26/2008 04:53:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Not that there's anything wrong with it. I just don't want to hear what goes on when they try to "think."

9/26/2008 04:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Bill Maher is the only open atheist with a TV show? Please. I can name a dozen direct descendants of Satan himself who have TV shows. In fact, some of them run entire cable network operations.

9/26/2008 05:01:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

>> . . . it (time) must be spiroidal, or a sort of creatively destructive "learning curve" which goes through phases of death and renewal . . . <<

Aye, and one such death was that of the loss of certain spiritual/intuitive capacities, at least in the Western world. This gave rise to the age of reason, a step toward individuation and democracy. Ideally, our original spiritual/intuitive capacity will be renewed, but will be married to individuation and reason.

Time might be cyclical in a sense, but the spiral ascends and (let us pray) we ascend with it.

Which brings me to the Chicago Cubs. You may have noticed that there seems to be something different about the Chicago Cubs. No, I don't mean they are winning, have a winning record, etc. They've been there/done that - '69, '84, '89, 2003, indeed, last year. I mean the Cubs now seem to have some *methodical* aura about them, dare I say, a professional, workman-like air. Ever since I can remember, Cub teams, good and bad, have had something of a glamour aura about them, usually have had at least one superstar. Wrigley Field itself was a perpetual zoo, a beer factory. All that seems a bit modulated now.

Of course, all aforementioned historical Cub attributes always accompanied the dreaded, but always expected spectacular meltdown. Indeed, the spectacular meltdown was very much a part of the Cub glamour. Lovable losers, the tragic hero spurned by fate, etc.

Questions - if what I sense is correct, if in fact the Cubs have somehow alchemically changed, if they are at least going to win the National League pennant, is this simply a matter of the cycle coming around again? (the Cubs had great, pennant-winning teams in the 1930's) Or might it be that this is indeed the Age of Chaos in which a sadsack organization such as the Cubs improbably, impossibly manages to rise to the greatest heights? An Age of Hideous Anomalies Rising To The Fore?

OR . . . . what if this is also a dawning age of Increased Psychic/Spiritual Potentiality in which the desires of Cub Fandom actually affect a change in the fortunes of their ballclub? Consider the BoSox and their two recent world titles. Might that not have been the result of Boston fans collectively, psychically transforming the previously tragic fate of their ball club to that of ultimate triumph?

Odd thing is I'm only part Chicago citizen now - why should I care? Dunno, other than to say this all factors in ontologically-speaking.

It all comes down to - are the Cubs going to undergo yet another of their fabled late-season swoons?

It would appear the very destiny of our nation, nay, of the world, hangs on the answer.

9/26/2008 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Will: nice "theory," but the road to the Fall Classic runs through a little obstacle called ManRam. Good luck with that.

9/26/2008 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Bear in mind that this is the 50 year anniversary of the Dodgers' move to L.A., and the 20 year anniversary of their last title. The stars are aligned.

9/26/2008 06:14:00 PM  
Anonymous joseph said...

plus bob, the dodgers have torre and ramirez, the two prophets of the apocolypse.

9/26/2008 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Yes, perhaps I was being too cryptic. ManRam is Manny Ramirez. And most gratifying indeed that the Yankees chased Joe Torre out of New York, and failed to make the playoffs for the first time since he was their manager. Might be fitting if the Dodgers play the Mets in the first round, so Joe can make a triumphant return to New York.

Also, pretty amazing that Torre hit .363 in 1971. And he didn't get any leg hits, that's for sure.

9/26/2008 07:55:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

Well, Dodger Blue does have a storied tradition, and yes, there is Manny the Force of Nature.

I'm just saying - and I'm being objective here . . OK, not totally because there is this part of me that actually likes to see the Cubs lose at the wire, why? because as long as there is the CC we have a reminder that material life is finite, that No One Gets Out Alive, time is fleeting, etc., etc., and also because the Cubs toasted me one time too many and I hate them for suckering me - but I'm saying if we are truly living in different times, if the old paradigms and archetypes are crumbling, then a major if not THE major signifier of said change will be the ultimate success of the Chicago Cubs.

Laze and gennelmen, place your bets.

9/26/2008 08:10:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I have to question that, because such an event would represent the full immamentization of the eshcaton, or the total collapse of spacetime -- like traveling faster than the speed of light, returning to earth, and watching yourself be born. True, mother nature is a mad scientist, but some things just weren't meant to be messed with by man. Leave it alone, Will. Leave it alone.

9/26/2008 08:31:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie, I don't know what the solution is - at least not one which has any chance at all of being implemented.

I know what the source of the problem is though, this was a problem caused and created by gov't decreeing policy and regulation of financial decisions for political reasons.

To determine with pinpoint accuracy 'who is responsible' is near impossible, though it's easy to point out that Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Chuck Schumer have been on record saying that concerns over F & F are overblown, and we have to keep making homeownership available to those not clearly able to afford it - but they could only do that, because Dem's AND Rebub's accepted the existence of quasi private/gov't organizations, they both accepted the idea that gov't SHOULD be telling the financial industry how to make loans and to whom, and on and on and on.

I doubt that the Gov't taking 200 to 700 billion of paper money to settle debts as it sees to be most sensible, is a garauntee that at least 20% of those funds will dissapate into unproductive areas and programs and pockets and contribute in no way to any solution.

Unless the 'bailout' removes the restrictions on the production of new wealth - loan mandates, sarbanes-oxley, capital gains, etc - there will be no recovery.

This is not a bailout, this is not even a robbery - that's been done already (there's already been 70+ billion non-existent (backed) dollars pumped into the economy - Gold made its biggest one day jump in 'value' this week for a reason), this is a Getaway.

The holdup's been happening over the last 20+ years, the vaults been blown and emptied... this week has been about the bad guys getting away with our cash and diverting our attention to fallguys, while the crooks blend into the foreground.

It's a bad thing. The stock market crash of the '20's was a bad thing also, but that didn't cause the great depression. The gov't fixes and corrections caused and sustained the great depression.

I'm seeing a lot of rhyming going on here.

9/26/2008 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

ge said "The Western way is the only way is one arrogant man's opinion.
The argument stands only because thats the way it was for European History. Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Hindus, and Scandinavians would disagree, as would the Taliban, Communists, and Mormons."

Did you notice that that was incoherent and stupid?

9/26/2008 08:53:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

>> . . . such an event would represent the full immamentization of the eshcaton, or the total collapse of spacetime . . . <<

Yes, YES . . . you see it, too. And perhaps . . . perhaps a Cubs triumph would not merely "represent" the full immanetization of the eschcation, the total collapse of spacetime, but would actually be the *triggering agent* for the full immanetization of the eschaton, the total collapse of spacetime.

That and the activation of the Large Hadron Collider, of course.

9/26/2008 09:03:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

"Bear in mind that this is the 50 year anniversary of the Dodgers' move to L.A., and the 20 year anniversary of their last title. The stars are aligned."

Go Dodger Blue! Go Dodger Blue! Go Dodger Blue!

9/26/2008 09:04:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

This post by Anthony Esolen was very good.

http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2008/09/theres-a-big-gr.html

9/26/2008 09:06:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

"...like traveling faster than the speed of light, returning to earth, and watching yourself be born."

I did that. Take my word for it... it was not a positive experience. Acceleratin'...definitely. Positive...not so much. I'm a shadow of my former (?) self.

Just sayin'.

9/26/2008 10:33:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

Good debate tonight. Learned a couple things too. Finally figured out why Obama thinks it’s ok to talk with Ahmadinejad. I never really looked at it from the O’s eyes before. Here, try them on. Wait a minute.. *click* You see, it’s just words to him. That’s enough *click* I don’t think it crossed his mind that anyone might think he would actually mean anything by them. I could tell they didn’t mean anything to him. Why should they mean anything to me?

You see, I’m willing to change. Another is, I think he may make an ok president “’n stuff” in about 30 years. On one precondition: he changes his know-it-all attitude right now and speaks like an adult in the presence of other ones. I mean before tonight I thought it would take at least a hundred years but never considered preconditions.

I might change the angle that McCain is insensitive to veterans, though. Oh… and laughing while his superior is soberly discussing deadly serious issues and your naïveté. That’s embarrassing.

…and all this talk about “your war is stupid, but my war is gonna be great, John” “’n stuff” and ramping up in Afghanistan, and launching strikes into Pahkistan. What a hot head. I didn’t know he was such a warmonger. I mean, I like it ’n all, but that’s gonna be a tough sell to his anti-war crowd, I think.

9/26/2008 10:42:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

It's like taking one swing and slam-dunking the eight ball all the way into the end zone. Yep, that's just what it's like. Scoring, that is.

I just had a non-sequitor sitting here, so I figured- hey- use it while it's still useless.

JWM

9/26/2008 11:03:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Van, I absolutely agree with you about the causes; frankly, the fact that we're in this situation at all just burns me up. And I think changes should be made that would keep the government from meddling in such affairs in the first place; it's a barn-door-post-horse-evacuation method, I know, but it might help to prevent such retarded policies from happening again in the future. Not that I expect any such sensible legislation is going to happen in my lifetime. (*snork* sensible legislation - isn't that an oxymoron?)

But in the meantime, this is the situation we have right now. Lots of people saw it coming. Lots more buried their heads in the sand. But like the Iraq war, the responsible thing to do right now, whatever your thoughts on the origin of the situation (again, if we were to pretend that leftists are responsible), is not to argue about how we got there. It is to act in order to get the best possible outcome out of the situation we have. When you've got a raging inferno on your hands, you don't stand around speculating about the arsonist or the crappy building materials, you put out the fire. The investigation and preventive measures just have to wait.

Frankly, I hope I'm wrong, by the way. I rather hope that the bailout is rejected, and that letting them suffer is the best thing to do, and the country will be the better for it; I admit it, I'm a little cold-hearted and callous that way. I like to see stupid people who make stupid and far-reaching decisions get penalized for that. But OTOH, do I really believe that's the best we can and should do right now? Really? Well, based on the conversation I had last night, no. I'm with Lileks on this one:

"...if it’s a choice between Liquidity with Troubling Implications and A Firm Stance On Sound Ideas that Incidentally Throws Everyone Into Super-Harsh Bankruptcy A-Go-Go, well, I cave."

And of course, I admit I may be totally wrong here. Again, what's really troubling about all this is that even the people who should know what's most likely to work don't have a clue. It could even be that we're so screwed right now, nothing will save us. I honestly don't know. I do know that it's an insanely complex situation, and that hacking through this Gordian knot may not be a viable option, no matter how appealing it sounds.

Also, at least a few financial advisors (again, bankruptcy specialists whom DH sometimes works with) are crying "hang 'em!" Not for any moral reason. They just want the guaranteed work. That tells me a lot right there. At least one of them is voting for Obama, for the same reason. The sharks sense a pending feeding frenzy, which is more likely to happen under certain circumstances. Me, I prefer to see the sharks work for their food.

9/26/2008 11:03:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Will, if you're waiting on the LHC, it looks like we might have another year of reprieve at least. So maybe next year will be the Cubs' big win, signifying the beginning of the end.

9/26/2008 11:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, the CRA has really very little to do with the current crisis. I mean hell it factors, but you're missing a big picture thinking that something like that is gonn'a cause this whole mess. Remember the housing bubble was by a wide margin affecting middle class areas that sit outside what the CRA covers.

I mean, it really starts in the late 80s, but the bigger underlying problems start early 90s with sub-prime lending(genius), then for some reason they felt banks shouldn't be regulated on securities and repealed the Glass-Steagal act, and then the housing boom that came from the bullshit programs that made it easier for irresponsible people to get into homes, and THEN what nobody ever talks about is how the big 5 were given exemption to the 1:12 debt ratio, to 1:30, and guess what? 3 of them are now out of the game.

So, really, most of the major factors in this crisis are because of loosened regulations, lack of following regulations, or exemptions from the regulations. Deregulation is the primary problem, and finding one increase in regulation that had a negative impact and claiming that's the problem is like complaining that an elephant broke your TV with it's tusks and saying you blame the tusks. The fact that an elephant is in the house isn't really a problem for some reason?

Big picture, the CRA is a distraction, and probably the easiest problem to fix. You can't undo the losses in the market(not even by injecting however many billions of dollars), but you can change the legislation and stop handing out those ridiculous loans.

9/27/2008 12:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh by the way, the mortgages that have posed the risks to the banks are still standing. While there is still debt owed to those banks, they'll continue to pose a risk, and will still result in losses.

The bailout is essentially like that cartoon with the character taking a bucket and scooping water out of his sinking boat. We're not fixing the hole here.

9/27/2008 12:18:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

So I have heard, Julie, thanks. Plenty of time to prepare for a Cubs victory and/or an invasion of demon-monkeys who will come flooding through the dimensional hole that the LHC punched through spacetime. One way or the other, it is quite a wonder.

The really big wonder, in case you didn't notice, is that I used the phrase (Bob's) "the full immamentization of the eshcaton, or the total collapse of spacetime" THREE TIMES in one comment and made it look rather natural, non?

9/27/2008 12:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Unless the 'bailout' removes the restrictions on the production of new wealth - loan mandates, sardines-oxley, capital gains, etc - there will be no recovery."

Whoa, you realize Sarbanes-oxley was authored in response to Enron correct? I mean, you think that removing restrictions that were put in place to prevent something like Enron is going to help?

And I don't really see how capital gains would change anything, but if it did I'd be afraid to experiment with that during this crisis. It'd be like, "Hey buy buy more money in the market," But then, "Sell sell we aren't being taxed for these" so I'd be concerned with any sudden changes to the volatility due to the unknown effects how what people will do with that sudden burst for every single broker of extra money in each trade. That could be crazy, maybe after the crisis though.

9/27/2008 12:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unless you can somehow say that Enron's collapse was because of regulation, but definitely it was scandal, just like adelphia, tyco.. I think there were quite a few more but SOX was definitely a response to a serious problem and not just some controlling regulation out of paranoia.

9/27/2008 12:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually a wiki page has it all, pretty good refresher. It really doesn't have anything to do with profits but rather accountability for it. Punishment, accounting practices, compliance. Yadda yadda. I don't see how that kind of regulation restricts the market other than to make it more honest.

9/27/2008 12:56:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

aninnymouse said "So, really, most of the major factors in this crisis are because of loosened regulations, lack of following regulations, or exemptions from the regulations. Deregulation is the primary problem..."

With such economic ignorance, regulator envy and general stupidity bubbling that close to the surface, I can understand why you crave anonymity.

9/27/2008 06:08:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie said "I do know that it's an insanely complex situation, and that hacking through this Gordian knot may not be a viable option, no matter how appealing it sounds."

Agreed. And even safe here in my chair, I won't pretend to have the answer. But I do resist the "do it now!" sales tactic being used, I don't go for the "Fire!" analogy, those that are going to crash, are going to crash, with or without the bailout, the difference is that one will crash and be picked through by those looking to salvage some value, the other will be picked through, giving cover to some incompetents and scapegoating others while looking to salvage some value, gather some political capital and earn some favors.

We have a disaster on our hands one way or the other, the question is how will it best be minimized and put behind us as quickly as possible.

My suspicion is that the out and out bailout is going to slow down the impact, but increase its force and extend its duration, while the sound bytes I've heard of the house Repub's plan, will do the same, but to a lessor degree.

I'm less worried about the disaster, which is unavoidable at this point, than the 'solutions' which will be controlling matters for many years to come, and setting even deeper precedents for how to do things in the future - both on the part of Gov't, and on the part of politicaly corrupt bid'nessmon.

We shall see...

9/27/2008 06:31:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie, watching Harry Reid on C-Span... I prefer whichever solution that puts people like your husband, and the sharks, directly into the fray, as opposed to the one which puts punks like Reid in a position of choosing which bit of spoils should be sent your husbands way, and which the sharks way.

9/27/2008 06:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

aninnymouse said "So, really, most of the major factors in this crisis are because of loosened regulations, lack of following regulations, or exemptions from the regulations. Deregulation is the primary problem..."

"With such economic ignorance, regulator envy and general stupidity bubbling that close to the surface, I can understand why you crave anonymity."

Actually, I explained why? Do you care to counter those reasons are would you rather continue to be an idiot and prance around spouting that we need to get rid of "Sardines-Oxley." Yes Van, quite right, I'M somehow the idiot when you don't even know what the hell it's called. Take a step back, listen to the experts, because when you call me an idiot you're pretty much calling a great majority of economic experts idiots. And the experts I'm referring to are the ones who called it 3 or 4 years ago. Yes, apparently all of them just got lucky in predicting a housing bubble.


Van, when you can actually say something that makes sense or sounds like you've actually read into it a bit I'll be offended when you call me an idiot, but for the love of sensibility don't call somebody an idiot without actually proving it.

9/27/2008 08:16:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

I hope you're right, Van. In regarding the hype, normally I'd agree with you 100%. When the media screams "fire," I tend to relax, while keeping an eye out for an impending flood. When DH calmly mentions that he smells smoke, I start looking for hotspots.

9/27/2008 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Hmm, I would say 'sloppy deregulation'. It's a common talking point of would-be-socialists to blame problems that are due to bad legislation on deregulation itself. Regulation itself encourages a different problem, one of course that is more favorable to such people. Or, perhaps one they are entirely blind to. So you're saying that 'deregulation' CAUSED the subprime mortgages? Subprime mortgages were stupid to begin with. The problem was stupidity, not deregulation. Sloppy, indeed.

9/27/2008 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

I think what triggered the anonymous was the feeling that we're blaming 'poor people who can't afford houses getting houses' for the current crisis. A fairly well read response, but a modus that is entirely emotional.

9/27/2008 08:44:00 AM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Two rational items on NRO regarding this financial mess & House Republican plans:

A Paulson-Cantor Plan is a win-win

In Too Deep

9/27/2008 09:12:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

aninnmouse said
"Van, when you can actually say something that makes sense or sounds like you've actually read into it a bit I'll be offended when you call me an idiot, but for the love of sensibility don't call somebody an idiot without actually proving it."

It's always fun when someone unable to even get up the nerve to come up with a nickname, let alone a real one, wants to criticize anybody. Truly your courage knows no bounds.

And I've not only read it, I've had a minor hand in implementing the tracking it requires, and heard the panicked inquiries "... will this retrieve everything?"

"..."Sardines-Oxley." Yes Van, quite right, I'M somehow the idiot when you don't even know what the hell it's called..."
Wish I could claim credit for your spelling, I kind of like that, but... um you do realize that it was you who typo'd that don't you? Scroll up. Take a look. Take a bow. Moron.

"because when you call me an idiot you're pretty much calling a great majority of economic experts idiots"

Oh, Definitely!

Obviously you haven't even reached an understanding of the Free Market, and WHY it is only harmed by regulatory controls, so rather than try to educate the uneducable, here's two quick hits from google for you that are more on your pedestrian level of being able "see" its problems... the ideas and principles for that apparently being above your head.

Undoing SOX's Unintended Consequences
"Debates about the Sarbanes-Oxley Act continue, but one thing is clear: its implementation has created unintended consequences. As every Member of Congress knows from many constituents, it has caused a tremendously expensive amount of paperwork and bureaucracy. And the smaller the company, the greater the proportional burden that has been imposed."

and Jamie Olis's Tragedy, And Ours
"The Sarbanes-Oxley law features a mind-boggling list of new rules and penalties, including prison sentences for CEOs who certify financial statements that later prove incorrect. On Sunday, The Independent, a British newspaper, reported that the new chairman of Shell faces "potential criminal charges" that could mean he will "spend 20 years in jail" in a controversy surrounding oil reserves."

If you have an interest is learning something called 'principles', you can work your way up to it by starting with (free online) Fredrich Bastiat's "Economic Sophism's" (pay special attention to "What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen"), or The Law, or if you've managed to earn some money, use it for something useful, and buy Thomas Sowell's "Economic Facts and Fallacies".

9/27/2008 12:00:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie said "I hope you're right, Van. In regarding the hype, normally I'd agree with you 100%. When the media screams "fire," I tend to relax, while keeping an eye out for an impending flood. When DH calmly mentions that he smells smoke, I start looking for hotspots."

Julie, I'm really not trying to argue with you... I really don't know what's the best plan out. The situation we're in, and the plans they are promoting are so mixed and unprincipled... I know what should have been done, and what type of Gov't policy we should have had... but the fact is, that's not what IS our situation.

I don't know what to recommend. But I do definitly smell smoke too.

9/27/2008 12:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmm, considering all I did was copy and paste and I did spell it correctly without it being corrected automatically by my spell check and you can edit your posts... but whatever you say van.

Then this:


Undoing SOX's Unintended Consequences
"Debates about the Sarbanes-Oxley Act continue, but one thing is clear: its implementation has created unintended consequences. As every Member of Congress knows from many constituents, it has caused a tremendously expensive amount of paperwork and bureaucracy. And the smaller the company, the greater the proportional burden that has been imposed."

YES because that is so much worse than what happened. Wow you're fucking stupidity knows no bounds.
You would rather have nothing than something with limits. Moron.

I'm not intent on listening to some dumbass try and inject politics into economics because so far we know how that ends up. You really think you know this shit... You naivete far outweighs your stupidity, honestly believing that those regulations are an unnecessary hindrance when you have no idea what banks try to get away with. Honestly do you even remember what happened at Enron? I mean, really, what you just said you'd have to ignore it completely. What a fucking moron. Its like giving somebody a gun, getting shot, taking the gun, forgetting the problem and giving them the gun back. Man I'm really really astounded by your stupidity and ability to just forget shit.

9/27/2008 03:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually Van, prove a point. I dare you to actually come up with a reason why the regulations that were put in place after enron wouldn't lead to another enron. I dare you to say that companies can be trusted... even though we know full well they have not been trustworthy in the pat.

I dare you. I guarantee anything you say will be nonsensical and not supported by past lessons. What you're saying is regulation is bureaucratic. What you want is financial anarchy.

9/27/2008 03:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, yah, I guess I shot down your arguments that I don't know the economy because I didn't know those principles, but in reality I know those principles are complete BS. You sir basically agree with the fact that a company collapsing by corruption is just a fluke, when it happens over and over and over. Yes, you bought into bullshit points.

I suppose you also believe the laffler curve, even though real world studies find that to be complete bullshit as well.

9/27/2008 03:16:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

ninny, your language expresses the sum of your thoughts... so well.

And you not only remember all the way back to Enron, your capacious knowledge even stretches back to Laffer... wow... all the way to, what, the 80's...? what an historical perspective. Any clue who the even bigger fool was that he derived that from (not that there's a point of diminishing returns to raising taxes, but that it's ok for gov't to impose taxes wherever it feels like)?

Read the links I gave you.

"... try and inject politics into economics because so far we know how that ends up..."

The proregressivist idea that politics and economics are separate, is how we've wound up in the mess we are in. I've got another link for you, where you can read the links behind the ideas that the Founding Father had in mind when they wrote the constitution, and how they applied to the creation of that remarkable document. Perhaps you'll eventually understand why James Madison (he had something to do with the U.S. Constitution... but that was a bit before Laffer) wrote
In its larger and juster meaning, it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.
In the former sense, a man's land, or merchandize, or money is called his property.
In the latter sense, a man has a property in his opinions and the free communication of them.
He has a property of peculiar value in his religious opinions, and in the profession and practice dictated by them.
He has a property very dear to him in the safety and liberty of his person.
He has an equal property in the free use of his faculties and free choice of the objects on which to employ them.
In a word, as a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights.
Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.
...
Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own.

According to this standard of merit, the praise of affording a just securing to property, should be sparingly bestowed on a government which, however scrupulously guarding the possessions of individuals, does not protect them in the enjoyment and communication of their opinions, in which they have an equal, and in the estimation of some, a more valuable property.

More sparingly should this praise be allowed to a government, where a man's religious rights are violated by penalties, or fettered by tests, or taxed by a hierarchy. Conscience is the most sacred of all property; other property depending in part on positive law, the exercise of that, being a natural and unalienable right. To guard a man's house as his castle, to pay public and enforce private debts with the most exact faith, can give no title to invade a man's conscience which is more sacred than his castle, or to withhold from it that debt of protection, for which the public faith is pledged, by the very nature and original conditions of the social pact.

That is not a just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty, is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest. A magistrate issuing his warrants to a press gang, would be in his proper functions in Turkey or Indostan, under appellations proverbial of the most compleat despotism."


See if you can find that separation of politics and economics and Individual Rights in there. Good luck with that. Read through the site... or remain the ignorant thug you are. Makes no difference to me, I'm not anonymous.

"...you can edit your posts..."

(psst... comments can't be edited... nowhere to look to but yourself for your confusion.)

Thanks for the laughs. Moron.

9/27/2008 04:17:00 PM  
Anonymous son of a preacher man said...

I missed a SOX debate! damn it! Please explain to me how filling out more parper work is going to make my CEO more honest.

9/29/2008 08:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Firstly...

"The proregressivist idea that politics and economics are separate, is how we've wound up in the mess we are in..."

What the fuck did I just say? Can you not fucking read? I said that's exactly why we're in the mess we're in. YOU say that ignorance is the cause, I say the cause is the tie itself. If we were ignorant of it, we wouldn't try to regulate it now would we?

LOL ok so perhaps me just copying and pasting it spell-check did decide to automatically make Sarbanes into Sardines. Not a problem for me then.

So, and thanks for the laughs yourself, you obviously don't even know where I'm coming from.

And you mock me for remembering Enron? As if that's justification for your belief that capitalism should equate to economic anarchy?

I didn't say that Capital gains shouldn't be rid of either, I said it would add volatility to the market that wouldn't be tactically advantageous for the time being.

Way to say I'm a little more keen to remembering the important stuff, but unfortunately for you that doesn't make your beliefs work any better, because we do have actual examples that prove you, well, wrong.

Now instead of arguing me, you've made it apparent you're just arguing reality. Now THAT is a moron.

9/30/2008 06:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"See if you can find that separation of politics and economics and Individual Rights in there. Good luck with that. Read through the site... or remain the ignorant thug you are. Makes no difference to me, I'm not anonymous."

Didn't say that economics aren't tied to politics, I said specifically that's the problem. And also, you still didn't provide the benefits of companies collapsing like Enron. I'm guessing that you no longer favor common sense. Of course if we can find something wrong with legislation then we need to stop regulating right? Right? Right now I honestly wish I could afford that ridiculous mentality.

9/30/2008 06:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I missed a SOX debate! damn it! Please explain to me how filling out more parper work is going to make my CEO more honest."

The whole point of SOX is it isn't leaving it up to the CEO, and if the CEO is lying it'll be harder to get away with it, especially with independent auditors.

9/30/2008 06:55:00 AM  
Anonymous son of a preacher man said...

"The whole point of SOX is it isn't leaving it up to the CEO, and if the CEO is lying it'll be harder to get away with it, especially with independent auditors."

Well speaking from personal experience what sounds good in theory does not quite play out in the real world.

9/30/2008 07:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Well speaking from personal experience what sounds good in theory does not quite play out in the real world."

Yes and we've had so many Enrons since. Theoretically we would think a company would be honest with its finances. This isn't an issue of reality vs theory, its about which is worse. Perhaps you don't understand the big picture on this though. Even if theoretically the laws wouldn't prevent a company from being able to do what Enron did, it still makes it harder to do, and more likely that any illegal activity will be caught earlier. And if it isn't caught it will most assuredly be suspicious when a company is trying to circumvent specific laws mandating transparency, which would inevitably lead to an investigation which would lead to investors pulling out of stock before losing big. The problem with Enron was nobody knew until it was too late.

9/30/2008 07:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*Which is worse as in governance vs no governance over accountability.

9/30/2008 07:52:00 AM  
Anonymous son of a preacher man said...

"This isn't an issue of reality vs theory, its about which is worse."

Yes, as long as sounds good and looks good who gives a shit if it actually works.

9/30/2008 08:53:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yah, because there have been so many collapses since Adelphia. Listen are you gonn'a honestly keep arguing that theoretical problems with regulation are worse than known consequences of not having regulation? Because if that's the case theoretically the entire government is red tape and anarchy really should work on its own, free market? Man we should have free government too.

9/30/2008 12:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess I have to also put a reference that I'm referring to collapses relating to what SOX covers, which really there hasn't been one I can think of.

9/30/2008 12:04:00 PM  
Anonymous son of a preacher man said...

Here's an idea why doesn't the government actually enforce the laws it already has created. Instead of creating more regulations to stifle the already law abiding citizens?

Also I am not talking about theorectical problems with SOX, I am talking about the real problem that having someone fill out needless paper work will some how make one more honest.

9/30/2008 01:05:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

aninnymouse said "And you mock me for remembering Enron?"

No, I mock you for having the vocabulary of an 11 yr old trying to sound like a 15 yr old.

Without the sense of either.

You have no grasp of principles let alone economics, and gullibly believe in the magic wand of the regulator to fix, and then assign blame for the problems created by its fixes, and their promise to fix the problems they created with even more fixes, and you believe you have a right to force those fixes upon the rest of us.

You are fascist fodder, and they are thankful for you and your kind.

At least you're good for a laugh.

9/30/2008 09:07:00 PM  

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