Thursday, June 19, 2008

Darwinists and Their Cosmic Delusions of Adequacy

What a beautiful summary by reader Magnus Noorwegenkøønen. I wonder if the fact that English is not his first language makes his pronouncements all the more fresh and powerful? What's the word, Jeeves? Astringent. That's it. Tart and tangy. He reminds me of a Thelonious Monk piano solo; or maybe a Jackie McLean alto solo [it also occurs to me that if one is translating a thought into another language, the thought must come first and organize the words, whereas native speakers are likely to "be spoken" by language rather than truly using it to convey thought]:

"Materialism is not based on unbiased observation, but rather requires an active -- even intense -- EXPLAINING AWAY of much of everyday observed reality. Consciousness must first be explained as a property of neurons, conscience must be reduced to a kind of programming by parents, and love to a way of spreading and protecting our genes.

"Yet direct observation shows that consciousness and the invisible world are as real as the material world. We could just as easily explain the material world as an illusion made by our consciousness.

"Just like the physical world exists prior to our exploration of it, so do the higher worlds. This is easy to prove to anyone who goes there. But for those who wish they were mere animals, no proof is enough to convince them otherwise."

There is so much meaning packed into these words, that I scarcely know where to begin. Let me therefore start with a bobservation that was waiting there in my head when my eyes opened this morning, as it may or may not be relevant to the discussion: on Darwinist grounds, I can well understand why the flower is attractive to the bee. But why is it beautiful to man? After all, I am not attracted to a female chimp in heat with a swollen pink rump.

Scatter, of course, informs me that I really haven't lived, so long as I remain in this state of aesthetic ignorance. But try as I might, I can't see the situation from his point of view. Frankly -- and I would never tell him this -- but if I were forced to choose, I would prefer the unswollen monkey rump. Does that make me a "gay monkey?" I have no idea. I don't even want to think about it. Nevertheless, I'll get back to this topic later, for our access to the realm of beauty is a key that unlocks many cosmic mysteries.

Now our materialist troll -- and he is a genial troll, so I don't intend to bash him -- but our troll gave us the courtesy yesterday of responding to Petey's query of how and why a mere Darwinian machine would have a "passion for truth." Petey was hoping for something a little less self-refuting, but what can one expect of a materialist? It's a wonder they can think at all.

Anyway, he explained it as follows: Truth is "that which is in accord with reality," or "that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." As for why he cares about this, it is because he wishes to have a "useful map," presumably of those things that "don't go away," i.e., reality. But his passion is actually reduced to purely utilitarian grounds, as the ultimate purpose of the map is simply to be "useful." He didn't say what the map should be "useful for" -- and this gets a bit tautologous -- but presumably it should be useful for "mapping the things that don't go away," which for a Darwinist comes down to reproducing. To be honest, this is very close to what Scatter believes, although he also enjoys smoking cigars and watching Ellen. Go figure.

Now, the first thought that occurs to me is that everything within the scope of our senses "goes away." Nor am I the first monkey to make this depressing observation, as it was central to the Buddha's metaphysic. In this way of looking at things, you might say that all is impermanent with the exception of the observation that all is impermanent -- which is like one of those ju-jitsu koans or Jew-jitsu mishnahs that are intended to "provoke an ontological breach in our carapace of ignorance," as Schuon so accurately describes it.

Along these lines, I realize that many readers object to my compulsive upunishantics, but I have learned that there is a method to Petey's modernness, in that he is always trying to break through the codpiece -- ouch!, I mean carapace -- of language in order to provoke a guffah-HA! experience. Yes, there is a fine line between this and mere tomfoolery, but trust me, Petey is not just pulling your leg. Rather, he is tugging at your soul, so to speak. He wants you to laugh your way to the blank, which is to say, extinguish the ego, even if it is only for as long as the laughter lasts. But if you could only realize that your life is a big joke, then you would never stop laughing. This is what it means to be a stand-up cosmedian. I am not the first:

Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! Hahahaha, Mister Funn, you're going to be fined again! But Cry not yet! There's many a smile to Nondum, with sytty maids per man, sir, and the park's so dark by kindlelight.

Anyway. Let's stay focused here. Back to Magnus's point: Direct observation shows that consciousness and the invisible world are as real as the material world. We could just as easily explain the material world as an illusion made by our consciousness. Just as the physical world exists prior to our exploration of it, so do the higher worlds. This is easy to prove to anyone who goes there. But for those who wish they were mere animals, no proof is enough to convince them otherwise.

By the way, there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding that I somehow object to natural selection, despite the fact that my book relies upon it to explain certain features of reality. It's just that I do not worship it as the ultimate explanation of our humanness, as it doesn't even come close to being sufficient to account for our entry into the invisible realm of "permanent features" alluded to by Magnus. In my book I did my best to circle this square by integrating the lower truth of natural selection with the higher truths of metaphysics.

Now, if one of these truths "has to go," then naturally, it would have to be natural selection, being that it is a very "transient" truth that only applies to a narrow slice of reality. As such, it can be seen how a certain kind of obtuse troll could regard this as obscurantism on my part -- as if, say, I would be rejecting natural selection in favor of young earth creationism, or some such nonsense.

No. I am simply following along the lines laid out by our troll, which is that I have a passion for truth, i.e., I wish to conform my being to that which is permanent and unchanging, and which will never "go away." And one reason it will never go away is that it was never created to begin with -- certainly not by natural selection, which by definition can only account for transient things.

If you will open your New Testavus for the Rest of Us to page 88, you will see another aspect of the book that has somehow escaped the notice of the the non-Coon world, and that is its simultaneously continuous and discontinuous basis, which -- like its circularity -- is intended to mirror and even "demonstrate" one of those "permanent truths" of reality. Please stay with me here, because this is important. This has nothing to do with "selling the book," since I still haven't earned a cent from it, nor do I expect to in my lifetime. Nevertheless, I hate to sound as if I am tooting my own horn. I'm sure 'Coons will understand.

The full title of the book is One Cosmos Under God: The Unification of Matter, Life, Mind, and Spirit. As with most everything else about the book, this is intended to be "holographic," as it were. First of all, who could deny that the cosmos is One? Even scientists make this a priori assumption, even though no scientist has ever "seen" the cosmos, nor can it even be conceived or pictured in any scientific basis (for example, the quantum world is literally unimaginable; or, if you can imagine it, you haven't understood it). For one thing, as soon as the scientist investigates an aspect of the cosmos, he has drawn a line down the middle of it, even though he knows in his heart that the cosmos remains One on pain of his being unable to ever arrive at any general laws that apply throughout the cosmos.

Now, there are several obvious ontological discontinuities (e.g., matter-life-mind-spirit) in the cosmos; or let us say that they only appear discontinuous when looked upon under the aspect of scientific reductionism, or from "the bottom-up." Bear in mind that this is not a criticism; rather, it is just a built-in assumption of science. But scientists typically confuse method with ontology, so that without even knowing it, they naively construct an ontology in which a pseudo-property is created by their own method. In other words, they reify and project their own abstraction of the One back into the world, so that it appears to exist "in reality."

As the biologist Richard Lewontin describes it, "the properties we ascribe to our object of interest and the questions we ask about it reinforce the original metaphorical image and we miss aspects of the system that do not fit the metaphorical approximation." Thus, for example, when our troll suggests that he has a "passion for truth," what he really means is that he has an addiction to his metaphors. After all, if humans are cut off from the spiritual plane, they will find a graven image to worship on some lower level, thus endowing the relative with qualities of the absolute. You can't really be cut of from God, silly!

Similarly, "trouble arises," according to Robert Rosen, when we attempt to divide the universe into two parts so as to satisfy some property (such as "objectivity"), and end up with "some consequent of the property back into one or the other class as defined by the property." Again, materialists almost cannot help doing this. For as Magnus mentioned, I cannot think of a philosophy that is more abstract and artificial than materialism, and which requires us to explain away so much concrete reality.

Back to page 88. You will notice that the chapters of the book are simultaneously continuous and discontinuous, in that they are "discrete" and yet "overlap" in mid-sentence. For example, as biology transitions to psychology -- as we exit the world of the senses and Life opens out to Mind -- we "cross that radiant upper threshold and are witness to....

...BOO!!! another startling explosion -- or perhaps, implosion -- this time into a subjective space that was somehow awaiting the primate brains that had to learn to navigate, colonize, and eventually master it."

You see? It is just as Magnus says: Just as the physical world exists prior to our exploration of it, so do the higher worlds. This is easy to prove to anyone who goes there. But for those who wish they were mere animals, no proof is enough to convince them otherwise.

For -- to quote the Coonifesto -- "Just as the first singularity was an explosion into (and simultaneous creation of) material space-time, and the second singularity a discontinuous 'big bang' into the morphic space of biological possibility, this third singularity was an implosion into a trans-dimensional subjective space refracted through the unlikely lens of a primate brain" (apologies to Scatter).

Again, just as there are "permanent things" for the senses -- e.g., heat, cold, hard, soft, loud, quiet, etc. -- and permanent things to the rational mind -- e.g., mathematics, logic -- there are clearly permanent things on the spiritual plane, and it is precisely these that religion attempts to reveal to us and help us "conform ourselves" to. Does it always do so perfectly? Of course not, any more than our senses cannot be fooled, or the application of reason is capable of exhausting the Real.

Nevertheless, there is no question whatsoever that Revelation models these permanent metaphysical truths adequately, and that is all we can ask.

95 Comments:

Blogger QP said...

Petey, I'd like for you to meet this modern day, graphic coscomic who wants to Real.ly crack you up.

The post modern materialist freak show: "It Started in Florence, not Naples."

6/19/2008 08:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Aquila said...

QP,

So it's Adi Da Samraj now??? How many times has that fat pervert changed his name?

6/19/2008 09:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Petey said...

I hardly think so. What a bizarre question.

6/19/2008 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Ray Ingles said...

Might as well quote here what I said to Magnus: That's just it. I believe in such a world. I just don't think it's constructed the way and of the materials you think it is.

Bob talked a while back about phase spaces, strange attractors, and such. Simple phenomena on one level that display or develop - in many senses literally - infinitely complex structures when looked at in a different way.

Being human is like that, and because people are human they will experience and understand things in a common way. Religious tradition does have profound insights on how to life a fulfilling life, on how to make sense of life. But that doesn't mean that it's right about everything, or even about some very central, important things.

People have been fundamentally wrong - just plain wrong - about how their own bodies work. For most of human history, in fact. (Bleeding as therapy? The brain is a cooling system for the heart? Female 'circumcision'?) Doubtless we're still wrong about a lot of it. Having intimate lifelong experience with something is not a foolproof guard against error.

Then there's being right for the wrong reason. Storing cheese with meat is a really bad idea absent pasteurization and refrigeration. A rule that has the effect of mandating separate storage of cheese and meat (like, say, the Jewish dietary laws) will have good effects regardless of the rationale. The same for a rule that encourages cleanliness, even if nobody knows about germs. Why can't there be psychological rules like that, too?

Mathematics is an example of "an imaginary persistent world that has lasted for thousands of years without any central server or any power supply," too. That doesn't mean one has to be a Platonist about it.

(And yes, evolution can produce extravagances that are even, overall, counterproductive, like the peacock's tail. Arms races can do that - and there's a certain amount of evidence that a cooperative, social species develops cognitive faculties to cope with remembering alliances and policing betrayals, and then more brainpower evolves to get around that, and then... I'm not claiming that religion is like that, just that it's not a priori impossible.)

6/19/2008 10:34:00 AM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

So Karl Rove is the mastermind behind the Obama curtain? Who'da thunk?
It's funny how Dems are never resposible for their flawed judgements or shady associations, it's always racism, sexism, etc., but never ideology.
I guess for people who can't look past physical traits, political materialism is alive and well.
At least I now know the definition of coonified.

6/19/2008 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

I was always a little chocolate around the center.

Oh well!

6/19/2008 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. Ever since the beginning of recorded human history humans everywhere have this god thing. Do you have any hope that we will ever wise up and just get over it?

6/19/2008 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. If there is a God, what exactly do you require Him to do to prove to you that He is there?

Careful now.

6/19/2008 12:12:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. I don't remember you ever saying exactly why it that you persist in returning to this little den of 'coons. Is that you can't help yourself? Some kind of biological imperative?

6/19/2008 12:16:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. What kind of music do you like, and why?

6/19/2008 12:17:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. Do you like yourself? If so, why?

6/19/2008 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. So?

6/19/2008 12:20:00 PM  
Anonymous rey said...

So Rey Me?

6/19/2008 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Doh! Ray! Me!

6/19/2008 12:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Smarvel said...

"If there is a God, what exactly do you require Him to do to prove to you that He is there?"

There's so little logic in that question that I don't even have to ask if you're a lib. A God that proved himself to mankind, therefore nullifying faith and forcing people to live good lives because they KNEW there was a God?

A God who thought it was wise to simply let everyone know he existed would be a God so stupid only a lib could approve of him.

6/19/2008 12:40:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

smarvel: I think you're catching on.

6/19/2008 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Although, God is certainly not just an idea. A revelation is not just 'an idea', but an experience. Otherwise, it would be just something you thought up at some point that happened to be correct. Maybe.

The faith that comes by hearing is important, but the faith that comes by seeing proves itself much greater, and revelatory on a level beyond what we can comprehend.

People demand that God show them something to prove that he exists. The common response, which is correct as far as it goes is, God will not have his hand forced to reveal himself on your terms, or that 'faith' requires a leap, or that you would not believe it if you saw it.

However, we should note that if we do want to prove that God exists we can do it - perhaps not scientifically, but in a sense there is a method by which it may be done.

The scriptures tell us, "Blessed (happy) are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

6/19/2008 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Ray Ingles said...

Well, Nomo, I've been busy, but I'll try to answer a few questions quickly.

Do I think humanity will ever 'get over' the 'god thing'? I dunno. People are innately superstitious, seeing patterns where they aren't and so forth. I'd be happy to settle for people being a bit more skeptical, so that things like this or this are less common.

As to proof of God, I'd certainly not ask for anything more than Saul of Tarsus got, really.

More later, if the kids give me time.

6/19/2008 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

So, Ray. Hook, line, AND sinker?

That'll do, Ray, that'll do.

6/19/2008 01:17:00 PM  
Anonymous christopher said...

Trying to prove God is a fools game. However, sometimes a person will have an experience so profound the question comes to rest and life becomes a very different thing. At that point the argument of is/is not becomes moot and "what do I do now?" becomes the question.

At about this point in following you guys, I almost pray for layoff so I can write as much...

6/19/2008 01:23:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Faith afterall is evidence of the unseen.

Not to mention the very creation itself.

6/19/2008 01:24:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Smarvel-
God does let everyone know.
The problem is that many people just don't choose to see or hear.
Kinda like you.

And please, if you're gonna accuse us of bein' liberals get it right.
We are Classic Liberals.

6/19/2008 01:29:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Ray said:
"As to proof of God, I'd certainly not ask for anything more than Saul of Tarsus got, really."

Umm, ya might wanna do a bit more homework about what occurred after that little-hello-encounter on the Damascus Road before ya throw that one out there so glibly.

6/19/2008 01:41:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Kudos to you, Magnus, for a packing so much metaphysical goodness into so small of a space! :^)

6/19/2008 02:03:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

"Trying to prove God is a fools game."

To prove God is easy by long term meditative injunctions towards a deeper Subjectivity, faith being a general term for spiritual practice. What's not easy is Matter's (or inertia's) resistance to being transformed. Schuon: "religion is here to transform those human beings who are willing to allow themselves to be transformed, but on the other hand religion must take men as they are, with all their natural rights and their collectively ineradicable faults..." That is, when the atheist ask God in the after life "why did you hide so well from me?," as B. Russel once retorted, he might just hear in response a loud and in your face--"WHY DID YOU HIDE SO WELL FROM ME?" We could just reverse the problem of God's existence to, "prove you own damn existence!? Moron! And go all the way! Stop fiddling around with an ungrounded infinite. Proving yourself is for those with balls, and that’s the game of wisdom, I believe.

...

Ray, you unavoidably evoke the false infinite every time you make a statement. Pretty sure.


Hegel:

The infinite in its kind is not such in respect of all possible attributes; but the absolutely infinite is that to whose essence all belongs that expresses an essence and contains no negation.” In the same sense Spinoza distinguishes in the nine-and-twentieth Letter (Oper. T. I. pp. 526-532) the infinite of imagination from the infinite of thought (intellectus), the actual (actu) infinite. (there's the great chain again. Lower mind-imagination, higher mind-created intellect, and over mind--mind approaching uncreated intellect, or Spirit, traditionally) Most men, when they wish to strive after the sublime, get no farther than the first of these; this is the false infinite, just as when one says “and so on into infinity,"

6/19/2008 02:35:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

(Ximeze) "ya might wanna do a bit more homework about what occurred after that little-hello-encounter on the Damascus Road".

Yep. And then the fun really began.

6/19/2008 02:43:00 PM  
Blogger Ray Ingles said...

Smarvel - C. S. Lewis said that faith "is the art of holding onto things your reason has once accepted", like not panicking and running away when the anesthetic mask comes down before surgery. You decided that surgery was necessary, and that this was a competent surgeon, so despite very human fear, you stick with what you've concluded is the right course of action.

I can buy that kind of faith. I can't buy 'faith' as 'believing in something without good evidence, or in spite of it'.

And Ximeze, if it's true, I want to know about it. Heck, if it's true, it'd be worth the cost, right? (Um, yeah, four years of Catholic high school. I'm not unfamiliar with the Bible.)

6/19/2008 02:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Coonified:

You are correct about his evocation of Hegel's bad infinite. At the same time, it is necessarily a "false absolute" that afflicts the materialist -- basically, the conflation of horizontal endlessness with vertical eternity, thus rendering coherent thought impossible. I confer upon you the indulgence rejected by the ungrateful Wog.

6/19/2008 02:53:00 PM  
Anonymous christopher said...

Trying to prove...

Meaning by traditional philosophical rules. When a person changes the rules then lots of things are possible. I too allow myself the use of subjective and intersubjective categories for my own satisfactions, but I do not pretend that philosophers in general, nor scientists, nor even the general public will accept specialized language like this. You guys call yourselves racoons, and develop special language inferences and in-group usages, then refute the more general writers. That oddly is the same game that others often play.

Philosophers who try to construct world systems do this by coining special terms too. It makes what we call in the estimating game (engineering) comparing apples to oranges. This is a common difficulty when it comes time to award contracts.

Actually the spiritual masters basically tell stories at this point because reaching the heart is more important than reaching the mind, and reaching the soul, well, then you need stories with power, stories that move of their own accord.

6/19/2008 02:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

You don't know what you're talking about.

6/19/2008 03:20:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

"At the same time, it is necessarily a "false absolute" that afflicts the materialist -- "

Good eye petey! In other words, there's hell to pay in the after life. Squirrel nut Zippers! I didn't know about them until Julie mentioned 'em.

Hell's (more precisely, death, which is what the bad infinite is as experienced subjectively. And death is not a thing that just happens when our physical body "croaks," Ray, but is something that's happening all the time as a constant tension between the ungrounded infinite and the absolute, or a false absolute (Ray and all egos) and actual infinite--a scary thing to confront, which is why the demons go around in circles so much.

6/19/2008 03:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

By which I mean, there is no "specialized language" here but the perennial truth. And to suggest that feeling is more important than thought is to place wishing above knowing and subjectivity above objective doctrine.

6/19/2008 03:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Yes, Coonified, you might say that hell is "existence," whereas heaven is "essence."

6/19/2008 03:26:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

"At the same time, it is necessarily a "false absolute" that afflicts the materialist -- "

Good eye petey! In other words, there's hell to pay in the after life. Squirrel nut Zippers! I didn't know about them until Julie mentioned 'em.

Hell's (more precisely, death, which is what the bad infinite is as experienced subjectively. And death is not a thing that just happens when our physical body "croaks," Ray, but is something that's happening all the time as a constant tension between the ungrounded infinite and the absolute, or a false absolute (Ray and all egos) and actual infinite--a scary thing to confront, which is why the demons go around in circles so much.

6/19/2008 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

...and shudder.

6/19/2008 03:29:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

Whoops. How did that second post happen? I've been having problems with the blogger.

...

What I was saying is that when Ray's--or egos in general-- Thanatos ripens, he'll have to eat it .

6/19/2008 03:39:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

WTF!

Thanatos and eat it!

There we go.

6/19/2008 03:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Materialism is the Satanic Eucharist.

6/19/2008 03:52:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

Oh, and I just noticed:

Hell to pay from the above duded link.

6/19/2008 03:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Or spiritual coprophagy, if you want to get technical.

6/19/2008 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Coonified, your Hell link didn't work either time, either.

Catchy tune, ain't it?

6/19/2008 03:59:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Doh!
Timing is everything.

6/19/2008 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Elephant said...

"Now, there are several obvious ontological discontinuities (e.g., matter-life-mind-spirit) in the cosmos..."

Coffee break - laughing a little...
This reminds me of "Welcome to Mind-head..." in Bowfinger.

End coffee break.

6/19/2008 04:08:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

Petey:

I've thought about that before: I as a material being have to eat and ****; what's beneficial, the essence of substance if you will, is extracted for sustaining and constructive purposes, while what's non-useful at our particular position in cosmic synthesis, is expurgated back to the "lightless materiality."

My body, however, also breaths force: intake comes form the top of the head, and expurgation from the bottom towards earth. Though the two movements--that of material eating and of pranic breathing--are analogous to one another in a way, they really occupy different horizontal places on the manifested vertical scale. Only persons' who have spiritual eaten well can have the sense enough to smell the backed up sewers of a materialist age. It is a kind of coprophagy. The problem is that people get used to the atmosphere, just like folks who work or live near a chicken farm stop smelling the smell after a while. Some even learn to love it. To a person who's in the chicken business, it smells like money. Same with the tenured, in my opinion.

6/19/2008 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Dougman said...

Petey-
Materialism is the Satanic Eucharist.

Was the Satanic Eucharist.

He promises to be a good boy from now on.

Now evil comes from those who own it.

Can it be any other way?

6/19/2008 04:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Emily Litella said...

to Ray






... never mind

6/19/2008 05:04:00 PM  
Blogger Dougman said...

OH and Magnus that was
Awesome!

6/19/2008 05:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Smarvel said...

Christopher: "Actually the spiritual masters basically tell stories at this point because reaching the heart is more important than reaching the mind, and reaching the soul, well, then you need stories with power, stories that move of their own accord."

I agree totally. What you can't get across to materialistic thinkers is that the mind is one thing--the brain another, the latter being a connecting agent more than anything. I started out a Christian, but then found too many logical problems with my religion, my holy books, and church leadership. Then when I was agnostic there were too many problems with materialistic logic never coming close to being able to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. Eventually (if you truly follow the righteous path) you come to a place where you're simply floating in the great sea that is God, and the questions begin to die away, not because they've been answered, but because you've experienced something greater than either the questions or the answers--something ineffable. Logic will only take you to the brink. Perhaps some people don't even need that much logic. In the end logic only provides evidential clues--not proof. I can't even prove the existence of my hand before my face. Empiricism is just a hammock for a coward's brain.

Petey: "By which I mean, there is no "specialized language" here but the perennial truth. And to suggest that feeling is more important than thought is to place wishing above knowing and subjectivity above objective doctrine."

Feeling is more important than thought because thought tends to be based solely on material events, all of which come through distorted channels (as Plato pointed out). Wishing is above knowing because nothing is known. Objective doctrine (sensationalism to put it more distinctly) is simply a study of the unknown conducted under the ruse of an objectivity that doesn't exist and can in no way be proven. It's the way of the simpleton. Phenomenology takes the advanced mind to places sensationalism can't yet begin to grasp (and frankly--does not want to).

6/19/2008 05:07:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

Petey:

I've thought about that before: I as a material being have to eat and ****; what's beneficial, the essence of substance if you will, is extracted for sustaining and constructive purposes, while what's non-useful at our particular position in cosmic synthesis, is expurgated back to the "lightless materiality."

My body, however, also breaths force: intake comes form the top of the head, and expurgation from the bottom towards earth. Though the two movements--that of material eating and of pranic breathing--are analogous to one another in a way, they really occupy different horizontal places on the manifested vertical scale. Only persons' who have spiritual eaten well can have the sense enough to smell the backed up sewers of a materialist age. It is a kind of coprophagy. The problem is that people get used to the atmosphere, just like folks who work or live near a chicken farm stop smelling the smell after a while. Some even learn to love it. To a person who's in the chicken business, it smells like money. Same with the tenured, in my opinion.

6/19/2008 05:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Smarvel:

We are speaking of the intellect, nous, buddhi, or psychic being, not the empirical ego.

6/19/2008 05:15:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Magnus, well put indeed.

"But why is it beautiful to man? After all, I am not attracted to a female chimp in heat with a swollen pink rump.

Scatter, of course, informs me that I really haven't lived, so long as I remain in this state if aesthetic ignorance. But try as I might, I can't see the situation from his point of view"

Lol. I wonder if Scatter knows the Aussie who bought the picasso today for several million? They should get together for some visual and tactile coprophagy.

6/19/2008 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smarvel said "Feeling is more important than thought because thought tends to be based solely on material events...Wishing is above knowing because nothing is known"

nihilism is no answer to materialism... I wonder what you wish you thought about that?

6/19/2008 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

Not sure if it's good or bad news, dear Raccoons, but apparently, the Universe's unification is at hand:
You just have to do the math.

How real is mathematics, anyway? You can't hold math, see math, or touch it. It only exists in the mind. If nature displays math, it is only because we interpret it mathematically in our heads.

We can only explain Math, and come up with all sorts of language for it, but we can't prove its existence except by interpretation.

I want someone to prove to me that Math exists.

6/19/2008 06:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Scatter said...

Van--

The more bulbous the hind, the sweeter the find!

6/19/2008 06:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Smarvel said...

What on earth has nihilism got to do with anything said here?

Revelation 6:14 "The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."

Actually, that does sound like a pretty flimsy bunch of nothing. Maybe it's best not to hang our hats on it. I'm happy to live in the heart of God.

6/19/2008 06:25:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Sorry, but since yesterday is closed for business (hmmm... there's a song in there somewhere...), ray said "Van - I think you need to read a little more carefully. Asserting that consciousness is actually of a different nature than it immediately appears to us is not the same thing as asserting that it's not there at all, in the same way as claiming that the stars aren't affixed to a giant crystal sphere is not the same as asserting they aren't there at all."

Is that a ref to, and excuse for, Dennett’s claim of a deterministic, mechanical consciousness?

Ray, you can claim you have 3 people who depend on you and are living in your basement if you want to... but if those people are plastic mannequins, saying "well, they look just like people to me!", isn't going to save your tax deduction.

Look out for the audit.

6/19/2008 06:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Petey said...

Smarvel:

'Round these parts, there is no higher privilege than Truth. Different dharma. Bygones.

6/19/2008 06:42:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smarvelous said "What on earth has nihilism got to do with anything said here?"

You've already called Nomo a lib... you need to review your cast of characters first, scan the liner notes second, then actually read what other's are saying. Review a few posts & comments. Take a deep breath. It'll help.

Thinking about what your comments would be a plus too - wishing your comments to be sensible, obviously isn't going to cut it.

Nihilism has nothing to do with One Cosmos, but it has everything to do with the foolishness you said earlier. If your thoughts are not rooted in reality, then your 'feelings' are going to be chaotic and psychotic. The 'Wishes' that may arise from that morass, the rest of us will recognize as nightmares. That road you're on is not the road to Damascus.

6/19/2008 06:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Smarvel said...

"You've already called Nomo a lib..."

Yes; and as any schoolboy could see, he well deserved it.

"...actually read what other's are saying."

Good advice, you might want to take it.

"Thinking about what your comments would be a plus too...."

You should have thought of that before spouting off some childish nonsense about non existent Nihilism in my message(s).

"Nihilism has nothing to do with One Cosmos."

No, and please try to remember that.

"...but it has everything to do with the foolishness you said earlier. If your thoughts are not rooted in reality, then your 'feelings' are going to be chaotic and psychotic."

The only foolishness was that entire sentence. There's more truth in fairytales than in your entire outlook. Plato was right to call you a fool. Perhaps he was too kind.

Please spare us all the drama queen snobbishness when you post to me in the future, or take your posts elsewhere. You've already made a patent fool of yourself for tonight. Next time you have no argument to make, you might want to consider keeping silent.

6/19/2008 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Ricky Raccoon said...

That was beautiful, Magnus.

Bob said,

“it also occurs to me that if one is translating a thought into another language, the thought must come first and organize the words, whereas native speakers are likely to "be spoken" by language rather than truly using it to convey thought”

Well, I’m not finished with this language yet so I can’t say. Amazed by people who have another they can operate. I think no matter what, the thoughts come first, or form first, without any words. I’ve been wondering lately if I ever actual use words or hear words, or respond with words when I dream. Anybody else?

6/19/2008 07:44:00 PM  
Anonymous coonified said...

Smarvalous, please spare us all the drama queen snobbishness when you post in the future, or take your posts elsewhere. You've already made a patent fool of yourself for tonight. Next time you have no argument to make, you might want to consider keeping silent.

Good lord. That's like a perfect projection!

6/19/2008 08:02:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smarvel said "Plato was right to call you a fool."

Easy there Euthyphro, I'm old, but not that old.

"Please spare us all the drama queen snobbishness when you post to me in the future, or take your posts elsewhere. "

Oh... oy is going to love this.

"You've already made a patent fool of yourself for tonight. Next time you have no argument to make, you might want to consider keeping silent. "

heh-heh... gotta have a strong appreciation for good comedy.

Your heart seems to be somewhat close to the right place... relax, let your head catch up with you. Again, scroll on down to the Knowa's Archive... browse around through a few posts... if only to recognize who's on what side (and for pete's sake, don't go shootin' at Petey or Cuz.... just sayin').

6/19/2008 08:07:00 PM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Smarvel:
Your handle is new here. Please tell us some things about yourself.

6/19/2008 08:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Smarvel said...

"Good lord. That's like a perfect projection!"

Again, snobbishness is a dis-ease, not an argument, and not something a Christian engages in. If this is all you people have to offer....

And if this Nomo character was being sarcastic, firstly, he shouldn't have been. Hardly a Christian trait. Secondly, only a damn idiot would tell somebody else to go read through tons of other posts to get a handle on someone's "true" character. If they posted like adults with a brain to begin with, I shouldn't have any problem seeing their personality in EVERY post they make.

Act like a fool and you shouldn't be surprised when people see you as one.

In short, stay away from me and I'll stay away from you, and will encourage others to, as well as to keep far from Bob's books. If this is the kind of people he draws, that's a pretty good sign he's not what the world needs.

6/19/2008 08:18:00 PM  
Anonymous rabid racoon said...

"queen snobbishness"--LOL

Smarvel, are you Lady? If so, maybe some Midol?

6/19/2008 08:22:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smarvilicious said "Act like a fool and you shouldn't be surprised when people see you as one."

ROFLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

6/19/2008 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Ray Ingles said...

Nomo - As to your other questions - I didn't say why I was here 'cause no one asked before. I know we've got very different worldviews, and I'm curious to see if it's going to be possible to communicate across that divide. I'm not here to be 'evangelical' or 'deconvert' anyone. Mostly it's like I said at first - if people are going to disagree with me, it might as well be for what I actually believe and not a caricature thereof.

As to music - a little bit of everything, though I find it hard to get into rap or country. A little pop, metal, electronic, classical, even movie soundtracks. Generally I like music for the emotions I find it inspires. It's a way of communicating and sharing emotions and feelings - a whole frame of mind, really - after all.

Do I like myself? Generally, I suppose. I'm far from perfect, but trying's the important thing. I figure it's okay to make mistakes, as long as you try to make sure they are new ones.

6/19/2008 08:23:00 PM  
Anonymous rabid racoon said...

"stay away from me and I'll stay away from you"--LOL

6/19/2008 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smarvelator... just for fun... follow one or two of Nomo's links.

I'd pay good money for a picture of your righteous face at that point.

6/19/2008 08:26:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

smuggle said "If this is the kind of people he draws, that's a pretty good sign he's not what the world needs."

Yeah... 'fraid raccoon's pretty much all have ringed tales and masked faces.

Good by cruel world....

6/19/2008 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Thanks for the laughs smarvel... I really needed that today!

6/19/2008 08:35:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Ray and Smarvel - This top secret message may help you understand.

6/19/2008 10:30:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

Smarvel,

Nomo was asking the below question to an admitted athiest, Ray, who has been here discussing the reasons for his atheism for a couple of weeks now.

Nomo said;
So, Ray. If there is a God, what exactly do you require Him to do to prove to you that He is there?

My guess is that you assumed Nomo was the non believer and not just posing the question as a believer to an atheists perspective. If you had read a few posts back you would have seen the context.

You have been beligerent and rigidly doctrinaire since your original post here accusing Nomo of being a liberal. So, after reading your posts and applying this hard and fast rule;
"If they posted like adults with a brain to begin with, I shouldn't have any problem seeing their personality in EVERY post they make.", I'm thinking hmmmm, that Smarvel is a real ASSHOLE!
Though I do agree with your assessment of Leftists (libs) being the spawn of Satan.

But remember!

"Act like a fool and you shouldn't be surprised when people see you as one."

6/19/2008 11:21:00 PM  
Anonymous tinhorn dandy said...

Smarvel,

You da man! Nothing like a minor bureaucrat being put in its place. You done got the den all discombob-ululated. Sit back and listen: hear it?

"HEE HAWW! HEEE HAWW!"

6/20/2008 12:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of assholes.

6/20/2008 01:01:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Someone step on a duck?

Knew you'd appreciate that oy.

6/20/2008 05:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. Even though I often sit on the home team's side, I gotta admit I love it when a visitor steps up to the plate and smacks Nomo out of the park. Liberal or not, it's classic.

Smarvel, you handle yourself with the confidence of a free agent. I'll bet some on the coonteam remember those days.

6/20/2008 05:36:00 AM  
Blogger NoMo said...

It definitely gets a little screwy in here when visitors don't read the signs.

6/20/2008 07:13:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Nomo-
LOL! That's an understatement.

6/20/2008 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Although, based on what I read, I get the distinct impression that Snobulous is severely lacking in basic reading comprehension.

Just between us libs, you gno. :^)

6/20/2008 07:33:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Joan of Argghh! said...
"Not sure if it's good or bad news, dear Raccoons, but apparently, the Universe's unification is at hand:
You just have to do the math."

Ha ha! That's funnier than the Null Physics one! Next, they'll be sayin' the loonyverse is made of science or somethin'...

Speakin' of science, when is Charles gonna put up another science thread at LGF? It's been a whole NINE HOURS without a science thread! He's slackin' off.

6/20/2008 07:44:00 AM  
Anonymous christopher said...

You are in the main truly educated people and this place a more visible hillock on the journey. I for one am happy to be here at the moment.

Stories and exercises that reach the mind surely, and the heart as well...

The idea of the ring-tailed bandit...those guys are actually present in my neighborhood and I meet up with them frequently in the early mornings as I check my cat's digs in the open garage. The coons choose the dry cat food if they can't find anything else. When they are near, I have to wash out the outside water bowl as they think of it as a hand and item cleaning station. Once I lost a stare down in the midnight hour with a fella who was protecting his mate nearby...

6/20/2008 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

NOTE: No matter how nice the weather, and how noisy the bird is being, DO NOT leave the bird cage out over night, if you have raccoons in the neighborhood.

If you make that mistake, the morning will find lots of red feathers, very little bird, and a very distraught 8 yr old girl.

Just sayin'.

6/20/2008 08:12:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Good safety tip, Van.
I hope Beaky and Merlin didn't read this.

6/20/2008 08:23:00 AM  
Anonymous Skully said...

Christopher-
Hey! Who are ya callin' edumacated?

6/20/2008 08:25:00 AM  
Anonymous christopher said...

Skully, not if you don't wanna be...

I am just a bit impressed when I see people actually do logic online instead of just using it in the background (if not for logic and boolean algebra - no puters).

Just the other day, someone quoted from Hegel fer Gawd's sake.

6/20/2008 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Oh, you mean those wise guys, like Van.
I thought you were talkin' about wackademia or somethin'. Whew!

Me, I'm jes' sea smart, you might say.
The skool of hard knots.

6/20/2008 08:55:00 AM  
Anonymous christopher said...

Living on the mean streets,
Living in the meantime,
Doing mean time,
Taking it all back home.

But I was going to classes too.
Back in nineteen hundert and froze to death...

6/20/2008 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

And if Skully don't stop usin' my nic, I'm gonna keel haul him!
That's kinda like waterboarding but a little more drastic. :^)

6/20/2008 09:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Skully said...

Sorry Cap'n!

6/20/2008 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Experience trumps both thought and feeling, but not all 'feeling' is unemotional, nor is all thought unemotional, nor is all feeling genuine nor is all thought genuine. If it is true you will both feel it and know it, though it will not be a 'feeling' i.e. 'sadness', 'happiness' or a thought 'you're right', 'you're wrong' but rather something that is beyond those things.

But you don't seek the experience because you know that you're limited and don't know the difference between a genuine thought or feeling and false ones - either imaginations or demons.

Those who WAIT on the Lord will not be disappointed.

So when say, Moses, has a revelation of say - uh, the beginning of the creation - the revelation itself is neither a thought nor a feeling nor is of any language intelligible by mankind. For it is the Logos, the silence that is the word continually spoken by God.

But Moses, having received it, feels that he has received it, and because of who he is, is able to translate this crazy dream into human language. So - the feelings are important but not alone, and the thoughts are important, but not alone.

6/20/2008 09:17:00 AM  
Anonymous christopher said...

Wow!

6/20/2008 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

It is only admirable, I think, that we should seek to use our abilities to their fullest, and not to seek 'spiritual experiences'. For instance, should a man who is a great runner decide not to run and instead to meditate in his room for hours seeking an experience of God? Or did God make him a runner? This is not to say meditation has no merit, but rather those who do what God calls and simply hope and wait will see him. A million people thinking happy thoughts and meditating will not move the Earth an iota! But a million engineers and miners and smelters might be able to move it with a giant rocket, yes? But why would you need to move it, anyway? It seems to move quite nicely on its own.

I think something is very important here that Bob and Schoun revealed - something that experience has taught them is true - that is, you are doing what it is that God wishes - approximately - insofar as you do what is good, love what is beautiful, and know what is true. That is - we must do what we are able in the way which God created it. In this, we may find that we have a pure heart, and see God. And we do desire to see him. But we also acknowledge that we don't know what 'seeing God' really is until we do it. So any seeking after the experience itself would be akin to fishing without any knowledge of where the fish are, if anywhere.

I know from experience that those who seek an 'experience' will have one; but I nearly killed myself - as young as I am - through this path. There are certain gifts which I do not possess. I do not say this to blame God, but rather, I find I am humbled by those like St. John Maximovich who could hear the cry of a soul from across the city and come to his aid. Or who could pray and a hurricane would avoid their location.

I would say that Bob wants to know what is true, and uses a gift given to him to do it. In my experience my gift is teaching, that is, translating the translogical and transrational and paradoxical into some form that may be understood by those who haven't experienced these things.

As best I can tell this barrier - to warn against those who seek spiritual experiences - exists because the spiritual is not defacto good, but rather both 'lower' and 'higher'. Thus the lower would easily desire to find a 'seeker' of experiences of the unseen. And being ancient himself knows how little the seeker really knows.

So I am now careful when I pray, to keep it simple, honest and penitent. I stick to the formula and say just a few words of my own - and if I say to many I ask for forgiveness for that.

The biggest problem with Tolle - et al - is that they make themselves and their prospects out to be a bunch of ubermensch - when they are but ordinary people. And isn't the ordinary holy enough? Was not the Lord himself an ordinary man, not one of great stature or physical beauty? Few if any have any need or capacity to use these teachings which are thrust upon them to solve their problems.

When all along, the things we can learn, can love, and can do are set aside for things which if we were honest with ourselves we would know were not for us.

I have a prayer rope with 300 knots (very, very long.) I cannot pray all of the knots, but my humble goal is that before I die I should be able to correctly do all of them.

Man, this Dire Straits album is nice, even though it's old.

6/20/2008 10:25:00 AM  
Anonymous christopher said...

I am just a poor man and my story's seldom told,

I have squandered my existence for a pocket full of mumbles

Such are promises, all lies and jest

Til a man hears what he wants to hear

and disregards the rest.

Mr. Paul Simon

6/20/2008 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

River, you sure had your instrument in tune and reverberating on those last two.

Well said.

6/20/2008 11:24:00 AM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home