Thursday, April 13, 2006

Secular Fundamentalists and Other Simple People of Faith (3.7.08)

As I have mentioned before, what makes man unique is not just his capacity for knowledge, but his capacity to know so many things that are manifestly false. To call this latter thing "knowledge" is a perversion of the term, for knowledge that isn't true isn't proper knowledge at all. Then what is it? Why are human beings so prone to believe nonsense?

Even for most so-called intellectuals, most of what they know is not necessarily knowledge. Rather, it is plainly "belief." Belief is knowledge once removed, for it means that we are placing our trust in the knowledge of another, or participating in the knowledge of another knower. We don't know, but somebody does, and we trust them.

So much of what people think they know--but which they really don't know at all--comes down to whom they trust. For example, I generally read a few economics books per year, but I could hardly claim to be any kind of expert. And yet, I do have my opinions regarding economics--even strong opinions. But when it comes right down to it, I have to admit that my opinions rest upon which experts I trust. In my case, I trust a Thomas Sowell but deeply distrust a Paul Krugman. I expect the former to tell me the truth and the latter to lie and distort.

The typical leftist will be a mirror image of me. He will place his trust in Paul Krugman or Robert Reich, and will regard Thomas Sowell as an agenda-driven hack. It will serve no purpose for me to debate such a person on the merits of the competing economic theories, for again, if we are honest, we have to admit that one of us is simply suffering from the problem of misplaced trust.

Belief cannot establish its own legitimacy, but derives its legitimacy from someone who either knows, thinks he knows, or pretends to know. In this sense, it is superficially similar to faith. However, belief is generally a static thing. It takes the unknown and superimposes the known upon it, thus foreclosing the unknown. Once one believes something, the issue becomes settled.

Faith, on the other hand, is a dynamic engagement with the unknown. Faith, properly understood, is not a cognitive structure or grid to be superimposed upon reality. Rather, it is a psychospiritual probe with which to explore reality--somewhat like the way a blind person might use a cane to to construct an internal image of the dark space around him.

Furthermore, unlike belief, faith should be convertible to knowledge. It is actually a subtle and sophisticated way to gain knowledge that transcends the senses, not a means to provide false but comforting answers and to vanquish curiosity.

Thus, many people faith are actually "people of knowledge," whereas many so called intellectuals are actually no more than simple "people of faith." You can really see what little genuine knowledge people have when the discussion revolves around something you do happen to know about, whether it is quantum physics or plumbing repair.

For example, in my case, I happen to possess a lot of theoretical and first hand knowledge of psychology. Most intellectuals who claim to know about psychology don't actually have this kind of first hand knowledge. Rather, they have simply placed their trust in an expert whom they choose to believe.

I remember having a number of discussions with a world-renowned leftist historian who shall go unnamed. His historical thinking presumed a great deal of psychological knowledge, for how can you claim to study human history without some kind of implicit or explicit theory of human development and motivation? And yet, his psychological ideas were so outdated and unsophisticated as to be laughable. Yes, he had his own psychological "experts" whom he relied upon--probably some ideas he picked up here and there from leftist psychologists in the faculty lounge--but I knew that his faith in these experts was entirely misplaced. Incidentally, this man also happens to be an atheist who is extremely hostile to religion. But in matters of the human psyche, this callous sophisticate remains a "simple man of faith."

Ironically, it is just so in any debate between an obligatory atheist, or secular fundamentalist, and a man of genuine faith or gnosis. True, many people of faith simply place their trust in someone who knows--or claims to know--and leave it at that--their priest, their guru, Jesus, the Torah, L. Ron Hubbard, whatever.

But others do know. They know directly, as we discussed yesterday. How then to discuss this knowledge with the obligatory atheist--that simple and unsophisticated secular man of faith--who has placed his faith in those who not only do not know but obnoxiously insist that there is nothing to know?

Imagine a medical expert in, say, the mid 19th century. He has all of the latest knowledge on disease. He knows all about the four humors, about the proper placement of leeches, about how germs are spontaneously generated by bad air, etc. Someone comes along and tells this arrogant fellow that germs aren't spontaneously generated. Rather, there are invisible microorganisms covering his hands, living things that he is actually unwittingly transmitting to his patients. Would this doctor not be far closer to the truth if he did not place faith in his own experts or trust his own personal experience?

As expressed by Josef Pieper, "belief has the extraordinary property of endowing the believer with knowledge which would not be available to him by the exercise of his own powers." Furthermore, "being wise with the head of someone else is undoubtedly a smaller thing than possessing knowledge oneself, but it is far to be preferred to the sterile arrogance of one who does not achieve the independence of the knower and simultaneously despises the dependence of the believer."

Since we begin the spiritual path without explicit knowledge, we must inevitably place our faith in the testimony of someone who does (or did) know. Ah, but how do we know that this person isn't a mere believer himself? How do we assess their credibility and trustworthiness? By what signs do we judge the false from the true prophet?

Human beings are equipped to apprehend reality. But we are also curiously equipped to apprehend the interior reality persons. It is said that a sophisticated scientist, strictly speaking, does not judge the merits of a scientific theory on the basis of whether it is "true" or "false." Rather, he does so on the basis of its generativity, that is, by how much it explains, how well it ties together various other facts and observations, and the extent to which it gives rise to new, "interesting" problems.

Have you ever known a generative person in whose presence you experience the bracing flow of "life" along your keel? Have you ever been in the presence of a stagnant and lifeless person in whose presence you feel your soul being sucked out of your body?

The spiritually generative lumin being does not merely report reality. Rather, such an individual imparts reality. You might say that they are a door. Or you might say that they are a way. Or perhaps they are even the life.

They know. And we know that they know. And soon enough, we know too. Call it recognosis and ruahcollection.

40 Comments:

Anonymous Hoarhey said...

Excellent post today Bob, and a very hopeful last sentence.
I find myself piecing together parts of the puzzle by referencing previous posts and answering questions I have concerning the current one.
I also want to thank you for posting that photo of you in your "errant" youth. I can take these matters we discuss a little too seriously at times but when I scroll down past that picture to consult prior postings I always get a good belly laugh reflecting back to my own errant youth.

4/13/2006 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger Lisa said...

"Ironically, it is just so in any debate between an obligatory atheist, or secular fundamentalist, and a man of genuine faith or gnosis. True, many people of faith simply place their trust in someone who knows--or claims to know--and leave it at that--their priest, their guru, Jesus, the Torah, L. Ron Hubbard, whatever.

But others do know. They know directly, as we discussed yesterday. How then to discuss this knowledge with the obligatory atheist--that simple and unsophisticated secular man of faith--who has placed his faith in those who not only do not know but obnoxiously insist that there is nothing to know?"


I also think there is a confusion of knowledge when Jews & Christians debate the theological differences between them. Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah. Many Jews do believe that he was a great teacher or prophet. IMO, a Jew that believes in Jesus as Christ is a Christian. There is really no compromise over this difference of opinion/knowledge. I think this inability to "compromise" is what has made the Jews so easy to scapegoat and persecute throughout the Ages. Those pesky Jews just won't go along with the program, be it Christianity or Islam or Scientology. My question is can there ever be a true acceptance of people from different faiths as equals?

I believe every person has the right to worship or believe in whatever they want, so long as they do not actively harm others in its pursuit. Am I offended that Christians believe my Bible is not just the Bible but the OLD testament, as if there is a much better new one around? Or that time should be written in terms of when Jesus as Christ lived or died, BC & AD...? No, I am not offended. I take it as a lesson for me to be more tolerant of others beliefs.

I cannot approach spirituality as a one-way street with only one true answer. I can see some forms of beauty and truth in many types of religion and spirituality. I like to borrow and weave together a path and beliefs that fit for me, individually. I am impressed by how many cultures develop myths and beliefs that for the most part arrive at the same place and unity. I also see the need to eliminate ones that repress individual freedoms and the right to pursue happiness.

4/13/2006 09:08:00 AM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Yeterday we were greeted with that naseating picture of those two Iranian hippies holding up phials of enriched uranium while some poor abused dove was trying deperately to get the hell out of there.

Both Hugh Hewitt, and Bill Kristol- neither of whom are exactly right-wing firebrands- compared the event with Hitlers' march on the Rhineland.

I checked LGF on and off throughout the day. Tempers were hot. Flame wars going on. The Passover thread was almost as stridently good-willed as the the other threads were contentious. People are frightened. And with good reason.

I stood in the market at the checkout line. There on the cover of Vanity Fair, the silly people were on display: George Clooney, Julia Roberts. It was the "Green Issue" replete with Julia as Gaia.

A GRAVER THREAT THAN TERRORISM. HOW MANY US CITIES UNDER WATER BECAUSE OF OF GLOBAL WARMING?

"Graver?" I would have busted a high school freshman for that one.

Both Hugh Hewitt, and George Clooney have their beliefs about what constitutes a threat. Why, oh why does the silliest voice get the loudest amplifier? It's enough to make you believe in conspiracies or something. Reason on the sidelines. Vanity on display.
It just ain't fair.

JWM



JWM

4/13/2006 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Recognosis and ruahcollection! I love it! You know, I am not sure if Bob is editing his posts throughout the day or if I am just not recognosing certain sentences in just one read-thru. Keep us on our toes, Bob!

4/13/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

IMO, a Jew that believes in Jesus as Christ is a Christian. There is really no compromise over this difference of opinion/knowledge.
---------

Awww but Lisa, if you speak to a Jew that has accepted Jesus/Yeshua, they would disagree, as I have heard them eplain it as "I am now a complete/fullfilled Jew as some in Jews for Jesus and other messianic groups. It's wrong to think that all Christians look at the Jewish book as "just" the OT ... since Jesus/Yeshua didn't come to condemn but to fullfill and to serve. In fact, Jesus/Yeshua quoted from "your" book as holy scripture. Many times Jesus/Yeshua would respond with "have you not read?" and it was scripture that Jesus used to fight the devil. Jesus would use the power of Scripture saying, "It is written" so no, I as a Christian do not see "your book" as just the OT....not at all Lisa...I see it as bible, just as I see New Testament as bible.
IMHO, as seeking the ancient wells of living water, I don't look any other place than Judeo Christianity, because IMHO it's a mistake to separate Jesus's Jewishness from him and so is the same for the Jews that never renounce their Jewish heritage in order to accept Yeshua/Jesus as their Savior.

4/13/2006 10:07:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

Bob and the Bobbleheads - (and what a fabulous doo-wah group that was! Who can forget their smash hit chart toppers, "Gnosiswhere man" and "Generative Lumin a'Bloomin'"??

>>Have you ever known a generative person in whose presence you experience the bracing flow of "life" along your keel? Have you ever been in the presence of a stagnant and lifeless person in whose presence you feel your soul being sucked out of your body? <<

Yes and yes. And I would add: As the essence of the truly life-enhancing individual is something that, in part, transcends the usual bounderies of time and space, I think such an individual can impart - and be understood to impart - the Way and the Life long-distance, as it were. Like, maybe even over the internet.

4/13/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

True, but I tend not to trust people's opinion if they believe I will burn in hell for eating the wrong type of food or wearing the wrong hat. Call me old-fashioned.

______________

But Simon, may I ask you why would one not trust someone concerning such things as burning in hell, if one was an athiest? Do athiest really have a dog in the race of an afterlife? Wouldn't one have to believe in an afterlife for one to be concerned about things such as burning in hell?

4/13/2006 11:58:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

Lisa -

>>How then to discuss this knowledge with the obligatory atheist--that simple and unsophisticated secular man of faith--who has placed his faith in those who not only do not know but obnoxiously insist that there is nothing to know?"<<

My answer is: you don't. Really, why waste your time? Shake the dust off your sandals , move on. Cast not pearls before hogs, etc.

Anybody who has not gotten the word at this juncture in time and space has willfully, deliberately, and with malice aforethought, rejected it. So screw 'em.

4/13/2006 12:26:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

My question was more between Judaism and Christianity. How do you bridge that gap? LLH's comment on the Jews for Jesus that she knows and how they feel complete is very offensive to me. I know LLH meant no maliciousness or ill-will, but forgive me if I happen to feel complete without Jesus Christ being my lord and savior. That attitude is so condescending, intentionally or otherwise. There is a part of me that still hopes a messiah will come to earth and soon because humans obviously need all the help we can get. But, if this world is the after-effect of a messiah already revealed color me unimpressed. I have no problems that other people would like to believe Jesus is Christ, but I don't feel the same. Just as I have no problems with some people thinking I am going to hell for eating/not eating, wearing hats?, believing/not believing Jesus or Muhammed, etc. I only start to have a problem when they actively try to send me there, ie. Jihad/Muslims! I would never try to deny those who want to eat/not eat certain foods because that is their right just as it my right not to. Free Will! or Free Willy! ha ha...rant over...apologies to LLH ahead of time for singling her comment out. I still feel the love..

4/13/2006 01:01:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

Lisa -

I've defined myself as an esoteric Christian in this space before, and I'm telling you you're not going to hell because your Jewish, period. No, you're going to hell because you insist on wearing those *&$( green mist pebbled wedges in public!! (JOKING)

Way I see it, the Messiah has come and has yet to come. Jews and Christians both have it right, in a sense. I happen to think Christ appeared to give us a 2000 year lease extention and some time to clean up our act. I obviously part company with most Jews in thinking that if Christ had not appeared, the world and human life would have ended - things were that bad and the Powers That Be were not going to see the earth completely yield to evil. Thus the Rescue Plan. So, in that sense, Christ was the Messiah. He anchored enough Light to keep things going, while also providing an example of how to live so that at the end of the lease, we could choose correctly.

Messiah Part Two - the one that's coming eventually - here, I think, the Jews are obviously right. This Messiah has yet to appear. I happen to think that Messiah Part Two is going to be the same Messiah that appeared 2000 years ago. It's symmetrical, you know?

Bottom line is that if your heart and soul and will are in the right place, you will graduate.

4/13/2006 01:31:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Phewww! Thanks Will! But, ya know, I really do look good in red!

4/13/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

It's ok Lisa, but in response to your words of " LLH's comment on the Jews for Jesus that she knows and how they feel complete is very offensive to me. I know LLH meant no maliciousness or ill-will, but forgive me if I happen to feel complete without Jesus Christ being my lord and savior. That attitude is so condescending, intentionally or otherwise."

Perhaps my comments were in response to yours of "IMO, a Jew that believes in Jesus as Christ is a Christian. There is really no compromise over this difference of opinion/knowledge."

Lisa, what I was trying to get at is the same thing...just as it seems or feels offensive to you to hear that any Jew might feel to be complete Jew with Jesus, it might also be just as offensive to that same Jew to hear that they are now to be called Christians and somehow feel they have to lose their Jewishness for accepting Jesus. As if they somehow lose their Jewishness on that and suddenly all their Jewishness and their heritage and inheritance has changed. I thought I made that clear in my comments when I had added, "it's a mistake to separate Jesus's Jewishness from him and so is the same for the Jews that never renounce their Jewish heritage in order to accept Yeshua/Jesus as their Savior"

Again, I believe that there are many Jews that have not renounced their Jewishness when accepting Yeshua/Jesus. They have kept their Jewishness and still accepted Christ.

It's just like for example in your previous words of "Many Jews do believe that Jesus was a great teacher or prophet" One then has to ask what kind of teacher or prophet was He then? Was He a liar or not? Since Jesus himself claimed to be the messiah? How can he be great if he was a liar? How could he be a prophet...or was he a false prophet since he lied?

I understand that many Jews don't even see any divine authority at all in the New Testament...or believe that Jesus was anything other than a man and that the gentiles were never grafted in, but my previous comment that you felt offended by was sharing with you that there are indeed some Jews that have not given up their Jewishness to accept Jesus and my example was ie Jews for Jesus...and I shared this with you in response to your words of " a Jew that believes in Jesus as Christ is a Christian. There is really no compromise over this difference of opinion/knowledge"

So, yes there has been a compromise for some was my only point!

"I still feel the love.."

And thank God you still feel the love...as I have not meant anything else!

4/13/2006 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

Will---". I happen to think that Messiah Part Two is going to be the same Messiah that appeared 2000 years ago. "

Yes Will...when Jesus returns the second time...He will fullfill everything for everyone!

4/13/2006 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

BTW Lisa, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I said, " as I have heard them explain it"

So the attitude that you felt is so condescending, intentionally or otherwise was--them... the Jews that had accepted Christ's attitude on how they were trying to explain how they kept their Jewishness and still accepted Christ.

4/13/2006 01:49:00 PM  
Anonymous ben conrad usn (ret) said...

Great post Bob!
I have felt and known the generative life-flow across my keel (good word btw) and the soul-sucking death from various people I have known and met.
That goes for people who have passed on as well, and that is, among many words and thoughts I have regarding those people, filed under good and evil,life and death, love and hate.
Then there are the deceivers (as I call them).
The one's blessed with high charisma,
who may give me a good feeling...at first.
Yet over time I could begin to sense the counterfeit, the deception.
I can detect deceivers much easier now, but in my youth, it was much easier to be deceived.
I'm talking about verticle, spiritual deceivers not the horizontal, though they can both have high charisma.
The false prophets/ fallen angels of light only offer death, but disguised as life.
Paul warned of false prophets, and false christs, and said that even the elect could be deceived.
I would appreciate any comments from you, Bob, and my fellow commenters regarding deceivers.
The more we know/gnosis, the easier it is to detect them.

4/13/2006 02:06:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

LiquidDiet -

You and I might disagree on this but I am of the belief that if you endeavor to manifest the Light during your tenure on earth, you are "accepting Christ", whether you call it that or not.

Liquid, had you been born a Hindu in New Delhi, I am fairly sure of two things: one, you would probably accept the religion your culture had inculcated you with, and, two, you would be as big-hearted and compassionate as you are now. And I would say, yes, no matter what she calls herself, she is a follower of Christ.

4/13/2006 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

I understand your point, LLH. I just happen to disagree with it. There are certain conditions that are spoke of in the Bible that must be fulfilled. I am not the expert on Jewish messianic theory, so I don't want to give specific examples now. I will google it later! :0) Jews believe Jesus, the historical/spiritual figure we all know and love, is not the messiah. That's it..facts are facts, especially to Jews! lol. If a Jew accepts that Jesus is the messiah, they are no longer considered Jews by most if not all Jews themselves. Many Jews do not believe in every teaching of Jesus and that is OK but still believe he was a worthwhile human with much knowledge to share. Many people are convinced they are the messiah in a holy city like Jerusalem! The Jews for Jesus are now known as Christians. That is cool! Fabulous, I can see nothing wrong with it as an expression of free will. The denial that they still call themselves Jews is what is offensive. Their assumption that they are actually "Complete Jews" is nonsense.

Christian viewpoints at this blog discounted the Book of Judas that was just discovered and I don't understand why they are so quick to discount more authentic historical written word as gnosticism or nonsense.

Will's point about there being a synthesis of part 2 for Christians and part 1 for Jews of a messiah is brilliant. Thank you for answering such a relevant question. LLH, you are correct that we, Christians and Jews, share the same future. I part company just a tad because I believe this future is not exclusive to only Jews and Christians.

4/13/2006 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

LLH - Back from google-land and I thought you might be interested in why Jews don't believe in Jesus as the messiah.

4/13/2006 02:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Hoarhey said...

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!! Hiss, Hiss, Scratch, Scratch. ;)

4/13/2006 02:53:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

hey hoarhey, that's a bit demeaning -

two intelligent women having a reasoned, civil-toned disagreement does not make for a cat fight.

4/13/2006 03:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Hoarhey said...

My take is that it's more emotional than reasonable. Neither will convince the other of their point. And it seems to be dragging the original post completely off topic. Maybe they can exchange e-mails for further discussion. Just my observations and suggestion no need to take offense.

4/13/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Hoarhey,
Jump out of the horizontal and enter our vertical discussion. It is relevant and does follow the theme of this blog and post. Don't try to limit others growth in this forum even if you don't quite get it yet. No one is trying to convince anyone else of another point. We are just exploring the same paths from different perspectives. This is just my observation as well, so don't take offense! ;0)

4/13/2006 03:31:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

Liquid, had you been born a Hindu in New Delhi, I am fairly sure of two things: one, you would probably accept the religion your culture had inculcated you with, and, two, you would be as big-hearted and compassionate as you are now. And I would say, yes, no matter what she calls herself, she is a follower of Christ.
__________

But Will...I wasn't born a Christian so it doesn't matter what part of the world I was born into. Christianity isn't like Islam when you are born a muslim you are a muslim. No, I wasn't born into Christianity....I chose it at age 12 and to be honest with you, my parents had nothing to do with it...they weren't even present at the time.

4/13/2006 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

Lisa, you don't have to google anything to get me to understand Judaism, I understand very well, what my point was in the previous comments was a response to "your words" and I was stating that not all Jews feel that way because there are some Jews that have accepted Christ and have blended the Jewish sources/traditions and the Christian ones together into their lives. and I went on to explain how "they" had explained it to me. In other words they do not give up their Jewish heritage or their Jewish Identity just because they accept Christ.

4/13/2006 05:03:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

I suppose we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. Here is another link that some may find helpful from a site called Jews for Judaism that also makes the point I have tried to make above.

4/13/2006 05:33:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

liquidLifeInhaler -

I respect your conscious choice, of course. The point I was making is that, whether we are born into Christian households or not, ours is still a generally Christian culture. I'm sure this had some influence on your decision, just as it did mine. In the same way, one could be born into a non-Hindu household in India and still be influenced by India's Hindu culture.

4/13/2006 05:37:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Lisa wrote:
But, if this world is the after-effect of a messiah already revealed color me unimpressed.

Warning: unfounded speculation follows: :P

I believe that when Moses received the commandments on Sinai, that those tablets were the cornerstones of the world to come. That is- the world in which we live today. -Insert jump from Moses' time to the Roman empire.-
Perhaps in the same way that primitive architecture could construct a building only so many stories high, Rome was the highest civilization that a polytheistic system of belief would sustain. But Judaism does not proselytize. Maybe that was Jesus' job.
And maybe to the extent that we as a people and a culture have kept those commandments we have advanced, grown, matured, and become able to create the miracle of the modern world as we know it.

If we are to believe that all human beings are stamped from the same genetic mold, then why has our culture built the space shuttle, and the internet, while others are still eating bugs in the jungle? Maybe because our culture is founded on belief in the one God and his revealed truth. Theirs is founded on a pantheon of of false godlets and the whims of a shaman's imagination.

If islam had taken Europe, there would be no Western civilization. We would not be extending ourselves into one anothers homes via the internet. We would celebrate sharia as the last word in cosmic order.

It's easy to get discouraged given the frightening state of the world right now. But it was frightening during the cold war, too. And It must have been utterly terrifying in the run up to the first and second world wars. I myself am very afraid. I would love to believe that God is going to intervene at some point. But God hasn't done that Old Testament style intervention in a long time. Not even during the holocaust. I don't know- maybe God figured Hitler was a human problem with a human solution. Who knows if the followers of this *^%$%^ mohammed (Poo Butts Up High) are a different matter?

JWM

4/13/2006 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

Will---respect your conscious choice, of course. The point I was making is that, whether we are born into Christian households or not, ours is still a generally Christian culture. I'm sure this had some influence on your decision, just as it did mine. In the same way, one could be born into a non-Hindu household in India and still be influenced by India's Hindu culture.
-----

Will..culture really isn't my thing to be honest with ya on any barrier to accept Jesus although I understand where ya coming from as people use culture to label their identity as in American Jew or Russian Jew or Italian Christian or Irish Catholic or African muslim or American muslim whatever, etc...
To me, I believe that when Jesus came there was two types of people...There were the Jews and the gentiles and after Christ's work on the cross there was a 3rd kinda of people offered to us all...those that became "new" as in "new creatures" in Christ.

4/13/2006 06:12:00 PM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

Lisa---I suppose we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Lisa, if me trying to explain to you what someone tried to explain to me was insulting, then by all means I ask for forgiveness, as I do not wish to insult anyone, again, my comments were to point out that there is diversity in Judaism just as there is in all of our religions and not all Jews think alike! To be honest with you, I don't get the "complete" thing either but that is just what they told me in trying to explain how they didn't give up their "Jewishness" in order to accept Christ. Maybe it's a liberal term, I don't know, but maybe they meant complete work on the cross...but again, my point was that not all Jews have felt they have lost their Jewishness by accepting Jesus.

4/13/2006 06:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Hoarhey said...

JUMP!
Hey,
Was Jesus a Jew or a Christian or both?

4/13/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr. John said...

That's the 64 dollar question. Did Jesus come here to show us all the way to enlightenment, or did he come to "validate" himself as messiah, and then we could gain enlightenment through him. Either way, he was not a Christian. He would have disapproved of the fan club that sprang up in his dust, worshipping the medium instead of the message.

4/13/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Liquid honey,
I absolutely know you did not mean to be insulting in any way and I do not take it that way. If you read the 2nd link Jews for Judiasm in this thread, you will have a better understanding of the explanation given to you by the Jews for Jesus. Many Jews see this type of Messianic Judiasm as a cult. There is much diversity in Judaism and levels of observance, but this is not the same thing. You may just have to trust me on this one! ;0)

4/13/2006 07:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Rorschach said...

Dr John: Can't help but feel that's what all postmodernists dislike about Christianity. They've read their McLuhan; aware at all times that medium and message are inseparable. Therefore, if the Church is corrupt, they take it as read that Jesus was full of shit.

4/13/2006 08:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Hoarhey said...

JUMP,
Does it really matter?

4/13/2006 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

JWM- You do make valid points in your unfounded explanation. That is why now is the time for Jews & Christians in this country to really understand each other better and work through fears with kindness. There is a real enemy out there and we should be scared. They say and act on their promises of annihilation and doom. We should take them at their word and let them know just who the fools are in this world.

4/13/2006 08:38:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Very good, Hoarhey!

4/13/2006 08:42:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Lisa:
Amen.
JWM

4/13/2006 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger 90 said...

Charles Surgeon (Quote) : God be thanked for the simplicity of the gospel. The longer I live, the more I bless God that we have not received a classical gospel, nor a mathematical gospel, nor a metaphysical gospel; it is not a gospel confined to scholars and men of genius, but a poor man s gospel, a ploughman's gospel; for that is the kind of gospel which we can live upon and die upon. It is to us not the luxury of refinement, but the staple food of life. We want no fine words when the heart is heavy, neither do we need deep problems when we are lying upon the verge of eternity, weak in body and tempted in mind. At such times we magnify the blessed simplicity of the gospel. Jesus in the flesh made manifest becomes our soul's bread. Jesus bleeding on the cross, a substitute for sinners, is our soul's drink. This is the gospel for babes, and strong men want no more.

I think Spurgeon makes a good point. ;-)

4/13/2006 09:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Sal said...

Busy days ahead, see you on Monday.
A blessed Triduum to those celebrating and prayers for all.

Thanks, Bob and bobbleheads, for the thinking points and fine discussions. Y'all are the best!

4/14/2006 05:32:00 AM  
Blogger LiquidLifeHacker said...

will---You and I might disagree on this but I am of the belief that if you endeavor to manifest the Light during your tenure on earth, you are "accepting Christ", whether you call it that or not.


I don't know why will, but last night I thought about what you said here to me and it made me think about a similar question that I had answered one time when I was about 14...I had asked kinda the same thing and I remember being replied with, "If you know His name and you refuse to aknowledge His name, then you are not deserving" so I remember this just bothering me greatly at the time and how it was cleared up for me in my heart with this verse...

"Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33

4/14/2006 09:06:00 AM  

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