Friday, February 02, 2007

Vertical Globalization and the Further Adventures of Consciousness

When I began this blog, I had the idea that instead of doing what the 55 million other blogs do -- most of them poorly, but some of them infinitely better than the MSMistry of Truth -- I would "reverse figure and ground" and be the one blog that looks at the news of the day from the standpoint of eternity. It's actually difficult to define what is meant by the term "news," but whatever it is, it tends to obsessively isolate the "now" and focus all of its attention on the passing moment, almost unavoidably elevating the media-created "tempest of the day" well beyond its importance.

The whole idea of the hysterical "news culture" would have been foreign to our primitive furbears. I'm not saying that they were right and that we are deviants, but if you go back just a few hundred years, I believe you'll find that people did live within a "psycho-spiritual container" fundamentally different than ours. It is tempting for some people to romanticize that time as "normative" for humans, and to a certain extent it was, for it meant that life was lived at a much more natural pace and within specifically human (as opposed to infrahuman and materialistic) frames of reference. This is something, for example, that Orthodox Jews or the Amish attempt to resurrect today in their isolated little communities -- a sacred worldspace in which life is lived in the light of the eternal. "News," whatever it is, represents something of an "impurity" in this space, unless it pertains directly to the inherent (and sacred) rhythms of life: birth, marriage, illness, death, etc.

In fact, it is not stretching the point to say that this represents the underlying basis of World War IV, the war on radical Islam. This is the theme of Thomas Barnett's so-far brilliant book, The Pentagon's New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-first Century. Unfortunately, I have very little time to read these days, so I'm only up to page 63 of a somewhat lengthy book, but Barnett is a four-dimensional visionary thinker who is neither left nor right (more of a classical liberal) but very creative. The book is full of casually tossed off insights -- in my opinion, because he is operating out of a clear vision and simply describing what he sees there. As with my own vision, it may or may not be correct (some details are inevitably going to be wrong in any visionary system), but he gives us a way to see beyond the cognitively stultifying "news," think about the deeper structure of the now, and imagine "a future worth living."

Barnett's main insight is that the forces of globalization have created what he calls a "functioning core" of the world (the U.S., Western Europe, Japan, etc.) alongside an "unintegrated gap" that feels threatened by globalization and is actively resisting it -- violently if necessary. Likewise, the whole basis of the Cold War was that a large chunk of the world -- the communist world -- was an unintegrated gap that did not want to join the core, not for "sacred" reasons but for ideological ones.

Now, this whole dichotomy is distressing to a Coon, who obviously sympathizes with the forces of modernity and globalization, but who also fully understands (while not excusing) what would motivate someone from a traditional culture to violently resist it. Take, for example, our own Sectarian Conflict, which involved the identical pattern. Irrespective of the issue of slavery, the North represented the forces of globalization while the South represented an unintegrated gap within the United States that wished to remain separate and preserve a way of life that it clearly regarded as "sacred." For them, the life of the North was not worth living.

Indeed, this is what made men who would never be wealthy enough to own slaves fight and die by the tens of thousands. I am hardly a Civil War historian, let alone a buff, but I believe it is accurate to say that Southerners regarded the Northern army as a bunch of dishonorable mercenaries fighting for a subhuman cause. Because slavery has come to overshadow everything else, contemporary liberals have made it blasphemous to say that there was anything worthwhile about the antebellum South. This contemptuous attitude prevails today, in that our liberal elites -- think of John Kerry, or Chris Matthews, or primitive New York Timesman, or liberals in general -- simply cannot help registering their condescension toward the South and what it represents.

One of the things the South represents is the willingness to die for flag and country. Liberals routinely throw out the canard that the armed forces are disproportionately black and poor, but I am fairly certain that this is incorrect (I don't have time to personally look up the statistics). Rather, the military is disproportionately southern, for reasons that should be obvious if you give it a moment's thought.

It reminds me of something the immortal Duane Allman once said. Someone asked him what it felt like to be at the vanguard of this new fad of "Southern rock." He responded with words to the effect that this term was a a redundancy -- instead of "Southern rock," one might just as well say "rock rock," since its development was -- and only could have been -- a wholly Southern phenomenon: Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Roy Orbison, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Buddy Holly, Wanda Jackson, the Everly Brothers, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Bobby Bland, James Brown, T-Bone Walker, Little Richard, etc. Rock music originated in an "unintegrated cultural gap" that was generally unknown to the North. Music executives famously regarded it as artistically vacuous, if not offensive, and unworthy of the imprimatur of a respectable record label.

Now, 50 years on, the North has more or less succeeded in swallowing up this precious cultural expression, long since converting it to a mere commodity , which is what globalization does. You might even say that "Northerrn rock" represents the bland corporate substitute that extends from Pat Boone through disco, Madonna, MTV, death metal, rap and hip hop.

Rightly or wrongly, Muslims know that the tide of globalization will do the identical thing to their own culture and way of life. Thus, the unintegrated Muslim gap resists becoming part of of the functioning core.

As I mentioned yesterday, both the Left and Islamism represent pathological adaptations to the conditions of modernity and globalization. In the case of the Islamists it is self-evident, perhaps less so in the case of the Left. Scratch a leftist, and he will hire John Edwards and sue you. But scratch a little deeper, and what will you find? In a previous post entitled Political Seance, I wrote that

"In one version of history, the 'secular revolt' may be traced to the alienation and disenchantment caused by the scientific and industrial revolutions in the 17th and 18th centuries.... There was a deep sense that the organic unity of the world had been fractured -- a widespread perception of a sort of breach with the natural order of things, and with it, a collective mourning over the loss of timeless and familiar ways and customs. The romantic movement of the early 19th century was actually a reactionary and nostalgic yearning for an idyllic past, answering to the sense of loss of community and oneness with the rhythms of nature. This backward looking movement idealized the primitive and sought to unleash the subjective and irrational passions (countering the rational and objective detachment of science).

"Up to this time, one's personal identity had been based on such objective standards as a clearly defined role within an organic hierarchy or merger with a large extended clan. With modernity, this gave way to an uncertain identity that had to be forged for oneself in the world. The philosopher Charles Taylor (see his magisterial Sources of the Self) calls this 'an epistemological revolution with anthropological consequences,' as it led to a new kind of human being that had never before existed on a mass scale: the modern, self-defining subject in a world devoid of intrinsic meaning.

"Virtually all modern ideologies, movements and philosophies are somehow aimed at addressing this problem of alienation, of recapturing the broken unity of the world. Communism, nazism, European fascism, the beat movement, the hippie movement, the free love movement, the environmental movement, the new age movement -- all are futile attempts to turn back the clock and return to a mystical union with the 'volk,' with nature, with the proletariat, with the instincts. You can see this phenomenon in today's leftists, who clearly long for the 'magical' 1960's, which represented a high water mark for a resurgence of romantic merger with the group, free expression of the primitive, and idealized notions of recreating heaven on earth....

"We can see how contemporary liberalism fits the bill as a bogus cure for modern alienation. For example, multiculturalism devalues the concept of the individual in favor of the ethnic group, while socialism in all its forms favors the large and powerful mommy state that unites us all.... Leftists are uncomfortable with the painful idea of competition, but replace it with the notion of individual expressiveness. Everyone's natural impulses are beautiful, and we must not judge them, much less try to elevate them. Deconstruction throws all objective meaning into question, so no one has to have the disappointing experience of being wrong or denied tenure, no matter how stupid one's ideas. The burden of personal responsibility is attenuated, because one's being is determined by accidental factors such as race, class and gender, not one's owns values, decisions and actions. Skillful knowledge acquired by intense effort (or just being born smarter) is replaced by an obnoxious, hypertrophied adolescent skepticism that knows only how to question but not to learn. It is grounded in a sort of bovine materialism that is not the realm of answers, but the graveyard of meaningful questions. The primitive is idealized, because it is within everyone's reach."

*****

I apologize for the length of this post. Believe it or not, it is all a preface to Anonymous' next two questions, "Does anybody else actually exist or am I just a waking dreamer, dreaming the world and all of its inhabitants into existence in order to actualize my fractured consciousness?," and "For that matter, do I even exist or am I just a scripted player in a wider dream?" My rambling overchore was prompted by another comment left by Anonymous yesterday, who clarified his reasons for asking these two questions. He spoke of a common spiritual transformation in which you might say that he is beginning to "reverse figure and ground" and recognize the reality of the vertical:

"The first time this transformation really hit me was when I was walking down the street. I began to see the people I passed as manifestations of something great. As infinite 'bubbles' of potential divinity within the sea of material manifestation. As pockets of verticality infused into an otherwise horizontal world.... Of course, I didn't actually 'see' this with my eyes. The visual component of the 'seeing' experience was unchanged. But it was as if I were able to perceive a deeper truth, beyond what my could eyes could detect.

"A few weeks later... I received an influx of what you would call 'O' or intellection or grace.... This experience is best described as a pure knowledge or realization that 'I' alone exist. That all other people and experiences are actually just a different perspective on the same experience that is 'I'.... Since this realization, I wake each day, and I fundamentally know that both my psycho-physical self and the physical world around me is just a hollow shell of What Is True.

"It has been tempting to indulge in this realization by dropping out of the 'shell reality' altogether.... Candidly, I am somewhat concerned that this new perspective is dissociative, delusional, fixated, narcissistic, solipsistic or otherwise pathological."

*****

Now, the important question is, how do we tie all of this together before Future Leader wakes up?

As I mentioned at the top of this post, one of the original purposes of this blog was to "reverse figure and ground" and consider the news of the day from the standpoint of eternity -- which is actually what all religion is designed to give you a framework to do. Another way of saying it is that religion is all about thinking and living within the vertical, while not denying the horizontal but sacralizing it.

On the other hand, the forces of modernity -- globalization, the advance of science and technology, the loss of tradition -- seem to involve a tide of pure horizontality that severs man from his vertical roots. How to reconcile this with our Coon nature?

One can be a strong advocate of globalization (as I am) and still see its downside. On the one hand, it has produced this bland and shallow dominant culture of vulgar secular leftist materialism. But at the same time, for a Coon, life has never been richer. We have instant access to all art, all literature and philosophy, all music, all sacred writings, all films, basically everything, in a way undreamt of in the past. And yet, most people just fritter away this liberty on McDonalds, The New York Times, American Idol, video games, and other banalities.

If man is to survive in any recognizable form -- if we are to create a future worth living -- I passionately believe that our horizontal globalization must be matched by a vertical globalization. Since this post has gone on long enough, I will discuss this further tomorrow. Suffice it to say that the relentless horizontal daydream of globalization must be supplemented by the night logic of wideawake vertical dreamers in order to create a future fit for man. Religion must play a part in this future, but not the primitive religiosity of the Islamists or the postmodern barbarism of the Sam Harrises and Daniel Dennetts of the world, whose hollow ideology is merely a parasitic shadow of the vertical.

You might say that globalization must be accompanied by celestialization.

UPDATE

Speaking of pathological reactions to modernity, a wonderful article on the religion of radical environmentalism, A Necessary Apocalypse.

40 Comments:

Anonymous bruce Kodish said...

Great post. And that guy you quote at such length seems pretty sharp too.

"...the primitive religiosity of the Islamists or the postmodern barbarism of the Sam Harrises and Daniel Dennetts of the world, whose ideology is merely a parasitic shadow of the vertical."

Idol worshipers all--treating the relative (horizontal) as if it were the absolute (vertical) and becoming more and more stuck in their delusions.

On another completely different note: take it easy on Pat Boone will ya? He does bland better than anybody, indeed he 'is' the godfather of bland and somtimes that's sublime See { http://www.patboone.com/|Pat Boone.Com}. I like the guy.

2/02/2007 08:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Cassandra said...

I look forward to hearing more about vertical globalization. Why do I feel like I've just heard an important phrase coined?

There is a prophetic sense here, a sense that something large is being birthed...

Strange.

2/02/2007 08:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Booger the Cat said...

Cassandra:
I don't believe you.

;)

JWM

(sorry, couldn't resist)

2/02/2007 09:13:00 AM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Dear Leader-
Your ambitious post was all-encoonpassing!
A vertical globalization centered on the vertical core, juxtaposing on the global or horizontal core.

To wit, I can only say:
Bravo Zulu!!!

I didn't realize how long your post was. It seemed to be short to me.
I await your next post with my usual overtwhelming coonosity.

2/02/2007 09:13:00 AM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Yikes! Damn cat hijacked my nic again.

JWM

2/02/2007 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous jbw said...

I agree with what you say about the South. I grew up in the South. I have close friends who try to live the southern cracker lifestyle. It is a very wholesome way to live. There are unexpected moments of music and creativity whenever I am around them. My friends have started a family and are happy in a way that I am not living a more cosmopolitan lifestyle. There is a lot of jokes about southern hicks, racism, and southern laziness. Some of the stereotypes are true, but there is so much more then these narrow ideas about what it means to live in the south. Reading this post has made me realize that it is a lifestyle that can actively be pursued, and should be. Southerners aren't lazy they just appreciate slack. What better way to enjoy slack then sitting on your front porch drinking sweet tea. It's divine, so it comes a no surprise to me that Southern culture, which is the butt of many jokes by transplanted New Yorkers, is responsible for a great deal of American musical culture. There is a deep vein of irony here. Slack is an important part of southern culture and slack is, as I learned here, essential for getting close to God.

2/02/2007 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

JBW:

Indeed!

Just imagine life without Cosmic American Music, which almost exclusively arose in the south: blues, country, rock, soul, rhythm & blues, gospel, jazz, etc.

I honestly don't know how I would live without American -- which is to say Southern -- music, whether it is ricocheted back to us via the British invasion or through the many permuations of jazz. It's like a sacred touchstone to me.

2/02/2007 09:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Brian said...

Celestialize as we globalize. I think you've hit on a new and much needed verb there Bob. Great post.

2/02/2007 09:49:00 AM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Contemptuous Anonymous leftist a-hole:

Stop spinning the military recruitment statistics:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm

And please go away. You have no business whatsoever on this blog. It is not intended for your kind.

2/02/2007 09:59:00 AM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

Cuz,

Did Contemptuous Anonymous leftist a-hole think people would take his word on the statistics?
And how did percentage of Southerners get turned into a race question?
Oh the psychotic contortions of an agendist.

2/02/2007 10:03:00 AM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Race-obsessed leftists will never stop trying exploit blacks and foment racial division, since their political future depends on keeping blacks on the liberal plantation. Every black who throws off the shackles of leftism is an existential threat to them.

2/02/2007 10:14:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

Pope JP2 continuously warned the world about the perils of both communism and Western-style secularism. Obviously he chose to align himself with the West, despite its spirit-denying secularism - and this, I think, was because he always realized that only in the West did the possibility of "vertical globalization" exist.

Re: the South and its valiant spirit: we should remember that at the time of the Civil War there were plenty of Northern boys willing to fight and die for the preservation of the Union - they weren't motivated by the impulse to inflict Northern industrial, post-agrarian values on the South. In this sense, North and South were actually more united then than they are now - the unique American spirit with its sense of duty and sacrifice animated them both.

I think the central problem with "unintegrated gaps" they are not the timeless, unchanging cultures their champions believe they are. Like anything else, cultures change, must change. They are either progressing or regressing. I know the South believed itself to represent a certain timeless value, but in fact, the South had been changing, was actually becoming European in many respects, This was obviously a regression, though nothing on the scale of modern day unintegrated-gap culture regression. I tend to think the barbarism and violence we see in modern day unintegrated-gap cultures is not so much the result of their noble desire to preserve what they regard as sacred, but really is, at metaphysical root, evidence of spiritual regression, a sliding back into chaos.

2/02/2007 10:26:00 AM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

A perpetual mystery... How does the First Deputy of Doctrinal Enforcement always manage with such elan to simultaneously extend Dear Leader's functioning core of knowledge and fill in his unintegrated gaps? Are you twin sons of different Coon mothers or something?

2/02/2007 10:42:00 AM  
Blogger Ursus said...

For DOD statistics on black representation in the general population and in the military go here http://www.dod.mil/prhome/
poprep2004/
summary/summary.html

As for people wasting their time on ephemeral, useless things like video games, American Idol, etc. If people haven't been taught that there are better things to do with their time and energy, how are they to know about these more worthwhile alternatives? Since finding these better pursuits requires that they be able to "discriminate" i.e. judge things against a standard and rank them from good to bad, how are they supposed to do this if they are taught that to discriminate is bad, bad, bad and that all things are equal, with none superior to the other. Moreover, do you think that they teach standards like “the Good, the True, the Beautiful” in most schools these days?

2/02/2007 11:12:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

Hey, I appreciate Southern culture in all its benign aspects as much as anybody. But I think Southern culture is the way it is, not because of its antebellum values, but because "it lost a war".

I don't think we'd see much of what we do see in Southern values had the South actually been successful in seceding from the Union. As I said before, the South was becoming more European in culture at the time of the Civil War - a certain royalty was forming, everyone else being a degree of serf. A reprise of feudal society, in other words.

However, by losing the war, by being as impoverished as it was, by suffering through the long years of recovery, I believe the South discovered within itself a certain liberating spiritual value that persists to this day. So, to a certain extent, by losing the war, the South forged for itself the real American spirit.

In short, we can thank Lincoln for Elvis.

Dupree - yeah, it's just damn eerie, isn't it? Actually, we're both just reading the same sky graffiti.

2/02/2007 11:28:00 AM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Speaking of pathological reactions to modernity, a wonderful article on the religion of radical environmentalism A Necessary Apocalypse.

2/02/2007 11:54:00 AM  
Anonymous GLASR said...

That was a little faster than I expected, the "Future Leader" consideration, like that. Do you have a Time Machine too? heh heh The other connectivity I find fascinating is the infusion of the personal. If you only read the Web Log posts where Dr. Barnett(informality breeds disrespect - saying from the 'hood)writes of the "rhythms of life" none of his "circumnavalgazing" would be lost. Completely buries any other "blogger" with the exception of Washingtonian or perhaps Wonkette. heh heh That is not a request in any shape or form - no coonstalker me.So, if you have the time, skip the "tempest of the day" over there, look around for the rhythms, easy to spot. There are folks who believe Dr. Barnett needs psychoanalysis and therapy anyway. heh heh Correct me if I was wrong on the word, language creation, get you outta the chair funny, personal vertical - kinda struck me is all. I said nothing to the folks I filter for(who no longer come here, under your "I don't want to be famous" coonedict heh heh)but the WTF? is Dr. Godwin related to Dr. Barnett response was immediate. Of course, they're the same person, you're being converted to Catholicism,globalization mechanism, 5GW style, my reply. heh heh

Do read the books. The classical liberalism of The Founders is well, uh, um, right down to "at the point of a gun". We all know a little homogenization will not kill us as readily as some of the alternatives. And c'mon, who would believe that other human beings want to live in poverty, threatened by disease and at the mercy of blood thirsty maniacal despots besides libtardcommiecrats?

Maybe I should have sent this in an e-mail, wouldn't want any raccoons, uh, um, ya know, getting the wrong ring-tail head scratching ideas. Connectivity of the cults .... oops, I mean groups of strategic forward and upward thinkers. heh heh

Thanks. I think.

2/02/2007 12:44:00 PM  
Anonymous GLASR said...

I took a pass on the War of the Rebellion discussion. Just so everyone gets it straight - the South has risen - it's been over for a while. I'm ready to go home .......... tired of living among the defeated who don't have a clue.heh heh

2/02/2007 12:54:00 PM  
Anonymous ms. E said...

Overheard at a modern day Beaumont and Fletcher melodrama workshop:

zzazzeefrazzee (a resisting muslim troll): "Why, slaves, 'tis in our power to hang ye."

Spencer, Fitzgerald & and JihadWatch readers:
"Very likely,
'Tis in our powers, then, to be hanged, and scorn ye."

And so it goes - "Life is a festival only to the wise".

2/02/2007 01:29:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

GB - Small point. I may have missed it, but have you ever mentioned Robert Johnson in your lists of "Cosmic American Music" origins? I have always considered him as The Source or at least very close to it.

2/02/2007 01:54:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Nomo:

I know it's a horror to traditionalists, but I am more of an electric bluesman: Muddy, Wolf, Sonny Boy Williamson, Little Walter, Bobby Blue Bland, Big Joe Turner, Duane Allman and Stevie Ray would be my favorites. I can certainly appreciate the earlier stuff, but it doesn't shake my coon tail in the same way.

2/02/2007 02:04:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

GB - So, when you really want to shake it up, might I assume you also crank up Koko Taylor's "Force of Nature"? Whew, just thinkin' about it gets me movin'. (Plus my wife LOVES it).

2/02/2007 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

No, here we do the Wang Dang Doodle.

2/02/2007 02:27:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Uh, I think wang dang doodle IS a force of nature.

;o)

2/02/2007 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

All night long.

2/02/2007 02:39:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

All night long.

2/02/2007 02:49:00 PM  
Anonymous ms. E said...

Down here in Texas we like to do do the Suzie Q - a la Lightnin' Hopkins- all night long.

2/02/2007 02:49:00 PM  
Anonymous GLASR said...

Try Elvin Bishop, Koko Taylor on the same vinyl.

2/02/2007 03:00:00 PM  
Anonymous cosanostradamus said...

Before y'all git too far down and dirty, lively up yourselves some Shaker music in the hands of those who can wring the spirit from it. It's distinctly American too, although more a blend of Celtic and northern Appalachian. Yankees didn't steal everything from General Lee's camp. :-)

For the acoustic side, check out "Simple Gifts", or "Tree of Life" from this catalog --> Gourd Music. Anything from this indie label is gold. On the 110 voltage side, I've heard the Young Dubliners and Clumsy Lovers rip off some pretty hot Shaker licks from time to time.

Granted, the Shakers had something profoundly wrong as they extinctified themselves by expending all their energy stomping and hollering in their clapboard chapels, leaving no life force for the horizontal bump and grind, but they did leave behind some great music.

OK, all raccoons back south of the Mason-Dixon. Shoo!

2/02/2007 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Bleepless said...

For another aspect of pathological reactions to modernism, see Jeffrey Herf's study of Naziism, "Reactionary Modernism" (Cambridge U. Press).

2/02/2007 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

JWM/Booger the cat said..."Cassandra:I don't believe you."

LOL, Nothing to do with what the commenter Cassandra said (I agree), but I had the same immediate impulse!

- If you don't get it, look up Cassandra in Wikipedia ;-)

2/02/2007 03:48:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Cousin Dupree-
Thanks for the link to American Thinker (those guys can really think!).
It's a keeper.

2/02/2007 03:54:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Well, it seems that there are different 'non-integrating gaps'... Some are just a source of 'texture' or 'flavor' while others are a volatile explosion of destructive anti-modernity.

It seems to me that part of growth is continually integrating the non-integrating gap.

Kind of like how creatures, on the most basic level, integrate raw materials in the form of food or otherwise into their system.

The result I would think would be they would become whatever they were integrating into is.

So, lets do our best to never integrate folks into leftism.

2/02/2007 04:12:00 PM  
Blogger ximeze said...

ms E:
Great link(ye)to eclectech. Gotta wonder what she would create with a 'Coon.

I'd buy stuff with those amusing fuxshops on them: cards, Tshirts, posters, etc. Perhaps an email is in order.

2/02/2007 05:20:00 PM  
Blogger GeorgeD said...

Sorry for the rejoinder to glasr's comment in yesterday's post here but he wouldn't likely see it if I posted there.

glasr you followed your link to the produgy with the quote " no man has seen God at ANY TIME". (my emphasis)

I suppose that that just leaves eternity now doesn't it?

2/02/2007 07:01:00 PM  
Anonymous GLASR said...

We'll see soon enough how GOD reveals himself to us after jettisoning our bodies. The "kid" said she saw GOD, perhaps JESUS? Oh shit, maybe HEAVEN. The quote is the Apostle John's variation of GOD telling Moses such a thing. I think, maybe, uh, well, ah, little help here? heh heh

2/02/2007 11:04:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Glasr-
I believe that the word see, in reference to seeing God, means to fully realize, comprehend, understand, gno in all His glory.

Even after we shed our bodies, I still don't believe we will see God fully, although we may gno more.

As Georges said, we have all of Eternity to 'see' God.

2/03/2007 05:12:00 AM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Glasr-
Forgot to add:
Although the veil will be gone, and we see clearly, doesn't mean we fully realize and experience all of God.
Indeed, that is what Eternity is for, among other things.

2/03/2007 05:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Eric said...

My three cents on the Godwin and Sam Harris:

Perhaps Sam Harris is calling for the end of pre-rational faith, as opposed to the end of trans-rational faith, which as Godwin says is clearly a prerequisite for all vertical endeavors. Pre-rational faith is so prevelant amongst the Christian Right, radical Moslims, post-modern pluralists, and probably anyone not actively and conscioulsy developing beyond a separate-self sense, that a call to end this kind of dangerous, pre-rational faith might be a boon to a planet desperately in need of memetic development. Now, according to Spiral Dynamics and other developmental schemes, all stages of consciousness are recognized as being an integral part of an evolving cosmos. There can be healthy and unhealthy versions of each of these stages, but none-the-less, eventhough it might be hard to understand or accept, they say there is a place for all less-than-enlightened perspectives. In light of that, it seems rediculous to call for an end of pre-rational faith, for “pre-rationalism” would be part and parcel of evolving minds, and not until these minds reach a certain stage of development could they make the radical, top-down switch and really cultivate (o) in the purest sense. Why would Harris demand for the end of a natural psychological stage? Would that be as rediculous as calling for the end of rocks, grass or zebras? And why would Godwin intepret Harris’ call for the end of pre-rational faith as an attack on trans-rational faith? Even Harris has faith in reason and his meditative techniques.

In respect to Harris’ atheism, perhaps he is not saying that there is no ontological meaning in this beautiful cosmos, but there is simply no thing out there called God. A Buddhist atheism sounds like a far cry from a cold-blooded, flatland relationship to the universe, but more like a metaphysical get-up to shake people out of a deep-rooted psychological materialism. When Harris says he doesn’t believe in God, maybe he doesn’t believe in the mythic, old-man-in-the-sky God so prevalently believed in by the majority of mankind. In fact, Harris would probably argue that not only does an independent, self-contained, un-created, separate thing called God not exist, but from a certain perspective there is also is no such thing as a desk, chair, microscope, television, or any thing at all, and that any utterance about the existence of a thing would be an imputation and an exercise in the impossible, for the ebb and flow of the non-dual whole cannot be broken into parts, for it is a thing-in-itself. From that absolute, Madyamikin, advaitan perspective, though, even claiming atheism would a back-door approach to a non-duality that really won’t take “no-God” for an answer either.

Will the Sam-antics prevail? Does God-win in the end? Who knows, but I’m sure God’s non-existent Self is getting a real kick out of our metaphysics. I know I am.

2/08/2007 02:06:00 PM  
Anonymous zzazzeefrazzee said...

ms. "E"

Please don't misconstrue me as something i am not, nor imply that I have made comments which I have not. You can easily post a link to what said directly.

btw- how would you know that I'm a "resisting muslim troll"? I merely question the reactionary rhetoric on all sides, but do not espouse it.

zzazzee

4/26/2007 01:09:00 PM  

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