Tuesday, June 29, 2010

The "Faith" of the Tenured vs. The Faith of the Wise

Pieper begin his discussion of faith by first defining the meaning of the term, since most people have no idea what it actually means in a religious context, most especially the tenured. The latter might define it as "practical certainty about matters that cannot be justified adequately," or "objectively inadequate acceptance of something as true." Ironically, this definition certainly applies to their beliefs, but this is only a static imitation of the dynamic faith that applies to O.

For example, since he's going to keep posting it again anyway, I might as well tell you that our blind troll really, really, wants my readers to know about this biologist, Ursula Goodenough, who has her own ideas about nature and religion, and that they differ from mine. He wants you to know that he is a victim, a victim I tell you, of my tyrannical "censorship" because I do not want my cult members to be exposed to an alternative doctrine that might liberate you from my clutches blah blah blah.

The review at the top says that she espouses "a kind of religious naturalism that will not be unfamiliar to readers of New Age literature." I certainly don't want my readers to know about that secret. I mean, I'd never alert them to those other demented, I mean brilliant theologians who have successfully reconciled spirit and nature!

As an asnide, as you all know, there is way too much material on the internet for any person to deal with even a fraction of it. However, I've discovered a shortcut that I recommend to others. When you read an editorial, don't necessarily waste your time with the whole thing. Rather, stop reading the moment you encounter a statement that is irretrievably stupid. I think you'll find that with most leftist, atheist, or materialist (or naturalist, or whatever their calling themselves these days) material, you often cannot get past the fatal flaws of the first sentence. ("Materialist material." Heh.)

A case in point is Goodenough's book. I'm sure she's a nice lady and a good scientist and everything, but as it pertains to metaphysics, she is strictly amateur, a dabbler, a Sunday painter. While her musings may be goodenough for the tenured, they are just a reminder of some old blandmarks we saw long ago in the foothills of our journey. Breaking news: nature is sacred. But it is specifically sacred because of its metaphysical transparency, because of the divine energies that shine through it, not because it "obeys the laws of physics." Sacred is an ontological category, not a side effect of math.

Furthermore, she has the self-regard to "think through" things that have already been fully thought through by people much more brilliant -- not to mention illuminated -- than she will ever be, so the whole exercise is rather childish.

Really, it's just a way to create a kind of faux religion that will be acceptable to the NPR listening/Slate reading/MENSA geeks who hate religion on its own terms. Let me be clear: there is nothing whatsoever wrong about demonstrating the compatibility of science and religion, which obviously cannot not be compatible, since truth is One. Problems only arise when the latter is reduced to the former, which is a cosmic impossibility.

Anyway, I couldn't get past the very first sentence of the book: Everything in our universe, including the Earth and its living creatures, obeys the laws of physics, laws that became manifest in the first moments of time. Oh, really? What is this, a premise? A conclusion? A faith?

Whatever it is, it is plainly wrong by its own lights, for if it is true, it is a truth that clearly cannot be reduced to the laws of physics, on pain of eliminating not only its own truth, but the very possibility of truth.

But this is what materialists -- excuse me, naturalists -- do. They begin with their implicit prejudicial faith in matter, and then conclude that matter (or the "laws" that "govern it") is all there is. This woman may call herself "religious," but there are certain intrinsic heresies in theology that in our view immediately place one outside the domain of theology -- for the same reason that there are intrinsic scientific heresies that place oneself outside the scientific world view, say, belief in miracles as a scientific explanation.

I'm not necessarily criticizing Goodenough. She's obviously a sincere person who is trying to figure things out on her own, but that's a big part of the problem. Again, intellects far more exalted than hers have already figured it out, e.g., Aquinas, Eckhart, Schuon, etc. No, these three do not agree in all the details. That's not their job. Rather, that's my job -- to reconcile the knowledge of those who truly know, and in turn to reconcile that with what science "knows."

This is precisely what Aquinas attempted some seven or eight centuries ago. We're getting a little sidetracked here, but I think it's important. As Pieper emphasizes, first of all, Aquinas had the proper qualifications to approach the subject, in that he was objective, dispassionate, and pure, an adjective that the tenured would just laugh at as irrelevant at best.

But hear us now, believe us later: there is no knowledge of higher things in the absence of purity, for you will just bring your impurities with you and confuse them with reality. Purity is to theology what, say, integrity and intellectual honesty are to the scientist. Without it, nothing they say can be trusted.

This is not something that only applies to theology, but to psychology as well. When a mentally ill person opines on the nature of the mind, what do you suppose he sees? Obviously, job one for the true metapsychologist is the sufficient insight and self-understanding to have at least recognized one's mind parasites, even if one hasn't fully domesticated them. This requires a level of personal honesty that most people do not possess, not for conscious reasons, but for unconscious reasons, since the very purpose of psychological defense mechanisms is to blind the person to his own true motivations.

Thus, applied to the domain of spirit, sincere humility is the minimum requirement. To paraphrase Thomas, the first-born daughter of unchastity is "blindness of spirit." Pieper goes on to explain that "Only he who wants nothing for himself, who is not subjectively 'interested,' can know the truth." Again, remember what we were saying yesterday about the suspension of memory, desire, and understanding.

Also, Pieper emphasizes that Thomas was, above all else, a teacher. True, he was probably the greatest philosopher who has ever lived, but he would have been the last to characterize himself in those terms. Rather, he mainly prayed for two things: truth or wisdom and the ability to impart it to others. Oh yes, and a third thing: that "his life would not outlast his teaching." Since there was no internet in those days, -- I think that's correct -- this was by no means assured, especially since Thomas left not a single disciple at the time of his death. We're lucky that someone didn't just toss it all in the nearest dumpster.

"To lead a man from error to truth -- this he considered the greatest service which one man can render another." Amen! More: "Teaching is a process that goes on between living men" -- and I might add that both needn't technically be merely "biologically" living, for as I have said on many occasions, it is very much possible to have a vibrantly living relationship with a teacher who is no longer on this side of the veil. In fact, if you don't have such a relationship with at least one such person, ur probbly doin it rong.

"The teacher looks not only at the truth of things; at the same time he looks at the faces of living men who desire to know this truth. Love of truth and love of men -- only the two together constitute a teacher."

And by no means does the study of philosophy involve merely learning "what others have thought but to learn the truth of things." Again, the true teacher does not impart (k) but facilitates (n). Thus, it is fundamentally impossible to impart the truth of O through (k), rather, only its outlines and shadows. A third thing is required, what I symbolized in the book as (you know, that equal sign with wavy lines). This is how (n) is imparted from one soul to another.

Thus, none of this is irrelevant to our discussion of faith, which is above all else a tacit foreknowledge of as yet undiscovered truths, so that faith itself is already an aspect of the truth it seeks. Fathermore, even -- or especially! -- God has an analogue of dynamic faith within his person: "The divine archetype of faith is the 'yes' which God says to Himself; it is the Logos which on the one hand mirrors the Divine Infinity, and on the other hand refracts it" (Schuon).

I'll leave you with some more typically lucid words of Schuon:

"Faith is the participation of the will in the intelligence; just as on the physical plane man adapts his action to the physical facts which determine its nature, so also, on the spiritual plane, he should act in accordance with his convictions, by inward activity even more than by outward activity, for 'before acting one must first be,' and our being is nothing else but our inward activity. The soul must be to the intelligence what beauty is to truth, and this is what we have called the 'moral qualification' that should accompany the 'intellectual qualification.'”

The wife just captured a fleeting image of this water sprite in the backyard with her phone:

155 Comments:

Blogger Van said...

"... this biologist, Ursula Goodenough, who has her own ideas about nature and religion, and that they differ from mine."

Thank God.

"Ursula Goodenough"

Best actual-name-that-could-have-been-a-James-Bond-or-Austin-Powers-villain-name Ever!

Sorry, just had to splutter that out there.

6/29/2010 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Cat-out-of-the-bag:

Anon not having perused the Coonifesto has not yet been permanently hypnotized by the occult spell cast upon the reader of the first three pages. Oh to be free of this blasted cult! Free to choose my own thoughts once again, rather than have them forcibly injected into my poor melon daily by that Dr. Evil in a coonskin cap, The Dastardly B'ob.

Maybe anon can get word to someone on the outside...? We need rescuing and materialist re-education, anon, stat!

6/29/2010 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I must be doing something wrong, because I keep losing my readers to Christianity, Judaism, and other competitors.... My own wife turned Catholic on me!

6/29/2010 09:27:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And I notice that Ricky "Raccoon" is dabbling in Orthodoxy!

6/29/2010 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger black hole said...

Fascinating Post.

The requirements for imparting soul knowledge were of particular interest, such as overcoming one's own ego defences.

Thanks to you, I've begun work on that very project although completion is a long way off as of yet.

And, in this post you divulge more of your controlling purpose than I've seen before, which helps me understand your motivation.

You wish to impart truth soul to soul.

As for your audience: I think you known the "regulars" here need no help to "reconcile the knowledge of those who truly know, and in turn to reconcile that with what science "knows."

Van, Julie, NB, Susannah, J of A, etc, are all faithful.

Therefore, you MUST be writing at least partly to the lost, to the fence-sitter, to the troll. I feel honored.

And you Bob are an anti-leftist troll. Yes, you.
You are chronically irritable, combative, and petulant. Everything you need for sucess is there.

You are one of us, and one of them. You straddle both sides of the fence. Kudos


I've yet the pleasure to meet the "blind troll" (BT). She sounds fascinating.

6/29/2010 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Russell said...

Huh. And here I thought I could direct my browser to anywhere on the intertubes.

I had no idea that B'ob's Evil Mind Rays (tm) were locking my browser to make me read his site, and stripping away anything I might have read in the past from any other source! It must be good to have such power.

Thanks, anon, for showing us the truth!

I wonder which set of laws is she talking about? And, is she assuming that the laws of physics as we know them are the same across all space and time? The latter is a reasonable assumption, but it helps stating that.

"Ursula Goodenough"

I have to agree with Van.

6/29/2010 09:40:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"you MUST be writing at least partly to the lost, to the fence-sitter, to the troll."

No, not really. Again, I would never recommend my writing, only offer it. Which is why to argue with me is to miss the point, for who argues with an offer? Rather, one just politely declines it.

6/29/2010 09:43:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

"Aquinas had the proper qualifications to approach the subject, in that he was objective, dispassionate, and pure, an adjective that the tenured would just laugh at as irrelevant at best."

Yeh, more likely just a snide little snigger.

(Message in a bottle to anthropologists of the future: If we don’t make it through, all you need to know about modernity can be learned from watching a few episodes of "Family Guy", but be warned, the modernity virus is highly contagious – in the event of laughter, see your friendly neighborhood Philosopher ASAP!)

6/29/2010 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

The b-hole wrote:

And you Bob are an anti-leftist troll.

Everyone has a duty to fight evil, and "leftism" or "progressivism" is simply the same old antichristic channel of darkness we've been watching for 75 centuries or more.

Unfortunately this book now costs $350. It should be mandatory reading for 21 year-olds before the left gets their claws into them.

Finally, leftism emerges from a cosmic beam of darkness that ensnares millions of people who are more or less unwitting victims -- for them there is plenty of hope. Some individuals however seem simply beyond the pale -- personification of evil.

Anyhow the bottom line is that leftism deserve every ounce of ridicule and opprobrium we can hurl at it with our quick little coon paws. Even more than Islamism (with the exception of the most extreme Islamists, which are essentially identical to the hardest of hard leftists in any case in that both come close to the human embodiment of pure evil).

6/29/2010 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

since he's going to keep posting it again anyway

I wasn't actually, twice is my limit. But I figured you couldn't stay away from the topic.

You left out the link to the paper on vertical and horizontal transcendence. Oh well, I guess the curious will be able to find it.

Thus, applied to the domain of spirit, sincere humility is the minimum requirement...

Rather, that's my job -- to reconcile the knowledge of those who truly know, and in turn to reconcile that with what science "knows."

Oh yes, we can see that you are just brimming over with humility.

Despite your railing at the "tenured", you apparently believe yourself to be a board-certified metaphysician with more qualifications to talk about the foundations of reality than other people. Forgive me if it's hard to reconcile that attitude with a stance of humility.

6/29/2010 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"Oh yes, we can see that you are just brimming over with humility."

Oh, you have no idea!

6/29/2010 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

with more qualifications to talk about the foundations of reality than other people

Look the man is rumored to have met Toots long ago. What more qualification could one ask for?

Actually the biggest qualification by far is quite frankly that Bob is completely unlike you.

6/29/2010 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Ok, my notepad’s full... rather than add them all, which would amount to reposting the entire post, I’ll settle for the last from Schuon,

“The soul must be to the intelligence what beauty is to truth, and this is what we have called the 'moral qualification' that should accompany the 'intellectual qualification.'””

Because it implies all of the rest.

A real top notcher today.

6/29/2010 09:56:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"we can see that you are just brimming over with humility."

Well, I certainly have the humility to know that under no circumstances could I ever have any positive effect on you. I am powerless.

Conversely, you said yesterday that you specifically come here not to learn, but to instruct us on the nature of reality and to save my readers from my deceptive clutches.

Projection. Is there anything it can't do?

6/29/2010 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Humility:

"What makes you think I'm seeking help from you? What a strange notion. I do think I might be of some use to you and your readers, by pointing out the manifest falsehoods, contradictions, and poorly-thought-out ideas regularly deployed here."

6/29/2010 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Wow. I think bh might even be more skilled at missing the point than even Ray was.

wv:basmool
One of the best not-really-a-word-that-should-definitely-be-a-word words ever!

6/29/2010 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

The whole "humility" thing is quite a larf coming from anon. He urges us to read Ursula Anrdress (Pussy Galore? Whatever.) who figured out the meaning of life and the cosmos all on her own. Meanwhile Bob's posts are 95% synthesis and interpretations of the greatest minds in history (e.g., Aquinas) for the benefit of those of us to slow-witted or busy to consume massive, dense volumes in a single gulp. Has Bob developed original ideas? Certainly he has created a unique synthesis of great ideas at minimum. This Ursula Goodbody person makes Bob look like the monk who peels the potatoes in the humility department.

That's the thing with scientistic leftists: they believe that they have the ability and the entitlement to simply ignore centuries of human thought and just dream up some preposterous explanation which is considerably less compelling than what is on offer from the Australian aborigines (and I mean that -- they are much more subtle thinkers than the likes of Steven Pinker).

6/29/2010 10:06:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Actually, I think of it as cleaning windows as opposed to peeling potatoes....

6/29/2010 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I might add that only our humorless and irony-deficient trolls lack the ability to discern between humility and playful bluster. Who could read the blog description and the personal profile and not know that?

6/29/2010 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger Sal said...

What is it with trolls that they always think Bob is a cult leader?
Is that the only kind of leader/teacher they're used to?

Anon- Bob is the pepper jack seasoning on the Dorito of (n). He's not the corn chip of theology, but the flavor enhancer.
Like popcorn salt, we just shake out as much as we find useful.

6/29/2010 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Come to think of it, I don't know about "a unique synthesis of great ideas." I just know that I try to punch up these old truths with a few gags thrown in.

6/29/2010 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

THUS SAYETH GAGDAD

That should be a clue....

6/29/2010 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger RegretTheSin said...

Ever notice that Leftwing attacks on the right aren't simply vicious but more precisely demon-like? Their design to warp anything good only reflects their own dark souls. Repuglicans by Steve Tatham (Author), Pete Von Sholly (Illustrator)is their latest soul reflector project. Another example of how their blatant evil minds work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT_9GSNYwoE&feature=player_embedded

6/29/2010 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Well unique for me, anyhow. I've got companies to run (i.e., not a whole lotta free time), and believe me if there was a more efficient and enjoyable synthesis on the web or anywhere else I'd be there instead of here.

Nobody out there that I know of has quite the same blend of eleven verbs and vices...

6/29/2010 10:28:00 AM  
Blogger walt said...

Sacred is an ontological category, not a side effect of math.

A lot of the attacks on this blog stem from a failure to understand the "gist" of that sentence -- and not just understand any-old-way, but in the sense of from experience.

Another case of the overlooked obvious.

6/29/2010 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Gotta say, though, anon is one tone-deaf troll. The stuff he offers here reminds me of the doofus who blithely strolls into a Women's Studies seminar in a No Fat Chicks T-shirt.

It's hard to imagine "not getting it" to that extent. I mean, I GET leftism. I get the arguments for socialism, multiculturalism, and all the other -isms. A few leftist arguments actually make a bit of sense. The point is I'm not totally clueless as to the finer points of dialectical materialism or queer critical theory -- I just know enough to know that those ideas are built upon false assumptions -- they wrong from the start.

Anon on the other hand repeatedly demonstrates -- his protestations to the contrary notwithstanding -- that he really does not get the ideas presented here at all. Which is a pity. He could probably be a decent guy/girl if it weren't for the spiritual autism.

6/29/2010 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Bob is the Gagdadfather that makes you an offer you CAN refuse.

Which apparently means you can't in leftistspeak.

All hail the Gagdadfather!

Hi Van! (continued from previous post).

6/29/2010 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Walt said:
"Another case of the overlooked obvious."

But why look at the obvious when you can be oblividiously livid? :^)

Hi Walt!

6/29/2010 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

My publisher placed a limit on the comedy, but it is now possible for the author to alter his amazon page, so a while back, I put in a more fitting bio:

"Robert W. Godwin, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist, independent scholar, and gentleman loafer. Since the publication of his new testavus for the rest of us, One Cosmos Under God, Dr. Godwin has been operating the One Cosmos blog, with well over a thousand posts which track his practice of sliding down the celestial firepole each morning, seizing the wheel of the cosmic bus, and channeling the roaring torrent of hyperborean gnosis into the feeble stream of cyberspace. To no one's surprise, a benign cult has now formed around this mysterious and all-powerful author, who is Laughty Revelator, Thrice-Cleared Operating Thetan, and Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler of the Transdimensional Disorder of the Friendly Sons & Daughters of the Cosmic Raccoons. He lives with his wife and five year-old son in a doublewide cloud located just over the subjective horizon, and is the sworn enemy of Deepak Chopra."

6/29/2010 10:48:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

A slacktastic blurb. Wise to leave Dupree ummentioned.

6/29/2010 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger Russell said...

"Who could read the blog description and the personal profile and not know that?"

Well, no one has accused trolls of having a sense of the absurd.

6/29/2010 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Speaking of Dupree, is it true that Ace hardware has expressed a possible interest in making him their new spokesman?

6/29/2010 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Next time we have a get together at the Longwinded One’s highly secret and super secret Fortress of Solitude, I am definitely asking Sal and NB to collaborate on the hor'devours.

6/29/2010 11:04:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

Sorry, I didn't claim any humility for myself. Bob did. And now apparently you want to have some sort of I'm-much-more-humble-than-you pissing contest.

NB: That's the thing with scientistic leftists: they believe that they have the ability and the entitlement to simply ignore centuries of human thought and just dream up some preposterous explanation...

Maybe your remark above could apply to someone like Dawkins, Goodenough, at least, is not ignoring centuries of human thought, but trying to reconcile it with science -- which has changed what we know about the world rather dramatically, if you've been paying attention.

And since when does "centuries of human thought" justify anything? Islam has been around for centuries, Buddhism has been around considerably longer than Christianity -- does that make them automatically valid, or less preposterous than anything else?

6/29/2010 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger walt said...

Hey, Cap'n!

Weird, yapping with each other in the daylight, huh?

6/29/2010 11:25:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I'll just say that I truly dislike anon, and that in numberless comments he has expressed his dislike and even contempt for me, so I think the rest is pretty much commentary.

There is a critical element of truth that is inaccessible in the absence of sympathy, so I am happy to concede that my lack of resonance with anon bars me from imbibing from what is undoubtedly a bottomless well of wisdom. I just wish he would start his own blog, so that he could offer his wisdom to those who actually want it.

6/29/2010 11:32:00 AM  
Blogger mushroom said...

...stop reading the moment you encounter a statement that is irretrievably stupid

I've been practicing this; there should be a name for it. It applies to a many Christian authors.

I took a couple of days off, and I'm way behind reading the posts and comments. I can't believe Duane Allman and Porter Wagoner ended up in the same thread -- too much. You have to work hard to keep the cult mindset thing going.

6/29/2010 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Walt-

Aye. I'm enjoying our "heatwave." Supposed to get up to 70F on Thursday and who can sleep in these ovenlike conditions?

6/29/2010 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Mushroom-

That was rather odd to see in the same post-post. And no mention of Dolly Parton?

Dolly and Porter were, um, inseperable for quite a few years.

6/29/2010 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Those psycho-country albums Wagoner made between '66 and '73 are a hoot. They straddle the boundary between gothic and kitsch, sort of like a Tarantino screenplay...

6/29/2010 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Bob-

I guess we jest ain't Goodenough for Anon. Sniff.

6/29/2010 11:46:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

LOL! Psycho-country is right.
Personally, I much prefer Emmilou Harris and Gram Parsons as a much more dynamic duo. Less psycho and more cosmic, IMO.
Not that there's anything wrong with the psycho wing of country per se.

6/29/2010 11:52:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I particularly loved the commentary on teaching, Bob. "Love of truth" and "love of men." Shared with DH; he agreed that it was good stuff. I know it's his goal to impart n, not merely k.

This participation in the impartation of n places those in this calling at a much higher level of accountability. Deepak, watch your back!

(From James...) "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

And I'm loving Sal's perfect analogy! You should add it to your blog "reviews." LOL!

6/29/2010 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

...stop reading the moment you encounter a statement that is irretrievably stupid

If there's one piece of advice/wisdom I wish Anon would take, it's that one. Obviously, he finds much here that he considers irretrievably stupid.

6/29/2010 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Much? How about all.

No, wait. Granthole.

6/29/2010 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Tangential,
Scientists stunned to discover that minds are mysterious.

“It’s daunting to think that we’re slipping in and out so frequently and we never notice that we were gone,” Dr. Schooler says. “We have this intuition that the one thing we should know is what’s going on in our minds: I think, therefore I am. It’s the last bastion of what we know, and yet we don’t even know that so well.”

6/29/2010 12:10:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Perhaps that's the key. If only he could rescue Granthole from your malicious clutches, perhaps his work here would be done, since clearly the rest of us are beyond saving.

6/29/2010 12:12:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Hi Sal-

Good analogy! Bob is like good talk-O seasoning (and guacamOle!).
Which is a must for any decent talk-O.

6/29/2010 12:19:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Julie-

I know it's not intentional (on either the scientist's or reporter's part) but that's hilarious!

It's always "daunting" when reality doesn't line up with their scientistic opinions.
Even more so when the scientists still reach the wrong conclusion.

6/29/2010 12:27:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Ok... after the mosel of ‘I think, therefore I am’ that Julie passed on, I can’t resist a whiff of anunce’s hygiene paper. Regarding,

"...stop reading the moment you encounter a statement that is irretrievably stupid..."

, a good indicator of this point being close at hand is when the author engages in typical educationista speak, such as,

"Transcendence is explored from two perspectives:..." and "...Each is evaluated from the perspectives of aesthetics and hierarchy..."

You can pretty much bet that nothing but drivel is going to follow from that, and indeed it does, as the first part is the first line of anunces ursula’s paper.

There are many points where the standard issue sane person would note that the shark had been jumped and close the silly pdf - especially when you keep in mind that anunce hadn't even read this steaming pile of droppings, he just resonated with the aroma and felt the urge to pass it, but doing so would mean missing out an some really prime examples of stupid tenured tricks, such as this one,

"...Having written a book called “The Sacred Depths of Nature,” (Goodenough, 2000), the etymology and the meaning of the word sacred often come up in discussions. To be sure, its standard usage resides in vertical hierarchical contexts, the notion being that things become sacred, and hence shed their contingency, only when consecrated by a higher Purpose, a Sacralizer. But if we are considering the use of transcendence to mean a horizontal orientation, thereby rotating the concept by 90 degrees, then sacredness must also be reconfigured. If we are to sacralize Nature, as she comes to
us, then this entails rotating the concept of hierarchy by 90 degrees and locating our arche in the hier of the natural world. We can then, as Kalton puts it, “celebrate our status as members of the biosystem as a sort of homecoming.
”...
" (emphasis added to highlight the hilarity)

Other than providing a means for a truly rousing game of buzz-word bingo, this paper is truly worth less (less than what is unnecessary to indicate, pick it, it's worth less than that too). To put it in a way anunce might enjoy, having dispensed with reality at the outset as this paper does, then just as a physicist pitches any paper that begins with "Surefire design for a perpetual motion machine", any human being seeking enlightenment on transcendence should do the same on coming across phrases such as “Horizontal transcendence” or any of the passage above.

For those of you who are enured to the dangers of the arbitrary and who are fascinated by the tenured absurd, the closing attempt at profundity with "Juanita" isn't to be missed. However, for those of you who prefer your transcendence with just a bit less fecal aroma... I'd pass.

Gagdad, if you want to delete this for general aromatic purposes, I fully understand.

6/29/2010 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

Van-

Sacre blue! How would Chopra quatumtate that? :^)

6/29/2010 12:50:00 PM  
Blogger f/zero said...

stop reading ... moment ... irretrievably stupid ...

You mean I'm not ADD after all? What a relief to know that

Squirrel!

6/29/2010 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

"I'm not necessarily criticizing Goodenough. She's obviously a sincere person who is trying to figure things out on her own, but that's a big part of the problem. Again, intellects far more exalted than hers have already figured it out, e.g., Aquinas, Eckhart, Schuon, etc."

Indeed, she completely ignores the evidence.
It's as if she assigns herself a crime scene that has already been worked on by the world's best detectives and totally disregards all the evidence and all the wisdom those detectives have documented or obtained.

Thus, she is more clueless as a result since she disregards the best clues and essentially makes up her own a la L. Ron Hubbardishly.

Incidently, she is also disregarding authentic faith since faith IS evidence of things hoped for.
Real things with real clues not the 90 degrees of seperation BS she is selling.

In effect creating a new crime scene as a distraction, which is all fun n' games until someone gets crucified.

6/29/2010 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"locating our arche in the hier of the natural world."

Doesn't this work out to a tautology? Or just, heck, we'll call it sacred and therefore it'll BE sacred.

6/29/2010 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

"And I notice that Ricky "Raccoon" is dabbling in Orthodoxy!"

That does it.
I'm canceling my membership and demand a full refund this instant. Bob, please cut me a check for $0.00.
And you spelt babbling rong.

6/29/2010 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"arbitrary"

Yeah, that's the word. :)

6/29/2010 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"Bob, please cut me a check for $0.00."

LOL!

6/29/2010 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger Russell said...

"Bob, please cut me a check for $0.00."

This is the bestest cult evar!

Not only is B'ob punning by the seat of his soul, he also gives away free money to the devout.

Vertical transcendence or double your money back. It must be a swindle!

6/29/2010 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

While no one is permitted to join this cult but is always free to leave, I don't know if I have insufficient funds to cover the check.

But I can promise eternity while you wait, or triple your lousy karma back.

6/29/2010 02:15:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Speaking of eternity while you wait, I was just thinking earlier today that the real key to patience as a virtue is nothing so simple as being able to delay gratification. Rather, it is having the ability (or more truly, grace) to appreciate the Vertical in each moment wherever and whenever one is, even (or especially) when there is something one anticipates at some point in the future. In a way, it goes hand in hand with Hope.

6/29/2010 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

I'll just say that I truly dislike anon

OK, now you're hurting my feelings.

Not really. I'm not trying to win popularity contests. In fact, the more you dislike me, the better I'm doing my job.

Socrates did not make himself very popular with his probing of his fellow citizen's assumptions. They killed him for it, and I don't really expect better treatment than he got.

6/29/2010 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Or perhaps IOW, Patience is the result of Virtue.

6/29/2010 02:46:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Anon,
Yeah, 'cause you're totally as timeless and brilliant as Socrates. Someday in the future, someone will publish the One Cosmos dialogues, wherein Anon and Granthole will shine as the voices of wisdom, light and reason, whilst the rest of us will be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Bummer for us, I guess.

6/29/2010 02:48:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

a nothing croaked "...I don't really expect better treatment than he ..."

Ok anunce, now that's disgusting.

Socrates questioned his fellow Athenians as a way of seeking to understand Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good... Virtues you mock and deplore.

You aren't even fit to pronounce his name, let alone understand, or seek to understand what he gave his life for.

To put yourself in a sentence with him "...Meseemed I saw
A slug crawl slavering o'er a flower's petals!"


Idiot montfleury.

6/29/2010 03:02:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

They call me Mister Phaedrus.


No, it can't be true -- WV says panties.

6/29/2010 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie said "...wherein Anon and Granthole will shine as the voices of wisdom..."

Heh, more like Euthydemus and Dionysodorus.

6/29/2010 03:10:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

In 24 hours, anonymous has gone from a mere victim of my tyranny to a martyr. Congrats! Perhaps they'll name a school after you in Gaza!

6/29/2010 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

I come here because I like the company, and to learn from people who it seems think along the lines I do.

Anon, none of the readers who come and visit here often, unless they are trolls, will be influenced by your wisdom, except to shake their heads in pity or disgust.

A lot of us have already been where you are, but thankfully we've moved on.

You should spend more time working on yourself, rather than trying to inject poison onto other people. I mean, how sad is it that you spend so much of your time attacking this Blogger? I can only surmise that you're afraid people of your stripe might actually defect to the light side. You're afraid of this philosophy.

6/29/2010 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"They killed him for it, and I don't really expect better treatment than he got."

Van, do we have any hemlock left, or did we use it all on Nagarjuna?

6/29/2010 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Bob,
For that to happen, our heads would've had to explode. So far, he's a total dud.

OT, I think it was last week you were mentioning needing a graphic to represent how as we go higher, the vertical space becomes bigger even as it comes to a point. How about this?

6/29/2010 03:17:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Man, I can't keep up the typing speed with kid on my lap; above comment was in reference to having a school named after him...

6/29/2010 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Cool site. I like this pic too.

6/29/2010 03:20:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

I like that one; somehow I missed it before.

Speaking of photos, meant to say I like that one of FL, too. They grow so fast!

6/29/2010 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

If I were anon, I'd say "Bob, your boy looks just like you -- he's slimy, he's all wet, and he's close to a toad."

6/29/2010 03:32:00 PM  
Blogger Mikal said...

Julie said,

the real key to patience as a virtue is nothing so simple as being able to delay gratification. Rather, it is having the ability (or more truly, grace) to appreciate the Vertical in each moment wherever and whenever one is, even (or especially) when there is something one anticipates at some point in the future.

Perfect.

6/29/2010 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

I don't claim to be as good as Socrates, only to be trying to do the same kind of things he did. Presumably you can understand the difference.

Van: other than inside your tiny mind, where did I mock and deplore Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good? Presumably you have quotes to back this up. If you think mocking you is the same as mocking those things, you've got a much bigger ego problem than I do.

6/29/2010 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger lesliegodwin said...

Julie,
They grow so fast once they hit about 4. Before then, it can be mighty slow! LOL

Anon,
OMG, what a load you are! I don't usually bother with anyone who doesn't use even a fake name, but puh-leeeze! Is that really the best you can do? Watch a few reruns of Sanford and Son and at least come up with a few humorous insults!

Are you this clueless about all other people, or is this some sort of "father issue" you aren't trying to work out with GB? At least I tried to work out mine with him! LOL

6/29/2010 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Big difference, anon. Socrates knew that he didn't know.

6/29/2010 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Anon, you did compare yourself to Socrates. And now you claim to be trying to do the same thing.

What would that be?

6/29/2010 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Oh yeah, GB - there is that. A whole universe of difference.

6/29/2010 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Mrs. G is right. Why can we never have a clever or witty troll? Why are they always such earnest and humorless loads?

6/29/2010 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I think we should adopt the Jim Rome rule for trolls:

Have a take and do not suck or you will get run.

6/29/2010 03:53:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And no argument from authority via link, or you will get run.

6/29/2010 03:56:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And if you are not funny, don't try to be, because that's even less funny than being unfunny.

6/29/2010 03:58:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

And if you are not funny, don't try to be, because that's even less funny than being unfunny.

Soooo true. It's just embarassing.

6/29/2010 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Leslie - it already seems fast! On Friday it will be a month, and he's squeezing out of his newborn clothes. The whole span is both completely timeless and lightning fast, but then that's how it always is, I guess :)

6/29/2010 04:13:00 PM  
Blogger lesliegodwin said...

Julie,
I'm truly glad you are having that kind of experience with Liam. I shouldn't expect everyone to go through what we did! That's good for me to rememeber.

6/29/2010 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Gagdad said "Van, do we have any hemlock left, or did we use it all on Nagarjuna?"

(Shhh... I've almost got the wv: delivery system operating... a little more tweaking of the javascript should do it....)

wv:lypunto
(just can't resist giving away clues, yes the liars will be punted, now shush already)

6/29/2010 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

I shouldn't expect everyone to go through what we did! That's good for me to remember.

Same here - I keep forgetting you guys had to live with the Infant Death Ray! L has his moments, but they really are just moments. This whole thing has been way too ridiculously easy; sooner or later, it's all going to come back and get me. If he takes after me, the challenge will be when he's mobile and quiet...

6/29/2010 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Dog news:

Baxter our Wheaten Terrier passed his second grade obedience class tonight while baby Katie looked on from the stands with her Mom.

While at the dog center I saw a full-blooded 2 year old greyhound. I'd never seen one up close before. They are magnificent. Talk about your laws of physics!

6/29/2010 04:36:00 PM  
Blogger lesliegodwin said...

NB-Wow, that's no small thing for a Wheaten! Congratulations!

Aren't greys the sweetest? They call them 35 MPH couch potatoes because they can run that fast in just a couple of strides, but the rest of the day, they only want to nap. Great Danes are supposed to be part Greyhound and part Mastiff.

6/29/2010 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "Presumably you can understand the difference."

Again, your inability to read is on full display, what I said was,

"To put yourself in a sentence with him "...Meseemed I saw A slug crawl slavering o'er a flower's petals!""

Good God! I hope you wouldn't be idiot enough to compare yourself to him, just including yourself in the same sentence is beyond the pale.

"...where did I mock and deplore Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good?"

Where have you not? In what have you said that you have not mocked and deplored Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good? You really do have zero conception of their meaning, have you?

In what have you stated anything to acknowledge, confirm or support Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good? Socrates made a point of beginning his lines of questioning by seeking definitions, in seeking out what others knew, or thought they knew, and strove to find whether or not their understanding agreed with reality... you do nothing but mock, deplore and deride other peoples reverence for Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good - do you really think there is a difference?

I know you've done your very best not to state any of your beliefs or to answer any questions, but evasion and omission provides no cover to the liar. As with most spoiled children all you are capable of is nastiness, and you think to escape judgment on technicalities of "show me where I said it!", however, and I'm sure it'll come as a surprise to you, when you promote relativism, or deride those who oppose it, you absolutely do mock and deplore Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good.

Your words have meaning, and it shouldn't need to be said, but your meaning has meaning, and when you mock those who are seeking after what is True, who are trying to better discern what is virtuous, when you say something like yesterday's "I sure wish the opposition to empire was as unified and dangerous as the author implies", with the paper's reference to 'empire' meaning all forms of capitol "L" Liberalism (look up the meaning), when you pass along, with no hint of denunciation, the notion that,

"Realism is correlated with depression, which is not conducive to success.”

, of reality being bad for happiness or that it is not knowable, you most certainly do mock Justice, Virtue, Wisdom and the Good. You may think you are cute and clever, but you do nothing but darken and make corruption of your soul - thankfully we know you through nothing but html.

Ugh.

Go back and actually read Plato... it might do you some good.

6/29/2010 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Julie said "The whole span is both completely timeless and lightning fast, but then that's how it always is, I guess :)"

Oh, you can say that again! I just got off Skype with Ryan at Lackland AFB (pardon a proud papa gloat, he just surged ahead to top in his class!), geez, he's going to be 22 on the first!

Lightning speed! (except for that whole 13 - 17 yr old stretch... oh man does that part drag by!).

I can still remember the infant cloths & wraps... and little corn nibblet toes... soak it up!

6/29/2010 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

A picture from the other universe, the Gunslinger has a pic that nails it... why so serious, indeed.

6/29/2010 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Van: Well, according to Socrates (in the Meno I believe), all men desire the good. So I sort of thought it went without saying, especially to a classical scholar such as yourself, but if you like: I acknowledge, confirm and support Justice, Virtue, Wisdom, the Good, motherhood, apple pie, baseball, puppies, and the 4th of July. Happy?

6/29/2010 06:20:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Anon - you mouth buzz words, but you don't know what they mean.

6/29/2010 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Van, congrats on son Ryan! Woohoo! Re. the little stuff, I'm trying to soak in it until my fingers get pruney. I know that in a blink or two I'll be scratching my head wondering just how it's possible he's already graduating from this, that, and the other.

Reminds me, I meant to say Happy Birthday! to Mizze yesterday.

Also meant to ask Rick how his boy is doing? I hope all went well.

Anywho...

6/29/2010 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

Just like muslims who chant, "allah is merciful," right before they cut off your head.

6/29/2010 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"I acknowledge, confirm and support Justice, Virtue, Wisdom, the Good....

This evades the money question: nominalist or realist?

6/29/2010 06:32:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "...but if you like: I acknowledge, confirm and support Jus..."

fool, scroll down if you've already forgotten what Gagdad said about humor,

"if you are not funny, don't try to be, because that's even less funny than being unfunny"

, you suck at it. Stop. You have stated no beliefs, no claim of or respect for knowledge, no measure of truth or respect for it or those who seek after it.

Your comments drown out the pitiful scratching of your words.

Run along scratch.

6/29/2010 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

Anon, I know you are all wrapped up in something that seems important to you, but why do you feel we need to be involved in it? I mean, I am much more disturbed that Gagdad doesn't like the Vanilla Fudge than whether he is humble or fair minded concerning Ursula. While I try to keep my grace by focusing on positive thought, words and deeds, I too become flummoxed by Gagdad's inability to grasp the full meaning of "You Keep Me Hanging On". At some point you just have to accept that Gagdad's omnipotence and deep insight is flawed when it comes the Vanilla Fudge. We are all human and we all have blind spots.

I'm going to take a guess here and say the Vanilla Fudge are better known and understood than Ursula. Sadly, I think the Vanilla Fudge's cosmic imprint will outlast the Goodenough philosopher. Its really hard to compete with true art, especially when it hits the Top Ten. Just saying.

6/29/2010 07:10:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

LOL @ Tigtog

6/29/2010 07:15:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

This is mutiny! Anon, back me up here!

6/29/2010 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Right. I feel some objectivity is in order here. Having never before heard the sounds of The Vanilla Fudge until about two minutes ago, and therefore being an entirely neutral party until same amount of time...

Sorry, Tigtog, but I think you're off your rocker on that one. Just no. Also, those dancers are not helping their case (in the live version of "You Keep Me Hanging On," which comes across as sacrilicious). I don't know if its the clothes or the awkward gyrations, but just no.

6/29/2010 07:28:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Apropos. I'm pretty sure blackmaher could have written that first one...

6/29/2010 07:31:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

He's doing ok, Julie. Just very sore.

6/29/2010 07:34:00 PM  
Blogger Dianne said...

But Julie, compared to Ursula Goodenough .....

6/29/2010 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Rick - glad to hear he's doing okay; I hope he has a speedy recovery.

Dianne - oh, that's tough. If those are the only options, I'd hav to choose the Fudge. There's not much of a beat, but you can writhe to it. I don't know that the same can be said for Goodenough. If you set her stuff to music, I'm pretty sure your brain will fall out or at the very least one may suffer hysterical deafness.

6/29/2010 07:41:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

"You Keep Me Hanging On,"

Ummm... I liked Rod Stewart's cover of it.

sorta. sometimes. depends on the mood.

e.

blues.

But... then again, I don't like fudge, and completely don't understand wanting to ruin perfectly good vanilla by mixing it in with it.

anywho....

6/29/2010 07:43:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

Dear Julie, those young women gyrating were known as "Go Go Girls". They represent the Vestal Virgins of psychedelic rock. Their movements bring deeper meaning to the words and percussion of the song. Their Go Go Boots were always white to convey purity and innocence. Their heavy eyeliner was designed to give them that "Bambi" look of startled discovery.

As for the artist's dress, may I point out that the guitar player is wearing a robe. This conveys deep religiosity. If you look closer you will note that he looks like Alton Brown of "Good Eats". There is meaning here too, but to date no one has been able to explain it. A miracle? Time travel? The possibilities are daunting. As for the organ player, his dress speaks of sophistication and knowledge. The fact that his lips are not synchronized with the words sung is a clue to his magical powers of deception. Again, no one knows how he does it. Spooky, no?

I recommend that you review this tape several times to discover the messages sent in another time. They are telling us something today and tomorrow, you just need to open yourself to receive the wisdom.

6/29/2010 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Ooh, missed that, both of 'em,
Happy Birthday Mizzee!
Rick, good to hear about the soreness.

well... not good that he's sore... good to hear he's only sore... after the fact....

(yeah, I'm always late with b-day cards too)

6/29/2010 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Bottom line: don't do a remake unless you can improve on the original. Here's a stripped down version with only the funk brothers, minus the lead vocal. Not my favorite Motown production, but at least it swings.

6/29/2010 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Tigtog said "Their Go Go Boots were always white to convey purity and innocence. Their heavy eyeliner was designed to give them that "Bambi" look of startled discovery."

Huh. And all this time I just thought is was as trampy as they thought they could get away with at the time. Go figure.

"The fact that his lips are not synchronized with the words sung is a clue to his magical powers of deception. Again, no one knows how he does it. Spooky, no?"

Yesss.... there was much magic that went on in those pre-80's Milli & Vanilli days (no fudge jokes, please).

;- )

6/29/2010 07:55:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Another great Funk Brothers backing track.

6/29/2010 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Tigtog, while your breakdown does provide some elucidation, it's just not enough. They're still Chock Full O' NO™.

You, however, are hilarious ;)

6/29/2010 08:12:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To Julie re: "They're still Chock Full O' NO™.

Maybe an explanation of their name, Vanilla Fudge, is in order. You might have noticed that the artists are white. You also might have noticed that they are performing a Motown hit. Motown was a black artist label. So you have white artists covering a black artist's song in a psychedelic motif, you automatically think food. Right? Remember, the guitar player who looks like Alton Brown? How was Alton Brown able to create a white psychedelic band in the 60s and host a food show in the 90s? No one knows. The riddle of Vanilla Fudge continues to perplex people to this day.

6/29/2010 08:27:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Is it true that the Secret Service code name for Obama is Vanilla Fudge?

6/29/2010 08:37:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Chocolate Watchband. That's how garage rock is done.

6/29/2010 08:43:00 PM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To Gagdad re:

"Is it true that the Secret Service code name for Obama is Vanilla Fudge?"

No, from what I have heard its either Famous Amos or Mr. Skittles.

6/29/2010 08:46:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Garage Rock 101.

6/29/2010 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

This evades the money question: nominalist or realist?

If I give the right answer, will you like me? (in Sally Field voice) Really like me?

Oh well, not much hope of that anyway. Short answer: it's a dumb question (or more precisely, a stale question), and I refuse to take one side or another of it. A better answer requires more time, space, and receptive audience than I'm going to find here.

Re Vanilla Fudge, not that into it. Early Dead or 13th Floor Elevators is more my cup of peyote tea.

6/29/2010 08:54:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Not a very convincing evasion of your evasion, but I'm sure you'll have no difficulty evading that as well.

6/29/2010 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Besides, everyone but you knows that you have answered the question, both clearly and concisely.

6/29/2010 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "A better answer requires more time, space, and receptive audience than I'm going to find here..."

Also requires someone who cares about what they think and why, where you are there. Doubt they'll talk to you though.

Coward.

"Run Awayyy!!!"

6/29/2010 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

There's always a practical side to leftists refusing to openly reveal their beliefs, because if they did, normal people would be repelled. This is why no liberal politician would ever cite, say, Rawls as an influence, but conservatives are happy to cite Madison, deTocqueville, Hayek, Voegelin, Kirk, Friedman, and so many others. And this is why liberalism is so intellectually incoherent, because they have to dance around the question of their sources and principles.

6/29/2010 09:22:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

Nagarjuna! I knew I forgot one! To join the canon with Ray and the Integralist.

Granthole? Who's that? And what happened to the aforementioned Blind Troll?

Anyhow, I am here to induct Anon into the rolls as a commenter of note here. Congratulations comrade.

So, my leftist beliefs? Power. The power to get tenure, have hankyk panky at the faculty meetings, spend your money, and live high at your expense. Inshallah, and good night.

6/29/2010 10:25:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Oh please. Not every philosophical position fits on the back of a Crackerjack box.

If you like, I'll firmly reject the naive Platonic realism that appears to be the only acceptable view around here. So you can hate me for that, rather than "evasiveness".

6/29/2010 10:34:00 PM  
Blogger Christopher Olson said...

"That which is not" is speaking to you all from the abyss. You cannot argue with that which is not. It is impossible. It simply exists to negate that which is positive, deriving its "existence" only by this negation.

It hungers only to hunger, not to be filled - living only to die, not to live.

Anyway, I believe it is succeeding in its purpose which is to distract and delay real constructive discourse and tempt you into wasting your energies fighting a shadow.

It seeks only to drain.

6/29/2010 10:37:00 PM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

So, I've been reading this Buddhist sect leader who says that being able to listen to and converse with both the high spirits of saints and the suffering spirits in Hell, has given him an unique insight and perspective on life on Earth. I am sure if what he experiences is true, it must have that effect.

But I can experience both of the above on the comment pages of a rambling conservative blog. That is pretty awesome too. It really does inspire one to fear Hell and look toward Heaven - the Hell and the Heaven inside our hearts, more exactly.

6/30/2010 01:01:00 AM  
Blogger ge said...

Final Jeopardy ?:

who produced-directed the first Vanilla Fudge sides??
no googling now

think
Reader of the Pack

a-and which Brit guit whiz did the VF rhythm section team up with in the 70s?

[sir jeffrey beck, mbe]

6/30/2010 04:52:00 AM  
Blogger Tigtog said...

To anon re:

"A better answer requires more time, space, and receptive audience than I'm going to find here."

You Keep Me Hanging On. Vanilla Fudge once again becomes our spirit guide. Strange the power and utility of Vanilla Fudge. They are an eternal divining rod.

6/30/2010 04:59:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Christopher:

Very well said, but you could only say it so well because he embodies it so well. But I think Magnus takes it one step further, in the sense that anon instructs on levels much deeper than he could ever appreciate. At the very least, he is a daily reminder of there but for the grace of God....

Having said that, anyone who derives emotional satisfaction from trying to engage him is, as Christopher suggests, being seduced by the abyss. Thus, for those who do wish to engage, I advise you to keep your responses brief, pithy, humorous, and insulting, but in a detached manner. To not be detached is to risk attachment to the darkness.

And I would say the same thing about politics. As I've said before, most people who are "political junkies" derive an emotional thrill out of the polarized combat, instead of simply dispassionately advocating truth. As soon as the former happens, you are pulled from the center to the periphery, and become dependent upon that which you supposedly despise, as we see in anon, who makes no secret of the fact that he specifically comes here in order to be despised. The point is again to properly dislike him, but in a dispassionate way. This is one of the deeper meaning of not hating one's enemies, because in so doing, the enemy gets into you.

6/30/2010 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Or, in the words of Churchill, it costs you nothing to be polite while shooting a man.

6/30/2010 05:35:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

The nothing said “Not every philosophical position fits on the back of a Crackerjack box.”

Actually, the true ones do. They can be easily summarized, and because they are true they can be explored to vast never ending depths, to which the longwinded rejoice.

It’s the lies and rube Goldberg obfuscations that cannot – see your own thoughts for reference anunce.

Metaphysics:
* Reality really exists.
* Everything that exists, exists as something, and cannot in the same context, exist as something else.
* Consciousness is the faculty through which we are aware of reality, by way of differentiating those things which exist within it.

Religion:
* (Not my dept, but...) The means of having a personal relationship with the realization that all Truth is One, and is the core of life and of our very souls.

Philosophy:
* Man is born with no innate knowledge, it is created through the chosen (active or passive) direction of his awareness within reality, differentiating and integrating his perceptions by his reasoning into an ever deeper knowledge of it.
* To live, men must choose to manipulate reality through their reasoning into the materials needed to survive, and those materials – property - exist only because of his chosen actions, and so, by that Right, are the property of he who created them.
* Law is the indispensible tool for ensuring that the interactions of those in society do not infringe on the rights and property of other.

Economics:
* Property is created by the choices of those with an interest and knowledge of their materials and needs involved.
* The Marketplace is where, based on their information about each other’s needs, men can exchange their property in a way that better serves the needs of each other; these decisions – though mostly uncoordinated – are mutually complementary and increase the available wealth of that society.
* To the extent that something impedes, disrupts or prevents the exchange of information and the production of property - market choices will not correspond to real needs, resulting in wasted time, effort and materials and ensuring that more needs will go unmet.

Reality and Truth are simple, leftism requires thousands of pages to hide their intent to evade the requirements of reality and truth.

6/30/2010 06:38:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Gagdad said “This is one of the deeper meaning of not hating one's enemies, because in so doing, the enemy gets into you. “

Eeuw! Good point.

“Or, in the words of Churchill, it costs you nothing to be polite while shooting a man.”

LOL.

6/30/2010 06:39:00 AM  
Blogger anon said...

"That which is not" is speaking to you all from the abyss... I believe it is succeeding in its purpose which is to distract and delay real constructive discourse

Curses, you've detected my non-existant-self's plan!

Two problems: this particular thread began as an attempt by me to start a constructive discourse, which was met by unalloyed negativity from you lot.

Then there's the massive, virulent, seething negativity routinely expressed here: towards "the left", Obama, "the tenured", postmodernism...the list goes on. That's your prerogative of course, but then don't go accusing me of introducing negativity into your land of sunny positivism.

6/30/2010 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"I'm not trying to win popularity contests. In fact, the more you dislike me, the better I'm doing my job."

6/30/2010 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "this particular thread began as an attempt by me to start a constructive discourse,"

Ok, my mistake, sometimes you do do humor really well... if unintentionally.

6/30/2010 09:59:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

"Oh yes, we can see that you are just brimming over with humility."

Good conversation starter! No wonder he can't get a girlfriend.

6/30/2010 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Christopher Olson said...

Anon:

You deny transcendence, by reducing everything to the material. In doing so, you reduce the manifestation of your consciousness (and everyone's) to being nothing other than a clever illusion produced by the dancing randomness of matter and energy.

You deny "that I am".

Whence cometh mind? If not from The Mind, then from "no mind" = "That which is not".

If we are not made in the Image, the Logos, of God - but are rather, as you proclaim, simply matter - then we are "not mind". We are no greater than our source... an effect which is no greater than its cause.

If the foundation of reality is not a Mind - then there are no minds, any where, any time.

I am not real, you are alone, the words that you read are a dream which is ending as soon as it has begun... which is never.

"That which is not".

6/30/2010 12:10:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Christopher Olson: I see you are ignoring your own advice.

Anyway, I do not deny transcendence. This particular thread started with me pointing out a paper that had a different model of transcendence. This seemed like an interesting point of view to anyone thinking about these issues with an open mind.

And obviously I do not deny that there is such a thing as mind.

You said "If the foundation of reality is not a Mind - then there are no minds, any where, any time." Materialists disagree with this -- they believe that mind can emerge from nonmind. You may think this is impossible, even ludicrous, but that's what materialists believe -- not that there is no mind in the universe.

My own feeling is that like many bitter philosophical fights, the real problem is in the question, and I am looking for approaches that transcend, you'll excuse the expression, the limits of the two camps.

6/30/2010 12:55:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Five bucks says you cannot even remotely explain to us our "model of transcendence" that you are rejecting. Since it fits on the back of a Crackerjack Box, it shouldn't be difficult!

6/30/2010 01:11:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I'll even mail the money to a neutral location, so you won't have to worry about me finding out where you live and killing you with hemlock and stuff.

6/30/2010 01:26:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Kind of unfair if you both take one side of the bet, and judge it, don't you think? We need a neutral observer.

So I won't take the bet, but roughly, it seems to be as if you believe in the existence of a transcendent mind as somehow higher than or prior to the natural world. The latter is viewed in itself as a rather dead mechanical assemblage, with life and mind injected into it from outside by this transcendential power. Human minds are minds by virtue of being shadows or projections (probably the wrong terms, but you get the drift) of this transcendent mind (or Mind, as Van would put it).

Close? Completely wrong?

6/30/2010 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Not even wrong.

6/30/2010 05:00:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

So lets see an accurate version.

6/30/2010 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

You can't be serious.

6/30/2010 05:29:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Now who is being evasive?

6/30/2010 05:51:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "Completely wrong?"

Yes. Or, completely Wrong, as I would say.

6/30/2010 05:59:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "So lets see an accurate version...Now who is being evasive?"

Did you... you (or as I would say) You, just ask for... and even display annoyance at not getting... and e(E)xplanation?

You?

Asstounding.

wv:plese
That's what I'm sayin'

6/30/2010 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I concede your point. 1500 daily posts and over a million words is pretty evasive. Perhaps I should have written a compact book pre-summarizing what was to follow...

But if you want to take the shortcut, I would recommend starting with the complete works of Aurobindo, Schuon, von Balthasar, Swami Abhishiktananda, M. Polanyi, W.R. Bion, Allan Schore, and Ignacio Matte Blanco, throw in some Eckhart, and Valentin Tomberg, season with Finnegans Wake, Terence McKenna, and the Upanishads, and garnish with the Church of the Subgenius, and you'll understand exactly where we're coming from.

I thought it was obvious.

6/30/2010 06:08:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

What I wrote is based on what I've read here -- you believe mind is prior to matter (to shorten it even further). If that's an unfair or inaccurate characterization, I wish you'd say why. Of course any short summary is going to leave out a lot, but you seem to have definite views about this particular issue.

6/30/2010 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce said "What I wrote is based on what I've read here -- you believe min..."

Now, now, anunce, as a good pomofo student, you 'know' that the text you have interacted with here has been colored by your experiences and socio-politico and economic prejudices, which you simply cannot avoid bringing to your expectations of meaning as excavated here. Furthermore, in the vibrational symbiosis between you and your conflicted urges to exert power over the lesser masses inhabiting these comment threads, you are merely exercising your own pent up emotional urges to oppress them.

So, in a very real sense (so to Speak), you can have no identifiable level of comprehension of the wider truths expressed in these texts, not in the way that those who've helped shape them through their interactions with B'ob can through their shared native and cultural resonances, and so it is simply presumptuous for you, an outsider, having no authentic claim or right to refer to their common understanding in any way, just so that you can validate your own ingrained positions and prejudices.

(runs and washes fingertips. Brings Lysol back & wipes down keyboard. yech)

6/30/2010 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger anon said...

Oh well. Since no answer is forthcoming, thank you Google:
Clearly, if you have even a rudimentary post-enlightenment grasp of things, you realize that manifest existence must flow in the ontologically prior direction of Spirit--> Mind --> Life--> Matter.

Van: when you aim for wit, you generally get exactly half-way there.

6/30/2010 08:34:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

anunce witticized "...half-way there"

"WOh-ho... Livin' on a prayer!"

6/30/2010 09:34:00 PM  

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