Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Infrahuman, Suprahuman, Human, and All Too Human

All Raccoons with an opened third nostril ("noustril") are aware of the distinked differences between the human, infrahuman, suprahuman, and various shades in between. Our recent atheist visitors were rendered hysterical at my tautologous statement -- a banality, really -- to the effect that atheists understand God like a dog appreciates Beethoven. But girlish hysteria is just one of the many ways to exhibit the infrahuman -- or to be fair, the "all too human." Infrahuman should be reserved for the truly malodorous, such as Yasser Arafat, Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, and other Nobel Prize winners.

"Be a man!" As soon as you say this to a boy -- which you must say or transmit in one form or another -- you are simultaneously saying to stop behaving like one. In other words, master yourself, transcend yourself, rise above yourself. Thus, there is hierarchy, or there is no man. The hierarchy is not merely about outward behavior. Rather, if one has truly transcended oneself, the behavior is simply the mark of an inner transformation -- or the failure of such.

Granted, there were and are times that this formula is abused. Naturally, it is possible for a bad man to imitate the gestures and bearing of the superior man, but he can only fool others who have not risen above themselves (the trousered apes of the U.N. come readily to mind). Again, if your coon scent is operative, you don't have this problem. You can smell one of these people a phony smile away. As I have said before, it doesn't just come through in the content of their communication, but through the essence of it. A person cannot really hide his essence except to people whose own essence is hidden from themselves -- which is a lot of people, by the way, certainly the majority. It is why people such as John Edwards or Hillary Clinton could ever even be considered to lead this great nation.

Still, there are enough people with a subcoonscious sniffer to know what's in the air, which is why, say, Hillary Clinton's "negatives" and Rudy Giuliani's "positives" are so high. As frightening and destructive as Clinton's policies are, her negatives have nothing to do with that. Rather, they are a response -- instant feedback, as it were -- to the state of her soul, which is getting very close to Nobel territory. Likewise, no matter how negatively the liberal media tries to depict Giuliani, normal people have a positive reaction to him (as they did with Reagan).

Just as we are aware of the infrahuman, we are aware of the suprahuman, for the one implies the other. Just as you can fail to achieve proper humanness, you can surpass it. In fact, speaking only for myself, I am perhaps even more "suprahuman oriented" than I am "God oriented." Or, I find the most direct and vivid evidence of God in the form of certain particularly lofty souls who directly transmit the realm of the suprahuman. Apparently, this is a controversial claim in Protestantism, but not so in Catholicism and certainly not in Orthodoxy (much less, Vedanta), where there is very much of an awareness of how extraordinarily helpful the saints can be to us. Again, not just in a didactic or educational way, but in the form of a direct spiritual transmission. And it is a guruvy two-way transmission, as in Father so-and-so, pray to God for us!

I judge religious writings solely in non-discursive and "suprahuman" terms, by the spiritual "perfume" they emit. If they aren't readolent with this written fragrance, then they are not likely to be very helpful, much less transformative. This is why I dismiss the Deepaks and most of the other new-agers as frauds. It's not out of any maliciousness, but because I just can't stand the smell. It's the same with atheists. Again, as always, not the ones who, for whatever reason, are simply indifferent to the spiritual realm. Rather, the ones who are passionately hostile to it. How could they not be lost and tangled in the web of the infrahuman?

I'll tell you how. As someone -- it might have been Will -- pointed out, for a serious seeker, atheism is quite frequently a "stop along the way," as it was for me and I imagine the majority of Raccoons. In a certain sense, giving oneself over to atheism is a spiritually generous act of kenosis, or complete self-emptying, analogous -- roughly, of course -- to Christ's descent into hell. In Balthasar's unique interpretation -- which is controversial -- Christ does not enter hell "triumphantly" trailing clouds of glory, but as part of his complete identification with fallen man and his ultimate fate. Only upon hitting rock bottom does the true transfiguration of man become a possibility in the divine-cosmic economy.

So one of the reasons Raccoons do not take atheism seriously -- why we do not argue with you, but laugh at you -- is because we have been there. Truly, there is nothing you can say that we haven't heard before. And besides, whatever you say is so thoroughly tangential to our personal experience that all we can say is "if it pleases you, go nuts." One of these atheists made the bizarre accusation that I was "attacking" them, which can only be maintained if you nurture a very special kind of narcissistic need for persecution and self-victimization. How can you feel persecuted by a group of crazies having a private conversation amongst themselves? I do not write for an atheist audience, any more than Beethoven composed his symphonies for canines. (Not to make the unfair comparison of a musical dawg such as myself to the suprahuman Beethoven.)

Sorry. That was just a bunch of unfocused rambling. Let's get serious, and try to determine what a human being actually is, for only in so doing will we be in a better position to discuss the infrahuman and the suprahuman. Sri Aurobindo maintained that the human being was not a fixed entity but a possibility; not an island but a bridge; not a wall but a door or window. But this is really no different than the distinction between the mirror and the image. In this sense, developmental time is simply the distance between what we are and what we are to become.

And that we ought to become something automatically implies that there is something that we ought not be. For example, even the breathless atheists maintain that I ought not be such a bigot. There is nothing in their ontology that can explain why I shouldn't be one if I prefer to be one; nor is their anything in their ontology that can account for the free will with which I could make such a choice, but metaphysical absurdity can pose no barrier to a self-refuting ontology which is the essence of absurdity anyway.

(Speaking of which, Mackenzie, this month's reserpient of the One Cosmos Trolls Royce award -- the wiener by a nose over his fulsome friend Cline -- just left a comment at 6:21 that is so stupid as to be beyond disbelief. To think that such malicious stupidity is susceptible to reason, fact, or logic is beneath a proper Raccoon. Again, any Raccoon should be able to smell the realm from which this troll is operating. It is hardly "neutral," but lucilphuric.)

Here is a typically gem-like quote from Schuon that shall be our starting point: "There is a great deal of talk these days about 'humanism,' talk which forgets that once man abandons his prerogatives to matter, to machines, to quantitative knowledge, he ceases to be truly 'human.'" Furthermore, "nothing is more fundamentally inhuman than the 'purely human,' the illusion of constructing a perfect man starting from the individual and terrestrial; whereas the human in the ideal sense draws its reason for existence and its entire content from that which transcends the individual and the earthly."

Obvious, no? But would it be possible to make this so obvious that even the atheist could understand it? No. It is already as obvious and clear as it is possible to be. The fault, or "lack" is not within the message but the recipient, who is incapable, for whatever reason, of elevating his mind to the realm from which spiritual truth arises. Indeed, rather than merely "understanding" it, he is offended by it. In this regard, he experiences the open hand as a fist. Which I suppose makes sense. Bacteria are not big fans of Lysol.

Here is another, more subtle observation: "There is nothing human which is not an evil from some point of view: even tradition itself is in certain respects an 'evil,' since it must handle evil things in man and these human ills invade it in their turn, but it is then a lesser evil, or a 'necessary evil,' and, humanly speaking, it would obviously be far truer to call it a 'good.' The pure truth is that 'God alone is good' and that every earthly thing has some ambiguous side to it."

Thus, all Raccoons are fully aware of their lower nature, which automatically coonfurs protection against the kind of religious authoritarianism envisioned by the atheist trolls. If we are "better" than others, it is only because we are worse, and have had to repeatedly surpass ourselves. I am not nearly grandiose enough to claim that I am the worst of all. That designation is reserved for the true saints. That the atheists could see me in such a light is the highest flattery, if only I were thurstoning for such magooey blindishments, not to mention howeling for such maroonic loveys.

Now, here is how you end up being lojacked on the infrahuman plane. The miracle of our humanness has "a reason for being that is proportionate to its nature, and it is this that predestines -- or 'condemns' -- man to surpass himself; man is totally himself only by transcending himself. Quite paradoxically, it is only in transcending himself that man reaches his proper level; and no less paradoxically, by refusing to transcend himself he sinks below the animals which -- by their form and mode of passive contemplativity -- participate adequately and innocently in a celestial archetype; in a certain respect, a noble animal is superior to a vile man" (Schuon).

What a mean thing to say about Mackenzie, whose comments continue to frantically stink beneath themselves, and he with them.

I'm running out of time, so I'll just leave you with another observation which I think you'll agree is the esscence of claritin for your stuffed up nous:

"In a word, there is nothing more inhuman than humanism, by the fact that it, so to speak, decapitates man: wishing to make of him an animal which is perfect, it succeeds in turning him into a perfect animal; not all at once -- because it has the fragmentary merit of abolishing certain barbaric traits -- but in the long run, since it inevitably ends by 're-barbarizing' society, while 'dehumanizing' it ipso facto in depth."

Who could say it isn't so?

You know who. Let's just say they're not heaven scent. Hey Mac, open another window!

Smell ya' later.

179 Comments:

Blogger MizzE said...

The perfumed scent of today's coonmmunique
reaching my 3rd gnostral smells haven scent.

ipodm = ipodmmmmmm

5/30/2007 08:20:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

>>In a certain sense, giving oneself over to atheism is a spiritually generous act of kenosis, or complete self-emptying<<

I think that's probably exemplified on macrocosmic scale with respect to the arts of Western civilization - from A. Schoenberg's 12-tone ventures, to the Theater of the Absurd, to Samuel Beckett, Jackson Pollock, etc., etc.

A long journey - or descent - into the night for the purpose of eventual rebirth.

By the way, I think the sustained popularity of the "popular arts", pop music, etc., was and is due to the fact that "high art" became so bleak and spiritually vacant that the "common folk", the groundlings, took it unto themselves to create something that actually approximated life-enhancing art forms.

5/30/2007 08:27:00 AM  
Blogger walt said...

Bob,
A Jim Backus reference? Now, that's nuance!

5/30/2007 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger CARL TOFFLE said...

A trolls royce (I love it,Bob) and now anon at 8:31 is not only lost, but completely off his trolley.

5/30/2007 08:41:00 AM  
Blogger juliec said...

Wow. I go away for a long weekend, and when I come back this place is positively reeking. Sheesh!

5/30/2007 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

The afterlife of saints is indeed a controversial thing to write about, and probably dangerous to even think about for those who don't have a clear sense of the difference between spirit and soul.

5/30/2007 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger juliec said...

Mr. Mackenzie,
somehow you interpreted a factual story about my grandmother, a woman whom I loved with all my heart, and who was also a human being, and therefore capable of acting like one, as both an ad hominem attack against you and an abuse of her memory.

I did you honor, sir, by comparing you to her. I retract the parable in regards to your person; you are not worthy to be compared to a fellow and fallible human being.

I suggest instead that you look up the definitions of a few words: metaphor, simile and parable. Once you fully comprehend those definitions, you may find yourself slightly more comfortable in this abode.

And fear not, sir; since you find my dialog so odious, this is the last time I shall address a comment to you.

5/30/2007 09:18:00 AM  
Anonymous maineman said...

"In a word, there is nothing more inhuman than humanism, by the fact that it, so to speak, decapitates man . . . not all at once . . . but in the long run, since it inevitably ends by 're-barbarizing' society, while 'dehumanizing' it ipso facto in depth."

A case in point: my brethren at the American Psycho Logicist saw fit to include, as their most recent lead article, a screed on "Racial Microaggressions in Everyday Life." The bottom line is that "people of color" are constantly being dissed by people who lack color by such grave threats as not having a rainbow swath of magazine selections in their office space. The implication is that so-called POC are so fragile as to be diminished by such experiences, a kind of death by a thousand cuts, the devastation wrought by an unending onslaught of micro-narcissistic injuries.

Imagine Jackie Robinson storming off because there wasn't a copy of Ebony in the locker room.

How can those authors not go to work in clown suits? And how can they not be aware of their devaluation of their fellow human beings?

5/30/2007 09:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Geckofeeder said...

Gagdads supraroma therapy works to open the third noustril.

5/30/2007 10:12:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

Some people are born stupid, some have stupid thrust on them . . but this current "anonymous" . . . I didn't think it was possible to be "transcendentally stupid", but I swear this guy gives off a glow.

5/30/2007 10:16:00 AM  
Blogger Joan of Argghh! said...

Oh, bother the trolls! Like their namesakes, they are small men living under cyber-bridges spouting what they imagine to be clever conundrums in order to control the flow of thought.

Every single troll that's ever been graced with our disdain has come with the intent of taking over what another has built. So great is the need for con-troll that he must levy a tedious tax of endless words on those who merely seek to bridge the gaps in their journey to the True.

A pox on 'em, says I.

5/30/2007 10:17:00 AM  
Anonymous the Tim Guy said...

ahhhh, a sweet savour. Is it not true that as you do come to realize transcendant truth that you "knew" it
all along. It takes a long period of
denile (not an Egyptian river, but a state of darkness) to pave over your conscious mind and put up the paving stripes of 'humanisism?' so called,
which is religion, so recognized by the Supreme court in the late 30's. Actually anti-religion, anti-Christ, anti-God is more apt.
Thank you again for all your labor Mr. Bob, when you can more insight
into the 60's how did we ever buy into such darkness? Who drove it
into such a public spectacle? I survived it, barely and I often contemplate the darkness we wrought on this country. By the meaningless by, I played various gigs with the doors, before and after their success, (in opening acts for them), that's what I mean be barely escaping.

5/30/2007 10:28:00 AM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

If nothing else, the Maclinzie twindbags serve as cautionary trolls for the kits and neocoons out there, for this is your brain on atheism.

5/30/2007 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger bgalbreath said...

“one of the reasons Raccoons do not take atheism seriously -- why we do not argue with you, but laugh at you -- is because we have been there. Truly, there is nothing you can say that we haven't heard before.” ..
...”developmental time is simply the distance between what we are and what we are to become.”

What you say reminds me of one interpretation of Vedanta, that the life process consists of the absolute passing through every point in a psychic space by experiencing each individual's experience from the inside, seeing everything from every body's point of view. The further along in the process, the more the embodied world soul finds him or herself saying about someone (seemingly)else, "I've been there." An old Roman (the Poet Terence, I believe) said, "Nothing human is foreign to me." Your point about Jesus having to share, at least briefly, the experience of the lowest sinner in hell reminds me of this idea that to be fully human is to have shared in every human experience. I find that idea inspiring although, without something like a long series of incarnations, we can only approach it through some sort of sympathetic imagination of what others go through.

5/30/2007 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I haven't been there/done that with regards to atheism. I grew up steeped in a theistic worldview and nothing I have ever encountered has held a candle to it, whether rationally, spiritually, aesthetically, or in any other way.

Any attempt by secularists to "rip away the curtain" only brings closer the holy of holies. What's behind the veil is precisely what's so utterly entrancing to my soul. It's a no-brainer...give me the One behind the curtain, not the ones who can't see Him. I'll enter in.

I cut my wisdom teeth on the Bible, Francis Schaeffer, Chesterton, Lewis, MacDonald, and the like. When the heart is awakened to spiritual realities, you don't go around asking for "scientific evidence" to prove the existence of God. Reality itself is evidence. When I view the landscapes of my earthly home, I see the Father's hand all over it, and my heart automatically rejoices, "This is my Father's world!" I cannot imagine living starved of gratitude. Whom do atheists thank?

Dupree is right, the whole exchange back there serves as a cautionary tale. Gives me the shudders.

"The pure truth is that 'God alone is good' and that every earthly thing has some ambiguous side to it."

That's a crucial insight. As usual, grasping it requires humility.

5/30/2007 11:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Coon Hunter said...

First point: Godwin and his band of Coons don't know the difference between BELIEF in God and EXPERIENCE of God. Folks here display only the former, not the latter. This forum is just a step above Jerry Falwell.

Second point: There is no worse argument--or cop-out--than saying "We understand you and laugh at you because we've been there." There is a saying among writers which goes: SHOW, DON'T TELL. Empty words, Godwin. Empty words.

5/30/2007 12:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Sawdust said...

Yes, I went through atheism, or at least meandered into the immediate neighborhood. I grew up in the Church of Christ, became dissuaded by my grandmother, who was the most outwardly religious person I've ever met. She ate, slept, and talked Jesus Christ 24 hours a day. But I never knew the woman to smile, or say anything good about anyone. I attended church services more or less regularly, more because it made my Dad happy than anything else. Too much of a certain kind of religion can be a bad thing.

This post got me to thinking about my friends, a dozen or so who gather to eat occasionally. About half of them attend a chuch fairly regularly, the rest never, including myself. But they're all good people, I couldn't pass judgement on anyone, but if I could I would rate them all highly.

I've said it before, but it sure is fun to see all the troll-smacking. Who needs American Idle when you can see GB slap one into next Tuesday, and step on his throat when he lands. Almost better than you-know what.

5/30/2007 12:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Sawdust said...

Oh, now I see we have a coon hunter in the midst of attempted contemplation. My money says he goes home with his game bag rather less than full.

5/30/2007 12:32:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

coon hunter said "Second point: There is no worse argument--or cop-out--than saying "We understand you and laugh at you because we've been there."

Yes there is - not saying what you know to be true, because you suspect fools won't believe you. Amounts to giving them what you think they'll want, rather than what you know to be true. Among writers, writers who practice this type of writing are known as "A Hack Writer".

"SHOW, DON'T TELL."

Don't tell us you don't like it here, show us - leave."

5/30/2007 12:43:00 PM  
Anonymous bulletproof monk said...

I offer the following story to my fellow raccoons as spiritual meat for the day.

http://sgpm.goarch.org/Monastery/index.php?p=40

5/30/2007 12:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob,

Your blog of course, but would you please consider blocking the IP address of Anonymous 8:31, 8:37.

5/30/2007 12:52:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

Coon Hunter, you ignorant slut -

The major emphasis of Bob's postings is on God as an experiential reality, as opposed to concept or image - which you would know were you not so ignorant.

Just yesterday in a comment, I made (to an atheist) the point of spirituality being a mode of consciousness as opposed to a belief - which you would have known were you not so ignorant.

5/30/2007 12:53:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

"coon hunter" - Your juvenile comments immediately following the depth and reality of Susannah's say everything about who you are. Perfect juxtaposition. My guess is that your red face isn't just from going home empty handed...but empty.

5/30/2007 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Bulletproof - Thanks for that. "Simple" shepherd monk indeed. Ahhh, if only we were all so simple.

5/30/2007 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Ya know, all this atheist nonsense reminds me of how I often get clients who will insist that they have no abs. They never had them and they probably never will or so they think. Of course, this always makes me giggle and I just tell them to imagine they have them wrapping around their midsection in their head first and eventually the body will catch on. If they are consistent with their lessons, they always end up laughing at themselves too after they have become more in touch with their own body awareness.

Interestingly enough the more I study anatomy and movement of humans the more I am convinced there is a God. God leaves little "fingerprints" all over everything. The spiral make-up of DNA, followed through by muscle fibers, followed through by the fascia. All of these spirals and levers are too beautiful and well designed to be random. ;)

5/30/2007 01:38:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Anonymous said...
"Bob, Your blog of course, but would you please consider blocking the IP address of Anonymous 8:31, 8:37"

(big friendly slobbery hound whipping head back 'n forth) "Da-uhh which way did he go George... duh which way did he go...?"

['The CusClaw has chosen!']
;-)

5/30/2007 01:53:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

will said...
"Coon Hunter, you ignorant slut -"

Doh! ISS incident!

5/30/2007 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Got a playlist on my site now, too... from Finetunes (its been scaled down a lil bit.) It has some of that odious modern Christian music on it, so be careful among the classical/instrumental and jazz...!

5/30/2007 02:03:00 PM  
Blogger José María said...

I am perhaps even more "suprahuman oriented" than I am "God oriented."
Man, be careful, if you are not God oriented your "superhumanity" is towards the Asura.

5/30/2007 02:20:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Duly noted.

5/30/2007 02:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Interestingly enough the more I study anatomy and movement of humans the more I am convinced there is a God.

Oh yes, the belief of a Pilates instructor is more valid than those of, I don't know, the vast majority of the scientific community. And it's positively ridiculous to expect that millions of years of evolution would produce some positively beautiful results, right?

Who ARE you people?! You certainly have the right to your opinions and beliefs, but your statements about atheists are absurd.

5/30/2007 03:06:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Herman - You are a machine and nothing more. You hang with the machines, we'll hang with the mirrorcles.

5/30/2007 03:17:00 PM  
Anonymous the drive-by whack-a-troll said...

Herman said...

"blah, blah, blah...Oh yes, the belief of a Pilates instructor is more valid than those of, I don't know, the vast majority of the scientific community. And it's positively ridiculous to expect that millions of years of evolution would produce some positively beautiful results, right?...blah, blah, blah..."

Her_man,

The "vast majority of the scientific community" has made exactly *zero* pronouncements on the existence of a god as a scientific matter. In fact, I would hazard to say that the vast majority of *top* scientific brains in the past century see little or no real incompatibility. That goes for Darwin, Einstein, Godel (if he may be included), Feynmann, and others. Tell us, when are *you* going to grow up and become a *man* of science, instead of making boyish and unscientific pronouncements about what science does or does not claim?

Have a nice day. :)

5/30/2007 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Now if only the rest of the morons would listen and obey!! Herman, darling, you are beyond hilarious, we have long ago concluded the debate that evolution and God need not be separate but are only different ways of arriving at the Truth.

We know who we are. Are you sure you know what you are? At least you are good for a laugh! I'll give ya that. Just remember we are laughing at you not with you...

5/30/2007 03:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Now would you look at that!

My comment with the questions was deleted!

Wow, not only will you not explain yourselves, YOU WON'T EVEN TOLERATE ANY INQUIRY.

Oh, to be so enlightened.

5/30/2007 03:50:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

A reminder that comments that are so stupid that they lack even entertainment value will be removed at my whim.

5/30/2007 03:52:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree is a douchebag said...

Suit yourself, you pathetic little coward. You delete the questions you know you can't answer and claim they're stupid. Be back soon, with friends!

(I bet deleting those comments made you feel SO TOUGH!)

5/30/2007 04:00:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

Now that's entertainment. You see, you're not too stupid to post here.

5/30/2007 04:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with the commentor who was deleted. Tell me more about God than "we know He exists and atheists don't because they're dumb", please.

5/30/2007 04:07:00 PM  
Anonymous late convert said...

In fact, I'm not even an atheist. I'm an agnostic.

How proud you must be.

I simply don't understand why everyone here thinks they are so enlightened, and no one else in the world has a clue.

I don't think that. Does that mean I'm not here?

Do you really need to look down on others to feel better about yourselves?

A bit of projection perhaps? Personally, looking up to others makes me feel better about myself. Did you know that Adolph Herseth was the principal trumpeter with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra for 53 years, and that he was almost eighty years old when he retired in 2001? That’s quite an astonishing and inspiring career.

If you are so steadfast in your beliefs, I think you will have meaningful responses to these questions...

Er, the one doesn't necessarily follow from the other.

... if you prefer your circle-jerk mumbo jumbo to actual debate, so be it.

You should talk.

5/30/2007 04:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I am glad you deleted your other comment, cousin dupree, as it would look bad if people saw you stupidly posted twice! Ooops!

5/30/2007 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Herman, you are free to politely debate others if they wish to indulge their appetite for futility. But from my end, I'm afraid there is literally nothing a man like me can convey about God to a man like you. My powers are limited in that way.

5/30/2007 04:17:00 PM  
Anonymous late convert said...

Now would you look at that!

My comment with the questions was deleted!


Look at what???

(Apologies to all. I just couldn't resist.)

5/30/2007 04:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Herman, you are free to politely debate others if they wish to indulge their appetite for futility. But from my end, I'm afraid there is literally nothing a man like me can convey about God to a man like you. My powers are limited in that way.

Riiiight.

You can write pages and pages about how liberals are insane, but you just can't tell us ANYTHING about God, despite the fact you're 100% convinced He exists and look down on anyone who isn't.

This is like some bizarre Zen-like pretentious Internet cult. You all know the Truth, sure, but rather than talk about your loving God, you'd rather talk about liberals. I am sure Jesus would approve. Unreal.

5/30/2007 04:20:00 PM  
Blogger Robin Starfish said...

I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken.

it's a hard it's a
hard it's a hard it's a hard
hard rain's gonna fall

5/30/2007 04:25:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

If you really want to know just buy Bob's book and actually read it! Don't expect us to waste our time trying to convince you. Really no one cares if you believe in God or not, that is your problem.

5/30/2007 04:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I like when pretentious people act like they've made a point when they haven't.

Why does God let children in Africa die of starvation and AIDS?

Which mainstream religions, if any, have it "right"?

What percentage of people go to Hell?

I mean, you really should be able to answer these.

For someone who claims to be able to show up commentors, your performance has been quite disappointing so far.

Although I do thank you for making dupree boy stop with the censorship.

5/30/2007 04:27:00 PM  
Blogger Lisa said...

Herman, please stop putting your preconceived notions about who or what I am into this conservation. Honestly, I am not very religious in the sense you can conceive. I believe in God and my place in the cosmos. I cannot convince you of yours that is work you must do on your own. Good luck to you, I would say God Bless you but you would see it only as an insult but really no hard feelings either way.

5/30/2007 04:33:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Herman,

We tried.

Go read the last comment thread.

Do you really sincerely want me to try to evangelize you? I'm an evangelical; I'd be glad to! We can take it to e-mail if you like, because that't not really the purpose of Bob's place.

5/30/2007 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

First things first:

Bulletproof Monk - you continue to provide delightful and timely additions. Today's article, and the previous quote from St. Theophan about the "true" secret, are favorites!

Robinstarfish - your haiku, in the middle of all that, just made me laugh out loud! Purrrr-r-fect! (And yes, I know the tune well!)

Van - Let your mind drift back...it's 1965....Bobby Fuller....his big hit was "I Fought the Law and the Law Won." :)

Bob -
Lots of flak flying-about! It's all very instructive, in its way. Your comment of caution, "This is your mind on atheism," was spot-on. This education about atheism is more than I ever cared to know, but now we are so morally challenged all around us, that I need to know these things.

In the midst of all the fur flying, I was struck by what you said early in the post:
"...master yourself, transcend yourself, rise above yourself. Thus, there is hierarchy, or there is no man. The hierarchy is not merely about outward behavior. Rather, if one has truly transcended oneself, the behavior is simply the mark of an inner transformation -- or the failure of such."

This paragraph reeks of spiritual "perfume," as you call it. Once again, if you separate the key phrases and concepts in it, and ponder them, it contains a whole teaching.


Thanks for your hard work; and oh, please, let Dupree know that his "tidying-up" today was appreciated, won't you?

5/30/2007 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

Herman -

Sorry. I can't explain. It's against The Law.

5/30/2007 04:58:00 PM  
Anonymous cosanostradamus said...

Here in Synchroni City, one of my cow-orkers just walked out the building with a new red lunch bag he was proudly showing off (????).

On the side was prominently printed TROLL.

As luck would have it, he's a poster child for the genre. I've spent more hours than I can count trying to point out the abundant Truth and Beauty in his world. To little avail. He'd just rather rail against religion (doesn't matter what brand) at every opportunity. Makes him happy, I suppose.

But at least his lunch knows his name. Not everyone can say that.

wv: phckhn (eh...)

5/30/2007 05:20:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Let's bring it down to brass tacks, Herman. Like I said yesterday to the odious one, your position boils down to this:

You cannot prove to my satisfaction that God exists.

And you are right. Because you don't want proof. You want to win an argument. Guess what? You win.

No one here can prove to your satisfaction that God exists.

But you can prove it to yourself if you have the courage to try. If you want to know- If you really want to know, then all you need do is seek sincerely with an open mind, and an open heart. (translation- you gotta' pray) I don't toss that off lightly. It is not a thing easily done. Frankly it feels embarrasing as hell when you start. And you do run the risk of having your entire worldview up-ended.
But the result is worth it. Ask anyone here. It's not what you think it's going to be. But it's worth it.

Double dog dare ya'

JWM

5/30/2007 05:41:00 PM  
Anonymous terrence said...

The most intelligent thing Herman said was "I like when pretentious people act like they've made a point when they haven't."

That covers most everything else you have said here, Herman.

Nah-nah-nah-nah!

5/30/2007 06:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poor "Gagdad Bob".

He likes to pretend he makes others look dumb.

But really, he just deletes their comments, and his own, as needed to preserve his facade of cleverness.

Is he as big of a douche as "Siggy"? I am actually considering that now.

P.S. The more you delete, the more we recruit! Suit yourself!

5/30/2007 06:05:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

That was fine. As I said, just keep your stupidity entertaining.

5/30/2007 06:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

That was fine. As I said, just keep your stupidity entertaining.

Tell. Me. About. God.

If you delete that and claim it's "stupid", that's quite telling, no?

5/30/2007 06:08:00 PM  
Anonymous sawdust said...

As a regular commentor, I must say I am surprised and disappointed by the moderation going on. Why are we not willing to listen?

5/30/2007 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

herman,
the problem is that you're demanding a collective answer from a group of individualists. We don't all agree; this isn't a religion, simply a point of view. There are a variety of faiths represented here, none of which is likely to give you a satisfactory answer. Furthermore, your questions have been answered numerous times in previous posts and comments sections on this blog. Those of us who have been hanging around for a while are tired of continually having to make the same points over and over ad nauseum just because a new troll stops by.

Here's a clue: if you sincerely want to know what we really think and believe, go back through the old posts. Look for the places where there aren't many comments for one day, say around 30 or 40. Those are usually the days when we're not wasting our time with trolls, but are rather discussing those things which hold keys to each individual's faith. You might find some answers there; certainly it will be more fruitful than standing around here and whining because we don't want to open up to you when you've demonstrated nothing but rudeness.

I'm betting you won't bother, though, because it's clear you don't actually care what we think, you just want to be right. In which case, you're right. You win. We're all a bunch of meanies who like nothing better than to abuse enlightened souls such as yourself.

Fell better? Good. Now go away.

5/30/2007 06:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

you've demonstrated nothing but rudeness.

Why do you not hold yourselves to the same standards? Every post here is incoherent ranting about atheists and liberals. And that's all you apparently do in the comments. Do you find that polite?

And, listen, I AM NOT HERE TO BE "RIGHT". I am asking very sincere questions about God, and they are being deleted. Seems everyone loves to make fun of atheists, but no one is willing to step up and say ANYTHING about God. You support this?

I hope you see this comment before it is deleted. :/ I am not a "troll", I came here looking for clarification, and I am being censored because I won't sit around talking about how atheists are stupid.

5/30/2007 06:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Herman, after 700 posts, I don't think you're going to get it. But Bob will try again tomorrow. We'll see you then.

Did you want to point me to one that wasn't just tired old nonsense about how evil liberals and atheists are? I mean, I'd appreciate it.

Something tells me this isn't the stuff of Jesus' sermons.

5/30/2007 06:15:00 PM  
Anonymous cosanostradamus said...

Sheesh, herman. Suspend your disbelief for awhile, ok? Do you read a novel (any book for that metter) or watch a movie in the same way you behave here? Let the story unfold. You want the last chapter first.

Do your homework and read a month or two of past OC blogs. Read Bob's book. You'll find out eventually you're asking the wrong questions. If you're a true seeker and not just pigheaded, you'll get it.

It's not what you think. Because of that, no one can tell you what you want to know.

5/30/2007 06:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

cosanostradamus,

Put yourself in my shoes. Why on earth would I buy a book from this man? I appreciate your sentiment that enlightenment is a journey, and I agree with that, but if making fun of others and high-fiving one another for doing so is the first step, I question where exactly the journey leads me.

I hope you see this comment, because it will be deleted in 3...2...1...

5/30/2007 06:21:00 PM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

Ah, curiosity. I have to agree with the late naval officer Johan Oscar Smith, who wrote about the first time he was filled with God's Holy Spirit. He thought that now he would finally be able to understand about the beasts in Daniel and in the Apocalypse, "but the Spirit showed me the beast in myself."

5/30/2007 06:23:00 PM  
Anonymous toots said...

Herman, I agree. Why buy the book when you can feed your addiction to Bob's blog for free?

5/30/2007 06:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

toots,

If someone would just be straight up with me, maybe I would buy the book. Maybe I would contribute here. But all I hear from ANYONE is: atheists are stupid, liberals are stupid, I'm stupid, we're great, we understand God, no one else does, let's all congratulate one another.

Why is anyone so unwilling to write anything of substance?

And do you believe God approves of your disdain for others?

5/30/2007 06:27:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

OK, that's ALL you got? Look, I'm willing to listen.

As I said: No one here can prove to your satisfaction...

And frankly, your "detailed questions" are a smokescreen. You say you've prayed, that you've had incredible revelations. Saying, "Hey God I want a pony" isn't prayer. Saying, "God, for this one day I place my life and my will in your care" is a prayer. And if you can chalk it up to some trick of your brain cells, it isn't a revelation. A great idea maybe...
If you are willing to listen, then hear this. Your whole challenge is based on the (impossible)conditional "To my satisfaction".


My challenge to you also hinges on a (three point) conditional: that you seek (pray) sincerely, that you seek with an open mind, that you seek with an open heart.


You want to know what it is that we believe?
That's the best I can do for you.

JWM

5/30/2007 06:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

And frankly, your "detailed questions" are a smokescreen

How so?

How has God affected your life that cannot be explained by words? If preachers and rabbis and sheikhs can descrive religion, why can't you?

Again, put yourself in my shoes. You've said nothing. And how do you reconcile your advice to me (which I do appreciate) with the hateful venom and pretentious disdain freely displayed by others here? I mean, they're not even pretending to be nice people.

I have a feeling this one's gonna be deleted, so I hope you see it.

5/30/2007 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

herman,
if you don't want to buy the book, then don't. If you really want answers, then read past posts. Maybe you should even start back at the beginning.

If you really want answers, perhaps you should first ask yourself what you believe. Nobody here can answer that for you. If you're an atheist, then yes we think you're probably foolish, and you are most certainly missing out on a part of life we coons find extremely fulfilling. You also are very unlikely to engage in a satisfactory conversation here.

If after reading past posts you find that you still don't like what we say and what you read, well, nobody is forcing you to stick around. I for one am completely baffled by people such as yourself who keep coming back.

5/30/2007 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Smoov said...

Herman said:

Tell. Me. About. God.

All right, young man, that's enough. Go to your room and take a time out. If you stamp your feet and cry like that in here again there will be no cartoons again this Saturday morning!

Bob has enough daycare duties on his hands as it is.

5/30/2007 06:36:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Herman, you showed up during a period where Bob's blog was particularly troubled by precisely the sorts of atheists he is talking about. Did you read the other comment thread? That will answer a lot of your questions about the high fiving.

It's one thing to claim ignorance about God; that's fine. The arrogance on display there is not fine.

I think Magnus has hit upon your answer. We don't put God in the dock; He puts *us* in the dock. You can try to buttonhole Him with your questions but until you "place your hand over your mouth," as did Job, you will learn little. There are plausible and rational theological answers for the questions you have posed, but you probably already know them.

Until you fully submit to God you can't possibly begin to learn what you don't know about Him.

5/30/2007 06:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

If after reading past posts you find that you still don't like what we say and what you read, well, nobody is forcing you to stick around. I for one am completely baffled by people such as yourself who keep coming back.

I don't know whether or not I like what you say. You're not telling me anything.

Why don't you suggest a few good posts for me to read? Perhaps a few that describe God without belittling others? That IS possible, right?

I am sincerely happy you find life "fulfulling", but does that mean you get to PICK what is "Truth"? If that's the case, our discussion is done and I'll bid you a polite farewell.

5/30/2007 06:38:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

This is the craziest troll since old Nagarjuna!

5/30/2007 06:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

You can try to buttonhole Him with your questions but until you "place your hand over your mouth," as did Job, you will learn little.

Again, no one has told me anything of substance. All I get are mocking of others, word games, and deletion of my posts. You think this is respectable?

I'll be happy to shut my mouth, but I'd appreciate something to listen to.

5/30/2007 06:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

This is the craziest troll since old Nagarjuna!

The second turning of the wheel.

Your knowledge of Buddhism is telling.

5/30/2007 06:41:00 PM  
Anonymous me and god said...

Well, I'll talk about God to Herman.

God presented to me as a warm feeling on the top of my head, like the light pressure of the palm of a hand.

I was in a motel room in Tucumcari, New Mexico, truly scared and desperate and dope-sick.

I called out, "Please, are you there?" and I did get an answer.

In addition to the physical sensation of a warm touch, I saw a small pale light in the room.

Also, there came into my mind a sense of ease and a "things will be Ok" type of sensation.

Ordinarily I'd just think these were self-generated ephemera but I was too desperate to disbelieve (I didn't want to disbelieve).

Since then I've felt IT off an on; occasionally I get direct and specific intuitions which have proved helpful.

I believe in God on an experiential basis, and I think this is the kind of testimony you're looking for, Mr. Herman.

There it is, for what it's worth.

5/30/2007 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

No, we don't pick what is Truth. That's the whole point of this blog, as I understand it.

5/30/2007 06:44:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

Herman said,
"I mean, they're not even pretending to be nice people."

Actually, I dislike people who pretend to be nice.

5/30/2007 06:45:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

herman,
"Why don't you suggest a few good posts for me to read?"

I had already done that, but I'll repeat myself since I'm feeling oddly patient tonight.

"Look for the places where there aren't many comments for one day, say around 30 or 40."

Go further back than the past week, as we've had a lot of trolls lately. Maybe, as I said earlier, you should just look through the archives to January of 2006.

That's the best anyone here can do for you, herman, unless you'd care to try an email dialog with someone whose voice you aren't offended by, and who actually wants to have this talk with you.

5/30/2007 06:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I appreciate that, me and god, I do.

But, with all due respect, that's all you people have to share?

You give a free pass to righties who claim gays are evil, sex before marriage is a sin, and that everyone's going to hell, and you reserve your disdain for atheists who didn't have any magical moment of truth?

Look, if I'm wrong, correct me, but I'm not seeing the influence of a kind and loving God in here.

Though I am genuinely happy for you if your life as improved. It's sad that most here apparently have nothing but ill will towards me. And they're the Godly ones?

5/30/2007 06:47:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I guess I don't get where you are coming from. Do you want Bob to declare what denomination he is? Do you object to his political commentary?

I mean, it's a blog. The blogger chooses the subject matter. Am I missing something? Why is it so important to you that Bob "declare"?

5/30/2007 06:48:00 PM  
Anonymous herman said...

Herman,

Please stop using my name. I chose my handle because it was the name of a great man. A man who certainly would not have tolerated your disgusting display of ignorance and hubris.

You dishonor everything he stood for. So, please stop aping my handle.

Don't apologize. Don't respond. Don't argue. Just be a decent person and stop it.

5/30/2007 06:49:00 PM  
Anonymous cousin dupree said...

No, you atheist moe-ron, not saint Nagarjuna, but the troll Nagarjuna. You're as crazy as him! Search the archives, man! There is the answer you seek!

5/30/2007 06:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

No, we don't pick what is Truth. That's the whole point of this blog, as I understand it.

Good, I appreciate the clarification.

But, from my experience thus far, the "whole point of this blog" is to put down atheists and liberals. I see a whole lot more of that than discussion about "Truth". It's pretty sad when people have a clear agenda but will not admit it, even in the face of damning evidence.

5/30/2007 06:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Don't apologize. Don't respond. Don't argue. Just be a decent person and stop it.

I am new here, and have no idea who you are. Herman is my name. I am not pretending to be you. For someone who claims others demonstrate "hubris", you sure are bent out of shape about someone else having your name. You'll get over it.

5/30/2007 06:51:00 PM  
Anonymous general motors said...

From today's post:

"Likewise, no matter how negatively the liberal media tries to depict Giuliani, normal people have a positive reaction to him (as they did with Reagan)."

I'm wondering about the "normal people" that you refer too. In our nation, about 40% of people are lefties or indifferent to politics, about 30% are integralists and wafflers, and and about 30% are conservative. Which one of these factions is the "normal" one?

5/30/2007 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger walt said...

Not-Herman said,
"You give a free pass to righties who claim gays are evil, sex before marriage is a sin, and that everyone's going to hell..."

I guess that post was before I arrived.

5/30/2007 06:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I mean, it's a blog. The blogger chooses the subject matter. Am I missing something? Why is it so important to you that Bob "declare"?

OK, Susannah, let me try and explain with a hypothetical example.

I am interested in Christianity, and decide to go to a church. The preacher spends the whole hour putting down other people, and then asks me for money.

Do I leave a Christian?
Do I leave feeling good about what happened?
If I then read the Bible, do I think Jesus would have approved?

This guy has every right to write whatever he wants in his "blog", but HOW do you reconcile his pretentiousness and hatefulness with Jesus' humility and love for everyone?

5/30/2007 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"Though I am genuinely happy for you if your life as improved. It's sad that most here apparently have nothing but ill will towards me. And they're the Godly ones?"

You seem extraordinarily sensitive to the opinions of people here. Is something going on in your life right now?

If you are sincere, then fine. Keep in mind that you are following on the heels of lots of people who are NOT sincere, that patience is limited, and it's not hard for someone to mistake you for one of them when you're being a bit, well, fractious. FTR, I have shown you no ill will.

I'm a "rightie." How would you say the way you have just characterized me is different or more "godly" or civil, if you will, that Bob's description of leftwing ideology?

5/30/2007 06:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

No, you atheist moe-ron, not saint Nagarjuna, but the troll Nagarjuna. You're as crazy as him! Search the archives, man! There is the answer you seek!

I'd ask you to tell me what exactly I said that was "crazy", but we all already know you won't answer.

5/30/2007 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

The thing is, Herman, this is not an evangelical Christian blog. I come here more for the philosophical musings than the theology. I'm positive I differ with Bob significantly on certain points of orthodoxy. But I still enjoy a different angle on it all.

Bob's not trying to evangelize you. That's not his purpose.

5/30/2007 06:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I'm a "rightie." How would you say the way you have just characterized me is different or more "godly" or civil, if you will, that Bob's description of leftwing ideology?

"Bob" believes that "leftists" are insane. I would never say such a thing about right-wingers. Truth be told, though I am indeed a Democrat, I hold many right-wing beliefs. I am pro-life, anti-gun control, and believe in the death penalty.

But Susannah, let's be honest, this isn't about me. Hatred for atheists and "leftists" drips out of every. single. post here. You will not for one minute be able to convince me that's what Jesus would approve of. Seriously--take a step back. Look at all this disdain and negativity. THIS is "spiritual"??

5/30/2007 07:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Herman is my handle, not my name. It is the name of great man who symbolized everything you are not.

Please choose another handle. I was here first.

5/30/2007 07:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I come here more for the philosophical musings than the theology.

I get that, I do, but why is the constant belittling of others necessary?

5/30/2007 07:02:00 PM  
Anonymous fess parker said...

We're laughing at you, not belittling you.

5/30/2007 07:08:00 PM  
Anonymous me and god said...

Herman:

Well, some more...

After getting involved with IT, which was at first serving only as a security blanket, I noticed changes in my moral sense as well.

What I can only describe as a sweet sorrow swept through me. My past deeds stood out in sharp relief, and the one's which were wrong bcame easy to spot. I gained a sort of discernment of correct conduct which was alien to my previous self.

I attribut the new insight to God.

But that's all I have; as you point out, this is not the basis for national policy. I don't really know how policy articulates with IT.

I think that once you have IT, you are a nation of one. You are your own policy. No manmade system can be relied upon.

Here are my sensations about some national figures:

George Bush: very good
Cheney: can't tell
H. Clinton: best avoid
B. Clinton: best. would take him again in a heartbeat.
Gore: fair
Obama: avoid
Edwards: very good
Romney: avoid
Richardson: fair
Dodd: can't tell
Gagdad Bob: fair
Sheehan: avoid
Guliani: fair

So, there you have it; an explanation of how God articulates with policy--via the intuition.

5/30/2007 07:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I'm sure Jesus approves.

5/30/2007 07:09:00 PM  
Anonymous herman said...

Not-Herman,

Please tell me how your metaphysic accounts for all the non-local aspects of being (thought, values, beauty, truth, justice, love...)

Then I will tell you about the God that clearly, you so desperately wish to know.

5/30/2007 07:09:00 PM  
Anonymous bulletproof monk said...

Dear Herman, made in the image of God,

You asked about God. May I present to you an article based on a speech given some years ago by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros. The title of his talk is "The River of Fire." For many people, this speech had a profound effect on their view of God, mankind's relation to God, hell and the afterlife, and human perfection.

I caution, however, that his words and opinions are strong, and somewhat controversial even among Orthodox Christians. His core message on the nature of God is,. however, precisely and fully in accord with orthodox Christian teaching as explicated over 2000 years.

His view of what hell is all about is one valid view from the Fathers, but not the only one. It is, however, a view that has largely been lost in the popular mind of the west, and as a result many have unfairly created a God not worth anyone's worship. It is, I believe, this caricatured God that most professed atheists rebel against.

So allow me to give you an alternative view -- one that may perhaps challenge you in new ways. All I ask is that you read in the spirit in which it is offered, with an open mind and an open heart.

http://philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html

Humbly in Christ,
A onetime rebel and now a servant of the most loving God.

5/30/2007 07:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

So, there you have it; an explanation of how God articulates with policy--via the intuition.

I appreciate that. (My "Jesus approves" comment was directed toward the previous commentor)

I am quite sure it takes some courage to say nice things about Bill Clinton here. Respect, sir.

5/30/2007 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Some old jokes to break the mood. Not as funny as Herman. Nevertheless....

5/30/2007 07:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

So allow me to give you an alternative view -- one that may perhaps challenge you in new ways. All I ask is that you read in the spirit in which it is offered, with an open mind and an open heart.

Though I've not yet read it, I thank you for your advice.

I would just caution you and Susannah and others--why are you hanging out with hatemongers?

5/30/2007 07:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Some old jokes to break the mood. Not as funny as Herman. Nevertheless....

Oh, the delicious irony.

I ask about God on your "blog", a few are receptive to my queries, I thank them, and you want to turn the attention back on yourself with some jokes.

I'm not the only one who noticed this.

5/30/2007 07:17:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

Herman
All right. I'm going to go a short way out on a limb, here. You said I told you nothing. I told you how to get here. Trust me, you don't want to hear my life story. Have people seemed rude? You know how creepy it feels when you get one of those really fanatical Jesus freaks shoving some horrible little tract in your hand, and telling you how you're going to hell? I do. I still don't like it. And at one time or another I've hit back at religious people with all the same 'why is there suffering' questions. Now I find myself on the other side of the confrontation. I see how I must have looked to all the believers when I thought I was being so damn clever. It's embarrassing. Coming to Faith was not easy. But as I said, I'm not doing life story. Suffice it to say that I don't go looking for atheists to convert. I don't go out of my way to take a shot at people whose beliefs I don't hold. And I appreciate reciprocity in the matter. The only reason I'm bothering is that I think you just may really be looking for the truth. I know it is maddening. You want someone to let you in on the secret, someone to tell you what this One True Thing is. And all the answers sound vague and evasive. It's not an event; it's a process. A process of opening your consciousness to the deeper and higher realms available to it. It's sort of like coming in to a most magnificent cathedral. But you have to be willing to bend down in order to get through the doorway. Susannah has offered to share her faith with you. I gave you the same prayer, and three points of condition from which to begin. Dang it! It's after seven. I'm going to get dinner.

JWM

5/30/2007 07:18:00 PM  
Anonymous herman said...

Not-Herman,

Lie down, close your eyes, and ask yourself, who am I? After stripping away all untruth, what is left? What is the real you?

God lies within. Seek and you shall find.

5/30/2007 07:21:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

I hang out here because Bob takes a strong rational and spiritual stance against anti-Truth and anti-human philosophies and methods like postmodernism, deconstruction, etc. His criticisms resonate with me.

I am simpatico with him on that. Also, I like the coons. They are nice. :) They aren't hatemongers, they are just bothered and annoyed by trolls. Who wouldn't be? Nobody here claims divinity or perfection.

5/30/2007 07:21:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Herman the insincere seeker said:
"Bob" believes that "leftists" are insane. I would never say such a thing about right-wingers. Truth be told, though I am indeed a Democrat, I hold many right-wing beliefs. I am pro-life, anti-gun control, and believe in the death penalty."

Um, you do know that the Demoncratic party is vehemently against those beliefs of yours.
And yet, you still vote for them?

Smart. Tough. Nuance.

5/30/2007 07:24:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

correction

The same prayer, and points of condition from which I BEGAN...

JWM

5/30/2007 07:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Um, you do know that the Demoncratic party is vehemently against those beliefs of yours.
And yet, you still vote for them?


I most certainly do. I believe the war in Iraq is unjust, the idea of cutting taxes during it is insane, Republican politicians are incredibly corrupt, and the favors they give to big businesses are unconscionable. If that means I vote for the lesser of two evils, so be it.

jwn, susannah, and any others who have made an attempt to be straight with me, I appreciate it. I truly do. I'd just ask once again that you take a look around. The overwhelming feeling in this blog is hatred and disdain towards others. This...is spiritual?

Best wishes.

5/30/2007 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

bulletproof monk: Unspeakably awesome!

It gives complete clarity to Jesus saying, "I did not come to condemn the world, for the world has already condemned itself."

5/30/2007 07:37:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

herman, did you read BM's link? It will surely answer every one of your questions. Brilliance! I am humbled by my indulgence - and now understand what a dear friend must know of God.

Thank you!

5/30/2007 07:39:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Ack! Against tax cuts? Nooooooooo....

"Cheaper By the Half-Dozen" needs every penny of our money we can keep!!! I hope it's never repealed!!

Sheesh, I'm so tired of living without any emergency savings. After a year of sporadic or just-plain-un- employment, we were at less than zero. Without that refund (which is money my hubby rightfully earned!), we wouldn't be starting any savings. Lots of Americans with debt and no savings isn't a good thing for America. :(

But that's a debate for another site.

River, enjoying your FineTunes list. :)

5/30/2007 07:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Ack! Against tax cuts? Nooooooooo....

Exactly what money do you think should pay for the war in Iraq? You know, that war which (pardon my candor) is ostensibly meant to bring "freedom" to people who wouldn't stop to piss on you if you were on fire.

5/30/2007 07:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

herman, did you read BM's link? It will surely answer every one of your questions.

I have not yet, but I have it bookmarked and I do plan on it.

5/30/2007 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Congress can start with itself (oink). Plenty of trimmings there.

Then, you downsize. Trim your bureaucracy. Instead of expecting the American family to downsize & live on the financial edge. That is what a responsible representative gov't. would do, but I fear we no longer have that.

5/30/2007 08:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Some old jokes to break the mood. Not as funny as Herman. Nevertheless....

I would just like to take the opportunity to laugh at this once again.

I have never seen this guy do SHIT in a debate. And..."Gagdad Bob"...I am sorry, but that is the stupidest online name I have ever experienced. Wow, you must have spent hours thinking of that one!

And yet, this guy thinks he's a connection to God. And oh, how he hates it when others weigh in! He wants to have his own cult!

This comment will be deleted soon; for those of you who see this, ask yourself WHY it's been deleted.

5/30/2007 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

Ah, the true colors do show through in time.

5/30/2007 08:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Then, you downsize. Trim your bureaucracy. Instead of expecting the American family to downsize & live on the financial edge. That is what a responsible representative gov't. would do, but I fear we no longer have that.

Susannah honey I agree with you 100%! I do! But how do you take part in this liberal-bashing when, liberals didn't have any powers for YEARS, and yet the government spent money like drunken sailors! HOW can you support this government when it is the antithesis of everything the "right wing" should stand for?

note: this post will be deleted, hope you saw it

5/30/2007 08:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Ah, the true colors do show through in time.



A nonsense, meaningless post. Why do you bother?

5/30/2007 08:21:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

herman: Hah! Republicans? They've all gone pink these days too. Don't expect anything from politicians. Statesmen? They're another breed. But sorely missed and long lost now.

Liberals - I'm a Jacksonian Liberal.

But leftists? Many repubs are just leftist now.

5/30/2007 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Leftist lite, rather.

There's hope for 'em, but that hope doesn't look like Ron Paul.

*shudder*

But, lets not be fooled, every one of them has something they know, and things they get right - until the point in which they are trying to get things wrong. Which is the point of leftism.

5/30/2007 08:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

herman: Hah! Republicans? They've all gone pink these days too. Don't expect anything from politicians. Statesmen? They're another breed. But sorely missed and long lost now.

Liberals - I'm a Jacksonian Liberal.

But leftists? Many repubs are just leftist now.


I appreciate your thoughts. I don't like politicians either! Perhaps, unlikely as it might have seemed at the outset, we can agree.

Can you tell me what governmental changes you have in mind? I assure you, despite the slander others have apparently needed to attack me with in their "blogs", I am all ears!

5/30/2007 08:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Which is the point of leftism.


Uhoh, you've slipped into disingenuous territory now! Which "leftist" idea is incorrect, and what basis do you have to support it? I'm guessing this comment will be deleted and/or I will be banned, so whatever, you live with yourself.

5/30/2007 08:34:00 PM  
Anonymous maineman said...

"Which leftist idea is incorrect?"

Isn't the 100% failure rate of socialism an indication that they're all incorrect?

5/30/2007 08:49:00 PM  
Anonymous couson dupree said...

Picky, picky.

5/30/2007 08:53:00 PM  
Anonymous jwm said...

bulletproof monk:
Thank you for the link. Dilys will love it. That one got me misty. What a wonderful story. Great way to end the evening.

JWM

5/30/2007 08:56:00 PM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Hardly, Leftism is the resurrection of the original religion of fallen man; to worship the created - by which all Gods are rendered as men and men are Gods and immortals in and of themselves without the help or power of God - and impersonal nature, or Chaos, is the ruler - it is the oedipal state all the fallen inhabit, nature is always presented as 'mother' and rightly so, as its worshipers, like those of the cult of Asherah were doing nothing more less than copulating with their own mother.

This is leftism. Narcissism par excellence; but to know what it is and isn't takes knowing truth. Otherwise you can not distinguish lies from truth and thus you are blind.

Leftism is by definition, the opposite of Rightism; that is, the rejection of rightness. In our language we have a funny convergence of these words which serves to illuminate a deeper thing.

Sayet's recent revelation that what we call leftism is not Left, but Wrong, or rather, Wrongism; the pursuit of wrongness for the sake of... what? Well, what do you want? Wrongness will bring it.

The culmination of it is envisioned in the song Imagine, which has been said before (and will be again) where nothing exists in the world to fight for. Except, we live in the world, and therefore we must fight. It is an existential condition of our conditional existence. Its usually reduced to the word 'survival'.

Anyway, this is what I mean. Each small embrace to wrongness for the sake of lesser things is a step, a stronghold of leftism. We may say 'lesser evils are tolerated' but leftism is usually the reverse.

Instead of tolerating lesser evils for greater goods, we have toleration of greater and greater evils for lesser and lesser goods. It is the misosophy, hatred of wisdom, that is, since man is a becoming, cutting man off from his ultimate goal and is in fact less than human as a ideology.

Does that make sense?

5/30/2007 08:56:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

Herman who hijacked Hermans name-
So, you consider taking out Saddam and his bloodthirsty sons (who supported terrorism and broke his surrender agreement numerous times by obstructing inspectors and shooting at allied aircraft) is a worse evil than
Dhimmicrats attempting to take away our 1st and 2nd Ammendment rights, increasing abortion on demand with taxpayer dollars, and goin' easier on rapists and murderers, and who want to negotiate with terrorists, among other diabolic schemes?

Apparently you have a problem discerning greater evils from lesser evils.
As in you can't.

So don't bother sayin' you value the 1st and 2nd Ammendment, life of unborn babies, or harsher punishment for violent criminals when, clearly, you do not.

5/30/2007 08:56:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

The new Herman is a guy who never liked homework assignments in school and still doesn't (summer vacation and all). His opinions, feelings and current worldview are law and nothing anyone does or says is going to remedy that.
He just likes to talk and get attention.

5/30/2007 08:58:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

And he's a bit paranoid.

5/30/2007 09:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can we please just nuke one of the hermans? Or take like a number or something? Or include an initial? Or quit speedballing- whatever it takes...

5/30/2007 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman?
Is the Herman who said this:
"Oh yes, the belief of a Pilates instructor is more valid than those of, I don't know, the vast majority of the scientific community. "

, the same Herman who called me on a too quickly tossed off comment a couple of weeks ago? I could see you were a bit hot headed, but I never expected this (Of course I am the one who engaged Nagarjuna in a long drawn out string of posts and comments, so I might not be the best judge of blogaracter).

The above comment was your first (surviving) comment here today, and you wonder at your reception? Belittleing and insulting a much adored regular (back off Will! I'm just sayin') is not a real productive way of getting a coonversation going.

"Who ARE you people?!"

That's perhaps a question you should ask yourself, do think this is AnswersAreUs? This is a blog for people who enjoy considering a certain range of ideas, spiritual, political, etc. and who enjoy Gagdads daily essays, hashing them over & sometimes going off on tangents... where did you get the idea that we could or even would behave as your personal cosmic 8-ball?

"You certainly have the right to your opinions and beliefs, but your statements about atheists are absurd. " and "Hatred for atheists and "leftists" drips out of every. single. post here. "

You know, I hardly even notice the comments about athiests and leftists here. Seriously. They are usually amusing asnides, or serve to set off a thought or topic about this or that item of interest. They are not themselves interesting to myself or I suspect the others here. You are the one who can hardly get off a sentence without referring back to our hatred of atheists. If it's offensive to you... what in the world are you here for?

"I mean, they're not even pretending to be nice people."

Yeah. Pretty much true. Not likely to see much of it either. Comments like yours today & a.m. rude-eu yesterday are really not of interest to most here, and aside for a fleetingly fun round of whackatroll, are quickly boring and annoying.

"I'll be happy to shut my mouth, but I'd appreciate something to listen to."

Oh... I'm just going to let that one sit there on its own.

"Again, no one has told me anything of substance. All I get are mocking of others, word games, and deletion of my posts. You think this is respectable?"

No. We don't. That's the point. If this is the way you think conversations should be carried on, carry on elsewhere.

"Look, if I'm wrong, correct me, but I'm not seeing the influence of a kind and loving God in here."

Then leave! We really don't have an interest in correcting you. Listen, sometime last summer... July? August? Right before another snearing troll storm, we had an incidental athiest come through, a writer I think, pen name of Karl Vincent. Interesting guy, had some questions and comments - we all had some interesting back and forth, and he didn't think our point of view was correct, he decently said so and said his goodbyes. Good guy. Not a problem. Don't think anyone had any problem with his character or morals, he wasn't buying the spiritual angle and that was that.

I say incidental athiest. As I was up until late last year. In no way a focus of daily thoughts, nothing to be strident about, I just thought the talking sssnake stories were a bit lite, chuckled at those who bought into them, and that was that. I fully believed (and do) that the universe was and is whole and knowable, reality IS, truth is derived from that, that we were concious beings of free will who were born, lived and died. End of story, poof. The thought of dying didn't (doesn't) particularly trouble me. After reading this blog and talking with these people for a year and a half or so, I'm seeing more deeply into that scenario. I was here a good year as an incidental athiest. Never was a problem.

So you tell me, who's bringing the whole dripping with hatred against athiests thing in here with them?

"Truth be told, though I am indeed a Democrat, I hold many right-wing beliefs."

Ahh. Sure wouldn't have guessed that. Nosiree bob. And there I suspect, is your true bone of contention.

5/30/2007 09:03:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

hoarhey said...
And he's a bit paranoid.

A bit? Heh!

5/30/2007 09:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Does that make sense?

No. It's actually amongst the dumbest things that I have ever seen online. You believe in a loving God, and He inspires you to post...that?

5/30/2007 09:12:00 PM  
Blogger CARL TOFFLE said...

Herman,
I just counted 37 comments from you. At the time there are 123 total. Do you see anything strange about that?

Take a break and read some of the suggestions. Please? Or just reread some of the answers to your queries. You don't seem interested in the ones that take you seriously and attempt to respond.

I am beginning to suspect you are here for the sole purpose of disruption. The comment section is not designed for the benefit of only one commenter. Thanks.

5/30/2007 09:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

So you tell me, who's bringing the whole dripping with hatred against athiests thing in here with them?

Wow, you're in denial. If you're gonna hang with the pretentious fuckfaces, AT LEAST have the decency to admit it.

5/30/2007 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman said
"This comment will be deleted soon; for those of you who see this, ask yourself WHY it's been deleted. " 5/30/2007 08:14:00 PM

"note: this post will be deleted, hope you saw it 5/30/2007 08:19:00 PM "

I don't think you've quite got a handle on the Cousin's entertainment vs tedious meter yet.

I put up a couple comments yesterday for a.m. rude-eu, at 5/29/2007 11:01:00 PM & 5/30/2007 06:26:00 AM, before I'd read the rest of his comments and realized what a waste it was... but, waste not, want not - I'd be interested in your replies to them might be.

Oh... I am a flogger & a glutton, but hope springs eternal....

5/30/2007 09:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I am beginning to suspect you are here for the sole purpose of disruption. The comment section is not designed for the benefit of only one commenter. Thanks.

It amuses me to no end how you people believe you can switch to the high road with no ramifications. Who was that guy who implied I was insane the second I dared to challenge any of the nonsense here? Oh, that's right. IT WAS YOU.

5/30/2007 09:19:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

I said "So you tell me, who's bringing the whole dripping with hatred against athiests thing in here with them?

Herman said... "Wow, you're in denial. If you're gonna hang with the pretentious fuckfaces, AT LEAST have the decency to admit it."

Self parody, right?

5/30/2007 09:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Self parody, right?

Right. None of you EVER look down on anyone else. You are so Godly.

5/30/2007 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman said... "Right. None of you EVER look down on anyone else. You are so Godly."

Wrong and wrong. I constantly look down on those who work so hard to get beneath me. Wouldn't be polite to let hard work such as yours go unrewarded.

And Godly I ain't. Not my job. I do my best to improve myself, but where I am, I am.

(Nags? Is that really you?)

5/30/2007 09:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I do my best to improve myself, but where I am, I am.

Well, good for you. Here's hoping youn someday elevate yourself from brainwashed douchebag status.

5/30/2007 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman said "Here's hoping youn someday elevate yourself from brainwashed douchebag status."

Heh! lol. You are a strangely amusing guy Herman.

A little low on the thought meter, but funny all the same.

;-)

5/30/2007 09:37:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Well, at least I know you're not Nags, but funny all the same.

5/30/2007 09:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

LOL...

I am done here.

Nothing like hanging out with people who like to think they're smart, like to think they understand God, like to belittle others.

But, if you don't toe the party line, they'll make fun of you all day long, delete all of your comments, and all the while pretend that Jesus would approve.

To the few I've reached out to: please, take a look around. Is this "Godly"?

To the others, you'll burn in hell if you keep this up, I am amazed at your dishonesty.

5/30/2007 09:44:00 PM  
Anonymous terrence said...

Herman, if you took your head out of your rectum, you just MAY be able to see something other than your own fecal matter.

You CLEARLY are NOT interested in ANYTHING anyone says here.

Get a life, Herman; you are making a fool out of yourself.

5/30/2007 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman said... "I like when pretentious people act like they've made a point when they haven't."

It is kind of fun, isn't it?

Well, I've got more painting to do in the morning, a talent show for the 14 yr olds band before lunch, a list of honey-do's for the afternoon, and the beginning of the 20 person family invasion beginning in the evening to see the 18 yr olds graduation this weekend, so that wraps it up for me.

Will? What do you suppose the foretrollcast is for tomorrow?

Nighty nite coonland.

5/30/2007 09:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

Get a life, Herman; you are making a fool out of yourself.

LOL whatever. Do you have anything "spiritual" to share, or are you just looking to belittle others?

Are you Christians seeing this?

5/30/2007 09:51:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

Nite, Van - congrats on the graduation!

5/30/2007 09:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

It is kind of fun, isn't it?

AGAIN, the post I was referring to...was deleted!

Now why on earth would that happen, in this land of benevolent Godly people?

I don't expect you to answer. No one ever does.

5/30/2007 09:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Herman said...

I just need to say..."Gagdad Bob" (my God, that's the dumbest name I have ever experienced) is supposed to be tough on commentors? I have to say, where is your Gagdad Bob now?

If you're all so enlightened, then please...quit your bitching about liberals and atheists, and tell us the Truth.

If you don't, you're exposing yourself as the deluded and depressed little pansies as you are. Whatever would you have DONE if not for the advent of the Internet?

5/30/2007 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger NoMo said...

Herman - You may find this an off-putting question, but considering your incredibly obsessive presence here today, I am compelled to ask. Are you perchance a demon in training? Do you feel like your everyday self - or as if you're passing through some kind of dream fog? No need to answer. Just something to think about. (My personal recommendation, if you dare, is to read the New Testament). You asked.

5/30/2007 10:03:00 PM  
Anonymous terrence said...

Herman, Herman, Herman, ALL you ever see is your OWN fecal matter.

BTW, you did say you were done here. But you are STILL here, describing your fecal matter.

5/30/2007 10:03:00 PM  
Anonymous uss ben said...

"Only upon hitting rock bottom does the true transfiguration of man become a possibility in the divine-cosmic economy."

That's what it took for me.
Hittin' rock bottom shattered the shell of denial I had carefully constructed around my heart, mind and soul.

I was broken and humbled. I became aware of what I was and I didn't like what I saw. A filthy beast, soiled with sin.

Only then was I open enough for God to enter and clean me up.
Only then could the Light of Truth shine and make me whole.

That story is coming (hopefully) soon to a blog near you.
Rated R for Raccoon.
Directed by: The Man Himself.
Written by: Ben and the Man.
Special appearance by: The Dark Night of the Soul.
Produced by: Raccoon Remnant Inc..
Based on: nothin' but the Truth.

You heard right folks! An epic of, um, er, epic proportions!
Not your typical epic either. But you probably already gno that!

5/30/2007 10:05:00 PM  
Blogger juliec said...

BPM - thanks for the link. There's much to think about there, and you added a real value to today's comments. I don't know if I agree with it all, but it is worth a few reads, I think. I'm certain he's right about the caricatured God; I know that's what I used to rail against, when I was younger.

These days, I see past the lie, and I have many here to thank for that.

5/30/2007 10:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Skully said...

"Get a life, Herman; you are making a fool out of yourself."

Too late. There is absolutely no doubt now.
He was worth a few laughs though.

I like what Will said about another or same troll earlier:

will said...
"Some people are born stupid, some have stupid thrust on them . . but this current "anonymous" . . . I didn't think it was possible to be "transcendentally stupid", but I swear this guy gives off a glow."

Toxic waste stupidity I'm thinkin'.

5/30/2007 10:15:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Herman said "AGAIN, the post I was referring to...was deleted! Now why on earth would that happen, in this land of benevolent Godly people?"

(psst! herman... it's because you are a jackass. That simple)

'No Dear, I'm not back on the internet... just uhm letting the dog out... coming to bed right now'

5/30/2007 10:18:00 PM  
Anonymous cosanostradamus said...

Knot-herman, each of your posts is like a dog chasing its own tail. Same pattern every time. Bark - bite - whine - bark - bite - whine. And you never catch it.

What is amazing is the number of responses you got today from coons truly interested in helping you crack your veneer just enough to glimpse the possibility of the God who is beyond your self. Some are gentle, some are subtle, some just want to slap some sense into your concrete skull. Some make fun because ridicule clearly gets under your skin when nothing else works.

For example, I can 100% guarantee you'd be offended if a Christian called you a fuckface.

And you'll also be offended when you call a Christian a fuckface and he just laughs at you. Then when he prays for you, you'll fly into a spiting rage.

Nomo called you out. You are not yourself. Everyone here can see that except you. Whatever your deal is doesn't matter, it boils down to simple pride, being your own god. You don't have an intellectual problem with God, no one does really; that's merely a smokescreen. You do have heart disease though and until it's healed, your future ain't bright.

5/30/2007 10:19:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Skully, that was a favorit of mine t.... 'Coming!'

5/30/2007 10:20:00 PM  
Blogger CARL TOFFLE said...

Since you have declared your departure, Oh, Herman, I doubt you'll see this (chortle) but you said:

It amuses me to no end how you people believe you can switch to the high road with no ramifications. Who was that guy who implied I was insane the second I dared to challenge any of the nonsense here? Oh, that's right. IT WAS YOU.

5/30/2007 09:19:00 PM

Please be kind enough to show me where I implied you were insane. I'd like to change it. I think implication is too mild a stance.

5/30/2007 10:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Skully said...

Carl-
Hah! Good 'un! That was a home run!

5/30/2007 10:25:00 PM  
Anonymous hoarhey said...

Hmmmm,
pretentious fuckfaces, brainwashed douchebags, ..."Gagdad Bob" (my God, that's the dumbest name I have ever experienced).

Not the nicest characterizations, but I'm sure this was all "Jesus approved".
After all, you vote democrat and did it for the children. Right?

5/30/2007 10:30:00 PM  
Anonymous will said...

Van, well, ya know, what with climate changes and Global Warming/Cooling and the universal quickening and all, it's getting pretty tough to predict troll weather. In the morning, there might not be a troll in the sky. But by noon, we might get pelted with trolls the size of canned hams.

I'll play it safe and predict a thin gray drizzle of trolls, tapering off by the afternoon.

It's a bit curious that there is a troll influx now, no? Not exactly a sea-change, but I think it might be part of a much larger development going on in the world (and the upper worlds). As always, we should keep our eyes on the Middle East

5/31/2007 02:40:00 AM  
Anonymous will said...

I posted something yesterday and it seems to have disappeared into the ether. Hmm, this is the kind of thing that always happens to "other people" . . . NOT TO ME!

But OK, it happened, so here's my lil comment again -

Re: the previous discussion on the symbolic significance of Kansas/USA/Oz, I thought it a bit of a synchronicity to learn late yesterday - via the idiot box - that Kansas is actually a center for late-term abortions. One would think CA or MA, but Kansas?

What's that saying, symbolically?

5/31/2007 02:55:00 AM  
Anonymous ximeze said...

Not hermintyanon again

Geez these dopes are dull.

5/31/2007 03:52:00 AM  
Anonymous walt said...

Re the weather -

Off to bed at 7:30; I thought the storm had past. But, no! The downpour continued well into the evening. Started at 3:06 in the afternoon and didn't let up...for seven hours!

5/31/2007 04:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Hermits said...

Good riddance, Herman!
We don't need you! You're the original Mili Vanilli! Or vice-versa maybe.
Hermits don't like primadonna types.

5/31/2007 04:15:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

The Tyranny of Small Minds strikes again...

I wonder if he will actually take any of the genuine suggestions seriously? I have my opinions, but I'll keep 'em to myself.

5/31/2007 04:33:00 AM  
Blogger CARL TOFFLE said...

Aha! I've been vindicated. Since I made only two comments before you accused me of taking the high road, Herman the Hysterical, I was able to find the comment in question. It was in response to an outburst of incoherence from an anonymous source, since deleted (even the mild-mannered DuPree took issue,) which clearly indicated serious imbalance.

My comment was, "completely off his trolley." That is not implying you are insane; that is a carefully crafted declaration.

5/31/2007 04:34:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

Well, well, it seems the true trollish nature will out. :)

Van, happy graduation at your place!

5/31/2007 05:28:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"Republicans have gone pink..."

A-men!

5/31/2007 05:45:00 AM  
Anonymous Sal said...

BPM - Interesting link
I have to say though, that I found his take on Western Christianity puzzling. I wasn't taught what he claims I was, but am in full agreement with what he presents as the Eastern view because that what I had learned. From classical Western Christianity.

I don't disagree that the views he claims are taught in too many places, or his assessment of where they may have come from, when they appear.

But I think he may be cherry-picking Western theology, to make his point. The Fathers, after all, are not the exclusive property of the East. :)

Van- congrats to the graduate!

5/31/2007 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger CrypticLife said...

Some phrases that caught my eye:

"Incidental atheist"

Incidental to what?

"Whom do atheists thank?"

Even when I was more spiritual and did believe in a god-concept, "whom" would not have been a sensible part of it.

"You cannot prove to my satisfaction that God exists."

Yes. Everyone knows there is no proof, only persuasion. The treatment of Herman suggests that you don't particularly care to persuade him, or believe it impossible or unworth the effort.

"that you seek (pray) sincerely"

That sort of presupposes a belief in a deity, doesn't it? It says to convince yourself there's a deity, first you need to believe in it.

My experience has been that belief is quite fluid, though I have been an atheist for more than 15 years. I still don't know that I'd give that advice to someone who wanted but was "unable" to believe in a deity, however.

The game of heckle-the-atheist-troll seems to me to be sweet, sad, and all too human.

5/31/2007 08:01:00 AM  
Blogger Magnus Itland said...

Hello again Crypticlife.
I am not sure what the alternative to heckling the atheists would be, unless it be ignoring them completely. No doubt this would also be counted as micro-agression, for attention is a basic human need; few things express hostility as much as completely ignoring a visitor. It is only common courtesy to tell him that "we don't serve your type here".

5/31/2007 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger River Cocytus said...

Sal: I've been certainly exposed to it. And I've seen it in Roman Catholic sources as well. For Protestantism, I can quickly recall, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" -- every schoolchild has been required to read that one for years to make sure they hate the Lord with their heart, or at least those who ought to be his servants.

As for the sources who give that in Catholicism I would have to dig. Being that I'm not a Roman Catholic myself, I don't have the sources readily available.

Of course, I'm from an independent Church of Christ, so I have no problem giving harsh criticism to both the doctrine and actions of my own church as well as other Protestants.

Either way, God is not mocked.

5/31/2007 09:09:00 AM  
Anonymous in summary said...

Well, for what it's worth I do think that Herman has a point. Although a spirit-driven place, this Blog has an anti-spiritual energy to it at times.

It is contaminated by fear and ego like the rest of the human endeavor.

A spiritually pure blog would be...silence and empty space.

5/31/2007 09:13:00 AM  
Blogger Susannah said...

"The treatment of Herman suggests..."

Hey, waitaminute, I offered to evangelize the dude! Sincerely! He didn't take me up on it.

I think I've given the atheists here my highest effort. They simply do not "have ears to hear" and keep parroting the same angry accusations (while demonstrating the behavior they claim to decry).

Sal, my impressions of the article were similiar to yours, but I come from a charismatic stream of evangelicalism (DH would label it "Third Wave") that doesn't seem all that dissimilar to Eastern Orthodoxy. I did immediately call up "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," from the memory banks, though. LOL! I don't think all of Western Christianity is Hellenistic, though. There's a big debate touching on that where DH teaches right now.

Look, this blog is a blend, and the political commentary (which is secondary) is actually more lighthearted, kinder, deeper, and punnier than that you'd find at any other political advocacy blog on the spectrum. Read DailyKos lately?

Grown-ups inured to the political fray should be more than able to deal. When I get irritated with a blog, I quit reading it. You can always complain about it on your own space.

5/31/2007 10:11:00 AM  
Blogger Teri said...

For the life of me, I do not understand why Herman is bothering us with this. Do you want to know about God? Then read the New Testament. And while we are answering questions, answer one for me: exactly what is it that Jesus said that you disagree with? Is it love your neighbor as you do yourself? Suffer the little children to come to me? What in Jesus' life could you possibly object to?

The Bible says a few things quite clearly. It says that homosexuality is a sin and then tells us that we should hate the sin and not the sinner. It tells us not to murder. It tells us that in this world we will have trials and tribulations. We were kicked out of the Garden after all. So I do not understand why you think there is something wrong with God when there is suffering on earth. The problem isn't with God. It's with us.

5/31/2007 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger M. Gaddis said...

Herman ---
Q1. Why does God let children in Africa die of starvation and AIDS?
A1. Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God. But how can we know that the Bible is true? Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering...and what we can do about it.

Q2. Which mainstream religions, if any, have it "right?"
A2. No religion is "truer" than another. "Religion" is man's futile effort to try to find peace with God. The Christian doesn't strive to have peace with his creator. It was given to him in the person of the savior. The uniqueness of Jesus of Nazareth is His statement, "The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins." No religion of man can do that. Christianity is not a manmade "religion," but a personal relationship with the one true God.

Q3. What percentage of people go to Hell?
A3. Over 146,000 people die daily. Theologians agree that 80% of them go to hell.

11/08/2008 05:59:00 PM  

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