tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post6106607712655919833..comments2024-03-29T06:03:45.545-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Memos From God to Himself: Cosmic Continuity and DeuscontinuityGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-15395033769609925502008-07-03T11:06:00.000-07:002008-07-03T11:06:00.000-07:00(not very clean)(not very clean)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-67196263531082958092008-07-03T10:55:00.000-07:002008-07-03T10:55:00.000-07:00Ray,An error is like a mistaken use of ignorance.B...Ray,<BR/>An error is like a mistaken use of ignorance.<BR/><BR/>By any other name, foolishness would smell the same.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-18886273310207942582008-07-03T07:18:00.000-07:002008-07-03T07:18:00.000-07:00Van - A simile is like a metaphor for an analogy.Van - A simile is like a metaphor for an analogy.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-63878933490949902772008-07-02T15:14:00.000-07:002008-07-02T15:14:00.000-07:00Ray said "Like, say, a waterfall or a tornado isn'...Ray said "Like, say, a waterfall or a tornado isn't a "thing" per se but something water does."<BR/><BR/>Careful Ray, I think that tornado's blowing all your straw out the window.<BR/>You see no fundamental difference between a waterfall and....<BR/><BR/>I can't. I finally see that there is no point to this. Say hello to the tornadoes when you have them over for dinner.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-77018617745609841702008-07-02T06:33:00.000-07:002008-07-02T06:33:00.000-07:00Van: Ray, consciousness is immaterial, whether as ...Van: <I>Ray, consciousness is immaterial, whether as a 'field' arising from natural processes (objectivist) or as a soul (theists), it is immaterial.</I><BR/><BR/>Or as a pattern or organization or process of material things. Like, say, a waterfall or a tornado isn't a "thing" <I>per se</I> but something water does. That doesn't mean that waterfalls or tornadoes aren't <I>real</I> - they can kill you - but that also doesn't mean they are 'fields' or spiritual in nature.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-74227068483620595652008-07-02T05:45:00.000-07:002008-07-02T05:45:00.000-07:00Ray said "As I said:Van: Now you're denying consci...Ray said "As I said:<BR/>Van: Now you're denying consciousness itself!<BR/>Ray: No, just the immaterial nature thereof."<BR/><BR/>Ray, consciousness is immaterial, whether as a 'field' arising from natural processes (objectivist) or as a soul (theists), it is immaterial. To argue for it being a material set of biological abacuses is to not only not understand consciousness, but to misunderstand the nature and properties of material as well... a determined myopia arguing for its pet perpetual motion machine.<BR/><BR/>Too tedious... I'd rather argue with a flat earther than a flat minder.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-43688385742384906872008-07-01T20:08:00.000-07:002008-07-01T20:08:00.000-07:00Van, it looks like I actually did peg the conversa...Van, it looks like I actually did peg the conversation pretty well. You say that I "claim that the sense of self you perceive does not exist, because you perceive 'it'."<BR/><BR/>As I said:<BR/><I>Van: Now you're denying consciousness itself!<BR/><BR/>Ray: No, just the immaterial nature thereof.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't say that there's a whole worked out theory of consciousness yet. It's a 'hypothesis', based on some suggestive but by no means conclusive data.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-84600888147127036862008-07-01T14:36:00.000-07:002008-07-01T14:36:00.000-07:00From Ray's link "The subject should feel that he/s...From Ray's link "The subject should feel that he/she wanted to do it, on her/his own initiative, and feel he could control what is being done, when to do it or not to do it. Many actions lack this second attribute. ... Unconsciously it has checked the plan for our journey and has doubts whether we will arrive in time if we make a break. Our brain has to come to a decision. What's better, to stop or not to stop? Within milliseconds the brain decides to stop, and it gives order to register and to brake. All that happens unconscious. Only 200 milliseconds later this decision becomes conscious (and - being trained philosophers - we deeply become convinced that this was our free will) "<BR/><BR/>I didn't bother the first time because of the "See Jane Run" size of the font... I should have stuck with that estimation. Have you read Wundt's (they've misspelled his name... not surprising... Wundt's Clock, it's Wilhelm Wundt, <A HREF="http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:mfOvMpR-twoJ:en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Consciousness_Studies/Neuroscience_1+wundt%27s+clock&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&lr=lang_en" REL="nofollow">wiki give a better summation of your link's info</A>) other conclusions? How they formed a root basis for 'modern educational methods'? I hope you'd find them disagreeable... but maybe not. If you are willing to accept the study of such low level, near perceptual level mental activities as accurate and worthy measurements of human judgment or of "Free Will", you may have none left to free. Ray, maybe you should just pull the drapes closed and go to sleep. Maybe you have. You go ahead and keep staring out the windows, eyes wide asleep, I'll continue to shower and come out scrubbin' clean.<BR/><BR/>... argh...being a flogger is such a pain.<BR/><BR/>It is obvious that there is a deep interaction between mind and brain, the development of manual skill's are likely an establishment of neural macro's refined by repetition and 'saved to disc' to require less and less conscious control or involvement, and any perceptive judgment based upon them will be involved in them – not seeing neuronal activity at the root of mental activity would be the greater surprise. Even character traits, virtuous or not, become largely automatic responses based upon repetition and developed character "I didn't even think, I just acted". Any experiment you'd like to conduct requiring or involving learned or reactive responses are going to show this (go back to Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics) .<BR/><BR/>What your physiologically useful, but philosophically juvenile, experiments are not going to have any relevance for, is true judgment, judging whether or not it is wise to allow your child to go to a concert without supervision, is someone competent to lead the free world, a gem of a Poem or even what the meaning of 'IS' is - let alone anything regarding what the nature of the self being reflected is when deeply involved in a process of contemplative self reflection. I've no doubt that you actually could find some, a disturbingly large amount of people it seems, who would 'answer' those questions nearly autonomically, based upon environmental indicators, comfort levels and what others do. But that only indicates that becoming fully human is still not an automatic, stimulus-response process. It is the result of ever deepening conscious consideration of the full material and spiritual perspective, not only of the world without, but of within as well. <BR/><BR/>Good luck finding that in your silly experiments. God help you if someone does manage to fudge it.<BR/><BR/>The fitting summation at the end says it all, "<I>The philosopher David Hume pointed out that events that are close together in space and time are more likely than spatio-temporally distant events to be perceived as causally related. With certain assumptions about the prior probabilities, it follows from Bayes’ equation that events known to be causally related are more likely to be close in time and space than unrelated events.</I>"<BR/><BR/>There really is nothing more to say to you. To paraphrase, you've chosen (and the jokes on you) to remain blind, because you can see —deaf, because you can hear—deluded, because you have a mind—and claim that the sense of self you perceive does not exist, because you perceive 'it'. <BR/><BR/>A pity Hume's ideas of cause and effect were wrong... had he been right, the world might have been spared so much. Your far from clean Ray. Here, start from scratch with some comfortingly atheistic acid washing. Mere conceptual soap and water isn't going to get your mind clean. <A HREF="http://www.aynrandbookstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AR21B" REL="nofollow">Philosophy: Who Needs It</A>. Who does? Most definitely, you do.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-88510265539138775912008-07-01T12:36:00.000-07:002008-07-01T12:36:00.000-07:00Van - take a look at the link about 'backdating' I...Van - take a look at the link about 'backdating' I gave. It explicitly mentions that notion. But the backdating makes things more complicated...Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-51646384074987360012008-07-01T11:03:00.000-07:002008-07-01T11:03:00.000-07:00BTW, even on the level of the 'facts' of the 'stud...BTW, even on the level of the 'facts' of the 'study'... its conclusions are laughably contrived. Even if you bought the dumbed down view of a determined consciousness... there is no way to identify the detected activity as being that of the solution or determined 'choice', more likely it is merely similar to the resultset returned from a Database query, data only, it still takes the 'user' to evaluate whether or not to 'go with' that as the answer.<BR/><BR/>''Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7478782501191842192008-07-01T10:15:00.000-07:002008-07-01T10:15:00.000-07:00Ray... Missed it again... your idea of consciousne...Ray... Missed it again... your idea of consciousness is the Window, mine the dweller. <I>IT</I> precedes, not lags, the switching. <BR/><BR/>While you're washing the windows, I'm upstairs taking a shower... and I Am hence <I>much</I> cleaner than you.<BR/><BR/><BR/>BTW, even keeping within an atheistic view, the immaterial mind precedes... or at least directs the material brain, of which the 'switching' is but the first visible indication of thought. It shouldn't take any great leap to realize that the soul, mortal or immortal, depending upon your perception, is behind the wetware. The objectivists, light years ahead of you in the atheistic consistency department, get that. Your stubborn adherence to materialism is just souperstition.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37254658478537541512008-07-01T09:46:00.000-07:002008-07-01T09:46:00.000-07:00Van - You kinda diverged from where the conversati...Van - You kinda diverged from where the conversation was going, I'm afraid.<BR/><BR/>Van: Duh, someone is flicking the light switch on or off. We don't deny that light switches are material, just that some an immaterial conscious being must flick them.<BR/><BR/>Ray: Except the immaterial consciousness <I>lags</I> the material switch. Indeed, that immaterial consciousness <A HREF="http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h0998dgh/philom/consc/consc.html" REL="nofollow">often 'backdates' experiences</A>. It's as if conscious experience is being "knitted" out of multiple resources.<BR/><BR/>Van: Now you're denying consciousness itself!<BR/><BR/>Ray: No, just the immaterial nature thereof. <I>Something's</I> there, but its actual nature is a lot more complex than our current theories, just as the theory of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism" REL="nofollow">'humors' </A>, though accepted medicine for centuries, was inadequate. (Indeed, even the example I linked to above about 'backdating' points out models of this phenomenon that don't dispute 'free will'.)<BR/><BR/>It's not a house with nobody home, but it's a house where the dweller is built out of what happens in the home.<BR/><BR/>Van: But somebody's there!<BR/><BR/>Ray: I know. It's just not the kind of person you think they are.<BR/><BR/>Van: You just don't understand!<BR/><BR/>Ray: Sigh. At least I'm very clean.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71922649882632452892008-07-01T08:38:00.000-07:002008-07-01T08:38:00.000-07:00(anticipating the next round)Ray: Nyahhh! Look! He...(anticipating the next round)<BR/><BR/>Ray: Nyahhh! Look! Here's a study that proves that the windows let the light shine out of the house, but the lightswitch is what turns on the lightbulb and <I>that</I> is what makes the light shine out of the windows... no way the window could make the light turn on <I>before</I> the switch was flicked! See!<BR/><BR/>Me: Ray... someone lives in the house... someone cleans the windows... someone flicks the lights on and off... Ray... that someone is you.<BR/><BR/>Ray: <I>Me...!</I> No way, look, I'm perfectly happy and comfortable with the idea of the beautiful electromagnetic physics of light switches and curtain rods... I don't need any idea of a 'homeowner'... ya'll are too limited... you aren't able to see the beauty of Light Switches!<BR/><BR/>Me: sigh.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-52435435811780781772008-07-01T08:25:00.000-07:002008-07-01T08:25:00.000-07:00Ray Ingles said "Van - Some of those splashes must...Ray Ingles said "Van - Some of those splashes must go backward in time, then"<BR/><BR/>Maybe I can put it in terms a flatlander can understand (probably not, but maybe)....<BR/><BR/>Ray: Light switches cause the lights to turn on and off. Here's proof, we can use cool technology to see through the outer wall of the house, and actually see the walls, switches and circuits... and look, here's proof that the light switch flicks up or down before the light bulb shines or goes dark!<BR/><BR/>Me: Duh, someone is flicking the light switch on or off.<BR/><BR/>Ray: Some of those flicks must go backward in time, that's cool (snicker, snicker)<BR/><BR/>Me: maybe I can put it in terms a flatlander can understand (probably not, but maybe)...Ray, someone lives in the house and is actualling flicking the light switch on or off.<BR/><BR/>Ray: As if there were someone living there?! The idea that someone turned on the switch is just crazy talk...! Light switches are what cause the lights to go on and off! Look at the study!<BR/><BR/>Me: Ray, turn out the lights and go home.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-82847145987242401442008-07-01T07:25:00.000-07:002008-07-01T07:25:00.000-07:00Van - Some of those splashes must go backward in t...Van - Some of those splashes must go backward in time, then. That's cool, but it seems like we'd be able to get some utility out of that. Imagine a helmet that warns a soldier ten seconds in advance that he's going to dodge a bullet... :-><BR/><BR/>Though, actually, they <I>are</I> working on something at least <A HREF="http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/02/1551207" REL="nofollow">a little bit in that direction</A>.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-70724044559684534912008-07-01T06:35:00.000-07:002008-07-01T06:35:00.000-07:00Bret Stephens writes today in his WSJ article: Gl...Bret Stephens writes today in his WSJ article: Global Warming as Mass Neurosis: <BR/><BR/>[...] "So let's stop fussing about the interpretation of ice core samples from the South Pole and temperature readings in the troposphere. The real place where discussions of global warming belong is in the realm of belief, and particularly the motives for belief. I see three mutually compatible explanations.<BR/><BR/>The first is as a vehicle of ideological convenience. Socialism may have failed as an economic theory, but global warming alarmism, with its dire warnings about the consequences of industry and consumerism, is equally a rebuke to capitalism."<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121486841811817591.html?mod=djemEditorialPage" REL="nofollow">Full article.</A> QPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827536245376441948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58731666355355137052008-06-30T20:51:00.000-07:002008-06-30T20:51:00.000-07:00Oops, that last bit reads funny...W.E. Johns was a...Oops, that last bit reads funny...<BR/>W.E. Johns was author of Biggles series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-29857461538935340002008-06-30T20:42:00.000-07:002008-06-30T20:42:00.000-07:00Don't feel bad Nomo, my instant recognition was ba...Don't feel bad Nomo, my instant recognition was based on where I was raised & what English language stuff was available in Argentina: more UK, little US.<BR/>Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Tull. Choices being so limited compared to the US market one listened so often as to be able to sing the albums thru in song-order, even to this day. (Beaky luvs Thick As A Brick & goes nuts for Ian's flute, so I play it for her regularly)<BR/><BR/>English language book-stores catered to Anglo-Argentines, who's schools preped them for the UK university system. They were considered dual-citizens (same with Francos/Germans/Italians) & were free to swap counties for education or work. You can see this with World Cup Soccer, when there are questions as to which country's team a dual-national will choose.<BR/><BR/>US reading material was limited to occasional comics (highly prized) & blockbuster novels (who cares), while UK series like Biggles & Georgette Heyer were readily available - read all GH & still own copies of all 48, but rarely find Americans who've ever heard of either author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-38082961524232411362008-06-30T18:23:00.000-07:002008-06-30T18:23:00.000-07:00Heh - now this is interesting (via Siggy). I have ...Heh - now <A HREF="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121479169997914947.html?mod=todays_us_page_one" REL="nofollow">this</A> is interesting (via <A HREF="http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/" REL="nofollow">Siggy</A>). I have to admit, if I spoke Farsi and had the task of translating The Secret, I'd be extremely tempted to alter the meaning...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-42344508581888699742008-06-30T16:33:00.000-07:002008-06-30T16:33:00.000-07:00Julie,Good concise answer to the ever rising price...Julie,<BR/>Good concise answer to the ever rising price of gas. You wrote: "By taking measures to guarantee that gas prices remain high (through taxation and limited production), they can directly affect . . . ." <BR/><BR/>It's obvious to coons, the leftists want to affect a whole lot more than our modes of transportation. Peeps won't see the light about global warming, well let's couple global warming with peak oil, that'll produce some "heat". Hoarhey drew a real potential for the near future. <BR/> <BR/>More to the point:<BR/>Why would the former Saudi Aramco No.2 exec be meeting with <B>George Soros</B>? I read "crisis tactics" have been devised and implemented. <BR/><BR/>From <A HREF="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121451556299908501.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news" REL="nofollow">the WSJ:</A> "Sadad al-Husseini and Nansen Saleri raced up the ranks at Saudi Aramco, the world's most powerful oil company, working together for years to squeeze more crude from Saudi Arabia's massive fields. Today, the two men have staked out opposite sides of a momentous industry debate.<BR/>[...]<BR/>Mr. Husseini, Aramco's second-in-command until 2004, says the world faces a brute reality of depleting resources and ever rising prices.<BR/>At the moment, Mr. Husseini's pessimistic view is clearly ascendant. <BR/><BR/>Mr. Husseini, now an independent consultant, has jetted around the world spreading his views, including recently over dinner with George Soros and a clutch of other top financiers.<BR/><BR/>Mr. Husseini, 61 years old, lives across the street from the Saudi oil minister, Ali Naimi, in a leafy neighborhood of Dhahran, the Aramco company town on Saudi Arabia's east coast. The suave but sharply opinionated petroleum geologist says most of the big oil repositories have been found, and no amount of gadgetry will restore bubbly youth to aging fields from Indonesia to the Gulf of Mexico." #<BR/><BR/>The free market system for oil is being deformed by 30 years of Congressional production restrictions, OPEC and Leftist elites.QPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827536245376441948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-57767329873184675082008-06-30T15:18:00.000-07:002008-06-30T15:18:00.000-07:00As penance, I'm only going to listen to Thick as a...As penance, I'm only going to listen to Thick as a Brick for the next 3 days.NoMohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01100042056270224683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-85361586949363398012008-06-30T15:16:00.000-07:002008-06-30T15:16:00.000-07:00Xim - I'm ashamed, having been such a big Tull fan...Xim - I'm ashamed, having been such a big Tull fan back in the day - and didn't make the connection. I AM getting old.NoMohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01100042056270224683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-77411509539680554232008-06-30T13:29:00.000-07:002008-06-30T13:29:00.000-07:00Rabid,On the chance you really want to know about ...Rabid,<BR/>On the chance you really want to know about "Biggles", here ya go:<BR/><BR/>Bob's comment on Saturday comes from the lyrics of "Thick As A Brick" <BR/> <BR/>So! Where the hell was Biggles when you needed him last Saturday?<BR/>And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?<BR/>They're all resting down in Cornwall --<BR/>writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition<BR/>of the Boy Scout Manual.<BR/><BR/>Wiki "Biggles" for info, with links, on the 98 British Boy's Adventure books written between 1932 & 1997. Section entitled "Biggles in later popular culture" mentions all sorts places where Biggles shows up, including Monty Python, Dr Who & Austin Powers.<BR/><BR/>Much more Anglosphere than American.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-33827937555515579182008-06-30T13:06:00.000-07:002008-06-30T13:06:00.000-07:00"When we are aware of the Sun's light, it is not s..."When we are aware of the Sun's light, it is not so much a matter of "straining" to see it, but simply removing the obstacles, clouds, or impurities that obscure it."<BR/><BR/>Dire column rising<BR/>filters white light into red<BR/>source untaintable<A HREF="http://juliecork.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/omenous/" REL="nofollow">*</A>juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7691332076253809632008-06-30T12:48:00.000-07:002008-06-30T12:48:00.000-07:00Ray said "Those particular points are a bit hard t...Ray said "Those particular points are a bit hard to reconcile with the prevailing theory here, that's all"<BR/><BR/>No, they're not... only as Rabid, Mushroom and Julie noted, it's your perspective upon it that is limiting, your assumption that that is the starting point of the decision, rather than the effect of the decison - the splash rather than the cannonball that splashed.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.com