tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post5714187733818620085..comments2024-03-27T11:16:36.951-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Keeping Hopelessness AliveGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-6440231822955835232008-10-12T19:04:00.000-07:002008-10-12T19:04:00.000-07:00So who would pay for the inevitable debtors prison...So who would pay for the inevitable debtors prisons? No.. not prisons, but ‘Involuntary Infrastructure, Berry Picking, Port and Border Protection Services (wrecks and reeks)! Businesses would be taxed what it would cost to ‘maintain’ these people, eliminating that amount of taxation for the solvent (or the operation would be privatized and civil rights attorneys would have something more to do). At the end of the day, credit would be cheap and unlimited, unwanted labor would be done for cheap by American citizens, infrastructure would be rebuilt and maintained, and we’d be that much more secure!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-44177753496313290912008-10-11T20:48:00.000-07:002008-10-11T20:48:00.000-07:00aninnymouse said "is there a Cliffs Notes for this...aninnymouse said "is there a Cliffs Notes for this stuff? My time’s a bit limited these days"<BR/><BR/>Got that right. Here you go,<BR/><A HREF="https://mises.org/about/3242" REL="nofollow">J.B. Say: The Forgotten Early Austrian</A><BR/><BR/><I>"The analysis of interest rates is very perceptive and, in most respects, remarkably Austrian. First, Say realizes that the interest rate is not the price of money, but the price of credit, or "capital lent."47 Therefore, it is false that "the abundance or scarcity of money regulates the rate of interest."48 Of course, Say is thinking of the real rate of interest, not the nominal, or market, rate. He also clearly sees that interest rates will include some risk premium as a sort of insurance to protect against loss due to default.49 Such a risk premium will become very large when, for example, laws are imposed so that creditors have no legal recourse against a debtor who defaults.50 Furthermore, Say identifies the fact that there are "political risk" differentials between nations that lead to an international array of nominal interest rates.51 Overall, in terms of public policy, Say adopts the same stance with regard to credit markets that he exhibits elsewhere: namely, the state should not meddle. The "rate of interest ought no more to be restricted, or determined by law, than . . . the price of wine, linen, or any other commodity."</I><BR/><BR/>Super cliff's notes version: When Gov't meddles in the market, kiss your ass goodbye.<BR/><BR/>How do you fix it? Get Gov't out of it. Not willing or able to do that? Kiss your ass goodbye.<BR/><BR/>Looking for answers to a problem you're not willing to recognize, let alone fix? Kiss your ass goodbye.<BR/><BR/>What do I recommend?<BR/><BR/>Lipstick.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-86958619786481927812008-10-11T19:54:00.000-07:002008-10-11T19:54:00.000-07:00Fleas buy low and jump high. My point (not clear ...Fleas buy low and jump high. My point (not clear I’ll admit) involved your selling of ‘vandasianism’ to the disgruntled “America is heading in the wrong direction” masses, who historically tend to turn against the political incumbent when times are tough. Unless you can save the day, here comes Obama. So I look to Say’s Law for a possible answer (is there a Cliffs Notes for this stuff? My time’s a bit limited these days).<BR/><BR/><I>Say’s Law: The more goods for which there is demand that are produced, the more those goods (supply) can constitute a demand for other goods.</I><BR/><BR/>Alright, what would people want or need to buy today, besides sock darning equipment? Not much spinoff potential in needles n thread – it's gotta have lots of components. These should sell like hotcakes:<BR/><BR/>http://www.teslamotors.com/<BR/><BR/>Look at the specs. I know mechanical and electrical engineers who are clueless (when they’re not presenting some conspiracy theory) as to why Chevy, or Toyota, or whoever.. cannot mass produce, for a good price, a car that even comes close to the performance of one which a ragtag bunch of silicon valley gearheads are building. What’s going on here? Does the government need to step in to enforce or break up something? If not, who? Is Tesla selling snake oil?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-64331727162576812012008-10-11T18:51:00.000-07:002008-10-11T18:51:00.000-07:00After scanning down the wiki link and nearly ralp...After scanning down the wiki link and nearly ralphing on the bluring into Keynes, here's a link that goes back to the source.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.econlib.org/library/Say/sayTCover.html" REL="nofollow">Say's "A Treatise on Political Economy"</A>.<BR/><BR/>Beats the hell out of whatever they mistaught you in college.<BR/><BR/>At the same site, look up Bastiat, well worth your while.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-88852256685888092822008-10-11T18:41:00.000-07:002008-10-11T18:41:00.000-07:00aninnymouse said "Van, besides taking great pride ...aninnymouse said "Van, besides taking great pride in his position as village watchdog, doesn’t seem to understand or care that while one can sell practically anything they want in America, people gotta wanna buy."<BR/><BR/>While you on the other hand, as an apparent flea riding upon the back of what has already been created, you are unaware the human experience of reality.<BR/><BR/>You can wanna buy, all you want. You can even really, really, really, really, wanna, wanna, wanna, buy, but if nobody has first created something for you to buy, your dollar bill, or thousand dollar bill, is worth more as rolling paper than anything else.<BR/><BR/>Take a gander at <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Says_Law" REL="nofollow"> Say's Law</A>, and then start working your way forward. If you can manage to void the statists and marxists, you might develop beyond the state of the flea.<BR/><BR/>Woof.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-85531307764733653922008-10-11T16:58:00.000-07:002008-10-11T16:58:00.000-07:00Which anonymous? To distinguish myself from the a...Which anonymous? To distinguish myself from the anonymous hive mind, I've called myself "anonymouse". I also prefer to put my periods outside of the quotes.<BR/><BR/>I was with you until you (or another anonymous) threw this little bugger in:<BR/> <BR/><I>*isn't possible by increasing confidence.</I><BR/><BR/>hence the subsequent post.<BR/><BR/>Van, besides taking great pride in his position as village watchdog, doesn’t seem to understand or care that while one can sell practically anything they want in America, people gotta wanna buy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-32056152993276800872008-10-10T18:31:00.000-07:002008-10-10T18:31:00.000-07:00"Try the book I linked, it makes a very strong cas..."Try the book I linked, it makes a very strong case, and backs it up with documentation. Milton Freidman sketched things out as well."<BR/><BR/>Well van while you might believe that, there are also cases against it as well. Powell isn't the first to mention it, and he's not the first to be refuted. It's been a back and forth argument. If you present the right evidence for it anything can sound possible especially if only supporting evidence is presented.<BR/><BR/>I mean I could easily prove a lot of things if I ignored evidence against what supported me, and if nobody knew any different then it would sound perfectly reasonable.<BR/><BR/>As for anonymous, aren't you arguing exactly what I argued for? Except now you're trying to argue me by using my arguments. I honestly had to reread what I wrote to see if you actually negated it, which you didn't, but you somehow made it sound like you were trying to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-42566494652337250412008-10-10T13:53:00.000-07:002008-10-10T13:53:00.000-07:00The role 'confidence' plays in an economy, is that...<I>The role 'confidence' plays in an economy, is that of how confident people are that they will retain the right to their property. Damage that confidence, and the rest will be worthless.</I><BR/><BR/>The role 'confidence' plays in an economy, is that of how confident people are that they will retain their property. Damage that confidence, and the rest will be worth less.<BR/><BR/><I>Stop listening to idiots like you.</I><BR/>In other words, you have no answers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39594982306404598812008-10-10T12:25:00.000-07:002008-10-10T12:25:00.000-07:00The interesting anonymous said "I've seen that ec...The interesting anonymous said "I've seen that economists and historians are stumped on it because a few too many factors go in..."<BR/><BR/>No time now, but your description of uncertainty about the causes of the depression, and its length, grants a lot more ignorance of economic cause and effect than we now have, not to mention of the principles that always were, or rather the amount most economists grant when looking back, as compared with what they pretend to know when looking forward.<BR/><BR/>Try the book I linked, it makes a very strong case, and backs it up with documentation. Milton Freidman sketched things out as well.<BR/><BR/>the aninnymouse said "Economies are machines fueled by confidence (for lack of a better word)."<BR/><BR/>'Stock Markets' are not synonymous with the economies they serve.<BR/><BR/>The root of the economy is Production. The necessary ingredient for growing it is Law, Property Rights, and a society that respects them. The role 'confidence' plays in an economy, is that of how confident people are that they will retain the right to their property. Damage that confidence, and the rest will be worthless. <BR/><BR/>There are several studies out there ... at AEI? Cato? that show the relation of third world poverty to a lack of property rights and a legal system that isn't corrupt (<A HREF="http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.24196/pub_detail.asp" REL="nofollow">found one here</A>)<BR/><BR/>"I’m trying to get Mr. Wizard (Van) to answer what libertarian/objectivist/vandasians do not seem to answer very well: “What do we do if the worst happens?”<BR/><BR/>Stop listening to idiots like you.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-55398323260139111972008-10-10T11:56:00.000-07:002008-10-10T11:56:00.000-07:00There is only one anonymouse here.So confidence wa...There is only one anonymouse here.<BR/><BR/>So confidence was no factor with China, Chile, Columbia..?<BR/><BR/>Confidence is one variable, which varies in importance as a variable. For developed nations, confidence is most influential at the extremes – with overheated bubble building economies and with panic or depression stricken frozen economies. <BR/><BR/>I’m trying to get Mr. Wizard (Van) to answer what libertarian/objectivist/vandasians do not seem to answer very well: “What do we do if the worst happens?”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-43038544734715318692008-10-10T09:45:00.001-07:002008-10-10T09:45:00.001-07:00*isn't possible by increasing confidence.*isn't possible by increasing confidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39697595529023007812008-10-10T09:45:00.000-07:002008-10-10T09:45:00.000-07:00Well Anon #2, the thing about economies being fuel...Well Anon #2, the thing about economies being fueled by confidence is they still need enough general wealth to have an impact. If it falls beyond a sustainable system, regaining wealth isn't possible. Hence why 3rd world countries just can't just get out of being 3rd world economies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89541290325298312412008-10-10T09:41:00.001-07:002008-10-10T09:41:00.001-07:00Oh there is another anon here, sorry van I'm the o...Oh there is another anon here, sorry van I'm the one you responded too, and the one who just wrote that long response. One in the middle is somebody else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-11484535980229643992008-10-10T09:41:00.000-07:002008-10-10T09:41:00.000-07:00“I think the depression would have been much short...<I>“I think the depression would have been much shorter had it not been allowed to get so bad in the first place”<BR/><BR/>”Now there's a handy myth, war leads to prosperity because it increases production and jobs.”<BR/><BR/>“What should we do now? Honestly, I don't know.“</I><BR/><BR/>Economies are machines fueled by confidence (for lack of a better word). Confidence breeds risk-taking, new ideas, extensions of credit, living large.. which are obviously translated into expanding economic opportunities. The problem is that confidence in many humans, is tenuous at best, and they do crave the “dear leader” or focus of some sort, in tough times. Additionally, there’s a risk of a catastrophic loss of faith in the unfettered market system which could take years of preaching (by the Vans of the world) to rectify. Seems like a terrible waste of effort.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-51101875540178167382008-10-10T09:40:00.000-07:002008-10-10T09:40:00.000-07:00Oh no, Van, I wasn't saying I couldn't see how FDR...Oh no, Van, I wasn't saying I couldn't see how FDR's legislation could prolong the depression, what I'm saying is that it's a factor that essentially remains unknown in terms of what kind of damage it really did since the reason we came out of the Great Depression had nothing to do with the legislation already in place. <BR/><BR/>Additionally we don't know if it really had a negative impact anyway because--even if its only coincidence--that legislation was put in place right at lowest point of the depression, and to say things improved would be an exaggeration because really they just stopped being as bad. <BR/><BR/>We have no benchmarks because things didn't start improving beforehand. EG if we saw things improving and then FDR's solution were implemented did they slow the improvements? Well we don't actually know because no real solution came about until we realized, "Hey lets spend our way out of this mess"<BR/><BR/>I've seen that economists and historians are stumped on it because a few too many factors go in, personally I think it is a mix. I do think FDR prolonged the depression, but not any more than any other responsible parties, but we'll never really know how bad it was because somebody was smart enough to figure out we had to spend our way out. Had we not done that I'm sure the depression could have easily lasted over another 5 or 6 years. <BR/><BR/>And I'm not blaming Hoover for the depression either, but he was a little too... uh... virtuous for this country's overall well-being in a time like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-51076179213225575442008-10-10T09:20:00.000-07:002008-10-10T09:20:00.000-07:00Sorry, forgot I was dealing with an aninnymouse.Yo...Sorry, forgot I was dealing with an aninnymouse.<BR/><BR/>You may go.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31843536052300204052008-10-10T08:52:00.000-07:002008-10-10T08:52:00.000-07:00I just shutter to think where we would be economic...I just shutter to think where we would be economically if we had not liberated Iraq.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71877460913290643762008-10-10T08:09:00.000-07:002008-10-10T08:09:00.000-07:00anonymous said "Perhaps pro-labor laws and anti-co...anonymous said "Perhaps pro-labor laws and anti-competition laws did stifle economic recovery, but to what extent? ... FDR I don't think prolonged it, had he done nothing I'm sure it could have easily been longer, but what he did do was make it last longer than had other alternatives been put in place."<BR/><BR/>Ooh... looks like you just about succeeded in denying what you were starting to see... try this one, careful, it'll make evasion very painful: <BR/><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depression/dp/140005477X" REL="nofollow">FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression by Jim Powell</A><BR/><BR/>Or a quick google search found this one for free - I can't speak for the site or more than a quick scan to see if it hit the basic facts, but with that, it seemed to show some, at best, poor judgment and convenient motives regarding <A HREF="http://users.rcn.com/mgfree/Economics/goldHistory.html" REL="nofollow"> the biggest Gold heist </A>in history.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I don't put dark or nefarious motives to FDR, or his attempts at handling the situation, but his acceptance of <I>New! Progressive! Scientific!</I> notions for Gov't to manage the market - and substitute its conclusions for the choices people would otherwise have made - caused nearly inconceivable harm, not only to our economy, but to the world, and not just to its economy. Where would Hitler have been, without the crises of the Great Depression?<BR/><BR/>Decisions of this scale have long range consequences... as I'm afraid we're soon to find out.<BR/><BR/>Yes Hoover was most definitely culpable. A 'conservative' who tried to juggle ideas of a Free Market, with the wizbang new popular Progressive ideas, he, like our current President Bush, didn't fully understand the ideas behind the free market (which are <I>Not</I> economic, but which do result in free economic policies), caved, and went with Gov't controls.<BR/><BR/>Hoover, FDR, Bush... weren't bad people, or even foolish people, but they didn't understand what they should have, and they believed that Gov't not only could, but <I>should</I> solve the problem; and that ensured that all the rest would follow. BTW, Hoover didn't cause it either, he only furthered it along. If you want a more tangible cause, look to Wilson and <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act" REL="nofollow">The Federal Reserve Act</A> of 1913 (a very bad year), but even there, the intellectual roots, and some precedents, go further back as well.<BR/><BR/>What should we do now? Honestly, I don't know. I suspect, that the best thing to do would be to let the bankruptcies happen and the market to handle it - as they will need to in the end, even with the Gov't controls telling them how to handle it - but the market is so far from free now, so wrapped up in, and hamstrung by regulations and agencies... I really don't know.<BR/><BR/>The idea that this bailout (getaway would be a better label) will solve or prevent anything at all is, I think, very wishful thinking. There is going to be a huge problem, the real question is how long it will be forced to play out, and how wide and deep it's effects will be made to go.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-11187590696129526142008-10-10T07:49:00.000-07:002008-10-10T07:49:00.000-07:00anon - Solved? I'm definitely gonna have to go wit...anon - Solved? I'm definitely gonna have to go with the Pope on this one...<BR/><BR/>"...the global credit crisis shows that the world's financial systems are "built on sand" and that only the works of God have "solid reality". <BR/><BR/>"We are now seeing, in the collapse of major banks, that money vanishes, it is nothing. All these things that appear to be real are in fact secondary. Only God's words are a solid reality."<BR/><BR/>Sand.NoMohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01100042056270224683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-27606162066459839672008-10-10T07:42:00.000-07:002008-10-10T07:42:00.000-07:00"had it not been for all the extra spending d..."had it not been for all the extra spending during the war."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Now there's a handy myth, war leads to prosperity because it increases production and jobs. Consumption nosedives before and during war, demand goes in the toilet, and converting production to war goods, the price for which is set, the suspension of the free market, R&D is devoted totally to killing, etc. War is invariably bad for the economy, since you kill consumers or send them overseas. Only when the war ended, and people started procreating, did things get better, when all the pent up demand from the war released. War is always an evil, sometimes a necessary one, but never good for anything, except as negating a negation is good - in a negative way.<BR/><BR/>post hoc ergo propter hoc.Niggardly Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14998145440801860527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-8500455509046544002008-10-10T06:49:00.000-07:002008-10-10T06:49:00.000-07:00Well the cause of the length of the Great Depressi...Well the cause of the length of the Great Depression is arguable. The New Deal was really just hiding some of the symptoms, but I think that's been known for some time. I seriously doubt personally that Roosevelt prolonged it, because honestly with 25% unemployment it could have gone on forever had it not been for all the extra spending during the war.<BR/><BR/>But honestly where do you go when you have 1/4 of workers with no jobs?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps pro-labor laws and anti-competition laws did stifle economic recovery, but to what extent? Considering the worst year of the Great Depression was the year he signed those into law I don't see how there is any conclusive evidence. It isn't like the economy was on the upside by the time those laws were signed, so what correlation do the economist have that FDR prolonged it?<BR/><BR/> I mean, what about the tariffs proposed by Hoover that deepened the depression? Or the fact that the workers weren't given any relief right off the bat? I think the depression would have been much shorter had it not been allowed to get so bad in the first place, and FDR's contribution to its duration pales in comparison to Hoover's. Roosevelt for sure didn't come up with the plan that ended the depression, but it was going to be long no matter what. FDR I don't think prolonged it, had he done nothing I'm sure it could have easily been longer, but what he did do was make it last longer than had other alternatives been put in place. The thing is the depression could have been longer had it not been for the issue of spending.<BR/><BR/>But now the issue with this economic problem is that we've over-spent. How will this economic crisis be solved?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73939179703187155122008-10-10T06:21:00.000-07:002008-10-10T06:21:00.000-07:00"You must be very, very careful about the ideas yo..."You must be very, very careful about the ideas you allow to take up residence in your head, because they will end up sharply limiting your ability to know the Real, which always transcends any idea you have about it."<BR/><BR/>"Taking every thought captive..."<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I visualize this by enclosing the hell-born thought in a "thought bubble" and sending it to God (with an "I'm sorry" attached).<BR/><BR/>Wow, Julie. That link you gave perfectly illustrates the evils of bureaucracy.<BR/><BR/>Bob, your post is a wonderful explication of being in the world, but not of it...of living in a totally different "stream." What a vivid illustration Finn's unfortunate end was. <BR/><BR/>It occurred to me while I was contemplating this post and the last one that Leslie's friend rejected her because she cannot access the living stream. She's replaced multi-dimensional living with one-dimensional living. It's amazing how quickly a person's moral sense goes south when they reject the only true Source of goodness; how the hardened heart views good as evil and vice versa. <BR/><BR/>Being a total jerk to people you supposedly "care about" and have an invested relationship with, suddenly becomes a good thing, done service to your politician (idol)-worship. Rudeness, hatred, vile language...it's at unprecedented levels. Remember what the left did to Rick Santorum? Junior high name ridicule, in service of...what? We're supposed to believe a cause that uses such tactics is a righteous one? Cf. that pile of steaming bile somebody recently wrote about her visceral hatred of Sarah Palin. Well, there have been so many that I've lost count. Is it any wonder we look on with alarm at what leftism does to people? They would have us believe the world will be a better place with them in charge?<BR/><BR/>I can't even imagine... My MIL votes opposite of me most of the time, I'm sure, but I love her, and she loves me. I can't even imagine rejecting each other over a crappy *politician.*<BR/><BR/>It's obvious that quite a few people out there badly need to get religion. They are replacing faith in God with some pretty poisonous stuff. <BR/><BR/>"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever!"Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-13999386365461101112008-10-10T00:20:00.000-07:002008-10-10T00:20:00.000-07:00So much for late-nite trolling. Looks like everybo...So much for late-nite trolling. Looks like everybody still has a job. <BR/><BR/>So how about some good non-governmental solutions to these worldwide confidence crises - as in a 'panic antidote'? Remember, government involvement will be considered cheating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-80561590802945541222008-10-09T22:17:00.000-07:002008-10-09T22:17:00.000-07:00Thanks, loser.The dumbass can't figure out that th...Thanks, loser.<BR/><BR/>The dumbass can't figure out that the Lord is punishing America for its greed!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3285997319404217272008-10-09T22:12:00.000-07:002008-10-09T22:12:00.000-07:00"why do you want another woman when you have no id..."why do you want another woman when you have no idea how to appreciate the one you have?"<BR/><BR/>Deu 24:5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com