tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post3602894805438173042..comments2024-03-27T11:16:36.951-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Omniscience, Omnipotence, OmnipathosGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-91422766091880343802014-11-30T16:04:45.747-08:002014-11-30T16:04:45.747-08:00Just got a moment to read this.
It's ... wond...Just got a moment to read this. <br />It's ... wonderful.Joan of Argghh!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14729682908266300507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-81700234127112286492014-11-26T09:19:24.451-08:002014-11-26T09:19:24.451-08:00Yes, if we imagine that God "changes," t...Yes, if we imagine that God "changes," then it can only be from perfection to perfection, so to speak. Like the Beatles from '62 to '67.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-27611382665374644082014-11-26T08:46:57.074-08:002014-11-26T08:46:57.074-08:00Bob, I agree that the idea that God could grow see...Bob, I agree that the idea that God could grow seems almost blasphemous but mightn't that be because of the dual nature of reality, absolute and relative? Of course, the absolute can't grow but its expression can. And that's the joy and abundance of creation. <br /><br />But, you're right, this idea has to treated cautiously and I'm only feeling my way here. Could one say that God doesn't grow in his essence but can do through his expression?William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39637908691581560862014-11-26T07:53:03.322-08:002014-11-26T07:53:03.322-08:00I do understand and respect those who reject it, h...I do understand and respect those who reject it, however. For some reason it is a radical idea, perhaps because it can be so easily misunderstood, or descend into pantheism, or detract from the majesty of God, etc. All the more reason to carefully think it through. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-54404727297153096812014-11-26T07:50:18.632-08:002014-11-26T07:50:18.632-08:00William:
I find myself intuitively drawn to just ...William:<br /><br />I find myself intuitively drawn to just that line of thought. It makes sense of things that otherwise make no sense at all...Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-36914154759212832252014-11-26T07:30:22.900-08:002014-11-26T07:30:22.900-08:00Good points, William!
Absolutely and relatively we...Good points, William!<br />Absolutely and relatively well said. USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-740875335648393522014-11-26T07:05:31.117-08:002014-11-26T07:05:31.117-08:00I think Hartshorne's concept of "Dual Tra...I think Hartshorne's concept of "Dual Transcendence" fits nicely here.tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354048695798015131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-79734402318151866722014-11-26T06:50:57.246-08:002014-11-26T06:50:57.246-08:00I’ve been reading your blog for a while now and fi...I’ve been reading your blog for a while now and find it one of the most spiritually perceptive I’ve come across so thanks for all your many insights.<br /><br /> What has prompted me to comment is your remark that God ‘changes’. I think this is very true and that it is the reason for this whole world of creation, us included. In the absolute sense God is always and forever complete and perfect, and nothing can be added to or taken away from Him. But through involvement in time and through giving us self-conscious beings individuality, there is a sense in which He grows (as the universe is said to expand), and this can only happen in a world of change and becoming. The religions which tend to idolize the Absolute and consequently downgrade the personal God, such as, in their different ways, Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta, don’t properly appreciate the relevance of the relative and so have only half the truth. God is not just the absolute but the absolute and the relative together, always and equally, and any spiritual approach which ignores that is incomplete. In my view!William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-80901661996719377822014-11-25T18:11:00.223-08:002014-11-25T18:11:00.223-08:00EbonyRaptor said...""Sympathetic but que...EbonyRaptor said...""Sympathetic but questioning" Sounds kinda like "trust but verify" :)"<br /><br />Or that Trusting <i>is</i> Verifying. I suspect that just as 3D can be impressively represented in 2D, but not possibly mistaken for it by anyone who's seen the real thing, our 3D expectation of <b>OC</b>D, is as good as we can imagine... and what we can't imagine, probably fills in the gaps rather nicely. Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37724768047366438472014-11-25T17:50:53.970-08:002014-11-25T17:50:53.970-08:00"As Hartshorne writes, "Power to cause s..."As Hartshorne writes, "Power to cause someone to perform by his own choice an act precisely defined by the cause is meaningless." Again, if God's omnipotence excludes our limited potency, then he is as pointlessly enclosed in his own circuitous locution as any deconstructionist."<br /><br />The issue which both the predestinationists And the materialistic determinists don't grasp, is that what they imagine as being 'Power!', the ability to trigger human action as if by machinery or puppetry, is the furthest thing from power their is; it isn't an expression of power, but of the most shallow, brittle, uncomprehending weakness. <br /><br />Wisdom and power come from understanding principles and deeper truths, not manipulation; from willing choices, not mindless spasms. Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-62766649580740129592014-11-25T17:38:24.847-08:002014-11-25T17:38:24.847-08:00That's what I suspect. Otherwise Christ would...That's what I suspect. Otherwise Christ would have been a very different God -- more of power and omniscience than compassion and surrender.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-54803667272717256272014-11-25T17:18:23.708-08:002014-11-25T17:18:23.708-08:00"The ineffable and eternal YHWH can't pos..."The ineffable and eternal YHWH can't possibly be more perfect..."<br /><br />Maybe perfect's not all it's cracked up to be.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13720790978632771716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-38402427020143435332014-11-25T14:14:57.199-08:002014-11-25T14:14:57.199-08:00That's what Waylon meant when he sang:
"...That's what Waylon meant when he sang:<br /><br />"What started out to be a joke the law don't understand."Skullynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-42688046747596513162014-11-25T14:11:22.992-08:002014-11-25T14:11:22.992-08:00Mushroom:
Or maybe God was just ribbing Adam.Mushroom:<br /><br />Or maybe God was just ribbing Adam.USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-83518332027311198232014-11-25T13:28:12.938-08:002014-11-25T13:28:12.938-08:00But there is also growth, development, maturation,...<i>But there is also growth, development, maturation, perfection ...</i><br /><br />That causes me to stumble. I don't think it is just the Greeks. The only way through is via the Trinity. The revelation of the Lord before Christ is of a perfect God who "changes not". But the hypostatic union in the God-Man offers something new.<br /><br /><i>And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.</i> (Luke 2:52, ESV)<br /><br />The ineffable and eternal YHWH can't possibly be more perfect, but through His creation, and very explicitly in the Incarnation He can come to Himself.<br /><br />Perhaps it is not so different than God looking around for a match for Adam and finally resorting to pulling out a rib and showing him what he had been missing.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-10204630733726985442014-11-25T12:37:13.621-08:002014-11-25T12:37:13.621-08:00"Sympathetic but questioning"
Sounds k...<i> "Sympathetic but questioning" </i><br /><br />Sounds kinda like "trust but verify" :)EbonyRaptorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02483546359869912858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-4588943237081836052014-11-25T12:05:01.776-08:002014-11-25T12:05:01.776-08:00Sympathetic but questioning -- join the club!Sympathetic but questioning -- join the club!Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-86535263640766092462014-11-25T11:34:21.327-08:002014-11-25T11:34:21.327-08:00I remain sympathetic but questioning.
Sympatheti...I remain sympathetic but questioning. <br /><br />Sympathetic because God, being creative and good, must take joy in his ongoing creation and our response to it and Him. Those relations must be ongoing and alive. <br /><br />My questions have to do with how to describe the be-ing of God. Theologians I talk to see Hartshorne as saying questionable things about God's immanence in nature. There's something troubling to them about how he describes ontology. Maybe that's where the charge of pantheism comes from. <br /><br />Bob, you might be interested in John Betz's first-ever translation of Erich Przywara's Analogia Entis. Przwayara was a mentor both to Barth (Protestant) and Balthasar (Catholic). He apparently talks about being in terms of "divine rhythm." Balthasar as you know used pictorial terms, which are more static.<br /><br />Anyway, sympathetic and questioning here.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00987042455512485699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-19820502361930931312014-11-25T10:58:44.610-08:002014-11-25T10:58:44.610-08:00And I do believe that God would not be God without...And I do believe that God would not be God without creation -- not this one per se, but creativity as such. Again, I go back to the first sentence of the Bible, which obviously emphasizes that God is first and foremost Creator. But to be "constrained" by creativity is a kind of paradox, because it is the one thing that always surpasses constraints! Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-52209776511236898622014-11-25T10:56:07.743-08:002014-11-25T10:56:07.743-08:00Right: it's like, would God be God if he were...Right: it's like, would God be God if he weren't good? If not, it implies that he is "constrained" by his goodness. And that is precisely what Muslims do not believe. Rather, they insist that God has no such constraints, and that he just does what he does for entirely inscrutable reasons.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-8346034877559369972014-11-25T10:50:06.662-08:002014-11-25T10:50:06.662-08:00"He does make the controversial claim that Go...<i> "He does make the controversial claim that God "needs" the creation, ... " </i><br /><br />That's an interesting topic. I think "need" connotes a dependency without which one is left incomplete or unable or unsustained, none of which would seem to apply to God. But, would God be God without His creation? What would He be God of? So strictly in a literal sense an argument can be made that God needs His creation to be "God", where the word god is used as a title or definition. That's not to suggest that The Supreme Being could not exist without his creation because obviously He existed before He created His creation, only that perhaps to be God requires a world or cosmos to be "God of".EbonyRaptorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02483546359869912858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-25657209833213904532014-11-25T10:44:37.790-08:002014-11-25T10:44:37.790-08:00Okay, then I'm not sorry. :)
I get it now tha...Okay, then I'm not sorry. :)<br /><br />I get it now that I reread it. I think I need a nap. USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-87480819173738044042014-11-25T10:14:52.233-08:002014-11-25T10:14:52.233-08:00Ben:
That was not a criticism! Much less of comm...Ben:<br /><br />That was not a criticism! Much less of comments on the passing scene, since this is an all purpose, all dimension blog.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-715592731235797672014-11-25T09:54:40.623-08:002014-11-25T09:54:40.623-08:00This leads to one of Hartshorne's most controv...<i>This leads to one of Hartshorne's most controversial ideas, that God "changes." Quite simply, he changes because he is truly receptive to his creation -- hence also the "suffering with." Hartshorne believes that the emphasis on the notion of Unchanging Absolute -- as we've discussed in the past -- is a Greek import, not truly biblical (not to mention incoherent and ultimately absurd).</i><br /><br />Reading Exodus, the way the story is written God seems to spend an awful lot of time being surprised at the obstinacy of man - and changing his plans accordingly - for someone who never changes.<br /><br />In fact, Exodus 32:14: "So the Lord changed his mind about the punishment he had threatened to inflict on his people."juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28411866833049086742014-11-25T09:48:51.803-08:002014-11-25T09:48:51.803-08:00One thing that Hartshorne highlights is the "...<i>One thing that Hartshorne highlights is the "omnipathos" of God. This is a very useful word, because it means that, in addition to being all-knowing and all-powerful, he is all-feeling. Right there we see an interesting Trinity consisting of truth, love, and power, each conditioned by the other. More to the point, if we deny God's omnipathos, there is no way for him to meaningfully relate to us -- to put himself in our shoes. But isn't this what the Incarnation is all about?</i><br /><br />Again, Solomon:<br /><br />"or, being upright yourself, you rule the universe uprightly, and hold it as incompatible with your power to condemn anyone who has not deserved to be punished.<br /><br />16 For your strength is the basis of your saving justice, and your sovereignty over all makes you lenient to all.<br /><br />17 You show your strength when people will not believe in your absolute power, and you confound any insolence in those who do know it.<br /><br />18 But you, controlling your strength, are mild in judgement, and govern us with great lenience, for you have only to will, and your power is there.<br /><br />19 By acting thus, you have taught your people that the upright must be kindly to his fellows, and you have given your children the good hope that after sins you will grant repentance."juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.com