tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post3272906572023213216..comments2024-03-28T12:10:26.197-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Cosmic Love: The Gift that Keeps Giving (and Receiving)Gagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-59821466135750476392010-07-14T18:52:47.076-07:002010-07-14T18:52:47.076-07:00Gagdad said "So in that sense, it does what a...Gagdad said "So in that sense, it does what a "good enough mother" would do, i.e., preserve and protect the continuity of being from impingement and trauma. "<br /><br />FIrst off, I should say, I've got nada to go on here other than what seems an interesting idea, and of course I would put the typical narcissistic ... what, symptoms? behaviors? and theories as the rules to follow (as if any blog comment by me could be taken as anything more than what it is... but... anyway).<br /><br />Especially since I'm not going on anything here but the barest inkling, which without actual experience and evidence to go with, should probably be looked at as totally arbitrary (and being that that sort of top-down rationalist methodology is the hallmark of Descartes... you can guess how comfortable I am even mentioning it...). But. It's got a bit of a ring to it.<br /><br />If it is so, that the persona, the mask is in some way seen as a 'mother' or protector to their protected self, it is, to me, an intriguing thought, and combined with the vast knowledge of attachment theory I have (which <i>miiight</i> fill a couple paragraphs)... the idea of someone who is a narcissist, who has the manufactured persona as mask for the unloved & perhaps unlovable self, I can see there being an underlying sense, a motivating niggle, with that other persona taking the place of mom, I can see them <i>wanting</i> to give nic-nacs and gifts to momma, as every child does, and with each new bit of attention grabbed for 'me', internally gathered in order to give it to the 'mom', for the purpose of immediately seeking from it a 'where's my hug?!'.<br /><br />(<i>'Damn, still no hug, gotta get some more attention goodies, give those to ma' too, maybe that'll get me a hug....'</i>)<br /><br />It might sound crazy, but I mean, sorry to be un-pc, but, crazy talk is sorta what you should expect from crazies. Right?<br /><br />There may be nothing more to this than a kernel of a plot for an interesting novel... at best... but something seems right in it.<br /><br />Ok, giving my 'The Doctor is in' sign back to Lucy to hang on her lemonade stand.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-54538048970496209072010-07-14T18:35:41.660-07:002010-07-14T18:35:41.660-07:00Magnus said,
"For instance if one decides to ...Magnus said,<br />"For instance if one decides to give love to others in order to improve one's own spiritual standing, holiness or whatever... that is also a love that takes, rather than a love that gives."<br /><br />The other day I smoked this over at Mushroom's joint. It's similar to what Magnus says, but I think if it's true, there is a positive aspect to it.<br /><br />"Funny, I was going to ask Bob, since he used the word charity today, if he thought or had read maybe that charity might actually be an act of love by God to the giver as well. Sort of a triune nature to it. In other words, does God (1) in a sense plea out of love for me (2) to give to another (3) for it will, say, fill the receiver of the charity and the giver with the Holy Spirit?<br />So that the "feeling good" about it by the giver wasn't just some by product - but maybe even the point?"Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50112166401146103802010-07-14T18:03:06.764-07:002010-07-14T18:03:06.764-07:00Maybe you're just mostly an introvert, Jason. ...Maybe you're just mostly an introvert, Jason. I think I could've written that post twenty years ago or so.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31224118729238280752010-07-14T16:43:03.844-07:002010-07-14T16:43:03.844-07:00Being a "user of others" as Jason says, ...Being a "user of others" as Jason says, that is certainly something with several levels. For instance if one decides to give love to others in order to improve one's own spiritual standing, holiness or whatever... that is also a love that takes, rather than a love that gives. Or that's what the voice in my head told me.<br /><br />Ironically, I think it creeps out ordinary people that I have no interest in being loved by humans. Well, no noticeable interest at least. People who are not insane generally feel that there has to be some kind of balance, a give and take. If you never need cheering up, if you listen to praise and criticism with the same detached curiosity, people will feel that you are not on their wavelength.Magnus Itlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18445902788427523461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31220114524422095492010-07-14T15:54:17.678-07:002010-07-14T15:54:17.678-07:00The callings of my true self--reading, writing, me...The callings of my true self--reading, writing, meditating, performing poetry, taking photographs, attending group spiritual functions and discussions, learning about others' lives, dreams, and passions--have been the basis of learning how to love myself, to be alone and find peace and happiness connecting with ideas and transcendental realities. What I have found, though, is that I have a great deal of difficulty bringing that joy to other people, that I don't care for others as much as I should from the Heart, that there is always a hidden agenda. I am a user of others.<br /><br />In other words, I thought I was fine because I 'escaped the insanity' (yeah right!) of the television absorbed hand-to-mouth culture of my up-bringing through personal practices, all the while I was ignoring the fact that I have a terrible time sharing with actual human beings--because I am not a whole human being. My false self is still there, and it appears whenever I try and interact in a situation that takes me out of my cultivated internal comfort zone.<br /><br />Anyway, not really looking for solutions, just nice to share with others and know that it is not just me walking around with all this unconscious self sabotaging and fakery going on. I am incredibly thankful to have an ideal to shoot for, though, so thanks to you guys for expounding on the idea of Man As Such.Jason T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14461929156658839789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-61416025674348707742010-07-14T14:45:24.552-07:002010-07-14T14:45:24.552-07:00Insight without relationships is a little like pia...Insight without relationships is a little like piano lessons without a piano.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-72116895967955081792010-07-14T14:43:32.391-07:002010-07-14T14:43:32.391-07:00"What are some solid methods for giving birth..."What are some solid methods for giving birth to the true self from the false?<br /><br />Really, that's like asking "how should one live?" Long answer.<br /><br />"Is self consciousness sufficient, or is it relationships that heal?"<br /><br />I don't believe self-consciousness is sufficient, certainly not for healing. For one thing as soon as you get into a deep relationship, you'll be flooded with all the deeper things that insight alone can't touch. Then the idea is to have insight into <i>that</i>.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-9715936413949345532010-07-14T13:34:26.796-07:002010-07-14T13:34:26.796-07:00...certain narcissists are notorious for imagining...<i>...certain narcissists are notorious for imagining that they are giving milk when they are really giving you poop</i><br /><br />Let's just leave Barack out of this.<br /><br />I freaks me out that I used to have a recurring dream like that. Maybe I'm worse off than I thought.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-23236992565047762292010-07-14T13:25:55.332-07:002010-07-14T13:25:55.332-07:00It's hard to explain, because "false self...It's hard to explain, because "false self" is a term of art developed by D.W. Winnicott, who felt that it was put in place as a defense mechanism in order to protect the "continuity of being" of the true self. <br /><br />So in that sense, it does what a "good enough mother" would do, i.e., preserve and protect the continuity of being from impingement and trauma. <br /><br />At the same time, it negotiates with the environment, looking for situations and relationships in which the true self can express itself and "come out and play." Thus, it is not as if there is a radical distinction between false and true self, more as if the false self is a protective barrier for the true self.<br /><br />Or, when there is a radical disjunction, that's when you've got real pathology, because it's as if the false self hijacks the whole personality, or as if one identifies with it. This seems to happen with a lot of celebrities -- as if their public persona is "real."Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-47259174105078215272010-07-14T13:09:37.431-07:002010-07-14T13:09:37.431-07:00Van, maybe it's just me but that still sounds ...Van, maybe it's just me but that still sounds a little confusing. I don't know if people really experience their false self as a "mother" persona, necessarily. Not that I'm any more qualified to remark on it than you :)<br /><br />I have seen the mock giving that Bob talks about, though, where the gift is often unwanted and the receiver is expected to be obligated somehow. The worst person I've known like that was a mother who could not handle her college-age kids gaining any sort of independence. The gifting was part of an elaborate skill set of manipulative behaviors, heavily dosed with guilt. If they tried to break away, she'd give them something, whilst making it clear that she was making a huge sacrifice so they owed her; if they did not pay up, they didn't love her enough after all she had done for them, etc. Of course, this wasn't limited to her kids, but they got the worst of it, and unless they were able to break free somehow they were all heading for a lifetime of depression and failure. It was awful to see, a kind of smothering desperation where there was a lot of love, but it was all warped.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-61924736104285049202010-07-14T12:25:24.268-07:002010-07-14T12:25:24.268-07:00"Of all the things in existence, only a human..."Of all the things in existence, only a human being can be false. But this is only an unfortunate but necessary corollary to the fact that only the human being may conform himself to truth."<br /><br />This really resonated with me. It's a truism everybody knows deep down, too, and cannot help but act accordingly, even if they deny it consciously.<br /><br />"How good it is that you exist!" That so perfectly sums up what every soul hungers to hear.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-62310310158978998212010-07-14T12:23:05.436-07:002010-07-14T12:23:05.436-07:00Gagdad said "I'm not completely clear on ...Gagdad said "I'm not completely clear on the question..."<br /><br />Considering that the notion struck me during a break from c++ hell, that's not too surprising.<br /><br />It may be a bit too 'Freaky Freudie' for a Wodensday, but one of the possibilities that struck me from,<br /><br />"...not just a persona or mask that is presented to the world, but a kind of substitute mother..."<br /><br />, was that if they are somehow seeing this mask as a substitute mother, couldn't they possibly be intending to grab all that attention not for themselves, but as an odd way of trying to lavish attention upon their 'mother'? And if that's not too beyond the pale, could they in some way actually be experiencing the narcissicistic <i>'Look at me!'</i> shtick as an odd way of saying 'Here you go ma, I reeeally luv you!'?<br /><br />Or maybe as psychologising goes I should just stick to c++?<br /><br />(groan)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-72228577476701025232010-07-14T12:16:10.026-07:002010-07-14T12:16:10.026-07:00"Some psychoanalytic theorists put it exactly..."Some psychoanalytic theorists put it exactly that way -- that the false self is "pregnant" with the true self, awaiting the conditions in which it will be safe enough to be "born" in the world. I don't want to give the impression that one is permanently screwed just because of poor attachment to one's parents, as it is eminently possible to have healing and transformative relationships later in life."<br /><br />What are some solid methods for giving birth to the true self from the false? If one has identified the false self, which seems to me to be life energy fed into a series of unconsciously held false beliefs, how to break the cycle? Is it just a matter of seeing the falsity of the thought patterns, or does it take authentic relationships to dissolve the structure? Is self consciousness sufficient, or is it relationships that heal?Jason T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14461929156658839789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-41698490401940169632010-07-14T11:33:57.066-07:002010-07-14T11:33:57.066-07:00I'm not completely clear on the question, but ...I'm not completely clear on the question, but such individuals can engage in a kind of mock giving that is mixed in with various "hooks." Also, certain narcissists are notorious for imagining that they are giving milk when they are really giving you poop.<br /><br />Conversely, the more "schizoid" type cannot give love because deep down they think their love is hurtful or poisonous, or that it is so hungry that it will "devour" the other person. Therefore, they actually "protect" others from their love.<br /><br />But in both cases, I think the more general principle is the failure to be an open system, that is, to either radiate love or to receive and metabolize it. One of the first papers I published in a professional journal was on this very subject.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-42294630255621039492010-07-14T11:21:49.280-07:002010-07-14T11:21:49.280-07:00Gagdad siad "..that the false self is "p...Gagdad siad "..that the false self is "pregnant" with the true self, awaiting the conditions in which it will be safe enough to be "born" in the world..."<br /><br />It really is a fertile idea. <br /><br />To noodle on just one implication, it lends a different perspective upon those who are so involved with themselves, who almost obsessively direct all attention to themselves. It becomes a bit more understandable with the idea that they maybe 'unconsciously' drawing attention less to themselves, than 'giving' it to their adopted Mother... I wonder, do you think they have any internal sensation of that? Of a mock sense of giving, rather than just continually taking and grabbing? It'd actually make it easier on me, in thinking of a few of those types I've known - a little tough to swallow, but it'd be nicer somehow to picture them in that light, rather than as their actions make them appear.<br /><br />Still, at some point someone's got to help them to realize that they've gone well beyond the normal gestation period... bring on the Pitocin already!Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-82109773031510209982010-07-14T10:55:33.156-07:002010-07-14T10:55:33.156-07:00From the ShrinkWrapped link,
"...the Death Ea...From the ShrinkWrapped link,<br /><i>"...the Death Eaters comes from the Harry Potter books. Death Eaters are wizards who have sworn allegiance to Voldemort. They despise their "inferiors"... abhor those things that bring joy to people, worship at the feet of a monster who himself attempts to defeat Death, and love nothing more than pure power ... The modern Death Eaters are the Islamists who "love death" and mock us for "loving life." Their cult is so powerful that it perverts the most basic of human desires... The Cult of the Death eaters will not be defeated until their acolytes in the West are routed, and this is a difficult job. Western Intellectuals have always had an attraction to dangerous and deadly "men of action", evil men who they admire for their ability to act, which shames men who only exist as passive observers of events</i>..."<br /><br />Wouldn't it be nice if the Harry Potter stories were fictional?<br /><br />As Dumbledore tells Harry, "...there is coming a time when we will all have to choose between what is Right and what is easy..."Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-85374275801186903222010-07-14T10:48:20.023-07:002010-07-14T10:48:20.023-07:00Therefore, one should thank one's false self b...Therefore, one should thank one's false self before discarding it, for it made the best of a less than optimal situation.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28227992574740920632010-07-14T10:44:27.335-07:002010-07-14T10:44:27.335-07:00Excellent observation. Some psychoanalytic theori...Excellent observation. Some psychoanalytic theorists put it exactly that way -- that the false self is "pregnant" with the true self, awaiting the conditions in which it will be safe enough to be "born" in the world. I don't want to give the impression that one is permanently screwed just because of poor attachment to one's parents, as it is eminently possible to have healing and transformative relationships later in life. Both Mrs. G and I would strongly attest to this.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-59557953458874445592010-07-14T10:27:36.937-07:002010-07-14T10:27:36.937-07:00"The false self is developed in order to cope..."The false self is developed in order to cope with the fact that the deeper self was never confirmed in infancy and childhood. Therefore, it is not just a persona or mask that is presented to the world, but a kind of substitute mother that protects the core from being hurt, rejected, and retraumatized."<br /><br /><i>That</i> is a very interesting idea... pregnant even....Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-33487371124912905882010-07-14T09:57:31.412-07:002010-07-14T09:57:31.412-07:00And re the love that flows from infants, Grotstein...And re the love that flows from infants, Grotstein compared them to a psychic "poultice" that draws things out of us, both poison and honey, depending on the case.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-9986164833443686282010-07-14T09:50:46.025-07:002010-07-14T09:50:46.025-07:00Beyond chilling. A total cosmic inversion.Beyond chilling. A total cosmic inversion.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-12167514950365935262010-07-14T09:30:47.038-07:002010-07-14T09:30:47.038-07:00Shrinkwrapped's post for today is a chilling m...<a href="http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2010/07/the-cult-of-the-death-eaters-.html" rel="nofollow">Shrinkwrapped's post</a> for today is a chilling mirror of this one.<br /><br />Back to a lighter note, <i>"What being loved makes being do is precisely: be."</i><br /><br />This past weekend the baby was introduced to his paternal family at his aunt's 50th birthday party. I barely saw him for most of the evening, but it was fascinating to see the effect he had on the people holding him. Infants may not be able to demonstrate love, yet somehow it flows from them all the same.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.com