tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post115893758456489033..comments2024-03-28T20:04:20.286-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Will the Real Reality Please Stand Out?Gagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1159027551143475132006-09-23T09:05:00.000-07:002006-09-23T09:05:00.000-07:00My pleasure, Gecko. Sometimes, we all can use ext...My pleasure, Gecko. Sometimes, we all can use extra positive vibes, so to speak! Your observation is true and yes history will repeat itself and I'm sure this will not be the last appearance.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04969685296436358865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158986018333311162006-09-22T21:33:00.000-07:002006-09-22T21:33:00.000-07:00Gee Whiz. Bobbleheads, here is the Wilber conversa...Gee Whiz. Bobbleheads, here is the Wilber conversation and I've been missing it because I was exploring Ken's new Holon online mag. He has definately got the cool visuals and the tech stuff going and it was easy to link to the photo of the stylish hospital gown burga to make the muslim woman feel more at home in a couple of hospitals in England. It's cool, Ken's cool and Narj, you might like it over there. Wilber has created a compelling, seductive site but after linking with the select Integral International thirty five person multicultural group to take a Integral seminar in Fwance this Oct with lots of UN folks (who knows, Chavez, Dinnerjacket perhaps even Gore) I lickity split right back to Bobbleland and skipping tedious comments ( thanks for the beautiful blessing Lisa ) have to say how clean the air is at One Cosmos. I seem to remember a similar farewell from Narg months ago?Geckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11150958111957262924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158983327644903202006-09-22T20:48:00.000-07:002006-09-22T20:48:00.000-07:00Hi Bob: Great post, one of your best. There is ...Hi Bob: Great post, one of your best. There is one point I would like to discuss further.<BR/><BR/>You wrote:<BR/><BR/>"There are so many religious “talkers” out there whose talk is precisely vacuous--it is literally empty, devoid of the experiential light that would give it real meaning."<BR/><BR/>Is the kind of 'experiential light' you are talking about experiences such as personal realiziations of God that come sometimes during quite moments, small miracles that visit a person's life, a feeling of God's presence, and the intimations of God felt in the mind and so forth? Or do you mean ordinary hardships that build character?<BR/><BR/> If the former, then what is meant in the following section? <BR/><BR/>You wrote: <BR/><BR/>"Virtually any person who claims realized knowledge of this type [spiritual knowledge] outside a traditional framework is either self-deluded or a con man (there are exceptions to every rule, of course)."<BR/><BR/>These passages would indicate that 1.) There is a positive premium placed on spiritual experiences, and 2.) They are very rare, and most reported instances are spurious, hence the mention of the self-deluded and the con-men. 3.)Real experiences are found mostly couched in traditional terminology or doctrine, either Christian, Jewish, Muslim or what have you, and that outside of these systems experiences must be regarded with scepticism.<BR/><BR/>Is this what you meant to convey, or am I reading it wrong? What is your personal take on spiritual experiences, ala the old "conversion narratives" of the Puritans? Do such conversions occur today or are they mostly bogus? Do you have spiritual experiences yourself? If so, what form do they take?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158982110552007062006-09-22T20:28:00.000-07:002006-09-22T20:28:00.000-07:00P. S.Shouldn't you be out looking for work rather ...P. S.<BR/>Shouldn't you be out looking for work rather than wasting time here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158981853857055412006-09-22T20:24:00.000-07:002006-09-22T20:24:00.000-07:00Nags,If and when you realize the true depths of yo...Nags,<BR/><BR/>If and when you realize the true depths of your own narcissism, every answer to the questions you've been asking will become perfectly clear. That by truly knowing your own selfish, egotistical motives, you will intuit them in the rest of the world.<BR/>It's the crawling before walking stage yet it is imperitive this stage is realized before moving on. Most people here have passed though this stage which is why what you write is so transparent. It's not a misunderstanding, we understand only too well.<BR/>I hope you will realize that milestone in your life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158961961612193542006-09-22T14:52:00.000-07:002006-09-22T14:52:00.000-07:00"Maps are for people who don't know where they are..."Maps are for people who don't know where they are, don't no where they are going, or don't know how to get there."<BR/><BR/>This may be true of external maps, but is it also true of internal ones? When you know where you are, where you're going, and how to get there, isn't this only because you have an internal map that guides you, whether you've created that map entirely from your own explorations, borrowed it from elswhere and internalized it, or done some combination of the two?<BR/><BR/>--SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158961251009816542006-09-22T14:40:00.000-07:002006-09-22T14:40:00.000-07:00Stu,I don't plan to leave entirely, although I rea...Stu,<BR/><BR/>I don't plan to leave entirely, although I realize that I'm allowed to remain here only at Bob's discretion. But I do plan to scale way back on my participation.<BR/><BR/>You aren't the first to suggest that my ideas are not only false but also "dangerous." When I see this, I can't help but think that people may misunderstand my ideas, even though they may think they understand them, and see dangers lurking in them that don't exist. Or maybe they do exist, and I just don't see them. What dangers do you see in my ideas?<BR/><BR/>Do I sound pretentious at times? I must candidly tell you that I have the same impression of many posters here, and I suppose there are times when I unconsciously or even consciously mimick the pretentiousness or, at least, smug dogmatism I see or think I see in others. But one of my goals is to stop doing this and not be reluctant to admit it when I don't feel certain or even all that confident in what I express, even if that is taken, rightly or wrongly, as a sign of weakness in my character or in my opinions.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Stu, for engaging me in these last few posts in something much more closely approximating the dialogue I seek than the contentiousness I wish to put behind us, even if that deprives you of a prime outlet for your workplace aggressions. :-) <BR/><BR/>--SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158960017658111202006-09-22T14:20:00.000-07:002006-09-22T14:20:00.000-07:00Steve,I feel no contempt or disregard for you. I ...Steve,<BR/><BR/>I feel no contempt or disregard for you. I just think you're wrong, plain and simple. <BR/><BR/>And the problem isn't that we don't understand one another. I clearly understand everything you've said. We just disagree. <BR/><BR/>Maps are for people who don't know where they are, don't no where they are going, or don't know how to get there.<BR/><BR/>As I am fairly certain about where I am, where I'm going and how to get there, I'm going to lay off the maps for a while.<BR/><BR/>It's too bad that you'll be leaving us. You've been such a great outlet for the aggression that builds within me while I'm at the office.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, none of this is personal as you seem to have implied in your last comment. I have nothing against you, Steve. I just think your ideas are false and dangerous. And you can be extemely pretentious at times, which I don't like either. Good luck to you too, Steve.<BR/><BR/>-StuAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158958891520948132006-09-22T14:01:00.000-07:002006-09-22T14:01:00.000-07:00Stu, I plan to participate far less here and onlin...Stu, I plan to participate far less here and online in general than I have these past few days. In fact, I thought my last comment would be my final one for today. But you've said some things I'd like to address so that there may be a glimmering of understanding between us that doesn't seem to exist at present. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why I care whether we do or don't understand one another, or why I would much prefer that we hold one another in positive regard and respect rather than in disregard if not contempt, but I do. I wish I could communicate better with all of you so that our discussions, such as they are, here would fare better than they have. <BR/><BR/>At this point, I'm thinking of how Bob accused me yesterday of alternating between belligerent "bully" and "pathetic victim," and he would probably be inclined to accuse me of the latter in opening myself to you like this. But I must take that chance and say that I'm very disappointed and sorry that my efforts here have met with the response they have, and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that I've contributed to the problem, just as I will also say that I believe that others have jumped to hasty, unfavorable conclusions about my motives, opinons, and basic nature and been very insulting in their expressions thereof. Having said all that, let me get to some of your points.<BR/><BR/>"Now you're just baiting me."<BR/><BR/>That was not my intention. I took your previous words about Wilber's alleged falsehoods involving his core ideas, his alleged lies and "pseudo-truths," and his "flatland reductionism" to mean that you thought his entire map was thoroughly flawed--i.e., "bad." Thank you for clarifying that you didn't mean this.<BR/><BR/>"But I'm not about to unconditionally accept every aspect of his theories like you do."<BR/><BR/>I don't believe that I "unconditionally" accept any of them, and there are some that I'm hard-pressed to accept at all. Contrary to the impression you may have, I do not see Wilber as the infallible oracle of our time. But I am highly impressed with his "map" or "integral operating system." <BR/><BR/>"I don't need Bob to make me a map, or tell me what to believe."<BR/><BR/>Good, Stu.<BR/><BR/>"Bob calls it likes he sees it. When he recognizes Truth, he puts it out there for everyone."<BR/><BR/>I agree that he "puts out" what he believes to be truth. I would add that he does it with breathtaking eloquence. I come here to revel in that eloquence, to steep myself as much as possible in a worldview that seems to be very different from my own so that my own can expand and become clearer, and to be part of a community of intelligent, articulate seekers of truth. <BR/><BR/>I guess I've failed miserably to fulfill that third objective. I wish it were possible to start here with a clean slate and be taken for what I say and for how I say it from this point on. But, perhaps, that is asking too much.<BR/><BR/>"I've given up on maps altogether. I don't need them any more."<BR/><BR/>I don't question the fact that you believe this, Stu, but I do respectfully question whether it's possible to give up "maps" altogether, or whether it would be desirable to do so even if we could. It seems to me that we all have some kind of concpetual "map" or representation of reality that we use to guide us through life, and I'm looking to find or draw the best one I can.<BR/><BR/>I sincerely appreciate your candid comments about your grandfather, Gagdad, Ken Wilber, and what you're trying to do with your life. I really do wish you the very best with your journey, with or without a map. <BR/><BR/>--SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158958211136784342006-09-22T13:50:00.000-07:002006-09-22T13:50:00.000-07:00It’s amusing to see some of the more sensitive “qu...It’s amusing to see some of the more sensitive “quantum cosmologists” get rather twitchy as they begin to realize that their noxious Newtonian attachments have nothing to offer when Consciousness itself backs them against a wall, strips them naked, and violates their long-held dearest beliefs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158956469404944062006-09-22T13:21:00.000-07:002006-09-22T13:21:00.000-07:00Nags, you said:"It seems to me that the two go han...Nags, you said:<BR/><BR/>"It seems to me that the two go hand in hand. Models are maps that can help with exploring the territory without wasting too much of one's time or becoming hopelessly lost. The trick is to find a good map, and I still don't understand why you call Wilber's a bad one. It also seems to me that you're still looking for a map and that you may think you've found one in Gagdad's writings. If so, you've just substituted one map for another as your guide."<BR/><BR/>Now you're just baiting me. <BR/><BR/>I've never called Wilber's a bad map, just an incomplete and disingenuous one. Ken has clearly had a significant influence on my thinking. He articulates a lot of brilliant ideas that have helped clarify my own beliefs. <BR/><BR/>But I'm not about to unconditionally accept every aspect of his theories like you do. <BR/><BR/>My grandfather passed away recently. He was the no-nonsense, no-frills, tell-it-like-it-is kind of man that has become so rare these days. <BR/><BR/>I used to think he was a coarse man.<BR/><BR/>But then I realized that there are people who make maps of the Truth and people who live the Truth. <BR/><BR/>My grandfather was the latter. He was Truth. Everything about him screamed Truth. Whatever his sins, and he had plenty, he never engaged in deception of any kind.<BR/><BR/>And that's the same reason why I like Bob. <BR/><BR/>I don't need Bob to make me a map, or tell me what to believe.<BR/><BR/>Bob calls it likes he sees it. When he recognizes Truth, he puts it out there for everyone. <BR/><BR/>I haven't turned in one map for another, as you suggest. I've given up on maps altogether. I don't need them any more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158955379202520522006-09-22T13:02:00.000-07:002006-09-22T13:02:00.000-07:00HWSNBN,The idea that one is merely substituting ma...HWSNBN,<BR/>The idea that one is merely substituting maps stems from your heretical belief that relative Realities are contructs of merely human origin. It is possible for them to be of human origin, but there are also maps of Divine origin, for which there is no substitute.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158955140714750022006-09-22T12:59:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:59:00.000-07:00Van,I agree with you on groups of scientists. My ...Van,<BR/>I agree with you on groups of scientists. My fun has been with one or two and some microbrew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954992695724142006-09-22T12:56:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:56:00.000-07:00"I'm ready for direct experience of Truth and I kn..."I'm ready for direct experience of Truth and I know it when I see it. No more watered down maps and self-righteous wannabe gurus for me."<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that the two go hand in hand. Models are maps that can help with exploring the territory without wasting too much of one's time or becoming hopelessly lost. The trick is to find a good map, and I still don't understand why you call Wilber's a bad one. It also seems to me that you're still looking for a map and that you may think you've found one in Gagdad's writings. If so, you've just substituted one map for another as your guide.<BR/><BR/>I hope it guides you well.<BR/><BR/>All the best to you, Stu, and to all of you.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/>SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954782861906492006-09-22T12:53:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:53:00.000-07:00Joesph,I read something recently that anorexic / d...Joesph,<BR/><BR/>I read something recently that anorexic / dangerously thin models were banned in Spain and maybe somewhere else too. I'm sure you could google the story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954728043214272006-09-22T12:52:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:52:00.000-07:00Joseph said..."get engaged in an end times discuss...Joseph said..."get engaged in an end times discussion"<BR/>, comparisons of Second Timothy and Hesiod are also good for some sport as well - but again, it's usually a simple step to turn the conversation to the ideas being dealt with and become involved in a very interesting conversation.<BR/><BR/>To discuss ethics and morals with the Scienteffete however - first off, you need to be one on one with them to have such a discussion - if in a group, the group view will be stridently asserted.<BR/><BR/>Second, as with HWSNBN, the overall context will tend to be shrugged off, and they will quickly seek to focus in on what the meaning of "is" is.<BR/><BR/>Joseph:"You would think a person like that would have better looking sex partners. "<BR/>LOL! - especially since you'd think he'd be very aware of how their appearance might reflect upon his.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954486840104702006-09-22T12:48:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:48:00.000-07:00You know, I hate to be put in the position of actu...You know, I hate to be put in the position of actually defending Ken W., but hey . . .the guy has obviously got a "categorizing" mind plus a little gnosis, so he succumbed to the temptation of drawing up some higher consciousness maps.<BR/><BR/>The trouble, as I see it, is that not only are all "maps" fallible, but that his maps in particular are full of new agey jargon that tickles the fancy of people like Clinton and Gore (and no doubt Hillary). It makes them feel that they're part of the cutting edge spiritual vanguard, whereas the truth is they don't know their blanks from a hole in the ground.<BR/><BR/>Now anybody with an ounce of gnosis is going to see some spiritual truth in what KW has to say, but this is true of Bible readers also - those with gnosis are going to find themselves resonating with Biblical truths, others are going to run with their misinterpretations. It's all really an after-the-gnosis-fact proposition. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, to date I haven't seen KW issue any asinine, dangerous bromides/platitudes on the scale of Deepok Chopra's. Then again, I don't track KW's comings and goings with any great precision.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954342982181572006-09-22T12:45:00.002-07:002006-09-22T12:45:00.002-07:00"You would know about Clinton if you read what he ..."You would know about Clinton if you read what he says under oath. "It depends on what the meaning of is is"."<BR/><BR/>Once again, I asked what he said on Larry King that was a lie. I guess nobody has an answer. One, supposedly, could see him lying at every turn, and everything he says is a lie, but no one can give examples of what lies he told during his entire appearance on that program.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954336223790892006-09-22T12:45:00.001-07:002006-09-22T12:45:00.001-07:00No, I can't. And I'm not about to dig through tho...No, I can't. And I'm not about to dig through thousands of pages of material so I can.<BR/><BR/>I think I've made my position as clear as possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954336211347952006-09-22T12:45:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:45:00.000-07:00Stu, What do you mean they banned models in Spain...Stu, <BR/>What do you mean they banned models in Spain--I need to follow the breaking news more? When I was in Spain three years ago, I watched the Miss Spain contest (I pray they've not banned that) on TV. It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen, but also, a vision of some amazing feminine beauty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954115406545972006-09-22T12:41:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:41:00.000-07:00"He reduces everything to "the Ken Wilber model." ..."He reduces everything to "the Ken Wilber model." If it doesn't fit in his model, it can't be true."<BR/><BR/>Can you cite examples of things that are true that he calls untrue because they don't "fit in his model"?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02549770321948541384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158954051840732852006-09-22T12:40:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:40:00.000-07:00And frankly Nags, I'm sick of models (except the v...And frankly Nags, I'm sick of models (except the very thin ones that were banned in Spain). I'm sick of being pointed in the right direction. I'm sick of arguing and debating and trying to figure things out. <BR/><BR/>I'm ready for direct experience of Truth and I know it when I see it. No more watered down maps and self-righteous wannabe gurus for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158953946080295872006-09-22T12:39:00.000-07:002006-09-22T12:39:00.000-07:00You would know about Clinton if you read what he s...You would know about Clinton if you read what he says under oath. "It depends on what the meaning of is is". I am not saying he wasn't smart--one hell of a politician. As my father would say, "that SOB gets up every morning and figures out a new way to get in the pockets of the small businessman."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158953627240736612006-09-22T12:33:00.002-07:002006-09-22T12:33:00.002-07:00Oh and Nags,The flatland reductionism that Ken rai...Oh and Nags,<BR/><BR/>The flatland reductionism that Ken rails against is the materialist / positivist scientific reductionism we see in academia.<BR/><BR/>Ironically, Ken does the same thing, just a level removed. He reduces everything to "the Ken Wilber model." If it doesn't fit in his model, it can't be true. Sounds a lite like scientific materialism, doesn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1158953610275778912006-09-22T12:33:00.001-07:002006-09-22T12:33:00.001-07:00For me, its actually more fun to converse with a s...For me, its actually more fun to converse with a scientist, which I have on a few occasions. More fun, because I like to pin them down on their real views and then finally ask why they give a rat's ass about how many soldiers are dead here or there if in the end, there is no meaning to anything. Why not loot at will? Crickets usually.<BR/><BR/>Bible thumpers, of which I used to be one, can be fun if you can get engaged in an end times discussion.<BR/><BR/>The Amish are the best. I used to work construction with a community (they have to have an English driver). So, why don't you get to use covered wagons again? Endless fun. <BR/><BR/>I can see now that one of my problems is that I like to have fun with people more than substantive discussions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com