tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post9182360752999744790..comments2024-03-29T06:03:45.545-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: On Developing 20/∞ VisionGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-12288455354894634942009-02-10T20:38:00.000-08:002009-02-10T20:38:00.000-08:00Also to note, since I've noticed I slide into 'Ort...Also to note, since I've noticed I slide into 'Ortho-lexicon' 'The World' i.e. the Passions (the sinful passions, in this case...) is short for 'the system of this world', or in B'ob "The conspiracy to rob us of all of our slack." So 'the world' in that case is the same 'world' in 'the prince of this world' - it is the same Greek word (as far as I know) but the context is different. So when we say "God so loved the world..." (John 3:16) we most definitely don't mean 'God so loved the sinful passions...' But rather, the Cosmos.<BR/><BR/>River adjourned!<BR/><BR/>wv: tersc - it meant, 'terse? tsk.'Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-21259222724671681502009-02-10T20:33:00.000-08:002009-02-10T20:33:00.000-08:00Also, the temptation by Satan reveals that perfect...Also, the temptation by Satan reveals that perfect man is 'dead to the world', that is, the passions as John cuts them into three: "The pride of life, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes." <BR/><BR/>It is in the tomb in which we find the path to life. Duality is broken in three.Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-26005199849899672292009-02-10T20:22:00.000-08:002009-02-10T20:22:00.000-08:00The Orthodox use the term 'passions' to mean the w...The Orthodox use the term 'passions' to mean the ways in which we are open to the possibility of sin. They include both blameless and sinful ones; hunger being blameless and things like lustfulness being sinful. The point being that a passion represents not a sin, but a suffering (that's what the word means literally from the Greek) which may lead us to sin, or may not. As far as I know the Lord was free of sinful passions, though he willingly took on the blameless passions since they are essential to our existential condition. That is, what it is to be human. Like anyone, the opportunities to sin were everywhere, but he took none of them, we could say because he lacked the sinful passions, which is just to say he was a perfect man. If you were such, the 'temptations' of various things, gluttony, wrath, lust, and so forth, would not seem appealing. You would stop eating when you weren't hungry, you'd express anger in moderation, you would only desire that which was proper to have, etc.<BR/><BR/>But there's no real good way to get around the fact that as God, he did not have to take on any of it, he was not bound or required to except that if he did not then he would not have been truly man. So what often looks like necessity to us (or is necessity to us) is a choice for God. <BR/><BR/>I suppose, though, with all of that preparation, he would not have gone and hosed the deal by cheating. Then again, perhaps that very act might have destroyed the man, and thus God would not consider it. <BR/><BR/>So take note, that the notion of the blameless passions, helps us understand the pain and agony of the garden, while knowing that he never desired evil for even a moment. It is said that there is a passion associated with the body's natural desire for living, and that his agony is an expression of the very truth of his human life; that his humanity would not simply extinguish itself without resistance. <BR/><BR/>This agony of Gethsemane, I would think, is that same force which makes things 'easy' when life and death are on the line. It is the vital force itself, maybe!Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7654667909928987202009-02-10T19:29:00.000-08:002009-02-10T19:29:00.000-08:00“It has long puzzled me that the part of his life ...“It has long puzzled me that the part of his life that seems most relevant to our daily life is not documented at all, but left to the Spirit to reveal to each as needed. There is probably a reason for this.”<BR/><BR/>I wonder about that too, Magnus. So far all I’ve come up with is that if we knew every single step he took, if we knew him so literally, we might lose our identities by following each one so closely.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-6192802764780083542009-02-10T19:23:00.000-08:002009-02-10T19:23:00.000-08:00Zoltan,Thank you. I don’t doubt that chronology is...Zoltan,<BR/>Thank you. I don’t doubt that chronology is important to seeing an evolution of awareness. But do you think it is possible that that is not all that it means? as certainly the eyes you look out of at any given time reflects your awareness. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest He was confused, because I never thought that, but that by exchanging places (eyes) so to speak, was asking us to do the same. The existence of His humanness, to show it, allows us to elevate that better part of ourselves.<BR/><BR/>What got me thinking like this the first time was the section of John 3.3-3.18 where Jesus himself refers to the Son of Man and Son of God in such a short span of words and time.<BR/><BR/>Either way, thank you. The evolution of His awareness into a final third thing completing that trinity/re-unity is both a beautiful dimension added to, and perspective on, the hologram. I’m certain that we were meant to take notice of it, but not only notice.<BR/><BR/>I’m only beginning my own private studies, with all of your help, and the more I do the more I find how large the mystery is. Ordinarily, with me anyway, this would be discouraging. Yet, as River put it, what originally seemed absurd or problematic simply grows more solid before our eyes.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-84597950718386980042009-02-10T17:12:00.000-08:002009-02-10T17:12:00.000-08:00What I miss is actually Jesus' "Smallville", to us...What I miss is actually Jesus' "Smallville", to use a contemporary analogy. We know that at the age of 12, Jesus was remarkable, but still considered just a gifted youngster. When he died, supposedly in his early 30es, he had absorbed the entire fullness of God into his human life, and in such a way that others could follow. (Although to the best of my knowledge, no one has followed him all the way.)<BR/><BR/>It has long puzzled me that the part of his life that seems most relevant to our daily life is not documented at all, but left to the Spirit to reveal to each as needed. There is probably a reason for this.Magnus Itlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18445902788427523461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-91087615347421692272009-02-10T16:33:00.000-08:002009-02-10T16:33:00.000-08:00And when either description [Son or Man or Son of ...<I>And when either description [Son or Man or Son of God] is chosen that that is which set of eyes He is using. Is this true?</I><BR/><BR/><I>…and if so, it may be the Son of Man who is approached with the offer/tempted, and then the Son of God who rejects those offers. Isn’t the point to show us how we are both Sons of Man and Sons of God too?</I><BR/><BR/>The two appellations, Son of Man and Son of God, belong to a set of three such, the third being, I am One with the Father (God).<BR/><BR/>They represent statements made by Jesus over a long span of years and reflect his developing self-awareness as Messiah.<BR/><BR/>The Bible conflates them without reference to their sequential appearance and the meaning of that sequence.<BR/><BR/>Son of Man and Son of God were familiar appellations in different contexts, Essene/Palestinian eschatological discourse for the former and Greco-Roman society for the latter.<BR/><BR/>There was nothing unusual about these terms in the First Century Mediterranean universe.<BR/><BR/>Their significance in this case is their reflection of an individual's self-awareness. They mean very different things in this context. And the significance of the first two is not grasped adequately until the third, the consummator, is in place.<BR/><BR/>This is a common phenomenon in the development of any process towards its goal or telos. It is only really seen from or in its fulfillment.<BR/><BR/>The developed nature of the Messianic self-awareness of Jesus of Nazareth was devilishly extruded earlier in this discussion and noted by Van, who inquired after its congruence with the accepted structure of theological certainty, i.e., orthodox theology.<BR/><BR/>Orthodox, by the way, means straight learning and living. Queers rightly sneer at "straight" because they are cross-wired, crooked.<BR/><BR/>To answer Van's question, it does and it does not, which is an unsatisfying answer, I realize, but the only one accurately to be offered. Regrettably, I am out of time to expatiate on why this is so beyond this cryptic indication: the orthodox tradition is wider than the orthodox take it and narrower than the heterodox take it.<BR/><BR/>Early in his career Jesus said he is the Son of Man. He meant he felt separate from God although attached to Him.<BR/><BR/>Later, Jesus said he is the Son of God. He meant he felt related to God, a member of His close family, even of his special creation. At about this time Jesus realized he is the Messiah promised by God through the Prophets.<BR/><BR/>This declaration precipitated his condemnation for blasphemy.<BR/><BR/>These first two declarations are conflated in the Synoptic Gospels, whose content and structure are driven by evangelical considerations among general Palestinian and Greco-Roman audiences.<BR/><BR/>Near the end of his career, Jesus said that he and his Father are One. He meant that there is no separation or essential distinction between God and Himself.<BR/><BR/>This declaration is reflected in the content and structure of the Fourth Gospel, which aims to develop evangelism in all territories and among all orbits of the Hellenistic world and beyond.<BR/><BR/>The Fourth Gospel reflects the contact with mysticism of the East, specifically India and Tibet, which distinguished Hellenistic from classical Greek philosophy.<BR/><BR/>Hellenistic philosophy is essentially religious and mystical, related more to Pythagoras and Parmenides than to Plato or Aristotle.<BR/><BR/>In any case, the three declarations of Jesus, which occurred sequentially as reflections of his self-understanding, indicate that his Messianic awareness did not drop either with, on or through him from Heaven in whole cloth at his nativity.<BR/><BR/>The previous devilish extrusion asserts that this development reveals confusion on Jesus' part, akin to that the extruder assigns to all and sundry.<BR/><BR/>This assertion is a misreading and misrepresentation of the facts, probably including an absence of awareness of some of them.<BR/><BR/>Development is not confusion.<BR/><BR/>The natures and relationship of the "two natures" of the Christ is the subject of the formulations taken by the Church at the Council of Chalcedon which, like the formulations taken by the Church at the Council of Nicaea has not been superceded, nor will be.<BR/><BR/>The solution as Ricky formulates it is Nestorian and was rejected at Chalcedon, along with the Alexandrine solution.<BR/><BR/>The problem was of immediate existential moment and especially deeply felt in the Eastern portions of the Roman Empire, especially Egypt and Alexandria: the old "scandal" of having to believe in a God who gets killed.<BR/><BR/>It does not make sense. Either he is God or he isn't. Who wants to be tagged with following a loser? Who can blame them for not wanting to?<BR/><BR/>Alexandrian opinion, therefore, followed ever since by the Greek Church, tended to swallow the humanity of Jesus as the Christ in his divinity.<BR/><BR/>(Cf. the justly famous iconography employed by the Greek Church.)<BR/><BR/>The Latin Church would have none of this. Pope Leo I promulgated a famous letter which essentially decided the issue at Chalcedon, agreed by both Greek and Latin Churches, though with permanent discomfort by the former.<BR/><BR/>Leo said that the properties of each nature and substance [important technical terms derived from Hellenistic philosophy] were preserved entire and came together to form one person. Humility was assumed by majesty, weakness by strength and mortality by eternity.<BR/><BR/>There is one true God in the entire and perfect nature of one true man, Jesus of Nazareth.<BR/><BR/>Luther had in mind the reality expressed by this formulation when he said that Christians should be "little Christs."<BR/><BR/>The whole church therefore rejected both the separation of natures asserted by the extreme Antiochenes, represented by Nestorius, and the absorption of one nature by the other asserted by the extreme Alexandrians, represented by Apollinarius.<BR/><BR/>Like Nicaea, which dealt with the relation of God the Father and the Christ, Chalcedon, which dealt with the relation of the natures of the Christ, had and continues to engender problems.<BR/><BR/>It will ever be so because literalists and self-important polemicists refuse to consider (1) the deeply-felt existential concerns treated in discussions of these two sets of relationships, God with man and man with himself and his world, and (2) the salient shortcomings of any expression of essential depth in existential stirrings. <BR/><BR/>Hellenistic society, Greco-Roman culture and Christian civilization are deeply committed to examining and resolving the existential dilemmas which abound by his patrimony in the heart of man.<BR/><BR/>Now, I have over-stayed my welcome and wish to express my deepest thanks for your kindness in allowing me to participate in these proceedings. It has given me great joy to do so and I have the greatest affection for the well-being of each and all of you ... of us. Farewell.David R. Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16416692639208634879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73612618990484480012009-02-10T16:16:00.000-08:002009-02-10T16:16:00.000-08:00From yesterday's post:"Indeed, the need for logica...From yesterday's post:<BR/><BR/>"Indeed, the need for logical satisfaction "increases in proportion to ignorance, not in proportion to knowledge."<BR/><BR/>That has been my experience. Very insightful. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-64935350234500148302009-02-10T15:42:00.000-08:002009-02-10T15:42:00.000-08:00‘course, Van!Same here, Julie.Good one, Mushroom.‘...‘course, Van!<BR/>Same here, Julie.<BR/>Good one, Mushroom.<BR/>‘night John boy.<BR/><BR/>(couldn't resist :-)Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-4649193703042647562009-02-10T14:58:00.000-08:002009-02-10T14:58:00.000-08:00No, Van, we're not arguing, just thinking.Greek/En...No, Van, we're not arguing, just thinking.<BR/><BR/>Greek/English reminds me of the old church joke where they ask someone why he still uses the King James Version and he replies, "If it was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me."mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-64643272141349228382009-02-10T14:45:00.000-08:002009-02-10T14:45:00.000-08:00Nomo said "Not profound, but perhaps worth noting ...Nomo said "Not profound, but perhaps worth noting is that the Greek for "temptation" and "tempted" can also mean "testing" and "tested"."<BR/><BR/>Ah... that is actually a profoundly different approach and perspective on the issue... sure wish those pesky Greeks had spoken English like they did in the rest of the bible.<BR/><BR/>ahem.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-46451955798584553062009-02-10T14:42:00.000-08:002009-02-10T14:42:00.000-08:00NoMo, and everyone actually, thanks.I love you guy...NoMo, and everyone actually, thanks.<BR/>I love you guys, and this place :)juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3575206279447189242009-02-10T14:34:00.000-08:002009-02-10T14:34:00.000-08:00Julie said "In part, what I'm grinding away at is ...Julie said "In part, what I'm grinding away at is a connection between thought and deed, the conflicting pressures between want and doing what is right - especially when that is also (mercifully) what you want."<BR/><BR/>And there is where we as people, have to deal with, as Ricky put it " the Son of Man who is approached with the offer/tempted, and then the Son of God who rejects those offers"... what is the road that is open to us to to bridge that gap, to where we are able to detect whether the 'bread' is Bread, and not stone, and how do we find it? After all, the bible does say that Jesus did turn water into wine... what is the difference between that, done in comfortable company, and turning stone into bread while starving in the desert? The answer isn't up myopically close to the particular instances themselves. The answer exists in the summit of Principles, whose summit is only approached by one who approaches the world, the particulars, from the context of first being born from above.<BR/><BR/>Mushroom said "He told Peter, I can right now call legions of angels down. That's not temptation? Luke's account says He was sweating blood to get to the point of total obedience and submission to the Father's will. <BR/>Temptation will rise to our level, but to be tempted is no sin."<BR/><BR/>Ooh... good points Mushroom, though again, I think the difference lies in the perspective from which the issue is raised and considered, from below "prove to ME you're a bigshot, get rid of that hunger in your belly... nOW! Prove it!" all disconnected urges and perceptions, or "I could choose to call legions of angels down and continue on down a different path, or come to grips with this issue here and now... both might be legitimate choices, but one, which does involve pain and agony, will accomplish more" and again, only the path directed from above, centered around principle instead of particular, is seen to be the one that will face the issue and accomplish it.<BR/><BR/>(Hey, you guys know I’m not "arguing" with you right? Just loudly considering and discussing the issue... and loving it... thanks!)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-61979388529995599182009-02-10T14:02:00.000-08:002009-02-10T14:02:00.000-08:00Great discussion, all! I would just hearken back t...Great discussion, all! I would just hearken back to what Sal said at 9:45 and maybe add a little bit. Not profound, but perhaps worth noting is that the Greek for "temptation" and "tempted" can also mean "testing" and "tested".<BR/><BR/>Referring to Jesus, someone wrote, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." (Heb 4:15) <BR/><BR/>And, in his first letter to the Corinthians (10:13), Paul wrote, “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”<BR/><BR/>Although tempted / tested no less than any of us, it so happened that Jesus the man ALWAYS endured. No one else ever has.<BR/><BR/>Finally, the Hebrews writer followed with,<BR/><BR/>"Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace,<BR/>so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."<BR/><BR/>'Nuf said.NoMohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01100042056270224683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24855164811550904952009-02-10T13:44:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:44:00.000-08:00That should be "what do you mean if". wv: spartal...That should be "what do you <I>mean</I> if". <BR/><BR/>wv: <I>spartals</I> -- 300?mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89986875187629171912009-02-10T13:40:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:40:00.000-08:00I think there is an old debate within the Church a...I think there is an old debate within the Church as to whether or not Jesus could have sinned. Some have always said that His temptations were more or less meaningless. I agree with Magnus and others that Jesus was probably fairly immune to the ordinary sins of the flesh.<BR/><BR/>Here's the thing, though, the temptation to turn stones into bread is not so much about the bread as about "show me you're the Son of God." I have never been tempted to perform a miracle because I can't do it -- at least, as far as I know. Have you ever been tempted to jump off a building to show everybody you're special? <BR/><BR/>Jesus could do the miraculous so He was tempted to do it out of order and to serve His own ends. Don't tell me it wasn't a temptation to put the devil in his place. "What do you 'if I'm the Son of God', hellboy?" <BR/><BR/>So, too, in Gethsemane, Jesus isn't tempted to do wrong as much as He just doesn't have to do this. He doesn't have to endure the beating and the humiliation. He can just walk away. He told Peter, I can right now call legions of angels down. That's not temptation? Luke's account says He was sweating blood to get to the point of total obedience and submission to the Father's will. <BR/><BR/>Temptation will rise to our level, but to be tempted is no sin.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-8795231972786857882009-02-10T13:30:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:30:00.000-08:00Van said"What is a lie, if grasped as such, is of ...Van said<BR/>"What is a lie, if grasped as such, is of no interest for someone who desires the Truth. It. Just. Isn't. A. Value. To. Be. Sought."<BR/><BR/>Indeed.<BR/><BR/>"but you just can't seriously yearn for a tall frosty mug of cyanide.<BR/><BR/>You just can't."<BR/><BR/>And Ricky,<BR/>"Isn’t the point to show us how we are both Sons of Man and Sons of God too?"<BR/><BR/>I think you've hit a little closer to where I was wandering this morning: trying, in my own small and human (and therefore not even remotely accurate) way to fit my own wonky template against His example. In part, what I'm grinding away at is a connection between thought and deed, the conflicting pressures between <I>want</I> and <I>doing what is right</I> - especially when that is also (mercifully) what you want.<BR/><BR/>Switching back into merely human terms, it's not the cyanide that's the danger, not when it's recognized. (Or as Magnus just put it: "Some temptations cease to be temptations. But new and more subtle ones arise.") Sometimes, it's the end we can only barely perceive, far in the distance, a shimmering mirage of possibility that is so <I>tantalizing</I>, the spoiled inner child doesn't want to wait for things to come to True fruition in their time, but yearns for it <I>right now</I>, that impatience that glares at the orange pip, expecting a tree to spring up all at once, on demand, and laden with tasty fruit, and never mind that the only spot to grow said tree happens to be currently occupied by an entire spectacular forest which isn't to be uprooted. And of course, that's not <I>really</I> what one wants, but just try and get that little brat to shut up and grant some peace...<BR/><BR/>Which ultimately all leads back to practicing <I>Patience</I> and <I>Trust</I>.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of which, it seems I have some work to do, and a good bit of afternoon timelessness in which to do it.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-66398697126346835852009-02-10T13:19:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:19:00.000-08:00I think it would be pretty crazy to compare my tem...I think it would be pretty crazy to compare my temptations with those of the 30-year-old Jesus. I can see him being tempted like me - with the modifications that he did not have any bad habits but neither had he any personal experience of a bad conscience or the plain emptiness that comes from allowing sin to reign. But the thing is, I believe he had those temptations somewhere around puberty or so, before leaving them in the dust to deal with much deeper ones.<BR/><BR/>The same happens to those who follow him, albeit not at the same speed. Some temptations cease to be temptations. But new and more subtle ones arise.Magnus Itlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18445902788427523461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-21844672246023299002009-02-10T13:10:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:10:00.000-08:00…and if so, it may be the Son of Man who is approa...…and if so, it may be the Son of Man who is approached with the offer/tempted, and then the Son of God who rejects those offers. Isn’t the point to show us how we are both Sons of Man and Sons of God too?Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28526384689188936042009-02-10T13:02:00.000-08:002009-02-10T13:02:00.000-08:00I don’t see where we disagree then. Let me put it ...I don’t see where we disagree then. <BR/><BR/>Let me put it this way, man is tempted and Jesus needed to deal with that…or He would have been “all God and no man” and then what would be the point in him coming. As I understand it He was (is) all God and all Man.<BR/><BR/>Somewhat related, and this may be NT 101, but there seems to be significance to when Jesus is referred to as “The Son of God” and other times “The Son of Man.” And when either description is chosen that that is which set of eyes He is using. Is this true?Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71357934317253933212009-02-10T12:41:00.000-08:002009-02-10T12:41:00.000-08:00Ricky said "With that understanding, I say Jesus p...Ricky said "With that understanding, I say Jesus participated in at least 2 if not all three. "<BR/><BR/>Hmm... yes, #1, he was definitely presented with the offer. #2, the offer, the temptation was seen, and had to be considered at least to the point of understanding that this item "bread" was being urged on him, and he certainly would have been aware that "bread" would satisfy his hunger, but with the realization of the actual content of the offer, that "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread", would be to separate the form from the substance and make it null, and the understanding that <I>"...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."</I>, ends the process of consideration, the offer is recognized as being in fact a Null value, <I>there isn't even nothing there</I>, and the decision loop hits an 'exit sub' well before any invested consideration is undertaken, the offer is rejected as being the worthless thing it is.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-82407373343593004032009-02-10T12:39:00.000-08:002009-02-10T12:39:00.000-08:00Van, concur again, you are describing the conditio...Van, concur again, you are describing the condition of faith. Yields an immense delight and content. A rare condition these days. Precious and very powerful.<BR/><BR/>The Gesthsemane story has some actual historiography in it, as well as myth and much legend. But the point of the story is as you describe it.<BR/><BR/>Thiering I believe it is who has some of the historiography -- working from memory on that, possibly faulty.<BR/><BR/>The central intent is evangelical, to describe the Christ in life-situations and comfort, strengthen, thereby -- that is, strengthen those who have not heard the Gospel or seen its effects or disparage it from what can never amount to more than cussedness.David R. Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16416692639208634879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71893771312293708392009-02-10T12:28:00.000-08:002009-02-10T12:28:00.000-08:00I suppose all should keep in mind that I am not te...I suppose all should keep in mind that I am not technically a Christian, but I do take the bible giving body to Truth, of describing and revealing the living Truth which we are able to perceive and receive, the Truth as it IS.<BR/><BR/>Again, in Gethesmane,<BR/>"<I>35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. <BR/>36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. <BR/></I>"<BR/><BR/>he is not seeking to alter reality, to seek a shortcut, a remaking of reality in the image of his desires, which is ultimately what the devil offers, but only if it is possible in truth that it could be otherwise, he yearns that it could be... but in no way actually succumbs to wishing to remake what is, "nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt".<BR/><BR/>I may be going in the face of established theology (Ooh... was that a thrill I felt? Heh... go figure), but as Zoltan said, <BR/>"Its point is existential: His unity with God is not ruptured by circumstances. He remains whole, retains health, in God, no matter the extremity, whether of delight or of despair."<BR/>, and I agree. What is a lie, if grasped as such, is of no interest for someone who desires the Truth. It. Just. Isn't. A. Value. To. Be. Sought.<BR/><BR/>River said "It is said that the Devil, who comes to tempt him, is actually uncertain of him truly being God. He comes to test (tempt) him - since the signs were hidden from him as to whether this man was indeed the Messiah. It also appears that he does not comprehend what him being Man and God really means. But then again, we still haven't completely figured it out."<BR/><BR/>That's an interesting take, and for my two cents, it seems to me that it is the devil who is undergoing the pains of temptation, as always, not Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Julie said "A good meditation, it helps to distract me from the usual mental grinding. Well, a little, anyway."<BR/><BR/>Yes, and especially today, in this economy, and beginning month two of unemployment, and people telling me "you've GOT to hope for the bailout"... they are astonished when I say "No"... it isn't a value. I get looks that say "You're a fool", or that say "Wow, didn't think you could hold to your principles...", but is it really a feat of strength to refuse to drink poison? (and please, no, I'm not making any divine comparisons or delusions for myself here, just applying the lesson). My recruiter seemed annoyed because I didn't chime in with hoping with him, that we'd see some bailout programs in the tech sector... I could see he was annoyed that I didn't give an agonized "<I>Yeah... I wish... but...maybe it'd be..."</I> ... but... come on.<BR/><BR/>What. Is. False. Just. Isn't. Real. Only bad will come of corrupting what is true, and if you see that, you can't <I>really be tempted</I> by it. The bad thing that's happening hurts, it's painful, you see and feel that... but you just can't seriously yearn for a tall frosty mug of cyanide.<BR/><BR/>You just can't.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-51508043977990725632009-02-10T12:24:00.000-08:002009-02-10T12:24:00.000-08:00I haven’t looked up the word temptation, but it se...I haven’t looked up the word temptation, but it seems to me they would include:<BR/><BR/>1. The act of attempting to seduce someone (the offering)<BR/>2. The consideration of whether to accept the offer<BR/>3. The accept or deny of the offer<BR/><BR/>With that understanding, I say Jesus participated in at least 2 if not all three.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-5355212699609799492009-02-10T12:03:00.000-08:002009-02-10T12:03:00.000-08:00"Again, I see the agony of anticipation, then reso..."Again, I see the agony of anticipation, then resolve... but not temptation."<BR/><BR/>Indeed. And so, the grinding continues...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.com