tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post7163397236882717120..comments2024-03-28T12:10:26.197-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: I Am. Not Myself. But Maybe Somedeity...Gagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37014549788581006062013-06-18T06:49:34.290-07:002013-06-18T06:49:34.290-07:00"Conversely, Vedanta maintains that creation ..."Conversely, Vedanta maintains that creation has no beginning, and that this particular cosmos is just one in an endless series of emanations."<br /><br />Well, yeah. Kinda. Except that there are other where-whens. I mean, if you change e and pi, among other things, you can get another where when. It just has to work.<br /><br />"Likewise, with J, creation involves divine choice, whereas with V it is somewhat "automatic," in the sense that Brahman cannot not create, because this would violate its own nature."<br /><br />Well, yeah, God chose to create. And apparently it's fun. Because he keeps doing it.<br /><br />I mean, I can do all kinds of things that violate my own nature.<br /><br />Like killing myself (I'm still trying to figure out why people have suicidal ideations, since I'm generally not mad at *me*, personally).<br /><br />So, is suicide in my nature?<br /><br />I just confused myself.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126071014909954387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-60659074875181725172013-06-17T22:12:22.797-07:002013-06-17T22:12:22.797-07:00Bob Said in the post: "Along these lines, Dav...Bob Said in the post: "Along these lines, Davie goes on to suggest that Judaism's "main concern" lies with "finding an answer to the question, Who? (who is this God revealed to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets?...)," whereas the central concern of Vedanta "is identity-with" the ultimate principle. In Judaism there can be no identity with God, just as in Vedanta our apparent separation is only a stubborn illusion."<br /><br />Now, I personally have a difficult time following some of these somewhat abstract and metaphysical discussions, at least enough to be able to express myself adequately in response. But the above quote hits upon something for me, and in that I can speak not abstractly, but from personal experience.<br /><br />I regularly practice Zen meditation, merely witnessing the non-dual nature of Being-ness in all of Its nonGLORY. And yet, sometimes, in that vast spaciousness which is most definitely loving in its immanence, a question arises within me: "HOW?! HOW CAN THIS BE?! THIS MIRACLE?! THIS MYSTERY?! HOW AND WHEN AND WAS THERE A BEGINNING?!"<br /><br />And then, oh so slowly, Understanding descends. Yes, there is an Other, a God, a Conscious and Truth-Giving Creator fully aware of my linguistic-energetic questioning. And He responds in kind, showing me the Miracle of my own self, my own person, my own ego, even, and sometimes brings raw insight into the structure of cosmic and meta-cosmic manifestation. And then comes the profound realization that as awe-filled as I am through awareness of the Presence of God's Being-ness, God is awed by ME. <br /><br />This is how I experience it: By having willed Creation into being, God let go of an aspect of Himself, his Plenitude, His radical and overflowing Fullness. This Involution, this descent into Time and Matter, manifested a Boundary between Himself and Himself, and in that offered each particular self the possibility of sharing in His own Self-Revelation. <br /><br />Each human Revelation is a gift to God. God delights in nothing anything more, I believe, than re-living the Miracle of His own Being-ness, his own Truth, his own Beauty and Goodness from the perspective of the finite. <br /><br />This relates to the above quote, I feel, and to what Bob has been discussing in the last few posts. I am That, and yet I am not That, and it is this very flow of Epiphanies (yes and no, hot and cold, Free and Full) which creates Unity itself. There needs to be a boundary, a differentiation, for the Miracle to be re-Discovered, re-Loved, re-Worded, re-Integrated.<br /><br />I always come back to Schuon's quote about the Sun, and its rays of Light. The rays are of the Sun, they feel like the Sun and are one with the Sun at all times, but they are not ACTUALLY the Sun....yes and no.Jason T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09406420731870676754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-57083243192306220862013-06-17T19:27:23.513-07:002013-06-17T19:27:23.513-07:00I do tend to think that most of Western Christendo...I do tend to think that most of Western Christendom is actually a dualistic perversion of orthodoxy (no offense to those in the West.) <br /><br />My conclusion after reading the fathers as much as I have (probably not nearly enough!) is that the principles of unity and multiplicity are the fundamental atomic laws of all existence, including invisible existence (ideas, angels, etc.) <br /><br />So you have a pair of principles, but these principles do not stand in contradiction to one another, but mutually reinforce one another. They seem to be hierarchical, in that it all starts with the One, but this beginning is outside all time and creation within the divinity itself. <br /><br />Thus to say that there is a hierarchy is to say yes, the many originates in the one, but neither then permits one to be primary and the other secondary; they are equals in their stability and permanence. <br /><br />This would (in my mind) explain why Godel's theory is correct, because these axiomatic systems are qualitatively singular: Science for instance even if has a thousand laws still reduces to the idea that all causes belong to the order of physics, forward in time, whether deterministic or non-deterministic.<br /><br />Without a second underlying principle that overlaps and reinforces the former set, producing its own manner of laws, you cannot have a complete grasp of reality.<br /><br />We are taught that the Trinity is a mystery and that we do not intuit the Threeness in Oneness from our experience, but that it is revealed to us. We can from there see the ramifications of the One in Three in all things.<br /><br />So those who try too hard to come up with new theories about God's nature, or additional doctrines if you will, from nature, are in error, or must do so with the caveat that they are performing some seriously funky mind jazz, and by goodness take it with levitas.<br /><br />Prayers By The Lake is perhaps one of the most profound theological texts ever written. But St. Nikolai is just riffing off of Maximus, Eckhart, John, Gregory(s) and others. Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-66982452378893595292013-06-17T18:41:16.189-07:002013-06-17T18:41:16.189-07:00Indeed, you've heard the old joke about the tw...Indeed, you've heard the old joke about the two lines of men waiting to get into heaven. One line is HENPECKED, the other is NOT HENPECKED. <br /><br />The Henpecked line wraps all the way around the New Jerusalem. There's one guy standing in the Not-Henpecked line. Finally some of the men can't stand it any longer and go over to the lone holdout. One of them says, "Why are you standing here? Come on over with us."<br /><br />The guy shakes his head, "My wife told me stand here."<br /><br />That will be me.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-70255734712062893122013-06-17T17:26:31.709-07:002013-06-17T17:26:31.709-07:00~A Tibetan story you may not recall: Marpa's s...~A Tibetan story you may not recall: Marpa's son Dode was killed in a riding mishap. His dad performed a transference of consciousness ritual and the son who had mastered the technique before his death-- his mind just before his body croaked, took life in a pigeon who performed ritual moves and answered simple questions with signs; and the bird flew toward India to take rebirth in an auspicious family---well Dode got lost and came back as the pigeon, and Marpa clairvoyantly saw his error in flight-path so told him what to look for...well Dode again flew to India and animated the corpse of a recently-deceased Indian kid, whose parents were delighted with the miracle of their son's rising off the pyre at the last minute as alive and a lot smarter than ever! [they did know that some amazing thing had happened because the kid became a sage in his own right...]gehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015936407999495181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65373438945465067592013-06-17T17:01:13.080-07:002013-06-17T17:01:13.080-07:00Probably Mrs. Shroom wearing them. Probably Mrs. Shroom wearing them. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-14272268072650203602013-06-17T16:02:43.126-07:002013-06-17T16:02:43.126-07:00Julie, I'm not sure if you should write that u...Julie, I'm not sure if you should write that up as a screenplay or delete it from the internet immediately. <br /><br />In any case, it's pretty cool. My dreams are like I can't find my pants.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7656185772024836042013-06-17T14:12:16.925-07:002013-06-17T14:12:16.925-07:00I don't know, but Schuon just said that Tibeta...I don't know, but Schuon just said that Tibetans believe that "a dog's tooth that is mistaken for a relic and becomes an object of sincere and ardent faith actually begins to shine."Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1602672408713777752013-06-17T14:09:57.015-07:002013-06-17T14:09:57.015-07:00Oh - one more detail: Part of the goal of the coun...Oh - one more detail: Part of the goal of the counterfeiting was to enrich the counterfeiter. However, there was also a goal of enriching those who came across the silver quarters and recognized that what they had was something more valuable than just a regular quarter. Eyes to see, and all that...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50788092423959613952013-06-17T14:00:02.935-07:002013-06-17T14:00:02.935-07:00Hm. All this either/or/both/and brings to mind an ...Hm. All this either/or/both/and brings to mind an interesting dream I had this weekend. Or rather, an interesting conundrum within a dream.<br /><br />So there's a counterfeiter, and he comes to you with a kit for making molds of quarters. Then he wants you to fill the molds with pure silver, as opposed to the copper/nickel of the original quarter. He then wants you to put the silver quarters into circulation, with a goal of having one marked by an official as invalid currency and then returned to him - in the process, becoming many, many times more valuable than the ordinary quarter it replaced.<br /><br />So there's a conundrum. On the one hand, you have an ordinary quarter, which has value not because of its actual makeup, but because it has the official backing of the state.<br /><br />Then, on the other hand, you have the chance to make a false version whose true worth is actually far greater - and which becomes even more valuable as a result of being invalidated by an agent of the state. <br /><br />You don't know the motives of the counterfeiter. What do you do? Or in this context, which is more valuable, or more "true"?<br /><br />I've been mulling over that one all weekend.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-87212055984216775642013-06-17T13:03:58.805-07:002013-06-17T13:03:58.805-07:00I can hear your thoughts from afar,
"Jeez, wh...I can hear your thoughts from afar,<br />"Jeez, what's with this guy. Do your own reading!"<br /><br />Fair enough.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04865413665629644313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73183503946950555102013-06-17T11:33:25.313-07:002013-06-17T11:33:25.313-07:00Only one way to find out, and I don't want to ...Only one way to find out, and I don't want to spoil it for you.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-57231903095532120072013-06-17T11:24:10.440-07:002013-06-17T11:24:10.440-07:00Understood.
Clearly, non-duality is not pantheism...Understood.<br /><br />Clearly, non-duality is not pantheism. <br /><br />But is panentheism, being neither monist nor dualist, to be understood as a form nondualism?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04865413665629644313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-6473073939753242222013-06-17T11:03:32.084-07:002013-06-17T11:03:32.084-07:00The charge of pantheism is just an orientalist mis...The charge of pantheism is just an orientalist misunderstanding and simplification, as explained in most any book by or about Schuon, although I can't think of a particular one at the moment. <br /><br />Pantheism is radical immanence; panentheism is immanence + transcendence, or, to be precise, immanence <i>because</i> transcendence. Transcendence might be thought of as Absolute, just as immanence is an implication of the Absolute infinitude. Also Father-Sky and Mother-Earth/Mamamaya.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-12389291023300447882013-06-17T10:56:27.333-07:002013-06-17T10:56:27.333-07:00This is a really interesting and helpful post. I p...This is a really interesting and helpful post. I put this book on my reading list. <br /><br />I apologize for pestering you, but..... If non-duality is not pantheism, I'm not clear on the difference (if at all) between nondualism and panentheism. To my lights, both of theses views posit a graded and hierarchical "chain of being" with God "containing" creation, yet more than it.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04865413665629644313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50532113972883866032013-06-17T10:49:32.400-07:002013-06-17T10:49:32.400-07:00A Muslim once asked me if I seriously thought the ...A Muslim once asked me if I seriously thought the "Great God", as he put it, could be a man. I think he was correct as to God the Unknowable Essence, but Christ is the revelation, the Word spoken by God. Wouldn't His hair necessarily be perfect? <br /><br />Is the end of the world coming? The elements will melt, Peter said, with a fervent heat, but that's just a make-over to creating "a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness". <br /><br />Christian eschatology -- when it doesn't get popularly perverted -- tends more toward the eternal recreation/restoration side. Isaiah, though, also talks the restoration of the kingdom under Messiah -- see Isaiah 11 and 65. The rules get drastically changed -- no more bloodshed. The law of the jungle and of tooth and claw is repealed. Life regains the sweet innocence of Eden.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.com