tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post6952158628530040378..comments2024-03-28T20:04:20.286-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Beauty and the BeastsGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1605953206440354832008-07-17T09:40:00.000-07:002008-07-17T09:40:00.000-07:00Ray, the point is that your point misses the point...Ray, the point is that your point misses the point. I don't think that Science discovering, through deliberate and rigorous steps, that there are results it will not be able to precisely determine in advance, quite qualifies as painting science as being willing to behave in a non-deterministic fashion, or refutes the idea that its modern conception is centered around a deterministic view of the world.<BR/><BR/>And in the context of what Johan wrote about free will:<I>"...Well, science is all about looking for laws and finding (material/physic) causes. That’s the simple reason why science (of today at least) will never produce any evidence or proof of the free will. It simply cannot. The scientific method can only find that which points to determinism, because determinism is in the very center of the strictly scientific view of the world..."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't see how your comment sheds any additional light to that, undermines his point, or even shows that "... science is not inherently 'deterministic' as was claimed.".<BR/><BR/>"science has demonstrated the ability to accept, and work with, even phenomena that aren't deterministic. That's all I meant by science not being 'deterministic' "<BR/><BR/>Science has, and has from the beginning, had to accept and work with data and processes it couldn't explain, but that is not nearly the same thing as "not being 'deterministic'", you're really equivocating on determinism, and it just doesn't fit.<BR/><BR/>(You could perhaps apply your link to Johan's "The seekers of the laws of the universe will never "find" that which does not have a law.", but that is fairly widely beside the point of his comment on determinism and free will... and besides, Bells Theorem practically amounts to (or aspires to being) a law itself.)<BR/><BR/>P.S. I see in full page view your original link was complete, but in comment view, which I normally use, it's clipped off.<BR/><BR/>Re Your experiment to test for the existence of a soul... my guess is that it is unlikely to ever be practicable (I doubt there are 'transmission towers' or their equivalents in the body, but that's just my unsupportable supposition), and more likely to be only go in the same way as your earlier link (last week?) on experiments 'proving' that the brain tricks us into thinking we have free will, by arriving at answers before our realization of them.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-8760068531112342982008-07-17T08:42:00.000-07:002008-07-17T08:42:00.000-07:00Van - Actually, you missed my point. All I was say...Van - Actually, <I>you</I> missed <I>my</I> point. All I was saying is that science has demonstrated the ability to accept, and work with, even phenomena that aren't deterministic. That's all I meant by science not being 'deterministic' - in scare quotes - as Johan said.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, I've noted <A HREF="http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/2008/06/on-eternal-love-affair-between-truth.html#c5759508616161257932" REL="nofollow">before</A> a potential test that would scientifically demonstrate a soul, or at least that something was going on in the brain not accounted for by current theory. Indeed, such an observation <I>must</I>, in principle, be possible if there are souls anything like they are posited.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-27002642052551054702008-07-17T05:59:00.000-07:002008-07-17T05:59:00.000-07:00ray said "I was just pointing out that science is ...ray said "I was just pointing out that science is not inherently 'deterministic' as was claimed."<BR/><BR/>Ya know, I was actually hoping that that wasn't the point your were trying to make. So you're saying that science <I>doesn't</I> really approach investigation and experimentation based on a clear chain of events and deductions... but instead sometimes just randomly and for utterly inexplicable or predictible reasons, just begins mixing stuff and zapping stuff?!<BR/><BR/>Come off it... I begin to think that you deliberatly miss peoples points just to provoke us... no one could really be that daft.<BR/><BR/>I don't have time for it this moring, but your 'free will' explanation is philosophicaly unacceptable. To be agnostic on the subject, is little different than proclaiming that there is no such thing, and will inevitably lead to the disasters of a deterministic mindset.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50995624627984952252008-07-16T09:53:00.000-07:002008-07-16T09:53:00.000-07:00Ray:I think you get my point anyway.Ray:<BR/>I think you get my point anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39877155074704554652008-07-16T09:21:00.000-07:002008-07-16T09:21:00.000-07:00Van - The link works for me, if you select it, but...Van - The link works for me, if you select it, but <A HREF="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html" REL="nofollow">here you go</A>. Also, you could always Google for the phrase that I quoted from the article, with the enclosing quotes.<BR/><BR/>And in terms of free will, I might as well provide you with another <A HREF="http://ingles.homeunix.net/rants/timetravel.html#freewill" REL="nofollow">link</A>. It's not quite the same topic, but the first paragraph sums up my attitude pretty well. I wasn't claiming that free will was random chance, I was just pointing out that science is not inherently 'deterministic' as was claimed.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-21777328689977619902008-07-16T07:15:00.000-07:002008-07-16T07:15:00.000-07:00Hey there mister linky, gotta a functioning link t...Hey there mister linky, gotta a functioning link to your evangelical article? Considering the fact that most of the modern world has forgotten or evades what the founding generation knew, the premise is somewhat less than surprising - what would be surprising, would be to find that the article identifies anything actually relevant or of substance regarding the issues.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24712654939076061782008-07-16T07:11:00.000-07:002008-07-16T07:11:00.000-07:00ray,Regarding Free Will, Volitional Choice; indete...ray,<BR/>Regarding Free Will, Volitional Choice; indeterminism and determinism are both in opposition to it. To say that you have no free will because all you do is determined by events other than 'choice', or that you have no free will, because all you do is just a matter of random chance, is still to say that you have no Free Will, Volitional Choice.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7953861609157644042008-07-16T05:59:00.000-07:002008-07-16T05:59:00.000-07:00highschool jock,Not so much a geek as son of the s...highschool jock,<BR/><BR/>Not so much a geek as son of the superintendent. <BR/><BR/>When the principal and teachers are ultimately overseen by your father, high school is different.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-66290607544796754392008-07-16T05:48:00.000-07:002008-07-16T05:48:00.000-07:00A reflection on the history of "separation of chur...A reflection on the history of "separation of church and state" in the U.S. around the Founder's time: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html<BR/><BR/>"Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of 21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."<BR/><BR/>(Not calling anyone here 'evangelical' or otherwise, it's just an interesting point.)Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-41608665715524531832008-07-16T05:38:00.000-07:002008-07-16T05:38:00.000-07:00Johan - Science isn't inherently 'deterministic'. ...Johan - Science isn't inherently 'deterministic'. Non-determinism is accepted in Quantum Mechanics, because it's been <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_Theorem" REL="nofollow">demonstrated</A>.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73900163345834683352008-07-16T01:40:00.000-07:002008-07-16T01:40:00.000-07:00Some late notes about free will..Well, science is ...Some late notes about free will..<BR/><BR/>Well, science is all about looking for laws and finding (material/physic) causes. That’s the simple reason why science (of today at least) will never produce any evidence or proof of the free will. It simply cannot. The scientific method can only find that which points to determinism, because determinism is in the very center of the strictly scientific view of the world. The seekers of the laws of the universe will never "find" that which does not have a law.<BR/><BR/>So the question is, does freedom follow any laws? To state that it does looks like one huge contradiction to me.<BR/><BR/>Or to paraphrase Bob's about logic and truth - "does something work because it has a law, or has it a law because it works"?<BR/><BR/>Maybe freedom doesn't "work", it simply "is". Or rather, freedom is the "space" between that which is...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-13169232398336131112008-07-16T00:34:00.000-07:002008-07-16T00:34:00.000-07:00you were all geeks in school, yes?you were all geeks in school, yes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-68987023035493198092008-07-15T22:28:00.000-07:002008-07-15T22:28:00.000-07:00Troll Betting: What's the over/under on the number...Troll Betting: What's the over/under on the number of posts before a troll undermines his own argument ?<BR/><BR/>"Bob is out of whack in the areas of unity and equality. " - a non-unifying and non-equalizing statement if ever I heard one.<BR/><BR/>Question: Are all trolls here male?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-59320823657310222522008-07-15T22:10:00.000-07:002008-07-15T22:10:00.000-07:00JWM,Was it this one?Clever talk and a pretentiousm...JWM,<BR/><BR/>Was it this one?<BR/><BR/>Clever talk and a pretentious<BR/>manner are seldom found in<BR/>good people.<BR/> <BR/> -- ConfuciusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89477870452775092242008-07-15T22:08:00.000-07:002008-07-15T22:08:00.000-07:00Heh - okay, I'll bite. What does it mean, Lafayett...Heh - okay, I'll bite. What does it mean, Lafayette? (Cuz it sounds pretty scary to me, or at least it would be if I were male ;)juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-77513599687313662762008-07-15T21:52:00.000-07:002008-07-15T21:52:00.000-07:00Ho! ... ask LaFayette what "Andrew Sullivan Was H...Ho! ... ask LaFayette what "Andrew Sullivan Was Here" means.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-32191030097432882932008-07-15T21:46:00.000-07:002008-07-15T21:46:00.000-07:00Apropos of more serious discussion, this is an int...Apropos of more serious discussion, <A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/15/climatechange" REL="nofollow">this</A> is an interesting article (Via Vanderleun's sidebar), demonstrating once again what happens when Judeo-Christian values and a culture based on faith are replaced by rabid secularism.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Tattoos, huh? Foolish Lafayette - if he's not careful, he might wake up one of these days with some <A HREF="http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2007/12/man_gives_his_tattoo_breast_im.php" REL="nofollow">extra dimensions</A> added to his ink...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-62194967164297439372008-07-15T21:41:00.000-07:002008-07-15T21:41:00.000-07:00You're a couple of real comedians.You're a couple of real comedians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-86260985005900022452008-07-15T21:30:00.000-07:002008-07-15T21:30:00.000-07:00...just saw Lafayette passed out south end up at t......just saw Lafayette passed out south end up at the tattoo parlor with Dupree flipping through the pattern book, a look of glee on his face. <BR/><BR/>I called a taxi. Make that 2 taxis.robinstarfishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15665546554663005609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-59627708386614127432008-07-15T20:56:00.000-07:002008-07-15T20:56:00.000-07:00I'm guessing Lafayette will be walking funny in th...I'm guessing Lafayette will be walking funny in the morning...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50494348746539618582008-07-15T19:09:00.000-07:002008-07-15T19:09:00.000-07:00Don’t listen to ‘em, Troll. You're funny and you d...Don’t listen to ‘em, Troll. You're funny and you don't give me the creeps at all. Please stay.<BR/><BR/>(RR)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7631518047169317912008-07-15T19:08:00.001-07:002008-07-15T19:08:00.001-07:00Ahhhh, I get it. Nudge nudge, wink wink.Ahhhh, I get it. Nudge nudge, wink wink.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-23673796057743725722008-07-15T19:06:00.001-07:002008-07-15T19:06:00.001-07:00Dupree:See Confucius on the clever...Maybe Van can...Dupree:<BR/>See Confucius on the clever...<BR/>Maybe Van can get a quote from Waley. I can't find the book just now.<BR/><BR/>JWMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39142632381479667612008-07-15T19:06:00.000-07:002008-07-15T19:06:00.000-07:00Wow, you missed a major rhubarb between Dupree and...Wow, you missed a <I>major</I> rhubarb between Dupree and LaFayette about some stolen beer and a purloined bicycle. I don't want to get involved, but I suspect there will be fireworks later.... If they don't get in by 10:00, I'm locking them both out....Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-78423892326923669242008-07-15T18:55:00.000-07:002008-07-15T18:55:00.000-07:00Dang! I picked a bad day to be out of town!(I know...Dang! I picked a bad day to be out of town!<BR/><BR/>(I know, Van; you needn't say it!)walthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01388218390016612051noreply@blogger.com