tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post613567937458474722..comments2024-03-28T20:04:20.286-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: The Cosmic CovenantGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28409427522283282752010-09-10T16:12:09.097-07:002010-09-10T16:12:09.097-07:00Magnus said “After thousands of years, the rules o...Magnus said “After thousands of years, the rules of Archimedes and Pythagoras are still valid, but many other branches of physics and mathematics have come into being since then.”<br /><br />True, but that is what I meant about our culture, Founders Era, True is True, it doesn’t get update, perhaps added to and enlarged, but not changed.<br /><br />But I do see you’ve got a point, I was to narrowed on the political skew, primarily on the proregressives claim to progress, so yep, my comment came up a bit short outside that area.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-17721630416968202362010-09-10T15:25:27.109-07:002010-09-10T15:25:27.109-07:00Van,
a new high culture does not negate the eterna...Van,<br />a new high culture does not negate the eternal truth known in a previous wave, rather it contains them together with new truths in such a way that they are seen to be connected, part of a greater whole, where they were formerly seen standing alone.<br /><br />After thousands of years, the rules of Archimedes and Pythagoras are still valid, but many other branches of physics and mathematics have come into being since then.<br /><br />Even when we have absolute knowledge, we do not have complete knowledge.<br /><br />Barring infernal intervention, our culture will and must be surpassed. Not negated, but included and enhanced in new directions.Magnus Itlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18445902788427523461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65427233114678849502010-09-10T09:29:12.623-07:002010-09-10T09:29:12.623-07:00(again)
"There will be temporal and material...(again)<br /><br />"There will be temporal and material continuity, but there will be distinctly different thoughts, arts, and culture."<br /><br />That future culture may dress differently or arrange their tents upon the peak in a different layout, but that's mere fashion, not fundamentals, and in no fundamental sense will such a time be a 'new high culture', at least not in the way that Greece improved upon the previous ages of darkness, or in how Rome was a new high culture improving upon Greece, or England improving on Rome, or in the sense that our Founders had improved upon Britain.<br /><br />Ol' Silent <br /><a href="http://blogodidact.blogspot.com/2009/07/inspiration-of-declaration-of.html" rel="nofollow">Cal Coolidge said it best:</a> <br /><br />"<i>About the Declaration there is a finality that is exceedingly restful. It is often asserted that the world has made a great deal of progress since 1776, that we have had new thoughts and new experiences which have given us a great advance over the people of that day, and that we may therefore very well discard their conclusions for something more modern. But that reasoning can not be applied to this great charter. If all men are created equal, that is final. If they are endowed with inalienable rights, that is final. If governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, that is final. No advance, no progress can be made beyond these propositions. If anyone wishes to deny their truth or their soundness, the only direction in which he can proceed historically is not forward, but backward toward the time when there was no equality, no rights of the individual, no rule of the people. Those who wish to proceed in that direction can not lay claim to progress. They are reactionary. Their ideas are not more modern, but more ancient, than those of the Revolutionary fathers. </i> "<br /><br />The pinnacle has already been reached, and we've only fallen away from it, and like disoriented divers who plunge deeper while thinking they're swimming for the surface, they may think they are making progress, but truly, the 'progressive' is only Pro-Regression.<br /><br />"We are now in a crisis era, basically the opposite point of an awakening"<br /><br />We're definitely in a crisis area, but maybe less at an opposite, than back at the base of the mountain. There’s no ‘going back’ to the top, except by way of climbing forwards and upwards... again. But the climb has the full possibility of being easier the second time around – we’ve already got the map, the mountain hasn’t changed, and to get there we need only open our eyes, follow the path and begin climbing once again.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-5531722438713422992010-09-10T09:28:56.938-07:002010-09-10T09:28:56.938-07:00(cont)
I'll dodge the Spengler details, I rem...(cont)<br /><br />I'll dodge the Spengler details, I remember that superficially he had some interesting points, but I think he was deeply off regarding causes & principles... but it's been awhile and I don't have the materials or my notes at hand.<br /><br />"New ideas are always introduced and you really can't turn back."<br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />"For instance, you can't reverse any of the Spiritual Awakenings. They brought new underlying thoughts to the culture. We are now living with the after effects of the last awakening, the 1960s."<br /><br />Disagreed. There was no 'Awakening', spiritual or otherwise, if you take awakening to mean becoming more aware of a truth, there was only shrouding, denying and regressively focusing attention upon philosophical errors and falsehoods - it was Regress, not Progress, and hence had no part in a spiritual awakening.<br /><br />While there may have been some superficial focus upon lesser aspects of 'freedom', it was on the whole, unbalanced, grotesque and contained no progress.<br /><br />"There will be a new focus in the future and we will end up with a new High Culture, as different from the West as the West is different than Greece/Rome or Byzantium."<br /><br />Nope again. There may be a future culture which focuses upon the same highpoints which we once did, but it will be no newer nor higher, anymore than a new group of hikers climbing the same peak someone else once did, finds themselves at the pinnacle of a new peak.<br />(argh...)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-54933484705147296632010-09-10T09:28:06.019-07:002010-09-10T09:28:06.019-07:00JP said “I'm just thinking of culture as massi...JP said “I'm just thinking of culture as massive fractal thoughts unrolled through time using Spengler's Civilization Theory as a baseline.”<br /><br />Let me rephrase what I said. Since I replied to reversing, that sounds as if I think you can reverse a culture - and I don't think you can reverse time or cultures.<br /><br />Forward's the only option. However, given that the best possible destination has already been discovered, and we know how to get there, then going forward and arriving there, from here, requires examining our trail and de-cluttering it, discovering what it really is, understanding what that means, and becoming members of that culture, which for us would be for the first time.<br /><br />"I'm definitely not directing those statements toward myself."<br /><br />I'd really like to dig into that one... but I don't have the time today, and it'd require borrowing Gagdad's professional sheepskin, which I've no credentialed qualifications for, so I probably shouldn't.<br /><br />But.<br /><br />Do you not notice a similarity between your comment about the culture, and your comment about yourself? I do, and I don't mean in any fatalistic manner, but diagnostically.<br />(break)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-15845056556382299182010-09-10T07:49:33.512-07:002010-09-10T07:49:33.512-07:00Nice utopia. Wrong species.
or
Nice utopia. If y...Nice utopia. Wrong species.<br /><br />or<br /><br />Nice utopia. If you can get it.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-43694241891799557692010-09-10T07:49:21.400-07:002010-09-10T07:49:21.400-07:00I'd be much more home in a utopian-esqe...
So...<i>I'd be much more home in a utopian-esqe...</i><br /><br />Sounds like a nice enough place.<br /><br />Life is so messy, isn't it? And dealing with people even more so.<br /><br />Of course, that's what allows it to be so full of wonder and mystery...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73136171254798470982010-09-10T07:04:14.823-07:002010-09-10T07:04:14.823-07:00Bob says:
"In this regard, culture is an ada...Bob says:<br /><br />"In this regard, culture is an adaptation, partly to the external environment, but much more importantly, to the interior world of human subjectivity and the gift/curse of self-awareness. Once it is projected and "crystalized," culture then shapes its individual members, often in ways that foreclose their further evolution. You might say that culture is an evolutionary "niche," except that it is a manmade one to which we must then adapt. In so doing, we are "adapting to mindedness," as I put it in the book.<br /><br />For example, if I were born in the Palestinian terrortories, I would undoubtedly be forced to adapt to their culture of death worship, Jew-hatred, sadistic violence, and premodern, sacrificial religiosity."<br /><br />I never even really adapted to modern American culture.<br /><br />Although I go through life going through the motions of being normal.<br /><br />I'd be much more home in a utopian-esqe Puritian/Victorian/1950's culture. Preferably one without organized sports, drugs, manual labor, rock music, teenage rebellion, non-English speaking people, stupid people, poor people, rich people, and no-fault divorce.<br /><br />I think that sums up my political-cultural position quite nicely.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126071014909954387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-85641878844929485302010-09-10T06:21:40.015-07:002010-09-10T06:21:40.015-07:00Van says:
""I don't think you can r...Van says:<br /><br />""I don't think you can reverse it."<br /><br />Buffalo Cookies. Is it likely? That's a question of a different color, but it's definitely reversible. (Julie's comment had a couple clues how)<br /><br />"I think you have to start a new High Culture."<br /><br />No need when you've already got one that has no limitations (or at least far fewer than all the other leading brands). <br />Just have to declutter, rediscover, understand and become cultured again for the first time.<br /><br />I wonder how much of those two statements you are directing towards the culture, and how much towards yourself?<br />(and the difference would be...?)"<br /><br />I'm definitely not directing those statements toward myself. I'm not being fatalistic, I'm actually being optimistic.<br /><br />I'm just thinking of culture as massive fractal thoughts unrolled through time using Spengler's Civilization Theory as a baseline.<br /><br />For instance, in Greece/Rome, you had the emphasis on the local. In the West you have the emphasis on reaching toward infinity. <br /><br />When I say that you have to start a new "high culture", what I'm saying is that you need a new overlying fractal thought, with the previous thought (reaching toward infinity) having become exahusted over time.<br /><br />For instance, Greece/Rome transitioned into Byzantium, which had a distinctly different focus than the former, and ultimately, you have the West which has a distinctly different focus than either Greece/Rome or Byzantium.<br /><br />New ideas are always introduced and you really can't turn back.<br /><br />For instance, you can't reverse any of the Spiritual Awakenings. They brought new underlying thoughts to the culture. We are now living with the after effects of the last awakening, the 1960s.<br /><br />There will be a new focus in the future and we will end up with a new High Culture, as different from the West as the West is differnt than Greece/Rome or Byzantium.<br /><br />There will be temporal and material continuity, but there will be distinctly different thoughts, arts, and culture.<br /><br />We are now in a crisis era, basically the opposite point of an awakening, where spirituality is at a low and materialism is at a high (what it really is is the working out of the vertical on the horizontal for this go-round).<br /><br />Just a cultural heart-beat.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126071014909954387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-72740679027100346282010-09-10T05:12:38.989-07:002010-09-10T05:12:38.989-07:00Magnus,
He came to.. "fulfill the Law". ...Magnus,<br />He came to.. "fulfill the Law". And then there is Holy Saturday where no one is off the hook, unless everyone is.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-76069625036002464252010-09-10T05:09:54.054-07:002010-09-10T05:09:54.054-07:00"As you know, I've been at a certain impa..."As you know, I've been at a certain impasse recently."<br /><br />That makes two of us. I mean, I think I know what you're beating around. Maybe the good thing is you're able to see it. That's what this post is about, isn't it?<br /><br />Great post, Bob. Reads like one continuous thought. Even you're voice sounds different. I hope you felt like, "man, I missed "being in here"".Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-34602150376430213682010-09-10T02:17:13.338-07:002010-09-10T02:17:13.338-07:00By the time the Old Testament was compiled, nobody...By the time the Old Testament was compiled, nobody felt the need to explain why God was having conversations with Balaam (the guy who shows us that there is something to learn even by listening to an ass). Balaam was not a Hebrew - in fact, he seems to have never heard of Israel before he was hired to curse them - and yet he was an accomplished prophet.<br /><br />There have been various explanations made for this later, but the simplest explanation is that God does in fact not mind talking to heathens. <br /><br />Israel has its historical mission (still), and Christianity in its narrow sense likewise. In a broader sense, Christianity is universal. It is far deeper and wider than the organized church, and has echoed off the shores of distant lands long before the physical incarnation.<br /><br />The first Christians were not going "Hey we've got a new and better religion!", they were "That which you have worshiped without knowing it, we know it and we've come to tell you."Magnus Itlandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18445902788427523461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71834026387182972532010-09-10T00:06:57.364-07:002010-09-10T00:06:57.364-07:00Bob wrote:
"The impasse has to do with wheth...Bob wrote:<br /><br />"The impasse has to do with whether religion must "push ahead" or remain frozen, as it were, in our present and/or traditional understanding."<br /><br />I'm surprised to her of a conflict or impasse. I thought you were firmly in the Aurobindo camp.<br /><br />That camp is in the affirmative. Religion must push ahead. <br /><br />Aurobindonianas assert the entire cosmos is progressive and that religion is a side effect or penumbra around the cutting edge of the advance, which is Mind. <br /><br />Aurobindo is gone but now I push on, with whomever has the nerve to follow. I tell you this: what you seek is found in the intuition. The better you can develop this faculty of mind, the more you place yourself to the forefront of the movement for which the Cosmos was created.<br /><br />Use your intuition. Quiet your mind and ask the question: Progress, or stasis? You will discern that resting on the laurels of what has been done or on prior reveleation is not the way. <br /><br />You already know that progress is the way. The elements that are unsure are atavistic and vetigial. Pay them no heed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-72651667199616237472010-09-09T22:26:54.083-07:002010-09-09T22:26:54.083-07:00but in the future, you might want to rephrase &quo...<i>but in the future, you might want to rephrase "needs some girth added to it." </i><br /><br />Heh - and yet, somehow "gets it in the inbox" made it through...<br /><br />***<br /><br /><i>I'd love to hear any thoughts you or your commenters have on how a seeker might approach the sacraments outside of (for the sake of discussion) those in communion with Catholic, EO, or some Lutheran/Anglican churches.</i><br /><br />Hi Josh. Sounds like it could be an interesting question, except (and maybe it's just me) the question is a tad fuzzy. Could you clarify a bit?juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-87051379977888053742010-09-09T21:19:29.409-07:002010-09-09T21:19:29.409-07:00Hey folks -- been lurking for a few years. Thanks ...Hey folks -- been lurking for a few years. Thanks for all the light Bob (and chorus of commenters). I have been deeply impacted. This line of inquiry is a great one. Any of you folks read Jacques Barzun? I'm reading From Dawn to Decadence -- his magnum opus on the rise and fall of western cultural life over the past 500 years. Just started, but I'm curious to see the backdrop for his notion of culture-bearers unfold, and perhaps clues that might inform The Impasse.<br /><br />Quick Coontrail -- I'm a somewhat recent Catholic convert from a variegated conservative American evangelical background. Settled into Catholicism primarily because of the Eucharist, Apolostic origin, and general Western comfort. Lacking a more developed framework, I simplistically view churches closer to the Apostolic source as "safer" in terms of sacramental validity. Perhaps I'm hijacking this thread, but I'd love to hear any thoughts you or your commenters have on how a seeker might approach the sacraments outside of (for the sake of discussion) those in communion with Catholic, EO, or some Lutheran/Anglican churches.Josh G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-66287064313678104952010-09-09T18:36:50.573-07:002010-09-09T18:36:50.573-07:00Tigtog: I think you might be a victim of blogger&...Tigtog: I think you might be a victim of blogger's more aggressive spam detection system. I'll just republish your comment, but in the future, you might want to rephrase "needs some girth added to it." <br /><br />***<br /><br />To Gagdad re: The 3rd Dimension<br /><br />I have noticed a strong trend in the comments concerning intergenerational duties and gifts. I know I have posited this before, but what all the comments are alluding to is a third dimension added to the horizontal and vertical. I know it could be considered ancestor worship, and is in several places, but this third dimension is totally unique to only humans, is human created as you say (see history) and yet has enormous spiritual pull on people. <br /><br />We are traveling agents through time with responsibilities. <br /><br />I read from yesterdays blog that JP feels his life a bore with no direction. JP read the above statement and rethink. You are a father, a husband, a son and then someone called JP. Your titles give you meaning and direction. You may find them boring, but they do give direction and meaning.<br /><br />Gagdad, I can't tell you what to think or write, but your model needs some girth added to it. <br /><br />Do we forgo temptation to please God or to earn our titles honestly?Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37471568004052383432010-09-09T17:27:07.543-07:002010-09-09T17:27:07.543-07:00Van - congrats to the 18th birthday boy, er, man.
...Van - congrats to the 18th birthday boy, er, man.<br /><br />My nephew turned 18 last year. I admit it, I cried. Time flies.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-27019389184460421492010-09-09T17:23:36.722-07:002010-09-09T17:23:36.722-07:00I give up.I give up.Tigtoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03290914498892961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-35486038556016014362010-09-09T17:23:10.553-07:002010-09-09T17:23:10.553-07:00Okay, its there for a few minutes, going to try a ...Okay, its there for a few minutes, going to try a post this follow up and see what sticks. If all fails, I will go watch football.Tigtoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03290914498892961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-29236953602678334132010-09-09T17:21:58.937-07:002010-09-09T17:21:58.937-07:00Last Try
To Gagdad re: The 3rd Dimension
I have ...Last Try<br /><br />To Gagdad re: The 3rd Dimension<br /><br />I have noticed a strong trend in the comments concerning intergenerational duties and gifts. I know I have posited this before, but what all the comments are alluding to is a third dimension added to the horizontal and vertical. I know it could be considered ancestor worship, and is in several places, but this third dimension is totally unique to only humans, is human created as you say (see history) and yet has enormous spiritual pull on people. <br /><br />We are traveling agents through time with responsibilities. <br /><br />I read from yesterdays blog that JP feels his life a bore with no direction. JP read the above statement and rethink. You are a father, a husband, a son and then someone called JP. Your titles give you meaning and direction. You may find them boring, but they do give direction and meaning.<br /><br />Gagdad, I can't tell you what to think or write, but your model needs some girth added to it. <br /><br />Do we forgo temptation to please God or to earn our titles honestly?Tigtoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03290914498892961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-15580416446787480762010-09-09T17:18:36.219-07:002010-09-09T17:18:36.219-07:00Julie said to Tigtog "If it makes you feel an...Julie said to Tigtog "If it makes you feel any better, everyone who subscribes via email still gets it in the inbox. Sometimes multiple times... "<br /><br />Yep, about 8 times or so.<br /><br />;-)<br /><br />I was the blogger target yesterday.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-12532623973307947102010-09-09T17:16:47.902-07:002010-09-09T17:16:47.902-07:00Tigtog said "Do we forgo temptation to please...Tigtog said "Do we forgo temptation to please God or to earn our titles honestly?"<br /><br />A real quick comment before my 17yr old son celebrates becoming an 18yr old, but I'd say both misses the mark big time.<br /><br />'It isn't true because it's logical, it's logical because it's true' etc.<br /><br />See Plato's Euthyphro for a first pass at the issue, and I'm sure Nomo or others can pluck out the relevant biblical passages, and I'm betting Gagdad has a point or two as well.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-62284160236420082772010-09-09T17:12:59.366-07:002010-09-09T17:12:59.366-07:00Weird. You seem to be suffering from Van syndrome....Weird. You seem to be suffering from Van syndrome.<br /><br />If it makes you feel any better, everyone who subscribes via email still gets it in the inbox. Sometimes multiple times...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-40306443847951549392010-09-09T17:12:42.254-07:002010-09-09T17:12:42.254-07:00Blogger was disappearing comments a couple of week...Blogger was disappearing comments a couple of weeks ago too.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89806480623828613332010-09-09T17:02:02.795-07:002010-09-09T17:02:02.795-07:00To Julie, can't explain it, but my comment nev...To Julie, can't explain it, but my comment never sticks after I post. I will try once more and see.Tigtoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03290914498892961024noreply@blogger.com