tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post4484547738977156839..comments2024-03-28T18:48:41.469-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Live Grenades and the Smoking Crater at the Center of HistoryGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73745698799104932512008-07-09T13:23:00.000-07:002008-07-09T13:23:00.000-07:00BTW, speaking of strawmen "...Secular and historic...BTW, speaking of strawmen <I>"...Secular and historical models and sources for all of these are available, some of them pre-dating your religion. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to come up with Biblical ones that are at least as clear..."</I> no one is (or should be) saying that the U.S. Constitution was based upon the Bibles book of PolySci, Chapter 1776, verse 1789... or that any of the founders had the Bible open to said section and propped open against their copies of Montesquieu as they wrote and debated how to make it seem more Age of Enlightenmentish. <BR/><BR/>What we are saying, as did the Founders themselves in numerous easily found quotes, is that the Founders were, as with the example of Joseph Hooker in Connecticut - and in the same way, they were Men raised and well versed in the Judeo/Christian ethic, very much aware of its meaning and influence, and desirous that that influence should continue to guide those that followed them, in a similar fashion as to how it influenced their own thoughts and actions; by choice.<BR/><BR/>Even when I was an atheist, I didn't buy the lame lament that "America was never a Judeo/Christian Country!"... for every example of an Ethan Allen, you can easily find 10 John Adams to refute it. They didn't design into the articles and sections of the Constitution and their several State Constitutions little packets of Judeo/Christian-ness (though references to God aren't exactly difficult to find)... they <I>were</I> Judeo/Christian Men of the Enlightenment, as were the nearly two centuries of Men and Women who preceded them, and to attempt to deny or minimize either Greco/Roman, Judeo/Christian or Anglo/European, is shear idiocy.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-75785395002432078032008-07-09T10:47:00.000-07:002008-07-09T10:47:00.000-07:00So, mousie, an "experienced Troll on this site" wo...So, mousie, an "experienced Troll on this site" would have us believe fear is a sweetspot here.<BR/><BR/>That's rich, coming from a chicken who still hides behind 'anonymous'.<BR/><BR/>Get a handle you weenieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73583056834015298222008-07-09T10:07:00.001-07:002008-07-09T10:07:00.001-07:00Am I really that careless a proofreader? Sheesh.Am I really that careless a proofreader? Sheesh.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-55774104616922283892008-07-09T10:07:00.000-07:002008-07-09T10:07:00.000-07:00ray said "The point was that their structure and m...ray said "The point was that their structure and many of their central ideas came from sources other than Christianity. Non-Christian does not mean anti-Christian."<BR/><BR/>That is... to strain the reach of (deep breath...) politeness... disingenuous. <BR/><BR/>Your <A HREF="http://www.waxwingwebs.com/thedoge/christian_nation.html" REL="nofollow">ref</A> lists the innovations of the founders, and then follows with:<I>"Secular and historical models and sources for all of these are available, some of them pre-dating your religion. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to come up with Biblical ones that are at least as clear. Without them, claims that the American system of government is based on the Bible are unsupported, no matter how many quotes you post demonstrating this or that founder's belief in a God of some sort and no matter how much idolatry you insist on practicing on public land."</I><BR/><BR/>You'd be hard pressed to find all of those directly stated in Plato, Aristotle (his work on constitutions hadn't been discovered by the founders time) or Cicero either, since they make little or no mention of those 'points'... so by that criteria would you be saying that we weren't based upon a Greco/Roman foundation either?<BR/><BR/>You’re more Inte than Inte. Buncha sofistshtick B.S.<BR/><BR/>(Sorry Petey... just trying to help the plane to its safe crash landing)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39792288634872862242008-07-09T10:06:00.000-07:002008-07-09T10:06:00.000-07:00Theology Guy (a.k.a. hubby) brings up several good...Theology Guy (a.k.a. hubby) brings up several good points.<BR/><BR/>The law is for rebels (1 Timothy 1:8-11). Ideally, if we all practice self-control, self-rule, self-government, a government is not even really required, except perhaps for a call to arms (and that can be done state-by-state or tribe-by-tribe as the case may be).<BR/><BR/>Really, a representative republic is as close to the way things *should* be as we can get in a fallen world. Remember, the idea was that we should all govern ourselves, and draw from among we, the people, men to represent us on the organization level. The Founders, realizing the sinful bent of human beings (and having just throw off such a situation), came up with a separation of powers to mitigate our innate tendency toward corruption. That idea, by the way, was drawn from Blackstone, who in turn drew it from the biblical divisions of prophet, priest and king.<BR/><BR/>I wish I could remember everything he said--it was good stuff. Too bad he's not here so I can simply transcribe. :)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the original idea in the OT was very similar--self-government under the rule of God. But things went haywire. "Every man did what was right in his own eyes..." and eventually they demanded a king.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24753404153217370902008-07-09T09:47:00.000-07:002008-07-09T09:47:00.000-07:00Okay, now I've got that Michael Card song stuck in...Okay, now I've got that Michael Card song stuck in my head.<BR/><BR/>Jubilee<BR/><BR/>The Lord provided for a time<BR/>For the slaves to be set free<BR/>For the debt to all be cancelled<BR/>So His chosen ones could see<BR/><BR/>His deep desire was for forgiveness<BR/>He longed to see their liberty<BR/>And His yearning was embodied<BR/>In the Year of Jubilee<BR/><BR/>Jubilee, Jubilee<BR/>Jesus is our Jubilee<BR/>Debts forgiven<BR/>Slaves set free<BR/>Jesus is our Jubilee<BR/><BR/>At the Lord's appointed time<BR/>His deep desire became a man<BR/>The heart of all true jubilation<BR/>And with joy we understand<BR/>In His voice we hear a trumpet sound<BR/>That tells us we are free<BR/>He is the incarnation<BR/>Of the Year of Jubilee<BR/><BR/>Chorus<BR/><BR/>To be so completely guilty<BR/>Given over to despair<BR/>To look into your judge's face<BR/>And see a Savior thereSusannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65224985165234226492008-07-09T09:27:00.000-07:002008-07-09T09:27:00.000-07:00Yes. The trolls will go away when one ceases to n...Yes. The trolls will go away when one ceases to need them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-63900577232123092692008-07-09T09:26:00.000-07:002008-07-09T09:26:00.000-07:00BTW, it seems self-evident to me that God would no...BTW, it seems self-evident to me that God would not require the theocratic form of government of those who are not his covenant people.<BR/><BR/>If you read through all the prophets, you can get the sense of the sort of relationship God wanted with his people. They threw over their Divine Lover for a king. Isn't that just the way we human beings are?<BR/><BR/>The law of Moses makes all sorts of accommodations for the sinfulness of human beings. We shouldn't interpret that as God's perfect will for humanity. Polygamy immediately jumps to mind as an example of something God clearly did not intend from the created order (Gen. 2:24), but made accommodation for in the law, making provision for the protection of less-favored wives. Divorce is another example (Matt. 19:8-9). Slavery yet another (Lev. 25).Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-49304921312118219452008-07-09T09:19:00.001-07:002008-07-09T09:19:00.001-07:00Ray, as an experienced Troll on this site I can te...Ray, as an experienced Troll on this site I can tell you are hitting the sweet spot. Keep swinging.<BR/><BR/>This is the "Raccoon" weak spot. For spirit people, they are frightened, and they lash out in anger and other low emotions. They need to keep "working it" so to speak. That's why we troll here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-32881283229234658282008-07-09T09:19:00.000-07:002008-07-09T09:19:00.000-07:00Susannah,Definitely... which gives me another oppo...Susannah,<BR/>Definitely... which gives me another opportunity to post the link to the fully referenced line by line examination of the U.S. Constitution at <A HREF="http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/toc.html" REL="nofollow">The Founders Constitution</A>, hosted by the University of Chicago Press and the Liberty Fund. In fact, if you look at even the <A HREF="http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/preamble.html" REL="nofollow">preamble</A>, you'll find a reference to Blackstone right off the bat. <BR/><BR/>If anyone wants to understand what Liberalism was, as the Founders understood it, there are far worse ways to go about it (college for instance), and few better than you can gain through reading the Constitution along with the abundant linked material within that context.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37118589199966587822008-07-09T09:03:00.000-07:002008-07-09T09:03:00.000-07:00I always understood that the most of the founders ...I always understood that the most of the founders of this country derived their ideas of law from Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England. Which were very Christian in nature.<BR/><BR/>http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/blackstone/blacksto.htm<BR/><BR/>"Man, considered as creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being. A being, independent of any other, has no rule to pursue, but such as he prescribes to himself; but a state of dependence will inevitably oblige the inferior to take the will of him, on whom he depends, as the rule of hi conduct; not indeed in every particular, but in all those points wherein his dependence consists. This principle therefore has more or less extent and effect, in proportion as the superiority of the one and the dependence of the other is greater or less, absolute upon his maker for every thing, it I necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker’s will.<BR/><BR/>"This will of the maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws."<BR/><BR/>Our judicial system is drawn from the common law of England. The ideas of Blackstone would have been the primary formative influence on the minds of the men who first set up the governmental structures of this country.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-44398797697430608752008-07-09T08:57:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:57:00.000-07:00ray said "I can't help but suspect that it's the p...ray said "I can't help but suspect that it's the particular subject of this conversation that's the sore point."<BR/><BR/>Ya think?<BR/><BR/>And not just the subject, but what the subject has revealed about you. Hannibal Lecter was polite also. Most of the truly frightening screen villains are the ones who speak and behave with the most exquisite manners as they perform their nefarious deeds. All the more so when the fictional character is factually living.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73452298765461138682008-07-09T08:55:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:55:00.000-07:00It is precisely a Ray says. Do not argue with him...It is precisely a Ray says. Do not argue with him, but learn from his pitiable example. Let him know how much he teaches us about the plane he inhabits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-40029862337263633102008-07-09T08:53:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:53:00.000-07:00BTW, Van - I didn't say that the DOI or Constituti...BTW, Van - I didn't <I>say</I> that the DOI or Constitution (or the Connecticut Fundamental Orders) were <I>contradictory</I> to Christianity, nor did the 'challenge' that I linked to. The point was that their structure and many of their central ideas came from sources other than Christianity. Non-Christian does not mean anti-Christian.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-70561475986464807402008-07-09T08:51:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:51:00.000-07:00Such leftist stupidy does anger me. It is a threat...Such leftist stupidy does anger me. It is a threat to me, my family, my country and to those already risking their lives to defend it.<BR/><BR/>And with obamama having a decent chance of winning the White House... you're damn right I'm frightened.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31654829871017537392008-07-09T08:47:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:47:00.000-07:00Julie - I'm not looking for 'attention', I'm here ...Julie - I'm not looking for 'attention', I'm here to converse, and I'm replying to points Bob specifically made. And I don't think my style has changed - I certainly don't think I'm less polite, and I've never claimed (or aimed) to be entertaining.<BR/><BR/>I can't help but suspect that it's the particular subject of this conversation that's the sore point. (Recall the Orwell quote I <A HREF="http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/2008/06/lizards-mammals-and-men-oh-my.html#c3066661717972929316" REL="nofollow">referenced</A> before.)<BR/><BR/>Bob could have set up the blog so that only pre-approved visitors could comment, but he didn't. Now, if Bob were to ask me to leave, I would, but apparently he thinks I can at least serve as a bad example.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-37055715300280699722008-07-09T08:26:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:26:00.000-07:00Van sounds very frightened to me. For that reason...Van sounds very frightened to me. For that reason he can be excused for any barbarity he displays.<BR/><BR/>Really though, its a good thing cooler heads are in charge of our government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-76493334367992807562008-07-09T08:10:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:10:00.000-07:00By the way, Moses' authority doesn't rest on God i...By the way, Moses' authority doesn't rest on God in a purely intellectual sense, i.e. he was righteous or knew things correctly or some such, but on his contact with Truth itself; with God (as the G. Macdonald fan pointed out.)<BR/><BR/>Thus the difference between the Authority of Moses or an ancient Chinese Emperor and the Islamic Clerics of Iran is so distant as to be not worth discussing.<BR/><BR/>>relurk<Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-45069753185032091712008-07-09T08:07:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:07:00.000-07:00>unlurkLawd. The accuser comes.Out!>lurk>unlurk<<BR/><BR/>Lawd. <BR/><BR/>The accuser comes.<BR/><BR/>Out!<BR/><BR/>>lurk<Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-29655782502666506072008-07-09T08:04:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:04:00.000-07:00Why on earth shouldn't we be annoyed with you, Ray...Why on earth <I>shouldn't</I> we be annoyed with you, Ray? We already know you disagree with the metaphysics. Since you can't get enough attention for that anymore, you try to usurp the conversation to set up whatever your latest strawman argument fixation is, hoping to make us dance to your tune. Van's right - you've gone from being polite and entertaining to being kind of a douche.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24394478938614419752008-07-09T07:00:00.000-07:002008-07-09T07:00:00.000-07:00Yes, of course, Cousin. That's exactly what I've b...Yes, of course, Cousin. That's <I>exactly</I> what I've been saying, and follows perfectly naturally from what I've stated. How perspicacious of you to understand!Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58532385625554208452008-07-09T06:59:00.000-07:002008-07-09T06:59:00.000-07:00Even I can tell whose side Van is on.Even I can tell whose side Van is on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-4289742412982794502008-07-09T06:50:00.000-07:002008-07-09T06:50:00.000-07:00Hal - Not as angry as Van. (But that reminds me of...Hal - Not as angry as Van. (But that reminds me of <A HREF="http://abstrusegoose.com/31" REL="nofollow">this</A>.)Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65533817580751050772008-07-09T06:39:00.000-07:002008-07-09T06:39:00.000-07:00Cuz. High five.Cuz. High five.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-34374146467292196182008-07-09T06:37:00.000-07:002008-07-09T06:37:00.000-07:00We need to close ALL our prisons, because I know f...We need to close ALL our prisons, because I know for a fact that police sometimes pick up the wrong guy. What I mean is that it wasn't even mine. Rather, I was just running it across the street for LaFayette. I had no idea what was in the bag. But as they say, "no good deed goes unpunished."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com