tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post4049072799249661397..comments2024-03-18T21:33:35.309-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: This Post is Only Knowable to the Extent that it Isn'tGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-25645563521235649492010-09-22T09:05:16.970-07:002010-09-22T09:05:16.970-07:00grunt maker said "Van writes that I am asking...grunt maker said "Van writes that I am asking Bob for some kind of absolution. Not so."<br /><br />Not so. I said that the meaning behind what you said, is that you seek (as you continually do through all the various socks that you wear) a prop for determinism, a chain of cause & effect that will leave you out of it, a way out of being responsible for your own thoughts and actions.<br /><br />That's not absolution, it's just being a metaphysical wussie.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-25036249291532255542010-09-22T08:42:45.724-07:002010-09-22T08:42:45.724-07:00Rebuttal to JP and Van:
I contended Bob's uns...Rebuttal to JP and Van:<br /><br />I contended Bob's unsaid motive was fair game for analysis in a post that discusses the very thing.<br /><br />In response JP writes "You got to let Bob be Bob." How does this follow? I am not saying he shouldn't be what he is. I was just describing a motive.<br /><br />Van writes that I am asking Bob for some kind of absolution. Not so.<br /><br />What unsaid assumptions does Bob embody? That is the question on the table. If you won't answer it, fine. Be a pack of wussies.Open Trenchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354412002318534131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71110545965018520212010-09-22T07:29:40.752-07:002010-09-22T07:29:40.752-07:00BTW, my earlier comment has been bugging me, where...BTW, my earlier comment has been bugging me, where I said <br /><br /> " You have to let go, look around, and complete the picture yourself through the inwardly outward Braille method."<br /><br />, I didn't mean with the 'let go' to emphasize anything 'zenny' (though that is in there a little), but that the necessary step is to stop clinging to the particulars you already know, and use your imagination to complete the picture which those particulars have given you a rough sketch of.<br /><br />It's Induction, inference, '<i>Aha?!</i>", and when you insist on clinging to only the bones you've been given, and demand that they breathe on their own... that they <i>give you knowledge</i> so you don't have to go through the effort of reasoning & understanding which is the only thing that knowledge results from... it ain't gonna work. <br /><br />Logic chopping ain't Reasoning. <br /><br />It's like the old saw about the freezing dude huddled before the wood stacked up in the Pot belly stove saying "Give me heat, <i>then</i> I'll strike a match and light you."<br /><br />Solly Charlie... gonna be a cold day inVan Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-76221280512003423062010-09-22T07:14:52.391-07:002010-09-22T07:14:52.391-07:00JP quoted grunt maker:"...t is unsaid in your...JP quoted grunt maker:"...t is unsaid in your post, or what is the keynote of it and other posts, is motive: a f..."<br /><br />The literal translation of grunt maker's text is "...sss...", but the implicit meaning is <br />"go down the path towards proving that the self-evident, isn't. Please show the deterministic proof that I don't have choice, no free will... please free meee!!!"<br /><br />'fraid that's up to you.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-56092922378042046112010-09-22T06:40:27.501-07:002010-09-22T06:40:27.501-07:00GM says:
"You wrote an intricate and beautif...GM says:<br /><br />"You wrote an intricate and beautiful post. I agree with all of your orthoparadoxical statements across the board.<br /><br />What is unsaid in your post, or what is the keynote of it and other posts, is motive: a fundamental drive to provide an intellectual framework for faith in God seems to animate your work."<br /><br />Bob's just being Bob.<br /><br />He writes what he wants to write when he wants to write it.<br /><br />He can't be not-Bob and you can't really ask Bob to be not-Bob.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126071014909954387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-18278232350784724962010-09-22T01:17:53.480-07:002010-09-22T01:17:53.480-07:00"Even when I grok more than I grope (for the ..."Even when I grok more than I grope (for the grog, er..., I mean grope for the grok) and versa vica, I see your gnu words and they make sense in a more vague yet also quite clear sense."<br /><br />Okay, what I was tryin' to say here is this:<br />Often, it's like you read my mind (including parts <br />I haven't depsyphered yet) and put it into words. <br />Which leads to many revelations and revealations from which I prophet from. <br /><br />Of course, there's many times I can't even touch the bottom of the surface but I'm encouraged that I gno it's there and ready when I Am...so to speak. :^)USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-11593530631897696172010-09-22T01:06:55.210-07:002010-09-22T01:06:55.210-07:00"Some or perhaps all readers say or think to ..."Some or perhaps all readers say or think to themselves, "why the made up words? It just makes it more difficult to understand what you're going on about.""<br /><br />Personally, I like the gnu words. Not only do they help explain stuff we don't have words for, but they get me to coontemplate more and ginyouflect. <br />Plus, you can't beat the hewmore factor. Not to mention (so I will) the creativity involved. <br /><br />These words help make OCUG an art form (now with even more substance!). <br />Even when I grok more than I grope (for the grog, er..., I mean grope for the grok) and versa vica, I see your gnu words and they make sense in a more vague yet also quite clear sense.<br /><br />Another good thing about gnu words is that they ain't saturated. Language killers, primarily of the neo-marxist persuasion haven't had a chance to mess them up, ergo: real communication man! without all the hangups of the hippydowners that always makes for such a bad coroad trip.<br /><br />Afterall, we don't need all that acid coroading our trip when we can have a supernatural trip that really does enlighten without all the non-essential (and damaging) idleizing the chem-warfare whoremongers (like Deep-ack!Ack!)are always tryin' to push. <br /><br />Great post, Bob! Thanks!USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-25154656919462612712010-09-21T14:06:47.812-07:002010-09-21T14:06:47.812-07:00Off topic again,
Joseph - if you're still ar...Off topic again, <br /><br />Joseph - if you're still around -<br /><br />Thank you, very much, for the book recommendation. While on the one hand, I was right in saying that I'm familiar with most of the ideas therein and do try to live that way, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Life-Spirit-Conditions-Methods/dp/0813206464" rel="nofollow">Sertillanges</a> has an excellent way of revealing the truth that clears away the dullness of long familiarity and once again awakens the reader to the shine of real insight.<br /><br />Excellent book. Thank you.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58337581599365906342010-09-21T12:05:25.915-07:002010-09-21T12:05:25.915-07:00Off topic but interesting, canine domestication. L...Off topic but interesting, <a href="http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2010/09/how_dogs_got_do.html" rel="nofollow">canine domestication</a>. Lots of interesting implications there.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-68712476608990620672010-09-21T11:52:37.658-07:002010-09-21T11:52:37.658-07:00"As Pieper says, our task is "to grasp t..."As Pieper says, our task is "to grasp those basic assumptions which, remaining unexpressed, nevertheless permeate all that is actually stated; to discover, so to speak, the hidden keynote that dominates whatever has been explicitly said."<br />...For example, there would be no way to understand what I'm writing about by reading only a few essays. Rather, by constant exposure to them, I'm guessing that another reality begins to come into view -- the reality from which the essays flow, i.e., O. <br />...Note therefore a paradox: that is it quite possible to completely understand what is said at the cost of misunderstanding what is unsaid."<br /><br />One reason why experience is always so important, is because the substance is always what it is that is silently agreed that a word refers to... it's something you <i>know</i> it refers to, but if you aren't already <i>able</i> to know it, in a position to come to know it, then the word cannot convey what you don't already have the means to grasp. You may completely understand the parts, and be clueless about the One.<br /><br />In any new concept, to mistake the parts you already know, for what it is your are trying to come to know... will keep you from knowing what you still only wish you knew. You have to let go, look around, and complete the picture yourself through the inwardly outward Braille method.<br /><br />The referents can eventually lead you the point of "Oh, <i>that's</i> what he's talking about!", but they only nudged you into the direction by way of those steps you already knew to, and finally did, take.<br /><br />You can learn by way of "This is a 'square'" (points to a square), or you can learn "I'm going to teach you about a 'Square'. This is a straight line. Take four of these same lines, lay them end to end in such a way that the far end connects back around to the beginning", and you can get to the point that you 'see' the square - but you didn't see it in the lines, only in what the lines led you to conceive, and ?!, you now know what a 'square' is.<br /><br />It's a dangerous concept to get only halfway though, Kant tell you how much mayhem it can cause.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31857210249989246552010-09-21T11:49:38.701-07:002010-09-21T11:49:38.701-07:00"All arguments are either to or from first pr..."All arguments are either to or from first principles. As I've said before, if you want to trip up an atheist, leftist, or radical secularist, just ask them to explain their first principles. You'll usually find that they are either absurd or impossible to take seriously."<br /><br />Been my fav for some while. Truly remarkable how quickly they begin to splutter, dissemble, evade... just generally come apart at the 'seems' - there is no there there.<br /><br />And boy O boy do they ever tend to hate you for that....Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-77294161042067908492010-09-21T10:45:52.623-07:002010-09-21T10:45:52.623-07:00Wow, that's good stuff. Beautifully unsaid.Wow, that's good stuff. Beautifully unsaid.mushroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07651027035577798096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58113643770035602382010-09-21T10:20:30.279-07:002010-09-21T10:20:30.279-07:00Quite simply, Grant, you just do it.
No amount o...Quite simply, Grant, you just do it. <br /><br />No amount of explanation, explication nor description can possibly substitute for giving yourself into God's hands and thus having the experience. In expecting Bob to somehow verbally provide that for you, you are simply making excuses not to just dive in. The water is there, ready and waiting. Are you going to keep asking how warm or deep or wet it is? Jump in and find out.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-87145766667551337502010-09-21T10:11:13.805-07:002010-09-21T10:11:13.805-07:00Hi Bob:
You wrote an intricate and beautiful post...Hi Bob:<br /><br />You wrote an intricate and beautiful post. I agree with all of your orthoparadoxical statements across the board.<br /><br />What is unsaid in your post, or what is the keynote of it and other posts, is motive: a fundamental drive to provide an intellectual framework for faith in God seems to animate your work.<br /><br />Proof, if you will.<br /><br />While I respect this motive I question the utility of it. I doubt if you or your readers require more proof of God. What I think you need/want is more direct contact with a personal God who will talk to you (in the vein of Walsh's "Conversations with God). <br /><br />As smarmy as his materail can seem, Walsh certainly does go for the jugular, accepting God's existence as settled and then moving on to direct contact and the unpacking of personal revelation.<br /><br />It is a tactic that deserves some consideration, I respectfully submit. <br /><br />How else can we individually and collectively push forward, if we don't leave the arena of the orthoparadoxical and go to the starkly defined heart of the matter, which is to know God directly, not tangentially.Open Trenchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354412002318534131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-31491506286596443912010-09-21T09:52:02.330-07:002010-09-21T09:52:02.330-07:00God is everything but everything is not God.
A go...<i>God is everything but everything is not God.</i><br /><br />A good horizontal analogy here is that "The sun is everything, but everything is not the Sun."<br /><br />By which I mean, there is no reason to think that we are distinct from and external to it. We aren't close to the core, but we are still contained well within its rays, and we are most assuredly <i>of</i> it, materially speaking. Even if the base material for this planet came from elsewhere (I'm a bit fuzzy on how exactly our planet was initially formed), it has been infused for so long with Solar radiation that there's no reason to consider it as truly apart. And yet, just as obviously we <i>are</i> apart, and could not possibly be otherwise on pain of being completely consumed and made indistinct from that which is the source of our material being.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3535141917282607922010-09-21T09:33:00.802-07:002010-09-21T09:33:00.802-07:00I'm glad you wrote this one Bob. Well, all of ...I'm glad you wrote this one Bob. Well, all of them, but this one especially. Was able to look at some things from, well, angles I didn't know existed.<br />One being a way to look at God as a creation. Which you can't. Otherwise he would not be God and be a creation. He must <i>be</i> "where creation or created things (creatures) are not necessary". Otherways, he would require a creator to create him.<br />Now I knew the last part. It was the "not-possible" concept of God being one among the creatures that I hadn't considered and appropriately rejected. Sort of similar to your expression that God is everything but everything is not God.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-35103425305495139922010-09-21T09:22:16.145-07:002010-09-21T09:22:16.145-07:00"...the [creature] has no essence, or we woul..."...the [creature] has no essence, or we wouldn't be able to know so much about them. Indeed, we couldn't even recognize or <b>name</b> them.."<br /><br />This reminds of Genesis 2.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-82545055449073868502010-09-21T09:13:08.618-07:002010-09-21T09:13:08.618-07:00Is it true to say that a paradox only exists as on...Is it true to say that a paradox only exists as one to the paradoxed?<br /><br />...because the more I hang around them, the less they seem so.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89130016186854114222010-09-21T09:11:18.984-07:002010-09-21T09:11:18.984-07:00Bob, you sound as giddy as an Eckhart again today....Bob, you sound as giddy as an Eckhart again today.<br />Giddy-UP!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589423819039764711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-75366769237705164662010-09-21T08:55:44.360-07:002010-09-21T08:55:44.360-07:00Polanyi -- yes, exactly.Polanyi -- yes, exactly.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-55155398045134281192010-09-21T08:54:38.232-07:002010-09-21T08:54:38.232-07:00"what is self-evident is not discussed."..."what is self-evident is not discussed."<br /><br />Similar to Polanyi's "tacit knowledge." Perhaps that should be <i>tacet</i> knowledge...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28187515106073399692010-09-21T08:39:38.169-07:002010-09-21T08:39:38.169-07:00"This Post is Only Knowable to the Extent tha..."This Post is Only Knowable to the Extent that it Isn't"<br /><br />I knew that.<br /><br />(sorry, couldn't resist)<br /><br />wv:hawliti<br />yes, only a <i>little</i> bit funnyVan Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.com