tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post3926131734161985997..comments2024-03-27T11:16:36.951-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Thoughts on the Fall of Man: How Low Did We Go? Gagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-32468918397149609182014-03-25T05:55:13.492-07:002014-03-25T05:55:13.492-07:00Hi Bob,
You always have my attention, every day, ...Hi Bob,<br /><br />You always have my attention, every day, even though you often discuss things about which I feel I have little or nothing to add.<br /><br />Chaim Nachman Bialik's recension of the aggadic literature is a landmark of modern Hebrew literature and an excellent way to become acquainted with the lore collected over about a millenium of wide-ranging spiritual discussions.Gandalinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196550750055246901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1797014076761865172014-03-25T05:14:02.566-07:002014-03-25T05:14:02.566-07:00Don't let the Fokkers get you down.Don't let the Fokkers get you down.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13720790978632771716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3660737513717908262014-03-25T05:00:03.668-07:002014-03-25T05:00:03.668-07:00Fascinating post and discussion.
Note to self: st...Fascinating post and discussion. <br />Note to self: stop constructing errports. <br />USS Ben USN (Ret)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07492369604790651538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-8136168043533256642014-03-24T15:54:40.133-07:002014-03-24T15:54:40.133-07:00It certainly is tempting to not blame myself for m...It certainly is tempting to not blame myself for my thoughts. <i>That</i> much I know.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13720790978632771716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-13666604002899859552014-03-24T15:54:10.407-07:002014-03-24T15:54:10.407-07:00Bob @ 3:00, agreed.
Or perhaps another way to thi...Bob @ 3:00, agreed.<br /><br />Or perhaps another way to think of it is the distinction between that which is Caesar's and that which is God's. The two need not be mutually exclusive; rather, ideally, they would be complementary. But while we're in the world, it is our actions which matter to those around us, since our actions are the only way we can be known.<br /><br />And while we're playing the parable game, there's the one about the two sons, the one who said "I won't," but then did, and the one who said "I will," but then didn't. In that case, clearly the actions took precedence.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-61249867513089025252014-03-24T15:43:34.379-07:002014-03-24T15:43:34.379-07:00Gandalin:
While I have your attention, the Book o...Gandalin:<br /><br />While I have your attention, the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805241132/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1M0Z9KRTC1IB&coliid=IVX8DVKHB99CV" rel="nofollow">Book of Legends/Sefer Ha-Aggadah: Legends from the Talmud and Midrash</a> certainly appears worth having, no? Looks like an endless source of wisdom, but I don't know enough. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-17055592820987363372014-03-24T15:38:29.985-07:002014-03-24T15:38:29.985-07:00Hi Bob
I think you are exactly right about that.Hi Bob<br /><br />I think you are exactly right about that.Gandalinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196550750055246901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-11348230114431520042014-03-24T15:00:30.585-07:002014-03-24T15:00:30.585-07:00So, just having the thoughts fly through your head...So, just having the thoughts fly through your headspace isn't blameworthy, but, -- as I think I said in the book -- building a giant airport and landing strip for them is. Blameworthy, I mean.<br />Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-56596250281764303402014-03-24T14:56:34.605-07:002014-03-24T14:56:34.605-07:00Maybe it's fair to say that one can't stop...Maybe it's fair to say that one can't stop the thoughts, but one doesn't have to indulge them or make a home for them. That's again where the will comes in. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-20534615046339573202014-03-24T14:13:55.055-07:002014-03-24T14:13:55.055-07:00The Buddhists take the issue of thought the furthe...The Buddhists take the issue of thought the furthest, as all impressions of the mind have influence. I believe this to be true especially in the subtleties (I can do a nice gesture for someone with an agitated face). Also, the will can take us only so far. When pushed far enough in a stressful situation, it's what is going on internally that is going to be exposed externally.tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354048695798015131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-74774032134014121522014-03-24T14:08:02.002-07:002014-03-24T14:08:02.002-07:00Hi Bob,
This is an interesting discussion.
Withi...Hi Bob,<br /><br />This is an interesting discussion.<br /><br />Within the Jewish tradition, it is quite clear from the Prophets, that even the most exacting fulfillment of the commandments is not sufficient unless that fulfillment is infused with the proper intention, the proper spirit as it were. Performance of the commandments, as specified, is a a necessary but not sufficient standard. As Jesus said, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."<br /><br />Jesus goes on to extend the physical performance of the commandments to include very strict teachings on thoughts, feelings, and attitudes: "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." And further, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." <br /><br />This is the work of "building a fence around the Law," which occupied Jesus's rabbinic colleagues for many centuries before and since.<br /><br />As for having "evil thoughts," and whether we should be condemned for having them, there are different modes of practice that appear quite similarly in a number of different traditions.<br /><br />When an "evil thought" arises in the mind, there are some who teach that we should fight it, some who teach that we should transform it, and some who teach that we should ignore it and move on. I think you will find teachers of all these ways within the Jewish tradition. <br /><br />There is no question in my mind, however, that the consequences of actions in the world are of more concern in the Jewish tradition than the consequences of "mere" thoughts - or dreams. But as a (Jewish) poet wrote, in dreams begin responsibilities, and thoughts often lead to actions.Gandalinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196550750055246901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-91530617491239955892014-03-24T11:56:46.416-07:002014-03-24T11:56:46.416-07:00Yes, maybe western civilization isn't such a h...Yes, maybe western civilization isn't such a horrible thing after all. I'm sure academia will adjust itself accordingly. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-4102183522175580572014-03-24T11:49:58.410-07:002014-03-24T11:49:58.410-07:00On a side note: Robert Barron's series on Cath...On a side note: Robert Barron's series on Catholicism is amazing! Watched slowly over the last few weeks, and it is worth the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Catholicism-DVD-Box-Robert-Barron/dp/B005J6U77Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1395686902&sr=1-1&keywords=robert+barron" rel="nofollow">price of admission</a>.tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354048695798015131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-68158882280588543082014-03-24T11:27:47.715-07:002014-03-24T11:27:47.715-07:00Re. peer pressure, yes, just so.
And thanks for l...Re. peer pressure, yes, just so.<br /><br />And thanks for linking the Barron article; it bangs a gong.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24319408778636934142014-03-24T11:16:38.817-07:002014-03-24T11:16:38.817-07:00I think peer pressure can be important. Once they...I think peer pressure can be important. Once they enter that social world, no kid wants to be the last to be using a diaper, or tie his shoes, or whatever. It's powerful inducement both for better and worse. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-30772820962355332802014-03-24T11:10:28.286-07:002014-03-24T11:10:28.286-07:00*sigh*
We've tried the sitting on the toilet...*sigh* <br /><br />We've tried the sitting on the toilet for a couple of hours with promises of rewards method. Essentially, there is so far no reward too enticing, and no penalty (that I'm <i>willing</i> to exact; there are days when I fully empathize with my grandmother's practice of making her kids cut their own stick to be beaten with, even though I know how well that worked out for all involved) too great to make him poop on the toilet. <br /><br />It occurred to me that part of the problem is that with this kid, somehow his thinking on the matter of pooping has to be changed; then and only then will the behavior follow. Unfortunately, I've been (and will of course continue) doing all that it is in my power to do from the outside. The rest has to come from his own mind. Preferably before he becomes a playground pariah.<br /><br />Re. picky eating, so far we've been able to avoid the food wars, but I suspect that's just a matter of time...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-80531431402018635472014-03-24T10:56:25.008-07:002014-03-24T10:56:25.008-07:00He's that way now with food. Very willfully p...He's that way now with food. Very willfully picky eater. No idea why. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-81581385511953746182014-03-24T10:49:25.279-07:002014-03-24T10:49:25.279-07:00About the latter, that was Freud's point about...About the latter, that was Freud's point about the anal stage of development. Take it literally or figuratively, but really is a battle of wills over who owns and controls the body, with all sorts of implications. <br /><br />We tried to let nature take its course with Tristan, but eventually Leslie had to drop the hammer. I remember him sitting on the pot for a couple of hours, in tears, insisting that it was impossible. That is an example of where female strength and stamina exceeds men, because I would have caved. She bribed him with a trip to Toys R Us, so it all worked out in the end... so to speak.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-32621098603201567682014-03-24T10:30:31.295-07:002014-03-24T10:30:31.295-07:00Or here's a more ordinary situation, which I&#...Or here's a more ordinary situation, which I've been struggling with for a while now: potty training.<br /><br />I had never appreciated just how much a battle of wills it is, and how much an exercise in self-mastery on the part of both the parent and the child; actually, far more on the part of the parent than the child. But it is almost purely a matter of thoughts and perception, and it almost inevitably spills out into other areas of life and behavior.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-77451599999618759162014-03-24T10:22:53.202-07:002014-03-24T10:22:53.202-07:00Fair enough, and of course he's absolutely cor...Fair enough, and of course he's absolutely correct about mastering evil impulses. <br /><br />But even the law recognizes the importance of thought - for instance, in the distinction between "murder" and "kill". One is a grave evil, the other is more like a terrible consequence.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-22542299078539856532014-03-24T10:12:11.592-07:002014-03-24T10:12:11.592-07:00I suppose we could say that to be human is to have...I suppose we could say that to be human is to have a fractured will at odds with itself, if only because different levels of consciousness have different agendas. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24907135874445978752014-03-24T10:10:33.988-07:002014-03-24T10:10:33.988-07:00The left treats the conscience like a foreign inva...The left treats the conscience like a foreign invader, a mind parasite. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-83813214447694469562014-03-24T10:09:37.488-07:002014-03-24T10:09:37.488-07:00Prager is preoccupied with human evil. If people ...Prager is preoccupied with human evil. If people only mastered their lower or evil impulses, this would be close to paradise, even if the impulses remain. It's good to value self-mastery and self-domination, because it is a way of honoring the higher. But the left honors self-expression instead of self-mastery, and we can see where that leads. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-70011455147613764842014-03-24T10:06:28.162-07:002014-03-24T10:06:28.162-07:00And granted, I do agree that in our interactions w...And granted, I do agree that in our interactions with the world, he's correct as far as that goes. I just don't think it goes very far. Whitewashed tombstones come to mind...juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-78226159108162957832014-03-24T10:05:11.607-07:002014-03-24T10:05:11.607-07:00Then why pray?Then why pray?juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.com