tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post3562683084130724288..comments2024-03-27T11:16:36.951-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Between God and ReligionGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-55383820158413683662016-10-11T12:41:03.704-07:002016-10-11T12:41:03.704-07:00Great discussion Bob & William. Just to add so...Great discussion Bob & William. Just to add some grist to the mill, the thing about mystical states that you get into is that the states are real and they have their own characteristics, but they are influenced by the ideas that you have in mind about what the ultimate state is like and what you should experience. These are the ideas that you carry into the state, and when you come out of the state these ideas are what you first see. So both Advaitins and Christian mystics are probably right about their experience, and there may be more than one ontological stream to the cosmos! tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07354048695798015131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-82991456270031373492016-10-10T08:53:49.319-07:002016-10-10T08:53:49.319-07:00Sorry, I don't want to take up your time! Ther...Sorry, I don't want to take up your time! There's no need to respond. You know, I think we probably agree at bottom. it's just the old problem of trying to express the inexpressible.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-28107115963719353702016-10-10T08:48:32.137-07:002016-10-10T08:48:32.137-07:00I'll have to respond later.... attempting to g...I'll have to respond later.... attempting to give birth to a post, and it's a difficult delivery.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-22620343642271532342016-10-10T08:46:27.212-07:002016-10-10T08:46:27.212-07:00You say, Bob. 'Let's just put it this way:...You say, Bob. 'Let's just put it this way: there is no doubt that the experience described by advaitins is attainable by man, and that it is a religious experience. But there is no reason to call it the "ultimate experience." '<br /><br />But the thing is advaitins, following Sankara, do think that what they are describing is the ultimate. And they wouldn't call it an experience. They would say any experience is still part of duality and they would also say that Christianity is part of duality and therefore still rooted in ignorance. So from the point of view of advaita Christianity would always be inferior to it. I'm sure there is a state in which everything is experienced as one with no division and no centre anywhere. But I think this entry into the undifferentiated ground of being is a lesser state than the union in love with God described by some Christian mystics, though there are certain similarities. But the differences are crucial. And the main one is that in the highest Christian state individuality is preserved. That is not the case in advaita which thinks itself the highest realisation but is, in my opinion, a lesser understanding because it doesn't see that unity and multiplicity are both true. Christians would say that God created the world and saw that it was good. Advaitins don't really believe in God, creation or even goodness! That’s a pretty fundamental difference.<br /><br />I can see why people might think you can reconcile advaita and Christianity because there is oneness at the bottom of both of them but it is a very different sort of oneness, if you can say such a thing, because the oneness of advaita allows for no differenntiation at all in ultimate reality which is exactly what the Trinity and Christianity does allow.<br />William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-73280763710752930302016-10-10T08:22:03.499-07:002016-10-10T08:22:03.499-07:00What I wrote back in 2008:
In the end, the Monk m...What I wrote back in 2008:<br /><br />In the end, the Monk makes only the claim that Orthodox Christianity and the classic Vedanta of Shankara are <i>not incompatible</i>, as opposed to being identical. For example, Meister Eckhart, according to no less an authority than Vladimir Lossky, expresses "a vision of the unity of being which is not pantheistic monism, but rather a Christian 'non-dualism,' appropriate to the idea of the world created ex nihilo by the all-powerful God of the Bible -- 'He who is.'" In other words, at the very least, Christianity is capacious enough to formulate a doctrine of non-dualism in its own terms. <br /><br />The Monk cites the authority of St Thomas, who taught that "integral doctrine is not circumscribed within the limits of 'what is written,' but that by reason of its excellence, not only is Christ's teaching not totally contained in the written accounts, but cannot be so contained." <br /><br />.... The Monk also cites a declaration from the Secretariat for Non-Christians, who wrote that Christians are to "refrain from a priori rejecting as necessarily and wholly monist and non-Christian, the ideal of identification with the Absolute which dominates Indian spirituality" (i.e., tat tvam asi, or "thou art That," which is to say, Atman and Brahman are not-two).<br /><br />In fact, the Monk goes into considerable detail explaining how Indian mysticism has historically been confused with pantheism or simple monism in order to dismiss it, when it is anything but. To the contrary, there may be no metaphysical doctrine that is more explicit about avoiding the conflation of world and God.<br /><br />Elsewhere he refers to an encyclical by John Paul II, who wrote that "the strength of belief on the part of members of non-Christian religions -- this too, the effect of the Spirit of Truth operating beyond the visible frontiers of the visible Mystical Body -- should shame those Christians so often brought to doubt truths revealed by God and announced by the Church."<br /><br />.... Finally, the Monk again cites St. Thomas, who wrote that "the power of a Divine Person is infinite and cannot itself be limited by any created thing. Hence it may not be said that a Divine Person so assumed one human nature as to be unable to assume another." Naturally this cannot mean that there could be a "plurality of unique sons." But what can it mean then? <br /><br />In the preface to the book, Alvin Moore describes Christianity at its core as "a bhaktic esoterism," while in common practice it is "an exoteric religion of love," thereby accessible to "a considerable sector or mankind." He goes on to say that since only God can truly know God, to know God is to "become him." Or, if that doesn't sound quite right, our knowledge of God "is God's knowledge of Himself through man as instrument," a formulation that might well have come from the pen of Meister Eckhart.<br />Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-5051850610124346132016-10-10T08:11:45.779-07:002016-10-10T08:11:45.779-07:00I have a book called Christianity and the Doctrine...I have a book called Christianity and the Doctrine of Non-Dualism, by "A Monk of the West." Looks like I bought it in January 2008, so I probably wrote about it back then. Let's see what the concluding chapter says.<br /><br />His bottom line: "not incompatible with with our full and complete faith in the Christian Revelation." Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-83749219672502537922016-10-10T08:04:39.730-07:002016-10-10T08:04:39.730-07:00--By the way, I hope you don’t think I’m having a ...--By the way, I hope you don’t think I’m having a go at you in this comment. <br /><br />Perish the thought. I welcome criticism, up to and including trolls, who provide so much fodder for insultainment.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-10569416108503467582016-10-10T08:02:15.728-07:002016-10-10T08:02:15.728-07:00--I seem to recall that you once wrote that you u...--I seem to recall that you once wrote that you used to think that Ramanuja was a degeneration from Shankara, but now considered him an evolution to a higher understanding.<br /><br />That is correct. Also, I am not arguing for a mixture or a hybrid religion that does violence to both. However, if God is both one and three, then it is possible to over-emphasize the one to the exclusion of the three, which it seems to me is what non-dualism does. Indeed, there are certain Christian mystics who sound more like advaitins than trinitarians. <br /><br />Let's just put it this way: there is not doubt that the experience described by advaitins is attainable by man, and that it is a religious experience. But there is no reason to call it the "ultimate experience." <br /><br />I just read an old note to mysoph this morning: "Never make a God of your religion. Worse yet, your irreligion."Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-39356471050951815592016-10-10T07:16:04.317-07:002016-10-10T07:16:04.317-07:00Going back to the topic of the post if I may, I re...Going back to the topic of the post if I may, I really don’t see how you can square Christianity with advaita Vedanta and keep the integrity of both. That is, square Christianity with advaita as it really is not as it is in the romantic interpretations of Christians who want to mix it with their Christianity and keep the best of both worlds. The problem is you can’t do that with advaita since it absorbs and relegates to the relative plane anything you try to reconcile to it. Your Christianity will become just a provisional thing to be transcended when you are wiser. Fundamentally it’s part of the world of maya.<br /><br />The fact is that advaita denies the reality of the individual soul and of God in any real and personal sense. You can’t escape that. There are various mental contortions by advaitins that seek to have their cake and eat it, usually something along the neither real nor unreal line, but, when all is said and done, advaita is exclusively monistic and does not allow any true existence to creation or anything in it. Hence to be intellectually consistent you cannot follow advaita and believe that God is love. Love requires duality. Even if there is a oneness underlying it, for love to be real duality has also to be real.<br /><br />That’s why Ramanuja rejected Sankara’s one-sided and highly selective interpretation of the Upanishads. Reality is far subtler and more wonderful than the simplistic version of it propounded by Sankara who seems to me to have been primarily an intellectual motivated by the attempt to defend the Vedas against Buddhism. He therefore incorporated bits of Buddhism into his system, the better to fight it. I really don’t think that people like Swami Abhishiktananda, and probably Schuon too, understood what advaita is actually saying. Seduced by the apparent profundity of its non-negotiable doctrine of oneness they just sought to blend it into views they already had, not appreciating that if you took it on its own terms it just demolished these, rejecting anything else as a half way house to be left behind once true knowledge dawned. The Trinity cannot be reconciled to advaita. It is precisely what saves us from the illusion of advaita! <br /><br />I seem to recall that you once wrote that you used to think that Ramanuja was a degeneration from Shankara, but now considered him an evolution to a higher understanding. I think that’s right. By the way, I hope you don’t think I’m having a go at you in this comment. I’ve got the greatest respect for your insights and have learnt a lot from your posts. I just don’t agree with you on this point! For me now advaita is not that different to atheism.<br /><br /><br />William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-15160445133104099452016-10-09T22:00:00.756-07:002016-10-09T22:00:00.756-07:00No planet for Donald Trump!No planet for Donald Trump!Joseph Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-30221750529395619892016-10-09T21:53:57.175-07:002016-10-09T21:53:57.175-07:00What oozes from this audio is evil. We hear a marr...<i>What oozes from this audio is evil. We hear a married man give smooth, smug and self-congratulatory permission to his intense impulses, allowing them to outweigh the most modest sense of decency, fidelity and commitment. And although it speaks volumes about sexual morality, it goes to the heart of all ethical behavior. Trump’s banter belies a willingness to use and discard other human beings at will. That characteristic is the essence of a despot.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865664336/In-our-opinion-Donald-Trump-should-resign-his-candidacy.html?pg=all" rel="nofollow">From The Desert News!</a>. Guess those Mormons have sold out to the left.<br /><br />Better spin up more of those feeble justifications. Or you could, you know, change your mind like an increasing fraction of the completely insane wing of the Republican party is starting to do.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-13271076248261917002016-10-09T10:57:18.762-07:002016-10-09T10:57:18.762-07:00Trump as Commander in Chief, Putin deals.
Hillary?...Trump as Commander in Chief, Putin deals.<br />Hillary? As I speak, Russia is preparing for nuclear war- which they can survive.<br /><br />Sometimes nuclear physics should be factored into the metaphysics.nealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10632021240126981592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-52771530606915955682016-10-09T09:30:27.290-07:002016-10-09T09:30:27.290-07:00Speaking of the absence of a cosmic perspective, 3...Speaking of the absence of a cosmic perspective, <a href="http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29307/" rel="nofollow">35 well-intentioned things you can't say on campus</a>. It is literally impossible to imagine the smallness of such minds. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-16570149614983629782016-10-09T08:52:36.969-07:002016-10-09T08:52:36.969-07:00Yep. What we're really voting for in this elec...Yep. What we're really voting for in this election, ultimately, is whether we want to be Germany (or worse, Venezuela) or America.<br /><br />I know which one I want.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-89411796944730230672016-10-09T08:50:00.379-07:002016-10-09T08:50:00.379-07:00As someone said, the less politicians control, the...As someone said, the less politicians control, the less it matters who controls the politicians. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-61909013124365686362016-10-09T08:49:01.484-07:002016-10-09T08:49:01.484-07:00Yes, we're not voting for pope or king or even...Yes, we're not voting for pope or king or even "leader of the country" (conservatives don't need leaders), just the executive of the freaking federal government. It shouldn't even matter nearly as much as it does, but the reason it matters is because of the vast, illegitimate expansion of government. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-81237773846352835662016-10-09T08:40:58.772-07:002016-10-09T08:40:58.772-07:00Ha - yes.
Ten years ago, before I stumbled across...Ha - yes.<br /><br />Ten years ago, before I stumbled across this blog - in hindsight, surely a coonspiracy - I was pretty much an atheist. I said, did, and thought about things that today just make me shake my head. I wasn't an awful person, I don't think, but could well have become one. Some of the things I thought about doing would surely have led me down a dark and troubled path.<br /><br />A <i>lot</i> happens in ten years. Even in one.<br /><br />I don't think Trump is the same person today that he was even a few months ago, before he started his daily run of campaign stops around the country. I <i>hope</i> he is a better person in many ways.<br /><br />But at the same time, it doesn't really matter all that much; even if he is exactly the same man he was ten years ago, he'd be a better president than Clinton.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-67982365213022331072016-10-09T08:27:52.162-07:002016-10-09T08:27:52.162-07:00Trump should just just paraphrase Paul and admit t...Trump should just just paraphrase Paul and admit that "When I was a liberal, I spoke as a liberal, I understood as a liberal, I thought as liberal." Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-21836507024667700772016-10-09T08:24:03.515-07:002016-10-09T08:24:03.515-07:00Exactly. I noticed yesterday people were even harr...Exactly. I noticed yesterday people were even harrumphing because in his apology he called all of this "a distraction." Well, it is.<br /><br />If we were paying attention to things that are really important and relevant to <i>today</i>, we'd hardly be talking about Trump at all.juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-43092887677506087752016-10-09T08:15:34.900-07:002016-10-09T08:15:34.900-07:00Objects in mirror may appear smaller due to media ...<a href="https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/245871/" rel="nofollow">Objects in mirror</a> may appear smaller due to media obsession with dirty talk. Which is the whole point.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-60618825722401821422016-10-09T06:17:59.844-07:002016-10-09T06:17:59.844-07:00Our choices are Han Solo or Gollum.
And we're ...Our choices are Han Solo or Gollum.<br />And we're being invaded.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12994306709948231112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-53123063070169912232016-10-09T04:45:05.001-07:002016-10-09T04:45:05.001-07:00:D
It's been a while since I've had to typ...:D<br />It's been a while since I've had to type with a sleepy baby on one arm. Sweet age. It's good to hear from you! juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975754287030568726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-71091169348198047472016-10-09T04:41:14.701-07:002016-10-09T04:41:14.701-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dougmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16376833358762656823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-76559759630533977842016-10-08T23:11:18.817-07:002016-10-08T23:11:18.817-07:00A quick drop-in from Elephant/Anna... This discus...A quick drop-in from Elephant/Anna... This discussion is so refreshing! Thank you.<br />I second GB @ 5:59pm and 6:23pm and Julie @ 6:49pm. <br /><br /><br />"no one looks at things from a cosmic perspective, so trivial things appear huge while massive objects are rendered invisible" <br /><br />This was a tonic -- not just re. the presidential race but re. life. Typing with one hand while holding a tired one-year old so must go... <br /><br />Shall try to keep tuned to good sense here as the elections approach. Thank you!!Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900344453710081874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3871608474764859032016-10-08T19:14:46.263-07:002016-10-08T19:14:46.263-07:00White males are the only voting bloc with the good...White males are the only voting bloc with the good sense to not vote for Nurse Ratched. Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00911613613759942690noreply@blogger.com