tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post1809183650043662003..comments2024-03-28T20:04:20.286-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: On Keeping Faith Alive: The Intellect Doesn't SlumpGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-87068534685884018602008-08-07T11:43:00.000-07:002008-08-07T11:43:00.000-07:00Um, Ximeze, that's not what I said. The theories s...Um, Ximeze, that's not what I said. The theories seem a lot more revealing about the theorizers than the theorized, that's all.<BR/><BR/>For now, y'all have beaten down with sheer numbers. I've got things to do, no more time to respond today. Enjoy the break!Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-84766698961901941862008-08-07T09:35:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:35:00.000-07:00Ooh la la! The lady raccoons were cooking on this ...Ooh la la! The lady raccoons were cooking on this post!Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-270074820356791702008-08-07T09:34:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:34:00.000-07:00Ray, hint: You can't take it with you. If you ...Ray, hint: You can't take it with you. If you can't take it with you, it probably doesn't matter. <BR/><BR/>Like a kid playing monopoly, and 'winning' while being insufferable, pouty and even cheating, trying to gather up all his hotels, cards, money and piece (probably the top hat) after the game is over to take home and show them to Mom & Dad. It all stays with the game, and Mom & Dad wouldn't likely be too impressed with the worthless stuff anyway. They're not even gonna be too impressed that little Johnny wound up getting sent to jail without passing GO, over and over again, while Billy kept winning the community pot.<BR/><BR/>But they're gonna have a few things to say about how he played the game. <BR/><BR/>You don't take your stuff, you don't take your body, no matter the condition. You don't even take your skills, thrills or hopes. The only thing you take with you is the learning you got from the game. Note: not what you learned ('Don't add houses if coming up on 'Go to Jail', buy up property whenever possible'), but the learning that sinks to the soul - if any.<BR/><BR/>Win or lose - if you Value the wrong things, or learn the wrong lessons, you might as well have not played at all.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-45334199758148874582008-08-07T09:28:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:28:00.000-07:00"As usual, it's interesting to read the varied the..."As usual, it's interesting to read the varied theories about my motivations."<BR/><BR/>Ray declares he finds it interesting to read about himself. <BR/><BR/>Big suprise to all no doubt.<BR/><BR/>Get over yourself Asshat, not everyone here is interested in you or your motivations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-47588577531017268432008-08-07T09:24:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:24:00.000-07:00Either:There is a world I've created in my mind, a...Either:<BR/><BR/>There is a world I've created in my mind, and everything I read, experience and digest absolutely must conform to the world in my head. Even if I have to pivot and contort the whole Cosmos until it looks like the Obama campaign. The world must conform until it finds its rightful place in my mind.<BR/><BR/>or:<BR/><BR/>There is a Mind that has created my world: everything I see, read, and experience in the material. I must find out everything about that mind in order to understand my world and my place in it.Joan of Argghh!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14729682908266300507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-90145773470050544782008-08-07T09:22:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:22:00.000-07:00Oops, that's Susannah, not her Theology Guy. :) ...Oops, that's Susannah, not her Theology Guy. :) I'd never presume to speak for him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-40172079232742884072008-08-07T09:21:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:21:00.000-07:00"I do not see a lot of evidence that any Gods are ..."I do not see a lot of evidence that any Gods are out there fulfilling these duties in any significant way."<BR/><BR/>Where do you suppose your concept of moral obligation and duty come from, Ray? Matter? <BR/><BR/>It's we who are obliged to Him, not the other way around. But we just don't like to admit that, do we? We made this mess, and we deserve to burn in hell for it. That He's made a way for us to be allowed right into his glory, rather than destroyed by it, is MERCY. Starkly put, I know, but it's the truth. <BR/><BR/>And BTW, who is it that builds orphanages in the shadow of volcanoes? God? Hello. Volcanoes do eventually erupt. Maybe Jonah Goldberg is prescient about that volcano-lancing technology, but until that time....<BR/><BR/>Jesus said to the disciples re: a disaster (Tower of Siloam): "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."<BR/><BR/>Of course, in order to repent, you have to recognize your need to do so. That's the real stumbling block here, I think.DCoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440397302604841862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-19510441977575803202008-08-07T09:01:00.000-07:002008-08-07T09:01:00.000-07:00In reply to Ray:God doesn't have any responsibilit...In reply to Ray:<BR/><BR/>God doesn't have any responsibilities, because It is beholden only to Itself. We are It, so there is no actual relationship between people and God. There is no code of conduct needed in the closed system which is God.<BR/><BR/>You, Ray Ingles, are a piece of God complaining about Itself. Why IT amuses itself this way is the enigma. Of course on some level we are already privy to the answer but just can't recall it at the moment. Freaky, eh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-53941469795523544152008-08-07T08:58:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:58:00.000-07:00"I can see where God might permit a drunk driver t..."<EM>I can see where God might permit a drunk driver to harm themselves, but in light of the above, why should God permit a drunk driver to kill innocent families?</EM>"<BR/><BR/>Er, Job? Oldest damn book in the scripture? Er, uh, oh, "I know that my redeemer liveth"? <BR/><BR/>This life ain't all there is, Buddy.Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-46057357141079614202008-08-07T08:57:00.001-07:002008-08-07T08:57:00.001-07:00Ole! Petey!<I>Ole!</I> Petey!Joan of Argghh!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14729682908266300507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-90411986030534367002008-08-07T08:57:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:57:00.000-07:00Oh, and Maineman - Delusions, by their nature, con...Oh, and Maineman - <I>Delusions, by their nature, conflict with reality and therefore cannot be useful.</I><BR/><BR/>Not true. Wilson (whose book I've mentioned before) makes the useful distinction between "factual realism" and "practical realism" <A HREF="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/atheism-as-a-stealth-reli_b_76901.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. (Go ahead, you'll like that article. It actually makes a point y'all like to make here.)Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65010009457515887602008-08-07T08:56:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:56:00.000-07:00Reminds me of how one goes bankrupt, either financ...Reminds me of how one goes bankrupt, either financially or spiritually:<BR/><BR/>"Very gradually, then all of a sudden."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-57168508541745199872008-08-07T08:55:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:55:00.000-07:00Ray - Read Christ the Eternal Tao. Eastern Monks w...Ray - Read <EM>Christ the Eternal Tao</EM>. Eastern Monks work the body, and Western the mind - Damascene gives you the full work out.<BR/><BR/>As for the quote, I can't argue against it because to argue against it would be to assume certain positions which are in and of themselves entirely false. The ownership of the universe itself is pointless as a legal matter. <BR/><BR/>Also take note of the similarity between their notion of 'God is the biggest bully..' to Satan's notion of God. They are the same. <EM>HINT ENOUGH FOR YOU?</EM>Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-69924577240614828052008-08-07T08:50:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:50:00.000-07:00Ray - And the more you harden your heart in your p...Ray - And the more you harden your heart in your personal rebellion against your Creator, the less likely that may become. Take care.NoMohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01100042056270224683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-34405451733869848962008-08-07T08:48:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:48:00.000-07:00It's almost the top of the hour, Ray.You don't wan...It's almost the top of the hour, Ray.<BR/><BR/>You don't wanna miss "Jeopardy", do you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-2680959553509645242008-08-07T08:43:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:43:00.000-07:00Susannah - ...the mere fact that he exists means y...Susannah - <I>...the mere fact that he exists means you are HIS PROPERTY and really have no right to question him...</I><BR/><BR/>Another quote from the website:<BR/><BR/>Second, by what authority is God declared to be owner of the universe? Because It <I>created</I> the universe? Well, on what authority does the principle that 'the creator of something owns it' rest? How is that justified? We're back to the Euthyphro Problem. If it's because God says so, we don't have any real authority at all beyond raw power, and God's just the biggest bully around.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if some things just <I>are</I> good, and God is supposed to perfectly conform to these things, then there's no conceivable way God could escape the traditional responsibilities that parents have. If God had created a universe with no sentient beings in it, then It would have the right to do whatever It wanted with that universe. But allegedly God created a universe with people in it, and that would mean God owes us Its care.<BR/><BR/>Re: the responsibilities of parents:<BR/><BR/>I took a very large part in the creation of my children (though obviously my wife did more of the work). That doesn't give me carte blanche to do with them as I like, though - indeed, it actually places significant obligations and responsibilities on me. I have to raise them, care for them, teach them, comfort them, discipline them, until they can care for themselves. I mostly enjoy these jobs because I love my children, but even if I didn't I'd still owe them my support.<BR/><BR/>Even if someone didn't voluntarily undertake the work of creating a child (e.g. a father who used a broken condom, or a mother who was raped) they still are obligated to support the child. At bare minimum, they must find someone else willing to care for them. (We find it understandable if a woman gives a child born of rape up for adoption, but even in that case abandoning a child in a dumpster is not acceptable.) And if the caretakers they select for the child prove to be unsuitable, most people would agree they have a responsibility to intervene. (Indeed, above I stated that <I>anyone</I> has a responsibility to intervene when they become aware of child abuse.)<BR/><BR/>Even the authority of disciplining children is not unlimited. I have spanked my older sons when they did something both (a) unsafe, and (b) that I have told them not to do. But I can't just spank my children every hour because I feel like it, and I can't morally hand out disproportionate punishments. Our youngest son is, at the moment, only a few months old and quite incapable of doing something worthy of punishment.<BR/><BR/>God allegedly chose to create sentient beings. That doesn't give It unlimited rights to do whatever It wants with them. It gives It <I>substantial duties and responsibilities</I> toward those beings. These responsibilities include passive duties (e.g. not dropping lava on orphanages) and active ones (e.g. preventing child abuse). I do not see a lot of evidence that any Gods are out there fulfilling these duties in any significant way.<BR/><BR/>And, elsewhere:<BR/><BR/>There are cases where one could argue that God needn't intervene - if someone's stupid enough to take dangerous drugs, when they should know better, perhaps. I might allow my children to break some of their toys to learn how to take proper care of things. But I won't knowingly allow one child to break <I>another</I> child's toys. I can see where God might permit a drunk driver to harm themselves, but in light of the above, why should God permit a drunk driver to kill innocent families?Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-2777157476319298032008-08-07T08:32:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:32:00.000-07:00Ray, It is the Christian conviction that God is co...Ray, It is the Christian conviction that God is completely beyond our understanding entirely, unknowable. It however is also, paradoxically, the Christian conviction that Jesus Christ is the express image and likeness of that God, i.e. "When you see me, you see the Father." <BR/><BR/>This paradox is not resolvable, but you can have a hand at it if you wish. But the Creed establishes the rules for what statements you may not make about it in your attempt. Firstly you may not say that the immanent God is different than the transcendent God, and secondly you may not state that Christ is not God. <BR/><BR/>You can find the rules by looking up the Nicene Creed (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) <BR/><BR/>If you want to argue with something, argue with that and stop biting defenseless sheep. <BR/><BR/>I must warn you, though, Michael's sword is sharp, and he's out of bubblegum.Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-40434970935253138972008-08-07T08:30:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:30:00.000-07:00Poor Tin Man!I still don't want to live in your Ka...Poor Tin Man!<BR/><BR/>I still don't want to live in <I>your</I> Kansas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-91604365753881859942008-08-07T08:25:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:25:00.000-07:00As usual, it's interesting to read the varied ...As usual, it's interesting to read the varied theories about my motivations. Still haven't been "pierced to the heart", though. :->Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-14885061851439502222008-08-07T08:19:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:19:00.000-07:00Kepler & Anon 12:39 - Let's quote somethin...Kepler & Anon 12:39 - Let's quote something else from my website:<BR/><BR/>Do you <I>really</I> want to assert that God is totally beyond human conception? That means you can't be sure of <I>anything</I> about it - anything at all.<BR/><BR/>What if there is some kind of God (or gods), and It's <I>exactly</I> like a shepherd... down to the shearing and slaughter, too? (I'm sure sheep feel comforted by the presence of the shepherd... until the knife comes down.) If a God is totally beyond anything we can understand, there's no way to disprove this. By definition, It's perfectly capable of fooling us perfectly. There's <I>no way</I> to tell.<BR/><BR/>If you try to claim that you have evidence that a god is trustworthy and benevolent... hey, wait, I thought evidence wasn't appropriate here? If you want to appeal to evidence, then you <I>can't</I> claim that evidence is totally irrelevant. You have to deal with <I>all</I> the evidence.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-81726862881313283482008-08-07T08:12:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:12:00.000-07:00Warren, LOL! I think you nailed it (uhhh, heh).Warren, LOL! I think you nailed it (uhhh, heh).Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-56936466415496443392008-08-07T08:09:00.001-07:002008-08-07T08:09:00.001-07:00The reason both you (and he) cannot stop writing a...The reason both you (and he) cannot stop writing about God is because you are made in His image.<BR/><BR/>Deep calls out to deep.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-69825022815219403852008-08-07T08:09:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:09:00.000-07:00"So when athiests and agnostics whine about the "p..."So when athiests and agnostics whine about the "problem of evil," I see it more as an attempt to categorize and trivialize our sins against God"<BR/><BR/>Yes, the entire athiest project is really just an attempt to trivialize the idea of sin - especially sexual sin - so that they can shtup whomever they want without feeling guilt. All their fine philosophical rhetoric, scientific doctrines, etc, are in service to that end. (Some atheists are even aware of this.) <BR/><BR/>It's the little head trying to do the job of the big head.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13623170987747998335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-7721485115620651682008-08-07T08:08:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:08:00.000-07:00Ray, are you seriously down in the gravel nit-pick...Ray, are you seriously down in the gravel nit-picking again, instead of looking sky-ward?Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-90149268457354966022008-08-07T08:03:00.000-07:002008-08-07T08:03:00.000-07:00Dupree, Julie - How should I read the passage I qu...Dupree, Julie - How should I read the passage I quoted? Bob directly states that Lobdell claims his 'deconversion' was "all of a sudden", when the whole article describes a process ranging from 1998 to 2005. That's <I>not</I> "just wak[ing] up one morning". It's the kind of misrepresentation that politicians (like, say, Obama) are rightfully called out on... at least, when they're on the <A HREF="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/euhs-esl012406.php" REL="nofollow">opposing side</A>.<BR/><BR/>Then there're passages like <I>...it is odd that Lobdell still writes about "religion," being that there can be no such thing for an atheist.</I> Is it stranger than, say, someone who used to be fervent believer in UFOs writing about the "UFO believer" phenomenon? The <I>phenomenon of belief</I> is real, even if the little green men aren't.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.com