tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post1705671162473369472..comments2024-03-27T11:16:36.951-07:00Comments on One Cʘsmos: Revelation and Other Babe MagnetsGagdad Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-80974464874222188662007-05-15T07:18:00.000-07:002007-05-15T07:18:00.000-07:00If I knew who John Adams was or cared, I probably ...If I knew who John Adams was or cared, I probably would agree with you.<BR/><BR/>I was never much for Glass or Cage either, though I think the first had a drop of true gift.<BR/><BR/>I consider that after Impressionism -> Stravinsky, 'art music' became more or less its own world; not terribly profitable (unlike the visual art world) and thus DID NOT fare as well. For the economic test is the real one I think, and I recall my fugues teacher groaning about how musicians just couldn't get enough grants here in the USA, if we'd only do it like they do in Europe...<BR/><BR/>Jazz and its seed are just too.. groovy, funky, freaky and sweet for any tin-pan minimalism to compete. <BR/><BR/>That's what I mean. Dunno what you're talking about :)Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-29412894961662106462007-05-15T06:02:00.000-07:002007-05-15T06:02:00.000-07:00fem sexpert:The "art" in question is based on a pa...fem sexpert:<BR/><BR/>The "art" in question is based on a paparazzi photograph of a pantyless Britney Spears indiscretely disembarking from an inebriated Paris Hilton's Ferrari.<BR/><BR/>Deep, huh?Stephen Macdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13474300559219020772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-74223640591314011542007-05-15T05:43:00.000-07:002007-05-15T05:43:00.000-07:00Annonymous said "I say it has fared no better. And...Annonymous said "I say it has fared no better. And please don't cite pop music as an alternative. "<BR/><BR/>What, Smashing Pumpkins aren't so smashing?<BR/><BR/>:OVan Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-50195270723742058702007-05-15T05:38:00.000-07:002007-05-15T05:38:00.000-07:00sigh. 'Exit' not exist.sigh. 'Exit' not exist.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-54330993265831112532007-05-15T05:36:00.000-07:002007-05-15T05:36:00.000-07:00Chloe Cumming said " There's a lot to be learned f...Chloe Cumming said " There's a lot to be learned from music about how to inhabit the present in the best way, the eternal present maybe... but interpreting it... it ought to be done right. Parts of you need to be awake. There are so many roads to ugly."<BR/><BR/>Probably much to that. Music, apart from needing to use valid harmonic scales, is unbound to anything other than what the composer chooses to hear. One difficulty that Visual and even Literary Art's have, is that they have many more constraints - there are definite things they need to look or seem like, need to resemble in order to extend.<BR/><BR/>River Cocytus said "It's not photorealism that is shallow but, like Van might've elucidated, the philosophy that they are conveying is not deep enough." and also "But to render the modern world, through the eyes of man, to have a heart for the beauty of the modern things? And not think them ugly? That is what it would take. "<BR/><BR/>I think those are probably the key points, more than any other. A photographer can take pictures of buildings by Frank Lloyd Wright... or of concrete walls and garbage dumps. The photo-realistic quality of the pictures isn't going to save them. A huge weight is going to be given to the content of the picture, but even there, there is some additional something that comes from the photographer, that can make even a concrete wall convey something more. Most of the painters today, of whatever school, are lacking in either, and most seem to think that their technique alone can not only make up for, but serve in place of, content and ... what... well, artistic talent. So frustrating when your logic makes that final circular connection! Maybe as Gagdad mentioned last week on religion being the hole in the ceiling (?) to escape the going round and round the room of existence - the spiritual is the only exist from the logics circular loop.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-83270564863226325632007-05-15T05:34:00.000-07:002007-05-15T05:34:00.000-07:00Gazings Balls-o.o-cricket chirped all nightfans ar...<A HREF="http://gobsmackedagain.blogspot.com/2007/05/gazing-balls.html" REL="nofollow">Gazings Balls</A><BR/><B>-o.o-</B><BR/><I>cricket chirped all night<BR/>fans are cheap imitators<BR/>buy no substitutes</I><BR/><B>-o.o-</B>Mizz Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02325435271880036807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-3166840512409560772007-05-15T05:21:00.000-07:002007-05-15T05:21:00.000-07:00Music has fared better? How do you account for the...Music has fared better? How do you account for the lionization of John Adams and his bullcorn minimalism?<BR/><BR/>I say it has fared no better. And please don't cite pop music as an alternative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-30593005451838446042007-05-15T03:35:00.000-07:002007-05-15T03:35:00.000-07:00I honestly believe that Van Gogh had a particular ...I honestly believe that Van Gogh had a particular artistic gift. People like that can paint an abstract work and you'll know what they are saying. <BR/><BR/>Others may have all the skill in the world, but cannot make their work 'click' - to me this is Picasso. Excellent at sketching, early paintings very well done... and then...? I'll give him that quite a few of the works were at least interesting, unlike much of what followed ('installments' for one... talk about a cheap way around rendering something... just set it up!)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ohhh man, its only a matter of time before a True Art Snob comes in and sets us straight.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, perhaps what is wrong with some of the photorealists is that they are not rendering something new, similar to comparing the old church fathers plus the apostles to the new writers of this age - even the ones who are 'biblical'.<BR/><BR/>It's not photorealism that is shallow but, like Van might've elucidated, the philosophy that they are conveying is not deep enough.<BR/><BR/>I wish I could get an example -- the difference can be so, so subtle. <BR/><BR/>This is going to be insufficient, but consider old Mike's choice to render the creation of Man? Not literal to the text but perfect in its visual poetry. A lesser man would have first drawn him breathing into adam and said, "Uh... huh... kind of.. gay..." Then drawn him breathing on him from a distance... and the symbolism wouldn't have worked.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, I think music has fared far better, probably for the reasons Spengler talked about, you just simply can't get away with Real Crap (tm) as easily. <BR/><BR/>But to render the modern world, through the eyes of man, to have a heart for the beauty of the modern things? And not think them ugly? That is what it would take.Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-12801922880724644522007-05-15T01:16:00.000-07:002007-05-15T01:16:00.000-07:00Van, you said:My own experience of art, tends to s...Van, you said:<BR/><BR/><I>My own experience of art, tends to show me that what I can put into 'rules' for 'Art', falls far short of what must be true. For example, the rule would be "Art must illustrate virtous scenes, be they heroic or domestic instances of virtue in action, in order to inspire, embody or instruct..." yada, yada, yada. Sounds great to me. But then I can be walking along minding my own business, catch sight of a Van Gogh (most of the others of his type leave me flat), and be stopped in my tracks.</I><BR/><BR/>I had some thoughts about all this in the night that are not very complete. <BR/><BR/>There's nothing wrong with reviving ideas about heroic subjects and nobility and all that stuff. But it seems that in those photorealist 'new masters' paintings, all they are is ideas floating on the surface. At worst, those paintings are just airless mechanical illustrations of those ideas, of those convictions (which is not a million miles away from what conceptual art aims to do... mughf!). And however noble those convictions might be, not much that's virtuous or helpful to human spirits is truly being <I>embodied</I> in those paintings.<BR/><BR/>Whereas something that we're after has been embodied by Van Gogh. Subject matter becomes a conduit for something. And old crusty paint becomes more than paint! And yes, it's not about 'that type of thing' or expressionism or the Van Gogh myth, it's something present and immediate in the thing itself.<BR/><BR/>Choice of subject matter is not ultimately the important decision... neither is choice of style or technique, although they are intertwined in a subtle way that MY art teachers were too vulgar to admit. Subtle things were 'boring' at art school. But that's a can of worms.<BR/><BR/>A painting is a physical thing, and it ought to be completely at ease and in touch with its physicality but simultaneously use that to get beyond. But maybe that's just me.<BR/><BR/>'Aliveness' is always something that I've aimed for in painting... <BR/><BR/>I had a silly thought... what would a painting with the qualities of Astral Weeks look like? That ramshackle quality about the music... it might be a little messy, but it would not be ugly. There's a lot to be learned from music about how to inhabit the present in the best way, the eternal present maybe... but interpreting it... it ought to be done right. Parts of you need to be awake. There are so many roads to ugly.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and I'm not personally all that preoccupied with getting chicks. So perhaps that frees me up for much indulgent pondering.Chloe Cumminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647179583231406538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-25590783882642068322007-05-14T21:17:00.000-07:002007-05-14T21:17:00.000-07:00If you truly want to know what a Philosophy is lik...If you truly want to know what a Philosophy is like, look at the Arts that are derived from it.<BR/><BR/>Compare John Adams, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson with Georges Danton, Jean-Paul Marat, Maximilien Robespierre.<BR/><BR/>Bach to Schoenberg. <BR/><BR/>Edmund Rostand to Samuel Beckett.<BR/><BR/>Alma-Tadema to Jackson Pollock. <BR/> <BR/><BR/>That'll give a fine illustration of two very different philosophic systems.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-52046534394297167252007-05-14T20:45:00.000-07:002007-05-14T20:45:00.000-07:00I think that Art is Visionary in that Art (whether...I think that Art is Visionary in that Art (whether it be visual, auditory or literary), is Philosophy (whether that be Religious or systematic), Illustrated.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58111988957084575392007-05-14T20:08:00.000-07:002007-05-14T20:08:00.000-07:00Bob,I have always thought that art is 'viosnary' r...Bob,<BR/>I have always thought that art is 'viosnary' rather than therapeutic. Pound called artists 'the antennae of the race' and there is an element of truth in this. Even Blake was obsessed with depicting his 'vision' and vision is essentially seeing what most people are incapable of comprehending; seeing the forest for the trees.<BR/>Good post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-38504497699230350112007-05-14T19:59:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:59:00.000-07:00anony: I'm simply referring to Spengler's article....anony: I'm simply referring to Spengler's article. If you want to read both of them you can take him to the task. If Bach did indeed say that, I can understand where he is coming from in some way having been a working musician for a time.<BR/><BR/>When you truly work the craft you aren't trying for 'Genius' so much as sufficiency, consistency and moments that sparkle every once-in-awhile. Once people hear you play enough they take for granted your skill and style. No less with Bach, no doubt.<BR/><BR/>And so, Bach, being a working musician was not allowed follies about his genius. <BR/><BR/>And Schoenberg learned the hard way that people don't want to listen to UGLY.Ephrem Antony Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032465992619034619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-24484819133507689142007-05-14T19:41:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:41:00.000-07:00River,but when Bach said that anyone who worked as...River,<BR/><BR/><I>but when Bach said that anyone who worked as hard as him could achieve what he did, he was right. </I><BR/><BR/>I doubt Bach said that. I think he believed in grace. But if you can provide an authoritative reference I'll offer that he was a humble man and still didn't believe that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-15123862601181812282007-05-14T19:28:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:28:00.000-07:00(Beer o'clock came a little late tonight)(Beer o'clock came a little late tonight)Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-17144322434930282092007-05-14T19:23:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:23:00.000-07:00">>I have always been struck by the inherent contr...">>I have always been struck by the inherent contradiction of loving and needing transcendence -- i.e., art -- while denying its possibility<<"<BR/><BR/>Everybody needs that whole worldview picture, and no one has it, but each imagines it whole, which leads to the paradox of zeno's forever crossing a room, and others seeing a whole through never more than small fragments. <BR/><BR/>Zeno's approach iswhere they spin one observation and extend it with assumptions, each of which fits neatly upon the last, one after andother and another, until reaching a conclusion which is absurd but 'logical' (in appearance only - big surprise).<BR/>I'm reminded of Zeno's paradoxes, and those who are taken with them. He would propose that in walking to cross a room you would halve the distance in a certain number of steps, correct? sure. Which would leave less room to cross, right? uh-huh, Then you halve the remaining distance, correct? ok. Then halve the remaining distance? sure... each time the distance shrinks, and you are still halving the distance? yeah...So, in halving the distance, there will always be some distance remaining, no matter how tiny, that remains to be halved, and so as you attempt to cross the room, you will forever be trapped in halving the remaining distance, thus never reaching the other side of the room!<BR/>Oh MY!<BR/><BR/>This group paints their image of the world, from one image to the next, brooking no gaps, refusing to entertain the possibility that there could be a sequence missing. The image they build and construct, they assume that there must be a full picture, and that it will follow from their assumptions, and if that picture is stunted and deformed, it is of no real concern to them - they have a full picture - and they are trapped and bound by their word picture paradox.<BR/><BR/>The second group senses that there is a whole picture, is frustrated by their gaps in understanding, but taking pleasure in what they do see, have no difficulty concluding that what they don't see, will be filled in, with or without their awareness. Somewhat as if a patchy but thick fog were to roll in, obscuring sections of a cathedral from view. The viewer may see the entrance doors, perhaps stain glass above, sections of the soaring structure arching upwards, the bell tower... and though there are large sections missing from view, they trust the picture they have is complete, though they do not know the details. <BR/><BR/>This is what I see as legitimate faith. The structure seen is sound. It is orderly, it flows, because I don't see it complete does not fill me with anxiety over the missing gaps, as if, if I don't know their every detail, they can not exist, or that I somehow can not trust that they exist.<BR/><BR/>The first see's a 'complete' structure, twisted and deformed into completeness, but with no gaps!, and because there are no gaps, they proclaim it superior to those with vast gaps in their world picture.<BR/><BR/>The second glimpses pieces of the whole, understands that they are parts of a whole, and 'trusts' that the structure exists, is whole, continues in flowing grace and beauty to a completness guessed at, but not seen. This person is inspired by what they do see, and trusts that the complete structure does exist, and is absolutely baffled at the other's satisfaction with their grotesque but gapless figuration.Van Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08470413719262297062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-83324274375934927932007-05-14T19:20:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:20:00.000-07:00By the way, I would definitely recommend reading t...By the way, I would definitely recommend reading the Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware before tackling Lossky. A wonderful book.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-29760311303162293652007-05-14T19:16:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:16:00.000-07:00Walt:The McGinn is very scholarly theology, wherea...Walt:<BR/><BR/>The McGinn is very scholarly theology, whereas the Lossky is very mystical theology. Basic East-West distinction. Lossky is more challenging, since he's coming from a place beyond thought, whereas McGinn is using thought to ascend to the beyond-thought. In a sense, K-->O vs. O-->K.Gagdad Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249005793605006679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-58680236631030401232007-05-14T19:00:00.000-07:002007-05-14T19:00:00.000-07:00Bookish things -A couple of months ago, one of the...Bookish things -<BR/><BR/>A couple of months ago, one of the Coons mentioned reading Lost Christianity, by Jacob Needleman, and while I had read it 20 years ago, picked up a new copy. Once again, this blog really helped me understand it in a new way. Lots of useful distinctions in there.<BR/><BR/>Bob, I have been hesitant to tackle Vladamir Lossky's book, and wondered whether it was one you'd suggest, and I got the answer on your sidebar.<BR/><BR/>But there was a 4-volume set by Bernard McGinn on the History of Christian Mysticism, as I recall; you had it on your sidebar last January (?) and we almost bought it, and then you removed it. Do you still recommend it, or was there something that caused you to remove it so quickly?walthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01388218390016612051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-63619540889130879102007-05-14T18:21:00.000-07:002007-05-14T18:21:00.000-07:00Bob, you wrote about yourself today, "I found tha...Bob, you wrote about yourself today, "I found that I could not possibly devote myself to one discipline (let alone, one school of psychology) in such a way that it could adequately coontain the Gagdad spirit."<BR/><BR/>And of course your writing is absorbed by Coons that are very different, and practicing various disciplines as well. By describing O from multiple angles, even within one post (like today's), I never get the "error" of mis-taking the aspect for the Whole. So the approach you are using becomes like a rudder for us, so we can keep heading up-stream in our own ways.<BR/><BR/>Also: it would have been really easy to wrap this post up with something ONLY clever. But the parting thought was, "...scripture and revelation...is a theurgent memorandum from ourSelf to ourself, designed for that purpose." The key words of that statement run deep.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, once again.walthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01388218390016612051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-1587094126879999312007-05-14T18:07:00.000-07:002007-05-14T18:07:00.000-07:00Dilys, those articles were really good.I've been l...Dilys, those articles were really good.<BR/><BR/>I've been looking at Grecian ruins online and even in their ruined state, they are breathtaking. I wish I knew how to link here in comments, but I don't know the HTML.<BR/><BR/>http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Hproject/Argos/Argos01-00.html<BR/><BR/>http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Hproject/hProjectxx.html<BR/><BR/>http://www.losttrails.com/pages/Hproject/hProjectxx.html<BR/><BR/>There's much, much more at the site. I don't know anything about art, but I wish I could have seen these in their prime.<BR/><BR/>"Men find it threatening, yet sexy."<BR/><BR/>I think most normal people find it gross. Kind of like the cheez whiz(TM) house or the alphabet formed out of cr*p by that "chocolate Jesus" dude.Susannahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16381272662339466736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-62794260292825794152007-05-14T17:27:00.000-07:002007-05-14T17:27:00.000-07:00gayswomenchildrenpeople of colorNUKE A NINE-YEAR-O...<I>gays<BR/>women<BR/>children<BR/>people of color</I><BR/><BR/><B>NUKE A NINE-YEAR-OLD BLACK LESBIAN FOR JESUS</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-65091210082512042502007-05-14T17:26:00.000-07:002007-05-14T17:26:00.000-07:00I suspect that these people ultimately feast on th...<I>I suspect that these people ultimately feast on the pure sensual aesthetics that art and culture have to offer. </I><BR/><BR/>I nearly wrote of my co-op'ers as a certain sort of "energy vampires" for it seemed their needs were endless and they simply sucked all the real joy and life out of art.Joan of Argghh!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14729682908266300507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-60490816337978449372007-05-14T17:15:00.000-07:002007-05-14T17:15:00.000-07:00>>I have always been struck by the inherent contra...>>I have always been struck by the inherent contradiction of loving and needing transcendence -- i.e., art -- while denying its possibility<<<BR/><BR/>Caveat - what I say here is in no way a judgment of Bob's father-in-law who I obviously do not know and thus whose character I can't validly assess. Obviously there are good and decent people with a spiritual inclination that they would not, for a variety of cultural, sociological factors, label as such.<BR/><BR/>Can say this, however - some of the worst people I've ever known were highly "cultured", including one who was consciously and with great refinement dedicated to evil. <BR/><BR/>Such people are "real" enough to have actually created something of their own exaggerated collective archetype for public consumption: Hannibal Lector, Dr. Evil (white gloves, cat, etc.), and just about every antagonist/guilty party to appear on the Columbo tv series. The list goes on.<BR/><BR/>But as exaggerated as the archetype may be, these people I have encountered have been seriously dead at the core. I have doubts as to whether they "love" the transcendence transmitted through art, or if they even recognize it. They may "need" transcendence and be moth-to-the flame attracted to it without understanding why - this in the manner of the darkness' eternal attraction to the Light. <BR/><BR/>I suspect that these people ultimately feast on the pure sensual aesthetics that art and culture have to offer. They would, in fact, feast on aesthetics even more vigorously than would the committed spiritual pilgrim simply because they need something to fill the vacuum. The irony, of course, is that were they to reach the endpoint of their spirit-less aim, they would destroy all order and symmetry, the framework of aesthetics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8580258.post-4656781431798125262007-05-14T16:29:00.000-07:002007-05-14T16:29:00.000-07:00Dilys has all the really cool links. Just.Awesome....Dilys has all the really cool links. Just.Awesome.Stuff!<BR/><BR/>I was just today asked why I quit the art co-op in this small, liberal arts college town. <BR/>"Because of the whining," was my reply. So many whiny artists; victims of "the man" and "sofa art."<BR/><BR/>Everybody supposedly loved the audacity of these artists, but nobody wanted it hanging in their living room. <BR/><BR/>My work sold well enough, but the "art community" is bat-crazy. It was my first foray into the Dark Night of the Creative Soul. Brrr!Joan of Argghh!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14729682908266300507noreply@blogger.com