Wednesday, October 27, 2010

On Staying Open For Isness

As we mentioned a few posts back, one provocative way of looking at It is to say that the Protestant rebellion led directly to the disaster of the secular left. This is one of Borella's central points in his Sense of the Supernatural.

The book description says that for the last three centuries -- or ever since the scientific revolution -- "Christian philosophers and theologians tried to preserve God's transcendence by denying any continuity between the natural and the supernatural. In so doing they inadvertently played into the hands of those who wanted to push God to the margins, or even to deny him altogether. The result was to lay the foundations of modernism, as well as secular humanism."

If I am not mistaken, this was Kant's main concern -- that science would eclipse faith -- so he "resolved" the problem by suggesting that science not only dealt with phenomena or appearances (or maya), but that these phenomena had no intrinsic reality. Rather, they were only representations of the nervous system. Thus, he severed the link between mind and reality, since all we could ever really know were species-bound forms of our own sensibility. (One again thinks of Escher's drawing of the hand drawing the hand drawing itself.)

Reality, the noumena, the thing-in-itself, becomes an absolutely closed book. The result is, in Whitehead's words -- to be honest, I just wasted about fifteen minutes unsuccessfully attempting to track down the exact quote -- something to the effect of an epistemology with a cloud on one side and a dream on the other. Science deals with the dream, while religion deals with the cloud.

Thanks, Manny! Way to save religion!

The whole point of religion is that it discloses transcendent and perennial truths. Indeed, I would call it the science of the noumenon (and note that noumenon cannot be plural, or "noumena," as Kant implied).

In contrast, science does indeed describe phenomena, except that the phenomena are properties of real objects, not just the dream-forms of our nervous system.

This is completely consistent with both the Judeo-Christian tradition and with Vedanta, the latter of which is often mischaracterized as a metaphysic that doesn't regard the world as "real." Undoubtedly there are vulgar forms of Vedanta that do this, just as there are vulgar forms of Christianity that deny free will and horizontal causation.

But the whole point of the maya principle is that the world is real, just not ultimately real. Rather, it is a prolongation, or "projection," so to speak, of the deeper/higher reality. To think of maya as "pure illusion" would be to make Kant's mistake, and sever the world from its source and Principle.

Kant was of course preceded by Luther, who severed reason and faith, and therefore knowledge and will, through his theory of justification by faith alone.

Thus, if faith is a matter of will, it doesn't matter if you don't understand what you are willing yourself to believe, so long as you believe it. This absurd doctrine has been the source of the Jesus Willies in more than a few intelligent people, who are not enthusiastic about the idea of ignoring and devaluing the brains God gave them.

Luther's metaphysic completely eliminates the (↑) from the (↓↑). But in so doing, he really eliminates real grace altogether, which is actually a circular (or spiraling) process, as described yesterday. In the last analysis, our aspiration is God's inspiration, so that even faith is (obviously) a gift of the Spirit, and our own perfection of that gift is itself another gift.

As Borella describes it, without the divine assistance of grace (↓), "no one can raise the natural powers of the soul to the supernatural level of a true and consistent adherence to faith. This grace assists the intellect in the act by which it grasps revealed truths, and assists the will in the act by which it desires that to which the intellect applies itself."

Again, it is circular, so to participate in it is to participate in the life of a kind of trinitarian circle of emanation and return, or "flowing forth" and "flowing back." It is not just a static assent to the statistically improbable or frankly absurd.

Therefore, through participation in this virtuous circle of (↓↑), "habitual grace effects a real change in our soul, a change by which our very being is opened up to the awareness of supernatural realities." The effect of grace is to actualize and give form to "the soul's capacity to be receptive to the spiritual or supernatural," or what I symbolize (o).

It seems almost silly to have to point out that it's not either/or, i.e., damned or saved, as believed by so many evangelicals. Rather, it is a path, a journey, a Way.

Yes, we are fallen, but our essence nevertheless remains supernatural in a multitude of ways, both subtle and obvious. "And unless the believer experiences within his being, by virtue of a truly spiritual instinct, a kind of connaturality with the world of faith, how can this [higher] world be other than totally alien?"

This is an excellent question, for it goes to Luther's idea that we must simply assent to an absurdity that we do not understand, as opposed to cultivating our deep intuition that the higher world is our proper home.

"But God cannot refuse to enlighten the heart which is open to grace, that is, to grant to a human being some minimum of intelligibility in the act of faith, lacking which no progress of belief, either in thought or will, would have any meaning.

"Be that as it may, this initial grace [↓] of the sense of the supernatural is only granted to the extent that an individual's heart is open [o] and receptive [---]. And therefore it can be lost, either in part or totally, in proportion to the degree that the human heart closes and hardens" (Borella; pneumaticons added by El Bob Gagdad).

61 Comments:

Blogger Northern Bandit said...

It seems almost silly to have to point out that it's not either/or, i.e., damned or saved, as believed by so many evangelicals. Rather, it is a path, a journey, a Way.

This is one of those areas where I have difficulty fully understanding the Raccoon position. I don't know about evangelicals, but the Catholic Church most assuredly holds salvation/damnation as a core doctrine, and to deny doctrine at this level (I am told by my Vatican friend) is to deny the faith. Well that's fine -- Raccoons are not equivalent to Catholics of course. However there is a strong Christian element at work here... yet I get the feeling it's often in opposition to not just evangelical but Christian core belief.

Like Rick the other day, I'm sure this is because I just don't yet understand the nature of the integration between Christian and Raccoon thought. Any help here would be much appreciated.

10/27/2010 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

I generally go with whatever works, and I know that the Catholic Church works. So do Protestant churches. They are functional as far as I can tell and as far as personal reports have provided information to me.

Intuition tells me that universal reconciliation must be a possibility.

That being said, evil definitely exists and is a general problem of creation. Of course, I also accept reincarnation as a strong probability. I think I understand enough about consiousness to be dangerous.

But then, I couldn't tell you what the "Racoon" position is.

I stick with Christianity (Presbyterian these days) because it works for me. I could also go with Orthodoxy or Roman Catholocism and be just as content.

10/27/2010 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

There is no "Raccoon position," since -- and it pains me to have to say this -- Raccoonism is just an inside joke among Raccoons. As for NB, it sounds like he's never gone to confession.

10/27/2010 09:30:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And whether Protestantism "works" is an entirely separate question. God recognizes his own in spite of themselves.

10/27/2010 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Kurt said...

This is the second time you've played this record for us, amigo; Protestantism led directly to secular humanism. This is a tremendous over-simplification which does not address the incredibly degraded condition of the Renaissance Catholic Church which engendered the Protestant reaction, nor does it mention the incredible outpouring of science, commerce, industry, art and political freedom which directly resulted from that reaction. Let us consider the condition of Spain in the 19th century which remained within the Catholic fold, and England, which rejected it. Spain was a deflated, demoralized and degraded shell of its former glory. England was busy being the greatest country in the world. With the Protestant revolution, Man started to become free to think for themselves. Many have thought themselves off a cliff, it is true, but at least it was their own choice to do so. What then, better that we should have paid our indulgences, said our prayers in a language we didn't understand and never held The Bible in our own hands? There are many, many reasons to defend and admire the Catholic Church, Bob. But blaming Luther for the current degraded state of western civilization is a bit of a stretch, even for this former Catholic.

10/27/2010 09:45:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

I used to believe all that.

10/27/2010 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

yet I get the feeling it's often in opposition to not just evangelical but Christian core belief.

*sigh*

Then you don't get it.

10/27/2010 10:00:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

As for NB, it sounds like he's never gone to confession

Do bartenders count?

Otherwise you have to actually become a Catholic first, then come the Hail Marys.

10/27/2010 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Then you don't get it.

Well perhaps not. I mean, this is a blog after all, not a church. "Not getting" OC isn't the same as not getting (in my case) my Christian faith. Nonetheless I've been reading OC for quite a while with great interest, even though I confess I don't always understand every post perfectly.

10/27/2010 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

And just as a sidebar, I personally find Luther to be an immensely unappealing fellow on virtually every level. Doesn't automatically make him wrong, but I just don't relate to the guy.

10/27/2010 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger black hole said...

Well, NB and others, we see ample evidence that doctrines produce contention.

And useless contention at that.

That is why there is no Raccoon "position." The minute you take a "position" you've blown the show.

However, Bob does have a Raccoon "requirement" and that is you don't disagree with him. Not even a leeeeetle beeet.

Why? You tell me...

So, NB, Kurt, and myself, we ain't gonna be jumped into the litter, because we just committed the fundamental sin. We are not buying the post.

Well I bought this one, but I haven't bought certain others in the past.

NB was in, but now he's out.

Julie and Van are in, and there they will stay because they know better than to talk back.

So, if you want to stay better put on your oven mitts. It's gonna get hot in the kitchen.

10/27/2010 10:09:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Julie and Van are in, and there they will stay because they know better than to talk back.

*snorfle*

10/27/2010 10:13:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Well to be clear I didn't say that the post was in any way "wrong", just that I didn't quite get it since it seemed to me to be in conflict with fundamental Christian doctrine (the operative words being "seemed to me"). I then requested clarification/help in the matter.

That is all.

10/27/2010 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Here's an official raccoon position: When it's chilly outside, it's good to be furry.

10/27/2010 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

"Thanks, Manny! Way to save religion!"

No kiddin'.

Damned dork.

10/27/2010 10:26:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Back to the initial question, NB, see also Dante.

Re. salvation, is the marriage complete when the wedding vows have been said? Is salvation complete just because one professes belief?

10/27/2010 10:31:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

julie:

That's the sort of clarification I was looking for. If that's what Bob meant then I'm totally on board. I just wasn't clear about the "damned or saved, as believed by so many evangelicals" part. I think I'm getting the whole "process" angle a little better now though... and marriage is a great analogy.

10/27/2010 10:37:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

There are extreme (to me) Protestant sects which make salvation sound like a cross between winning the lottery and submitting to Allah.

10/27/2010 10:46:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

I've been putting off the whole conversion process -- 2011 may be the right year. I like the local Catholic priest -- he told me if we don't take our kid to mass regularly and do all the other stuff he won't baptize a second one. Not a lot of touchy-feely New Age stuff there.

10/27/2010 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger julie said...

Glad to help. Just try to remember, this isn't about some official position or doctrine. Either it's true or it isn't. I agree with Bob to the extent that he speaks truth; however, I know truth by my own experience.

There is no Raccoon Position. There are just people, who happen to be looking at (and moving toward) the same Object - even if they see it from opposing perspectives.

10/27/2010 10:51:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

I grew up in a Lutheran church. I had to take Luther classes. At some point, I realized that Luther was, quite possbily, an idiot.

And yes, there were (and always are) excesses and problems in the Catholic Church.

England became a world power, in part, because it was ruled by Cromwell for a period. Cromwell, for all his flaws, such as the insanity of the Irish adventure, was essentailly a military and political genius. England became a world leader because of it's navy and it's trade.

Spain was ruled by Charles II (and his ancestors). Charles II was an inbred idiot.

10/27/2010 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

NB says:

"I've been putting off the whole conversion process -- 2011 may be the right year. I like the local Catholic priest -- he told me if we don't take our kid to mass regularly and do all the other stuff he won't baptize a second one."

Just tell him that if he won't do the baptism, you'll have a female Episcopal bishop do it instead.

That should get his attention.

10/27/2010 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Heh.

I like the idea of a church with a bit of muscle behind it. Ever been to a Unitarian service? Right -- opposite of that, pretty much.

10/27/2010 11:03:00 AM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

julie:

I hear you re the whole "position" thing. Like I said, I get that this is basically a blog and not some formal... whatever.

I also get the whole "inside joke" premise (even if I'm not an insider). I must say though that if you put all the posts together there is a large body of concrete thought and observations about which one can discourse and, yes, disagree. In my case as with most non-trolls who come here I find the overwhelming majority of OC content to be highly edifying. Not flattery, just fact.

That said, I am absolutely hip to the "people moving toward an Object" and seeing it with slightly different perspectives. That + the humor pretty much sums up OC.

10/27/2010 11:08:00 AM  
Blogger sehoy said...

"And whether Protestantism "works" is an entirely separate question. God recognizes his own in spite of themselves."

Boy is that the truth, and for it, I am grateful.

Interesting sidenote: my son had for his fourth grade Catholic catechism teacher in Germany, a woman named Frau Luther, a direct decendant of Martin Luther. She, like me was a revert to Catholicm :D. It just took her several centuries to get there.

I'm lifting your last two posts to help me with my study of the seven sacraments this week. I'm thinking some of it will get passed on to the CCD class.

10/27/2010 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger Kurt said...

Folks, it's all about liberty - the freedom to make the decisions that are within your power and the responsibility to accept the consequences of those decisions. The Protestant revolution was essentially a movement towards liberty and away from authoritarianism. Whether we 'like' Luther, Calvin, or whomever is beside the point. Moving towards liberty - in this case spiritual but directly linked with movements towards political and economic liberty - was the essential gift of the Protestant revolution.

10/27/2010 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Kurt said "Let us consider the condition of Spain in the 19th century which remained within the Catholic fold, and England, which rejected it."

You can, but you'd do better to consider the political structure of Spain in any century, and England which rejected it.

10/27/2010 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

Gagdad said "I personally find Luther to be an immensely unappealing fellow on virtually every level."

He compared Aristotle to 'lice & vermin'... 'nuff said.

10/27/2010 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

bh grunted "Julie and Van are in..."

Julie! We're the 'Cool Kids'! bh grunted so! Woo-hoo!!!

10/27/2010 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

JP said "England became a world leader because of it's navy and it's trade."

Not much different than the materialists 'location and diseases' argument.

England developed it's navy, because of it's trade, because of it's (relative) freedoms, and became a world power because of how well England put them into practice.

"England became a world power, in part, because it was ruled by Cromwell for a period."

Cromwell came after Elizabeth, during whose reign those ideas gained clarity and bloomed and during which time the English decided to settle in North America (the name 'Virginia' has a meaning).

10/27/2010 12:08:00 PM  
Blogger Northern Bandit said...

Totally OT, but minutes after I was noodling around here getting on people's nerves etc I got a phone call: we just landed a truly massive (global) customer for our new little (well, not so little now) startup.

Damn I'm happy! Think I'll build a cancer wing in 2017. Off to airport.

BTW julie: the coonskin cap on the little guy was super-adorable!

10/27/2010 12:12:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Coongratulations NB!

10/27/2010 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

I'm talking about the World Leader of the High Culture of Western Civilization, Van. Not about "guns, germs, and steel."

So, we can look to the following "world powers" in the West from the 15th Century onward:

Venice (15th Century)
Portugal (France Loses) (1516)
The Dutch (Spain Loses)(1609)
Britain (France Loses)(1714)
Britain (France Loese)(1815)
U.S. (Germany Loses)(1945)

The naval/trade power always wins. The land-based continental power always loses.

10/27/2010 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

JP said "The naval/trade power always wins. The land-based continental power always loses."

How about:

U.S. Cold War (USSR loses)(1992)

Air Force/trade won.

We'll see how the next one, likely involving electronic data & perhaps Space based foces and hopefully Trade works out.

Or how does that apply to,

Rome Punic War(s) (Carthage lost)(241 BC)

Republicanism/trade

Carthage was the naval power... Rome copied their ships, but devised a method to enable them to fight essentially land battles, ship to ship.

It's not the particulars and mechanics that determines who wins, but the ideas and cohesion behind them, which are driven by the relative freedom of thought and purpose present - which is also driven by the philosophy and metaphysics/Religion of the culture.

Ships, Planes, Commerce mean didly squat before that.

Oh, and here's one other:

U.S. Revolutionary War (Great Britain loses) (1783)

Guess who wasn't a naval power, or a mercantile power?

"The naval/trade power always wins. The land-based continental power always loses."

... and of course it'd be too selective of me to leave Vietnam out. My position, viewed with a relative skew, still holds... your's however, I think has to go fish.

10/27/2010 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

The revolutionary war, while a major victory for the U.S. was not a major loss for England. It remained a world power throughout the next two centuries. It is still a great power, although it is in decline.

Everything since WWII has been a series of cabinet wars.

There has been no general war since WWII.

The U.S. is currently undergoing the delegitimation stage as World Leader.

There's a new macrodecision phase coming up in 2040 or so when the next world leader will be chosen.

Hopefully we don't have another general war because that would involve the use of nuclear weapons.

The problem with recent history is that instead of enjoying it's status as world leader, the U.S. instantly had to face a new land-based challenger, the U.S.S.R., which lost in 1989. The U.S.A. had no interest in fighting another general war after WWII.

The U.S. has been unchallenged world leader since then.

The first Iraq War is an excellend example of a world leader exercising it's power.

The current moras in Afghanistan is a good example of delegitimation.

10/27/2010 01:13:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Lileks:

But let’s say we finally get together, Federation-wise, with other civilizations, and we’re the only ones with music.

We would
instantly become the priest class for the galaxy.

10/27/2010 01:32:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

JP, I somewhat agree with your statement on U.S. power. It IS time for the U.S. to step back a little, take its place as a superpower, but not a hyperpower, among the world's nations.

That means soon being roughly on par with China and India.

The world can be managed as an oligarchy under rule of law from an effective tribunal of strong nations.

Under such a regime the U.S. will regain its position of honor as the land where a culture of excellence and very high moral standards hold sway. We can get our virtue returned to us.

We lose the smudge of despotic mud clinging to us, and shine.

OR: there is still a window of time in which the U.S. can use its military and trade dominance to gobble up as much world territory as it can get (and that would be most of it), then cow India and China into submission. In ten years we won't be able to do that. A decision should be made within two years as to whether a new Empire is the right road. At the very least some detailed planning could be carried out.

It doesn't matter what I want personally. The soul of the nation must carry the day.

10/27/2010 01:56:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

JP said “...was not a major loss for...”

Heh, do you prefer the cherries you pick, served flambé' or ala mode?

The fact that Naval power has been prevalent among 'world class' powers... since the 15th century... has less to do with navies, than with the role which the current levels of technological achievement have up to now given naval navigation to play in trade, transport and battle... as the ability of aircraft and electronic delivery improves, 'Naval Power' begins to go the way of the Freight Train... useful, necessary even, but no determinate of success.

What actually matters is a societies ability to initiate, process and organize ideas into manipulating the materials needed to produce and/or secure wealth, alliances and military power in a manner best suited to 'success', which is what Alexander, Scipio, Wellington... and so forth, understood.

You are trying to tie “World Power” status to some intrinsic value inherent in naval power... the data is correlative, not causative, and it doesn't matter much whether you are looking at local conflicts or global hegemony.

Materials and modes are the playthings of philosophy... and those who miss the lesson, from Darius to Hannibal to Adolf... to (if we're not very careful) Uncle Sam, may not live to regret it.

The sky’s the limit... or your limitation.

10/27/2010 02:03:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

bh grunted "The world can be managed as an oligarchy under rule of law from an effective tribunal of strong nations."

I suggest kaopectate.

10/27/2010 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger JP said...

Naval power isn't as relevant these days because you have rockets and missiles. The closest thing you have to capital ships these days are submarines. Which are somewhat hard to hit with cruise missiles.

In prior eras, naval power, being the cutting edge of technology, was quite important to keeping the trade routes open.

We also have air transport and air power these days, which has also lessened the importance of naval power.

The next rollout in the Dentian innovation wave is going to be the second round of the information revolution, the second "boom" of the Internet revoution so to speak. I'm not sure what the rising wave is. Biotechnology, perhaps.

We are in the middle of the k-cycle winter / innovation wave bust right now. It might probably take until 2025 to work through this. We will then get the new era of biotech (or whatever the new developing tech is) along with a new boom in the information tech. Until it's over, social stress and general xenophobia will rise.

The importance of standing armies and navies appears to be declining.

Things seem to be going ok right now, all things considered.

The biggest problem in the world right now is probably Pakistan with China running behind it. It will be interesting to see how those issues resolve.

10/27/2010 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger black hole said...

Van Wrote:

"What actually matters is a societies ability to initiate, process and organize ideas into manipulating the materials needed to produce and/or secure wealth, alliances and military power."

This hat trick is being done all over the globe. Asia has caught on to it, man. It has caught on to it BIG.

Which is why being numero uno is going to require something new, somthing special. Perhaps biotechology, as JP suggests.

As far as the importance of attitudes, ideas, and spiritual paths, on the national level these are important inasmuch as they inspire confidence, optimism, and enthusiasm. These are the qualities needed in the 21st century.

Doesn't matter if Buddha, Vishnu, or Jesus is in charge. They all work fine if the will to succeed is there.

10/27/2010 03:49:00 PM  
Blogger ge said...

last hope for Demon rats?


wv=
'obstiont'
ok i admit it

10/27/2010 03:54:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

Thus, if faith is a matter of will, it doesn't matter if you don't understand what you are willing yourself to believe, so long as you believe it.

I'm not arguing with you.

However, I will point out a sort of common misunderstanding about faith.

Faith is worthless. Faith is nothing in and of itself. The object of faith is what makes it of any value. Justification by faith in the finished work of Christ delivers people from the penalty and the power of sin. It is, paradoxically, both a position and a process.

Many, both Catholic and protestant, suffer because they do not recognize the former. Others, mostly evangelicals, agonize because they fail to recognize the latter.

Whether Luther was a nice guy or not is beside the point. Whether he was right in all that he espoused is beside the point. Luther re-discovered and courageously -- possibly pigheadedly stood up for the truth that Christ alone is sufficient to release humanity from its depravity. If a man is willing to trust Him.

Reason and intellect are fine. Without Christ, they lead straight where they have always led -- to chaos, tyranny and destruction.

10/27/2010 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Question. Where does the third Person fit in there?

10/27/2010 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Rick said...

Between the second and the fourth.

10/27/2010 06:27:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

And five is right out.

10/27/2010 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

Science has finally figured it out: liberalism is a birth defect.

Now that it can be eliminated in the womb, I wonder if that will influence their position on abortion?

10/27/2010 06:41:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

However, the, subjects were only more likely to have leanings to the left if they were also socially active during adolescence.

Sheeple?

One more good reason to keep your kids out of public schools, I guess.

10/27/2010 06:49:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

OT, I thought this was kind of cool:
A Mystic Monk gives his mother Communion at his first Mass.

You can buy their coffee here. It's fantastic, and makes good gifts, what with the holidays coming up.

10/27/2010 07:03:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

JP said "Naval power isn't as relevant these days because ...”

Yeah... same story happened with big rocks, sharp rocks, clubs, spears, axes, bronze swords, iron swords, steel swords, oliphants, triremes, galleys, man-o-wars, battleships, Fokker's, B-17's, B-52's, Aircraft Carriers, V2's, Titan's, Apollo's, Cruise Missles, Star Wars... and on and on and ever on.

Just momentary particulars, the constant is as I've already said, and philosophical & spiritual guidance and coherence drives and will continue to drive it. In any meaningful long run, nationality, geography, guns, germs or steel are meaningless in the face of it.

"We are in the middle of the k-cycle winter / innovation wave bust right now."

ehuhhh... ok... does that go with a green, orange or blueberry mix on the spiral downamics scale?

Sorry, but come on....

10/27/2010 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Heh, OT, but a flip summation from The Gunslinger:
Short summary of every Jewish holiday:

They tried to kill us.

We won.

Let's eat.


Just got my phunny bone.

wv:sistshme
Gotta be yiddish for something.

10/27/2010 07:52:00 PM  
Blogger Gagdad Bob said...

One more, based on my personal experience:

Where do you want to go for breakfast?

10/27/2010 07:58:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Van - wonky link.

10/27/2010 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Van said...

Oops... thanks

10/27/2010 08:54:00 PM  
Blogger julie said...

Oh, that Gunslinger. See, it's a good thing you fixed it 'cuz I was thinking of Stephen King's, except I was pretty sure the Jews never made it into the story...

Also, forgot to say earlier, phunny indeed :)

10/27/2010 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger mushroom said...

Third Person -- didn't mean to ignore Him -- I'm not up on Luther's Pneumatology.

The Holy Spirit doesn't get much mention in the Law and the Prophets -- yes, God is a Spirit, but there's no direct contact.

Following Christ's Ascension, the Holy Spirit is Large and in Charge. Something obviously had changed.

Jesus said, When I go, I will send you another Paraclete to be with you. The 'another' does not indicate a different kind of Helper, but another of the same kind. In other words, as Jesus had been with the Disciples to guide and teach them, so the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ would come to guide and teach those who followed afterward.

The Spirit's job is to testify of Christ. He convinces the world of the truth with regard to sin, righteousness, and judgment. Reading through John 14-16, and in the context of my prior post, that seems to mean mostly making us aware of the why and how of Christ's life, death, and resurrection -- i.e., directing our faith to the correct Object.

10/27/2010 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger sehoy said...

The love between God the Father and God the Son is so great and so real and so fruitful that it becomes a third Person, God the Holy Spirit. It's relationship.

Father, mother, and child is a representation of this relationship.

10/28/2010 04:14:00 AM  
Blogger USS Ben USN (Ret) said...

This is a very interesting post, Bob.
Like Meister Eickert's writings it's also easy to take the wrong way depending on what you brought wit ya.

In my case I sometimes gotta remind myself to forget what I think I gno when I come to OC

Oddly enough, today ain't one of those days where I initially ask myself "what did Bob say? What did he not say?" And, "when will I be fluent in jive?"

Could be because I'm not a fan of Luther either, but even when I was protestant I wasn't much of one, which struck me as peculiar at the time.

Anyways, Bob did say "one provocative way to look at it..." so there is that.
I reckon I like provocative 'cause it gets me thinking n' coontemplatin' more (or at a higher level)...whether I happen to feel like a provocatee or a provocateur.

Wish I could stick arond longer and attempt to be more vaguely clear, but I'll hafta take the risk that I'll be misunderstood, or not.

Speakin' of which, I'm not a fan of Calvin either. (Ducks)

10/28/2010 04:48:00 AM  
Blogger Rick said...

What Ben said.
Especially about provacative being (in my case, plenty of times) helpful.

10/28/2010 04:57:00 AM  
Blogger JP said...

Van says:

""We are in the middle of the k-cycle winter / innovation wave bust right now."

ehuhhh... ok... does that go with a green, orange or blueberry mix on the spiral downamics scale?

Sorry, but come on...."

Feel free to argue with Mike Alexander over at the chatboards at www.fourthturning.com.

He's the one who writes books about this stuff.

I just use him to inform my investment and speculation based on the fact that we are in a secular bear market where equities underperform for say, 20 years or so. Kind of like the last 10, with negative 2% annualized returns.

You can also look up the information at crestmontresearch.com.

10/28/2010 06:22:00 AM  
Blogger Van said...

JP said "Feel free to argue with Mike Alexander over at the chatboards at www.fourthturning.com"

Ah... The Fourth Turning, got it. No clue who Mike Alexander is, but I saw the authors on Book-TV a few years ago, read parts of the book, haven’t been able to finish it yet, but they do have some very interesting points to make.

I just really... really... dislike it when people come up with schlocky new terms for simple facts – too often they are substituted for, and eventually discard, the original concepts and ideas that were initially there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have their uses... but ... arghhh.

10/28/2010 06:35:00 AM  

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